edward mason

Tasar Single handed

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just an update--I was able to rig mast rotation lines to avoid going forward after each tack.I considered leaving the boom centered but Bethwaite claims 25% (I think) increase in efficiency over a non-rotating system and I could definitely tell the difference once I got the bugs worked out. Next step-- a launch and retrieve system for the jib that can be operated from the helm position.

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25% increase in efficiency on a reach when you're trying to pull hi pressure differentials.

Only 5-10% reduction in drag closehauled, because of #1 much smaller LE radius and #2, masthead/tip hooking to windward.

But yes, you feel it, no question.

                Jb

 

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 12:12 AM, edward mason said:

Next step-- a launch and retrieve system for the jib that can be operated from the helm position.

Isn't a roller-furler the obvious answer, assuming Mr B isn't appalled at the thought? Plenty of pics of Tasars using them, on the 'net.

$_75.JPG

I rigged a furler on my dinghy (not a Tasar), because I rarely have a crew...it is so great being free to reduce sail area by a third in a few seconds.

Next stop is the remotely-launched kite...quite a lot more complicated! I've given up on the traditional symmetric...sprit beats pole, for ease of use.

I'm hoping it's worth it, doubling the sail area to 300sq ft...should make sub-10 knots of wind entertaining, with only my 65kg (145lb) on the wire. 

I've no idea why una-rig has such dominance in non-skiff singlehanded boats. I've had una-rigs myself and always missed the slot effect.

If I hadn't discovered how much more fun and interest there is, singlehanding a two-handed boat, I would have quit dinghy-sailing years ago without looking back.

 

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re: furler--

Hey Strange--Actually the older Tasars came equipted with roller furling gear-but it was mounted on the foredeck about 18 inches forward of the mast. It was intended to be operated by the crew, just like the mast rotation handle.I dont see a practical way for it to be lead to the helm.since the furling lines would have to go on each side of the mast which would interfere with my mast rotation lines. There is a very neat system described in another post on this site for a single line launch and retrieve system for assymetrical spinakers which I may try out on my jib. I love some una rigged single handers but I feel Im missing out when sailing a boat under main alone when I know it was designed to be sailed with a jib.--Especially in light air.

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There is no doubt that a two sail rig is faster in my opinion. I have sailed an NS14 solo for over ten years, and I only use the 7m main, I get creamed by one of the better sailors at our club when he goes back to a two sail NS rig and sails with his wife. One up we are close to being equal, when he also sails with only a main.

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Maybe I am misunderstanding the issues but could you just run the furling line through deadeyes down the edge of the deck, around whatever is in the way? You need to luff up to furl so having to reach forward shouldn't be a big deal either.

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Edward, my genoa furler is very low-tech - a three-inch drum with just one very light line which quickly furls the sail like a roller-blind.

No need for a 'launch' line - just pull on whichever sheet you'll tension for the first tack - that sets the drum spinning to unroll the sail.

The tail of the furler-line runs past the mast, through fairleads, along the centreboard case to a clamcleat where I sit, 12ft behind the bow.

Damned if I can find a decent photo of a Tasar's mast-rotator, but nor can I imagine how it would prevent you leading the furler-line back, as I have.

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I had my first look at the Tasar rotator arm last Saturday at our club, it looks strange to me, as most NS 14s have an infinitely variable rotator, where as the Tasar one has grooves that lock it into predetermined spots.

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RE: Tasar rotator arm

As per my first post--I was able to rig mast rotation LINES to avoid having to go forward after each tack (to use the rotator) which has now been removed and replaced by mast rotation LINES. These lines are attached at the aft base of the mast and lead lead forward on each side to a point on the rail and then aft to the helm. Pulling on the line will rotate  the aft part of the mast thus pulling the leading edge into the correct orientation. The Tasar mast rotator (At least the original ones)had two "stops" on the boom meant to indicate the correct position for beating.But by pulling the lever down The mast could be rotated further for beam reaching ,broad reaching, or whatever. Hard to explain but works fine if you have a crew stationed forward. With my line system,the amount of rotation is determined by how much line you pull. Crude, but effective.

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On 10/30/2017 at 2:51 PM, edward mason said:

With my line system, the amount of rotation is determined by how much line you pull. Crude, but effective.

Sounds good to me, not crude. My kite's bowsprit launcher is going to be crude. Just a stainless U-bolt to secure the sprit laterally, positioned on one side of the forestay, and a ply support with a line through it, bolted four feet back on the foredeck, which will heave the tail of the sprit forward to a fixed point, far enough off the centreline to put the outer end of the sprit exactly on the centreline, six foot ahead of the bow...

...awful lot of guessing and hoping...that's crude. 

I even had to make the spinnaker-halyard point height-adjustable, because the kite has a much longer luff than would be ideal, and I have several different sails to play with. So I'm going to end up with a sort of cleat-console on the thwart, holding lines to secure the spinnaker halyard, the halyard-height-adjuster, the kite retrieval line, the pole-launcher and pole return line.

My best guess is that it'll work once, spectacularly for about 25 seconds, then I'll never want to use it again. :lol: It'll keep me occupied through the winter, though.

Then finally, I'll try the original spinnaker the boat was meant to be sailed with. That pole isn't friendly though, when you have your hands more than full already.

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Hello to all from Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada (with a french Canadian accent ;-)

This is all very interesting! But I might be a lazy sailor ;-)

Here is my take on single handling the Tasar.

I just leave the rotator stop alone, in the centered position almost all the time. If the wind is light enough that I need the extra power on a reach or run then I can definitely get forward and move it where it needs to be. But being alone also means you are a light crew so power is not the problem.

As for the jib, I added a single medium cam cleat (removable) just centered in from of the main sheet cleat and simply attach a single length of rope to the end of both jib sheets (makes kind of a continuous jib sheet) and just clamp it there. That's the beauty of the Tasar, the jib sheet are prisoner in their fair leads! And to ensure the jib sheet stays there, I lead it around the main sheet cleat post. Yes I know you talk about furling the jib, but the "new" Mylar jib have battens, so you can't furl them.

I won't race like that, as you can't race the Tasar single handed, but I can have fun on the lake when no one else wants to join me!

Keep it simple, and it will treat you well.

What do you think ?

Jacques

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I'm still thinking about getting a Tasar - I always liked the look of them but they aren't as common in the UK, as other classes.

I'm accustomed to Javelin/Wayfarer weight, and I want a boat that leaves me some strength to sail after launching.

I would only usually be singlehanding...the fact that there's payload capacity for mademoiselle as well, is a bonus.

I think I read that Mr Bethwaite himself analysed whether a spinnaker could benefit the class, and ditched the idea after empirical tests...

...but as long as I don't care about racing (or the courses which race committees select in order to make the most of specific classes' characteristics), and as long as my weight in the boat is significantly less than the combined helm/crew weight expected, isn't it probable (in some, if not all wind speeds) that the right size and shape of kite would make a singlehanded Tasar plane, sooner, easier and faster than the upwind rig on its own?

Thinking the same way, is there anything about the rig which makes a trapeze distinctly unsuitable on the Tasar?

I like the fact that she's beamy for a 14-footer, but the further I can get my weight from the centreline, the better.

I've sailed a Laser 2 but it felt very slender to me. I'd like to see the three sails/trapeze sophistication applied to the Tasar.

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Can someone who has tried/ done it speak to a single-handler righting a capsized Tasar? Is there a weight threshold that can make it more doable?

B.

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Tasar's are often righted single handed even in quite strong winds, there is normaly only room for one on the centreboard.  the biggest issue is getting back in the boat after its righted as the sides are quite high.   But once you get hold of the swing strap, its ok, you just don't want to do it to often in a single session.

Trapezes have been on and off Tasar for many years, the mast can handle the load without issue.  What most people fail to realise is that a trapeze in most cases reduces compression on the mast because the angle the trap wire makes is far more obtuse.

Get some 3m "safety walk" for the gunwhale and its just fine, tendency to go fwd, but you will work it out.   Bring the shockcord returns out behind the travler pretty easy, pop the centreboard 150mm/6".

Spinnaker, the issue is you have to have a moderatly long pole to get the tack far enough fwd.    You can attached the spin halyard to the 2 rivets at the top of the sleeve, thats pretty safe, you can also go another 100-150mm above that, but not 200mm, that gets into dodgy arena.

29er spin pole is 2m, with 500mm in the boat, so 1500mm out the front.  On a Tasar you have to go atleast 1m, probably 1250mm.   If you went 1500mm you would have so much Lee-helm it would be stupid, so your going to end up with a Yankee rather than a code 0.   And I think that was the problem!   Yankee can be super efficent, but high sheet loads and that was not what the boat was about.

 

BTW, sorry for the spelling on a Italian computer, with spell check, in Milan, in the middle of a snow storm.

 

    Jb

 

 

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This is "Strange Idea", who asked the question above...but I'm unable to use that account or request a new password because the notifications aren't coming to my associated email account (junk file checked), and the administrators haven't responded yet, so I had to start over, with a new ID and different email account. :rolleyes:

Thanks very much, Mr Bethwaite...there's nothing better than advice from the horse's mouth, if you'll pardon the phrase. I haven't bought a Tasar yet; but there's still snow on the ground here. 

I'm glad the trapeze isn't a problem for the Tasar's mast.

I wonder whether anybody with a mind for physics, is able to quantify how much more righting power a 175cm tall, 70kg human can apply by trapezing horizontal, compared with his same weight hiking on the gunwale of a boat 175cm wide? I like to imagine the effect is doubled, but I've no idea. The similarity of my height and the Tasar's beam is just coincidence.

I guess if an asymmetric must be set to a fairly short bowsprit to avoid lee helm, and if its head must be hoisted to a point not much higher than where the forestay meets the mast in order to avoid mast damage, then (rather than a tall flat code-zero), couldn't I just set a much smaller, conventional asymm kite? It wouldn't be massively powerful, but if it added 8sq m to the sailplan, then as a slender singlehander I doubt I'd want much more. Maybe an RS200 kite?

RS200%20kite%20up_zpst9fowysf.jpg

If anybody wonders why I don't just get an RS200, I've seen 'em up close and I don't fancy 'em, whereas I love the Tasar's looks.

Plus, the Tasar rates faster than the RS, even without trap or kite...so how much faster will it be, singlehanded, with both?  :D

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5 hours ago, Even Stranger said:

I wonder whether anybody with a mind for physics, is able to quantify how much more righting power a 175cm tall, 70kg human can apply by trapezing horizontal, compared with his same weight hiking on the gunwale of a boat 175cm wide? I like to imagine the effect is doubled, but I've no idea. The similarity of my height and the Tasar's beam is just coincidence.

mechanics 101.

a little less than double.. you'd double it if you assume lazy hiking with your centre of mass on the gunwhale

 

RM = torque around the centreline of the boat

ie: RM = mass x length

 

Assuming centre of mass is about at 50% height and you can hike maybe 60% of your height outside the gunwhale:

RM (hiking) ~ (beam/2 + height/10) x m

RM (trap) ~ (beam/2 + height/2) x m

 

ratio is about 1.7:1

 

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18 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

mechanics 101.

a little less than double.. you'd double it if you assume lazy hiking with your centre of mass on the gunwhale

 

RM = torque around the centreline of the boat

ie: RM = mass x length

 

Assuming centre of mass is about at 50% height and you can hike maybe 60% of your height outside the gunwhale:

RM (hiking) ~ (beam/2 + height/10) x m

RM (trap) ~ (beam/2 + height/2) x m

 

ratio is about 1.7:1

 

Assuming the waterline beam and beam overall are the same?  If the WL beam is fatter, the hiker will gain some leverage, especially if the flare of the hull (beam overall) offers more float to leeward?  That’s why I was  pointing out the Merlin Rocket/Hadron approach.

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4 hours ago, Amati said:

Assuming the waterline beam and beam overall are the same?  If the WL beam is fatter, the hiker will gain some leverage, especially if the flare of the hull (beam overall) offers more float to leeward?  That’s why I was  pointing out the Merlin Rocket/Hadron approach.

the only way to sail a dinghy fast is flat  (scow's excepted)

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On 04/03/2018 at 10:38 AM, duncan (the other one) said:

mechanics 101.

a little less than double.. you'd double it if you assume lazy hiking with your centre of mass on the gunwhale

 

RM = torque around the centreline of the boat

ie: RM = mass x length

 

Assuming centre of mass is about at 50% height and you can hike maybe 60% of your height outside the gunwhale:

RM (hiking) ~ (beam/2 + height/10) x m

RM (trap) ~ (beam/2 + height/2) x m

 

ratio is about 1.7:1

 

Close but no cigar.  The lever arm to calculate RM is the transverse distance from the Centre of Gravity of the Boat plus Crew to the centre of buoyancy.  A Tasar hull is pretty flat fpr a good deal of its length (I race one) and a very small amount of heel sends the CofBto leeward quite a step and increases RM available at a given crew weight.  Not many degrees, certainly less than 5 as:

  • at some point the drag of the hull increases with heel, negating the extra power from the increased RM, plus
  • once heeled over a small incremental angle the CofB doesn't move much further to leeward, plus
  • once the wind gets up Tasars break out and plane upwind and you need top be flat for this to happen.

A Tasar weighs around 85kg fully rigged I believe (we weigh the hull only in measurement checks, I'm guessing what the rig, foils and sails weigh) and the boats CofG is obviously on the centreline.  A 70kg human sailing solo wouldn't send the CofG a huge distance to windward hiking or trapezing (and would really struggle to sail the boat sensibly in much wind at all).

Given that the delta in RM from trapezing on a Tasar is a bit smaller that one might initially imagine.

Tasars are surprisingly fast upwind, efficient rig plus well developed and practised technique makes the difference - certainly keeping the boat very close to dead flat and forestay length at class maximm to minimise lee helm when sailing very flat.  FWIW on my boat we sail with 143kg crew weight, class event minimum is 130.

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15 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Close but no cigar.  The lever arm to calculate RM is the transverse distance from the Centre of Gravity of the Boat plus Crew to the centre of buoyancy.  A Tasar hull is pretty flat fpr a good deal of its length (I race one) and a very small amount of heel sends the CofBto leeward quite a step and increases RM available at a given crew weight. 

all well and good - but do you guys aim to sail the boat at a small angle of heel, or flat?

 

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

all well and good - but do you guys aim to sail the boat at a small angle of heel, or flat?

 

tiny angle of heel, but effectively flat

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Most people say "flat" , but actually sail with a small heel. This only becomes apparent when you sail on a boat that requires truly flat, like a moth-style foiler or a high performance skiff.

So to disambiguate we may need to ask, have you sailed one of those? Flat like a moth or flat like a regular dinghy?

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6 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

Most people say "flat" , but actually sail with a small heel. This only becomes apparent when you sail on a boat that requires truly flat, like a moth-style foiler or a high performance skiff.

o to disambiguate we may need to ask, have you sailed one of those? Flat like a moth or flat like a regular dinghy?

agreed - but for the purposes of comparing hiking vs. trap RM, we can assume 0 degrees for now.

 

 

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Even the best Laser sailors all sail there boats at 6° heel and if they don't they drag their arse through the water.

Tasar sailors are a lot better. especially given that they are higher up and they do get to 0° or dead flat.

The easiest way is to look at the wake, it screams at you if you go beyond +/- 3-4°.

49er guys crank the boat about 3-4° to windward, 2 reasons, #1 the nature of a gust, by the time they respond possibly feather, at 10 knts there is a fair bit of centrifugal force throwing the boat to leeward, that with the added wind speed, if you start 3-4° to windward you will probably end up 1-2° heeled and that's acceptable, better if you end up at 0°!

2nd reason is you don't need a lot of windward heel to reduce "spanwise drift" of the air flow going up the sail to drop to a negligable level.  Sure you get a drop in RM and your WL's will probably be beneficial (suck you to windward) but the reduction in tip vortex drag outweighs the loss of RM and the screwing up of WL's.

It's all a compromise, it will alter with sea-state, and it's easy to find the optimum for a given set of conditions, just go 2 boat testing.

    Jb

 

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Guys, just love this photo, the VO70's coming out of Cape Town, and their tip vortex-ies chewing up low-level cloud. 

image.png.cf94e04ddc9057a75cadf5dd77ce74e9.png

Any excuse to post it, just contemplate the amount of energy churning so many 1,000's of tonnes of air!

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