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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
thebook

House batteries

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thanks Ish, I got this,

There are many knowledgeable folks on these boards, many with REAL info about batteries on a boat, I am not one of them. To get info from them you must describe your needs, your type of use of the house batts and how you plan to charge them.

You will find the 'search' function in the top right corner of the screen to be a help.

you will need to describe where you are up to in your decision process & why your old batts need replacing.

you will also need to make a pictorial offering as a newbie, but you may already know that as your handle appears to be a sock.

carry on.

ML

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Very observant ML

its for a catalina 30, existing batts are dead, just tested them.  I dont have a generator on board so would like to spend a little extra to get the latest and greatest to cut time running the motor while on a mooring. Battery tech has been evolving pretty quickly in the last few years thats why i am asking instead of looking at older threads

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Absent any more info on usage, charging times. Etc T105 is the low cost, adequate amp option.

Btw just replaced old Life Line w Firefly

Caribbean, no shore power, wind, solar, frig and usual electronics. No microwave or hairdryer

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Charging time is more related to the alternator than the batteries. The higher tech batteries CAN be charged faster, but you have to change to higher output alternator. Keep it simple, stick with good quality lead acid. Get a bigger one or 2nd one if you need more amp-hrs. Some serious cruisers use 6V golf cart batteries, as they handle many more discharge/charge cycles before going bad, and are cheaply replaced with exchange. You'd have to build a beaver battery box and hold down clamp. You can also extend your battery charge by switching to LED lights and avoiding items with a big power draw.

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2 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Charging time is more related to the alternator than the batteries. The higher tech batteries CAN be charged faster, but you have to change to higher output alternator. Keep it simple, stick with good quality lead acid. Get a bigger one or 2nd one if you need more amp-hrs. Some serious cruisers use 6V golf cart batteries, as they handle many more discharge/charge cycles before going bad, and are cheaply replaced with exchange. You'd have to build a beaver battery box and hold down clamp. You can also extend your battery charge by switching to LED lights and avoiding items with a big power draw.

Exactly what is a "beaver battery box"?

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3 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Exactly what is a "beaver battery box"?

Oh fucking autocorrect. Supposed to be heavier. Lol.

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5 hours ago, thebook said:

Battery tech has been evolving pretty quickly in the last few years thats why i am asking instead of looking at older threads

oh ye of little faith, try here:

take the time to read through all of it, there are so many ways to approach the same thing, each brings its own strong opinion. From that you will see you need to provide substantially more info to utilise the latest tech in batteries. You will probably find that your thread here has already provided the answers for you - Firefly &/or RKoch info above.

ML

 

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For the ultimate in longevity go with forklift batteries. Mine are going on 16 years, believe it or not, in a Gozzard 44.

12 lead-acid cells in a box ~ 20”x20”

1200 Ah capacity.

Ronbo

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8 hours ago, RKoch said:
8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Exactly what is a "beaver battery box"?

Oh fucking autocorrect. Supposed to be heavier. Lol.

Shit

You got my hopes for a minute there

Oh yeah batteries- a friend is installing a rather fancy electric plant in his boat, with LiPo batteries configured to provide about 400Ah of 12V, special charger, etc etc. Because he has a little engine and only needs a little start battery, he showed good sense IMHO by putting in a conventional lead/acid start battery. But he does have a hi-output alternator (special bracket, two belts, etc etc) so his engine basically becomes a 12V genset

Will let you know how it works out in practice.

My theory: get golf cart batteries. Most bang for buck, easy to replace when they burn out in East Bumfuck. I like the sound of forklift batteries but wonder about availability

FB- Doug

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Start by calculating you daily loads for how you sail and how long you want to go without charging using no more than 60% depth of discharge for lead acid or get batteries. Unless you are voyaging, liFePO batteries are a bridge too far. You are more likely to kill your batteries through abuse or neglect than wear them out. 

Does the boat sit in a slip with shore power available that allows you to top off batteries with a quality 3 stage charger?  What size alternator and how is it regulated?  

I’ve  said it it the referenced threads but my use is about 100 AH daily for weekend cruising. I wanted about 3 days on the hook without a recharge so put in a 540 AH bank of T-145+ Trojans. My engine driven alt is too small but would need to convert to a serpentine belt and a large frame alternator at a cost I’m not ready to spend at present so I normally return from a long weekend with a slight deficit unless I motor more than I like. With a mastervolt 100 amp charger and shore power, the batteries get treated to a 3 stage top off when I get home.

Your needs and wants are likely different. Start with those. 

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For US based sailors the best bang for your buck are Costco/Sams Club golf cart batteries. 

Genuine Trojans may last a little longer.

Ignore anyone who mentions lithium. 

I use Trojan T105s and they get a 30% cycle every day. I expect to get 4 years use from them.

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15 hours ago, thebook said:

what are my options on house batteries? any recomendations?

Thanks in advance

The option that has worked very well for me is 4x 6v golf carts.  (And 12v starter battery.)

On/off switch for each bank, with on/off switch to parallel or isolate the two banks if need be.  

This has worked very well for me.  Easy.

 

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49 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

...and ignore anyone who mentions the word Trojan. They get very confused on account of waking up in the morning with one hanging out of their arse.

Okay, 6V I could see but how do you get a 12V Trojan to fit?

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Thanks guys, lots of great info, IB my set up is pretty similar, i need to get down to the boat and do a load calc to figure my usage. My motor is an old atomic 4 so im guessing my alternator output isnt huge, would that be called out anywhere on the alternator itself?

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And they still use the good old Bulk/Absorbance/Float charging scheme we all know and love so well. 

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1 hour ago, thebook said:

Thanks guys, lots of great info, IB my set up is pretty similar, i need to get down to the boat and do a load calc to figure my usage. My motor is an old atomic 4 so im guessing my alternator output isnt huge, would that be called out anywhere on the alternator itself?

Probably about 25A. It won't put that out continuously...maybe 15-20 when battery is flat, tapering off as battery nears full charge. L-A batteries like a slower charge. 

Buy a copy of Casey's This Old Boat, and 12V Bible. You can calculate usage. Battery storage capacity is relatively cheap, increasing rate of charge is expensive. And can shorten battery life. An hour or so a day of running your motor will charge house battery if you keep usage down. Charge up with battery charger at dock. You can also get a trickle charge from a solar panel if you don't mind the crap on the back. 

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I believe those mostly came with Motorola 37 amp alternators, though some are 55.  

(I bought a 100 amp replacement - supposed to fit without changing the pulley - but have never installed it.  Turns out the old one was never installed correctly and I just had to connect the right wires.  Waiting for the old house battery to die before I dive into that again.)  

BTW: If the gadgets on your boat are like mine, most of the loads are somewhere between a RCH and a tick on the ammeter.  Kind of hard to measure accurately, except the few larger ones.  One option is just to "turn everything on" (Don't forget the machine that goes *ping*!) and see what the total is - to within half an amp or so.  Another cheap option is these Chinese multimeters that can be had on eBay or Amazon for less than 20 bucks.  I got one, and its AC twin, but of course they don't just drop into the panel where the old gauges are. They're shorter and wider.  Will have to find another spot for them.  Or rebuild the panel.  Who knows how long they'll last?  I also haven't checked the calibration against a trusted meter, but those two significant digits sure are exciting!  

61XijDQY5-L._SL1000_.jpg

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Ignore anyone who mentions lithium. 

I ll say it again

Ignore anyone who mentions lithium. 

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Lithium is said to be a very effective antipsychotic.  The only problem is that the effective dose is just a little too close to the lethal dose.  

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1 hour ago, toddster said:

I believe those mostly came with Motorola 37 amp alternators, though some are 55.  

(I bought a 100 amp replacement - supposed to fit without changing the pulley - but have never installed it.  Turns out the old one was never installed correctly and I just had to connect the right wires.  Waiting for the old house battery to die before I dive into that again.)  

BTW: If the gadgets on your boat are like mine, most of the loads are somewhere between a RCH and a tick on the ammeter.  Kind of hard to measure accurately, except the few larger ones.  One option is just to "turn everything on" (Don't forget the machine that goes *ping*!) and see what the total is - to within half an amp or so.  Another cheap option is these Chinese multimeters that can be had on eBay or Amazon for less than 20 bucks.  I got one, and its AC twin, but of course they don't just drop into the panel where the old gauges are. They're shorter and wider.  Will have to find another spot for them.  Or rebuild the panel.  Who knows how long they'll last?  I also haven't checked the calibration against a trusted meter, but those two significant digits sure are exciting!  

61XijDQY5-L._SL1000_.jpg

Do you have a link to these things?

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Exactly what is a "beaver battery box"?

Chewed around the edges.

9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Shit

You got my hopes for a minute there

Oh yeah batteries- a friend is installing a rather fancy electric plant in his boat, with LiPo batteries configured to provide about 400Ah of 12V, special charger, etc etc. Because he has a little engine and only needs a little start battery, he showed good sense IMHO by putting in a conventional lead/acid start battery. But he does have a hi-output alternator (special bracket, two belts, etc etc) so his engine basically becomes a 12V genset

Will let you know how it works out in practice.

My theory: get golf cart batteries. Most bang for buck, easy to replace when they burn out in East Bumfuck. I like the sound of forklift batteries but wonder about availability

FB- Doug

A typical forklift battery consists of many 2VDC cells roughly 7x7x25"h and weighing ~110lbs. I know this because I have 25 of them in my basement right now. (That would be 2 parallel strings of 12 cells, ~1200AH each @ 20hr rate, plus one on the side for hot-swapping.) Very tall and skinny as a rule -- not the ideal form factor for boats. Also, while the plates are hella stout, that thickness comes at the expense of surface area/lb, meaning charge densities will be lower than, say, golf cart batteries. Like most lead antimony batteries, they are given to sulfation, high self-discharge rates, and positive plate erosion. Otherwise, nothing special about them. Available used for under $100 each: rode hard during their life, with history of 'opportunity charging' and dumb charging units. 

Anyhow: You get most of the same performance with T-105s or L-16s, with a greater range of form factors and voltage options. L-16s are actually a real good size for modern cruisers. Offer a range of fitments & terminal options. Supposedly both L-16s and T-105s now available with some 'carbon' admixture that (allegedly) resists sulfation better for batteries suffering prolonged discharge states or less-than-complete charging cycles. Like a cruising boat might do. Less so a daysailed boat with shore power. :) We were looking at L-16s when our beloved telecoms croaked, but we found a used forklift battery with twice the capacity for less money. But yeah, it's kinda wrecked.

ETA: Forklift cells are made to piston-fit into a stout metal tray and require  support on all sides.  Not a rigid jar.

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2 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Do you have a link to these things?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JOUZELG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As typical for Chinese junk, apparently the same thing is sold under many brands at slightly different prices. You pay a little more for "Amazon Prime" stuff which is actually warehoused in the US.  Sometimes a lot less for the same stuff that gets mailed from China.  Sometimes that stuff never arrives.  

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I use a couple of these.

I have one to measure current out (LOAD) and one to measure current in (SOURCE). They measure current cumulatively but only up to a maximum of 65 amp hours then they go back to zero.

They're advertised as 130 amp but actually will only handle about 65 amp comfortably. They work by using the Hall Effect (no idea what that means) so they can be considered as just a pair of conductors that will conduct current in both directions but only measure it in one direction, SOURCE to LOAD.

They're always ON and have been for 4 years now and the only real downside is the eerie blue light in the cabin at night. Easily fixed with a strategically placed sailing hat.

I have another one in the toolkit with some of the XT 60 connectors shown on the Amazon page https://www.amazon.com/Power-Analyzer-JZCreater-Precision-Measurement/dp/B01LVTST80/ref=pd_sbs_263_41?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01LVTST80&pd_rd_r=JWQK8Z8RFDKC35162HPZ&pd_rd_w=TQBxW&pd_rd_wg=fMz2e&psc=1&refRID=JWQK8Z8RFDKC35162HPZ 

for checking the current drain of various things and seeing if the battery charger has fully charged the AGM battery in the car.

The model plane/helicopter places have lots of this sort of stuff which can be useful in a boat situation.

 

59f5cb509d567_WattMeter.thumb.jpg.eab728ca8bf5c86f80308cf18b846693.jpg

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I’m 6 months having my LiFePO4 400ah house batteries and I think they’re the greatest things since sliced bread. What you should ignore is the bollocks above. 

 

LiFePO4 arent for everyone. If you want a drop-in replacement for lead, lithium ain’t for you. You have to think of it as a complete system. Proper design for charging, correct charge parameters (you can’t deplete them to nothing, you can’t overcharge all to hell). And you can’t think that the BMS is a substitute for proper charging; it’s not a charge monitor, it’s there to protect your battery bank. 

 

And as for for a weekender, actually lithium is fine. Just don’t bother to plug your boat in at the dock. The batts are happy to sit there at 50% for however long. Come back to the boat, turn the key, use the boat, leave it at 50-60%, rinse and repeat.  Just don’t float the LiFePO4 batts to 100%..

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8 years into my Lifelines w Promariner smart charger and separate red top emergency start battery. Working like the day I got them. I use shorepower, yes, but I'll say this... upfront expense has been well worth it.

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1 hour ago, Max Rockatansky said:

The batts are happy to sit there at 50% for however long.

Actually rock it is around 20% SOC or a CV of 3.15v for long periods to avoid capacity shrinkage.

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Well, thebook..you've gotten some good ideas already, and some bullshit which is usual around here. Some of the things that also need to be discussed are what vintage of C-30 you have..with an Atomic 4, I suspect your batteries are on the port side with the motor. The newer boats with the shitty diesels moved the batteries to stbd. I have an older C-30 (#511) with an A-4 and moved my batteries to stbd under the settee and added another battery to create a house bank when I re-wired the boat with two Gr29's, and a Gr 24 for start, to offset the port list..this gives me 230Ah on the house side. Folks like IB and toddster are right, you need to figure out load and consumption to do it right...I didn't do that..I just jammed as many batteries (cheap lead acid) as I could in the space, and I still run the Motorola 35A alternator, but my loads are low, so I am doing just fine presently. 6v golf cart lead acid could be a consideration too..they are available world wide..fancier ones like AGMs and stuff are not always if you sailing to Tahiti or something.

My personal thought was that I would build as much capacity as reasonable in the space available for now, in anticipation of more load later on. So that means things like, do you have refrigeration, have you already shifted to LED lighting, tiller pilot, auto helm, chartplotter, electronics, iPads, kids, etc.?

You need to get an account over on the moyer marine forum too if you haven't already for help with the A-4. 

Here is a pic of my bank with the two 29's in parallel under the stbd settee. We are a bit restricted on height with this configuration, but there is some room outboard for longer batteries of the same height. I glassed in some PVC shelves to accommodate all this.. 

One other consideration for the OEM A-4 Motorola alternator is that the regulators from the 70's only put out 13.8v, which puts the batteries in a chronic undercharge situation, especially with the 35A output. I have an aftermarket regulator that is adjustable and I am presently pumping 14.2v into the batteries. More recently it seems even 14.4v is OK for lead acid unless you start spending $$ on smarter controllers and letting them do all the work.

new_house1.jpg

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Ish what about service batteries? or is that device AC powered?

Service batteries? No, all our servants are human. Batteries are useless in a good cattle prod.

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10 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Ish don't you count your geiger counter?

 

Cdv-700_geiger_counter_circa_1960.jpg

Why should I? I'm not a geiger counter counter.

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 5:51 PM, TQA said:

 

Ignore anyone who mentions lithium. 

I ll say it again

Ignore anyone who mentions lithium. 


I have long suspected that many people in these forums are ignoring recommendations of lithium.
.

.

.

Oh wait, you mean batteries?  Sorry, I was thinking mood stabilizers.  Carry on.  

 

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OK In response to a couple of PMs I will add my 2 cents worth.

First of all I am or was a qualified Auto Electrician [ City and Guilds Full Technological Certificate ] I have been living off the grid now for 15 years using towed water generators, wind generators, solar panels and on rare occasions a generator [ I hate noise ] I have also used lithium batteries for many years as I flew rc planes. So I know my way around low voltage systems.

A good base point for a domestic bank in a small sailboat is 200 - 300 amp hours. Two 6 volt golf cart batteries from Sams Club  will give you 275 amp hours and cost $ 169.04 the two batteries weigh 126 lbs.

The best deal I could find on something comparable using Lithium technology has a little more capacity at 300 amp hours. The single 8D size battery weighs 93 lbs and costs $ 3,500

So you would save 33 lbs but the cost is more than 20 times greater.

Are lithium batteries dangerous. YES YES YES. In the early days of lithium battery use my modelling friends quickly learned to remove them from the model before charging and to place them in a metal container. Many models went up in smoke and many cars did also as the battery was left on the seat while charging. I was also on the dock in Falmouth harbor Antigua when the race boat Titan caught fire. The fire was traced to the lithium batteries and the charging system. Many extinguishers were discharged to little effect. Several small bore water hoses ran water on to the fire again to little effect. by this time the fibre glass was on fire. A large pump arrived and was used to flood the boat.with several feet of water in the boat the fire went out. This reinforced my thinking that I don't want something like this on my boat. I bet Boeing wish they had weighted for safer battery technology.

Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) batteries are touted as being safe. Well they are safer but when damaged, overcharged or overdischarged they will "puff". The cell concerned will expand by 50 to 100% If the cell ruptures white gas escapes under pressure and the cell heats up. Temperatures of 500C to 1000C are achieved. Once this process starts it is essentially irreversible. IE you can't put it out with a bucket of water. If the battery shell cracks you are likely to have similar problems. 

Dendrites are microscopic fingers of lithium which grow inside the battery especially when the battery is subjected to high rates of discharge and charge. They are thought to be the cause of most of the fires in the Galaxy Note 7 smartphone.

Charging lithium batteries has to be done very carefully especially where multiple cells are charged in series. Each cell has to be monitored separately and the charge rate controlled if the cell is overcharged. Now a typical boatowner will rely on the internal electronic circuitry supplied by the people who build the battery bank. But we as boatowners know only too well that it is not if something electronic will fail but when. When it fails overcharging is likely and the result will not be pretty. 

So to sum up if you own a race boat and every ounce matters then lithium makes some sense. If you are a cruiser why pay twenty times more for technology that is still being developed and you get a battery which may last longer but if it puffs fails and vents then you have a major heat source which can exceed the flash point of fibreglass [ 293C ] 

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Thanks for the reasoned description and real-world numbers. Beats the heck out of saying IGNORE LITHIUM

21 minutes ago, TQA said:

OK In response to a couple of PMs I will add my 2 cents worth.

First of all I am or was a qualified Auto Electrician [ City and Guilds Full Technological Certificate ] I have been living off the grid now for 15 years using towed water generators, wind generators, solar panels and on rare occasions a generator [ I hate noise ] I have also used lithium batteries for many years as I flew rc planes. So I know my way around low voltage systems.

A good base point for a domestic bank in a small sailboat is 200 - 300 amp hours. Two 6 volt golf cart batteries from Sams Club  will give you 275 amp hours and cost $ 169.04 the two batteries weigh 126 lbs.

The best deal I could find on something comparable using Lithium technology has a little more capacity at 300 amp hours. The single 8D size battery weighs 93 lbs and costs $ 3,500

So you would save 33 lbs but the cost is more than 20 times greater.

Are lithium batteries dangerous. YES YES YES. In the early days of lithium battery use my modelling friends quickly learned to remove them from the model before charging and to place them in a metal container. Many models went up in smoke and many cars did also as the battery was left on the seat while charging. I was also on the dock in Falmouth harbor Antigua when the race boat Titan caught fire. The fire was traced to the lithium batteries and the charging system. Many extinguishers were discharged to little effect. Several small bore water hoses ran water on to the fire again to little effect. by this time the fibre glass was on fire. A large pump arrived and was used to flood the boat.with several feet of water in the boat the fire went out. This reinforced my thinking that I don't want something like this on my boat. I bet Boeing wish they had weighted for safer battery technology.

Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) batteries are touted as being safe. Well they are safer but when damaged, overcharged or overdischarged they will "puff". The cell concerned will expand by 50 to 100% If the cell ruptures white gas escapes under pressure and the cell heats up. Temperatures of 500C to 1000C are achieved. Once this process starts it is essentially irreversible. IE you can't put it out with a bucket of water. If the battery shell cracks you are likely to have similar problems. 

Dendrites are microscopic fingers of lithium which grow inside the battery especially when the battery is subjected to high rates of discharge and charge. They are thought to be the cause of most of the fires in the Galaxy Note 7 smartphone.

Charging lithium batteries has to be done very carefully especially where multiple cells are charged in series. Each cell has to be monitored separately and the charge rate controlled if the cell is overcharged. Now a typical boatowner will rely on the internal electronic circuitry supplied by the people who build the battery bank. But we as boatowners know only too well that it is not if something electronic will fail but when. When it fails overcharging is likely and the result will not be pretty. 

So to sum up if you own a race boat and every ounce matters then lithium makes some sense. If you are a cruiser why pay twenty times more for technology that is still being developed and you get a battery which may last longer but if it puffs fails and vents then you have a major heat source which can exceed the flash point of fibreglass [ 293C ] 

 

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Hmmm.....

Never seen a golf cart battery with 275 AH, and Sam's club sure doesn't sell one. Comparing LiFePo4 to polymer or cobalt or other chemistries is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. Yes you can start a fire with LFP batteries if you abuse them. You can just as easily start a fire with normal old flooded LA batteries, or AGMs. There is enough energy in them to strike a pretty good welding arc, they outgas explosive hyrdogen, etc. The Galaxy Note 7 may have caught on fire (and dozens of other Chinese products) but those do not use LFP batteries. Neither did Boeing, or the 'Titan', or RC planes, or the Chevy Volt, or any Tesla. You are conflating two things which are not the same. 

There may be good reasons to ignore LFP batteries, but the safety of a properly installed bank isn't a compelling one. Due to the monitoring and disconnects, it will in fact be safer than a typical LA installation, which has none of those things. 

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My 400ah bank weighs 110lb and cost $5000, including all controls and boxes. This replaced the LA @ 200ah, which weighed 196lb. Twice the amp-hours at half the weight. And the longevity of LFP is greater so the price is more of a wash than you probably think. 

 

SeaTek in Marathon FL recovered an immersed (for about a week) LFP system from a sunken boat. For shits and giggles, the guys tried to recover the six-cell system. Five are working, and are presently being cycle- load- tested and so far so good.

 

Elite Power Solutions has a comprehensive website about LFP if you’re interested. 

https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/

 

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9 hours ago, TQA said:

OK In response to a couple of PMs I will add my 2 cents worth.

First of all I am or was a qualified Auto Electrician [ City and Guilds Full Technological Certificate

 

9 hours ago, TQA said:

I have also used lithium batteries for many years as I flew rc planes. 

Mmm I thought to myself, cars and model planes, this will be interesting having regard to my original and polite question of you that was ignored, being.

On 29/10/2017 at 12:56 AM, TQA said:

Ignore anyone who mentions lithium

 

On 29/10/2017 at 2:10 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Please explain together with your knowledge and experience with LFP.

So let's cut to the chase shall we.

9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I was also on the dock in Falmouth harbor Antigua when the race boat Titan caught fire.

If you were on the dock at Falmouth as you claim you would have heard like most and particularly having regard for  your profession, that Titan had for its time largely an experimental lithium setup that was fitted around 9 years ago. 

What you may not have heard on the dock, but I'm very surprised you don't mention here being a lithium expert and all, is Titan's batteries comprised very high energy lithium cobolt chemistry. This was on account the far safer lower energy density lithium phosphate or LFP chemistry was not yet being commercially produced at that point, along with associated hardware and more importantly knowledge about using the product. The cause of the fire is believed to have been a combination of a charger with too higher set point and inadequate HVE cell protection.

All lithium battery fires be it hand held devices, Boeing etc have been caused by high energy density lithium cobolt chemistry not lower energy density LFP that does not have the same "thermal runway" issues. LFP has been used on boats for around 8 years now. There is no evidence in that period worldwide of more than a handful or less of boat fires being attributable to LFP instalations. The vast majority of boat fires are caused by low voltage electrical installations executed by those other than marine electricians.

You say:

9 hours ago, TQA said:

Dendrites are microscopic fingers of lithium which grow inside the battery especially when the battery is subjected to high rates of discharge and charge. They are thought to be the cause of most of the fires in the Galaxy Note 7 smartphone.

"Fingers of lithium" wow that sounds like wonderful stuff save for the fact it is codswallap, not the cause of Galaxy 7 phones catching fire and whereby those phones batteries are not made using lithium or LFP chemistry. You go on to say:

9 hours ago, TQA said:

Charging lithium batteries has to be done very carefully especially where multiple cells are charged in series. Each cell has to be monitored separately and the charge rate controlled if the cell is overcharged. Now a typical boatowner will rely on the internal electronic circuitry supplied by the people who build the battery bank.

You first sentence is correct, bearing in mind, all battery chemistry's involve a collection of cells. Each LFP cell unlike LA is monitored for voltage and in some instalations temperature. A LFP BMS does not control charge rate, like all batteries the SOC of the battery controls that. A BMS simply cuts the charge source in the event any cell was to go beyond a certain voltage or temperature if so monitored. Most people never see this cutoff ever occuring on account the pack voltage charge setpoint is probably around 0.5v (1.0v for 24v) less than that cuttoff. BMS's are investment protection devises, not charge control devises. 

Sir I suggest in future that if you want to pour shit on something stick to what you know and have experience with. 

Clearly pulling stuff out of Google's arse has let you down, and in doing so all you have done is mislead people like Steam who replied to you, not to mention all those PM's you got.

9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Thanks for the reasoned description and real-world numbers. Beats the heck out of saying IGNORE LITHIUM

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8 hours ago, DDW said:

Hmmm.....

Never seen a golf cart battery with 275 AH, and Sam's club sure doesn't sell one. Comparing LiFePo4 to polymer or cobalt or other chemistries is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. Yes you can start a fire with LFP batteries if you abuse them. You can just as easily start a fire with normal old flooded LA batteries, or AGMs. There is enough energy in them to strike a pretty good welding arc, they outgas explosive hyrdogen, etc. The Galaxy Note 7 may have caught on fire (and dozens of other Chinese products) but those do not use LFP batteries. Neither did Boeing, or the 'Titan', or RC planes, or the Chevy Volt, or any Tesla. You are conflating two things which are not the same. 

There may be good reasons to ignore LFP batteries, but the safety of a properly installed bank isn't a compelling one. Due to the monitoring and disconnects, it will in fact be safer than a typical LA installation, which has none of those things. 

My Trojans actually quote 287 amp hours at the 100 hr rate. T 145 specs

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You first sentence is correct, bearing in mind, all battery chemistry's involve a collection of cells. Each LFP cell unlike LA is monitored for voltage and in some instalations temperature. A LFP BMS does not control charge rate, like all batteries the SOC of the battery controls that. A BMS simply cuts the charge source in the event any cell was to go beyond a certain voltage or temperature if so monitored. Most people never see this cutoff ever occuring on account the pack voltage charge setpoint is probably around 0.5v (1.0v for 24v) less than that cuttoff. BMS's are investment protection devises, not charge control devises. 

Jack your ignorance is showing. At least I think it is as I am confused by the TLAs.

Perhaps you can explain simply how you propose to correct an unbalanced pack WITHOUT HAVING THE ABILITY TO CONTROL THE CHARGE RATE ON INDIVIDUAL CELLS'

 

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10 hours ago, TQA said:

OK In response to a couple of PMs I will add my 2 cents worth.

First of all I am or was a qualified Auto Electrician [ City and Guilds Full Technological Certificate ] I have been living off the grid now for 15 years using towed water generators, wind generators, solar panels and on rare occasions a generator [ I hate noise ] I have also used lithium batteries for many years as I flew rc planes. Which is in no way relavent to LFP battery tech. It's like saying you make ships in bottles so you know a lot about rigging sloop rigged boats. So I know my way around low voltage systems.

A good base point for a domestic bank in a small sailboat is 200 - 300 amp hours. Two 6 volt golf cart batteries from Sams Club  will give you 275 amp hours and cost $ 169.04 the two batteries weigh 126 lbs.  Which represents about 110Ah of usable capacity @ 12V. You can't discharge past 50%, and you can rarely get past 90% full on the hook because of charge input tapering in Lead-acid batteries. So you get 40% of the rated capacity as usable.

The best deal I could find on something comparable using Lithium technology has a little more capacity at 300 amp hours.Ah, but that 200Ah can be discharged to 20% and fully recharged to 100% quickly, so your usable Ah is 240Ah, more than twice the capacity of your Sam's Club batteries. The single 8D size battery weighs 93 lbs and costs $ 3,500 That's because you are looking at the wrong stuff. Nobody knowledgeable recommends pre-made LFP drop in batteries as a good solution. You can go extrememly high end (e.g. all Mastervolt/Victron), or roll your own. But most "drop in" lead-acid replacement batteries are over priced crap. they tend to have poor protection so can be easily wrecked, are wildly overpriced, and sold with a lot of dishonest promises about working with L-A type charge profiles which will destroy them.

So you would save 33 lbs but the cost is more than 20 times greater. Again, your assumptions are wrong. On my boat I replaced 800lbs of AGMs with 400lbs of LiFePO4 batteries and got 3X the usuable capacity in Ah. The cost for the whole system including chargers was about 3.5X the replacement cost of the AGMs I used to have. But these will last 10-15 years and cust my genset runtime by 60-70%.

Are lithium batteries dangerous. YES YES YES. In the early days of lithium battery use my modelling friends quickly learned to remove them from the model before charging and to place them in a metal container. Many models went up in smoke and many cars did also as the battery was left on the seat while charging. I was also on the dock in Falmouth harbor Antigua when the race boat Titan caught fire. The fire was traced to the lithium batteries and the charging system. Many extinguishers were discharged to little effect. Several small bore water hoses ran water on to the fire again to little effect. by this time the fibre glass was on fire. A large pump arrived and was used to flood the boat.with several feet of water in the boat the fire went out. This reinforced my thinking that I don't want something like this on my boat. I bet Boeing wish they had weighted for safer battery technology. You seem confused about the fact that there are MANY types of Lithium battery technologies out there. Lithium Polymer is not the same as LiFePo4. Your anecdotes from model planes are meaningless and irrelevant to a completely different battery technology.

Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) batteries are touted as being safe. Well they are safer but when damaged, overcharged or overdischarged they will "puff". The cell concerned will expand by 50 to 100% If the cell ruptures white gas escapes under pressure and the cell heats up. Temperatures of 500C to 1000C are achieved. Once this process starts it is essentially irreversible. IE you can't put it out with a bucket of water. If the battery shell cracks you are likely to have similar problems. Your statement doesn't really match any information I've found on LiFePO4 batteries being way more dangerous than Lead-Acid. Care to cite? I can show you some nice videos of people shooting LFPs, throwing them in a fire, and intentionally shorting them without getting the results you talk about if you want.

Dendrites are microscopic fingers of lithium which grow inside the battery especially when the battery is subjected to high rates of discharge and charge. They are thought to be the cause of most of the fires in the Galaxy Note 7 smartphone. Different battery technology...more misinformation. Who cares about the Note 7? It's not useing the same technology for the batteries, or for the charging and regulation and is highly limited by it's small form factor requirements.

Charging lithium batteries has to be done very carefully especially where multiple cells are charged in series. Each cell has to be monitored separately and the charge rate controlled if the cell is overcharged. Now a typical boatowner will rely on the internal electronic circuitry supplied by the people who build the battery bank. Only if they are gullible. You are assuming drop-in replacements again. No one recommends those but the people that sell them. A smart boat owner will do their research and realize there are better ways to do this.  But we as boatowners know only too well that it is not if something electronic will fail but when. When it fails overcharging is likely and the result will not be pretty.  Actually, this is utterly false. If my BMS fails during charging, it immediately cuts off the charger's access to the batteries. The chargers shut off. The battery itself shuts off in the event of a major fault like this. It is protected on several levels agains this sort of behavior. Sure, the crappy pre-made systems you are talking about may do that, but you assume that people will use them and they should not.

So to sum up if you own a race boat and every ounce matters then lithium makes some sense. If you are a cruiser why pay twenty times This is sheer bullshit. A new set of house AGMs for my boat costs about $5-6000. My LFP replacement project, including the BMS, all the wiring, and the new chargers I bought, was a little more than 3X that. The AGMs would last me maybe three years. The LFP batteries will likely last 10-20 years, and add a decade or two to the life of my generator because I am literally running it 1.2 hours/day on average instead of 4-5 hours per day  more for technology that is still being developed and you get a battery which may last longer but if it puffs fails and vents then you have a major heat source which can exceed the flash point of fibreglass [ 293C ] Newflash - this can happen with Lead-Acid too.

 

Your post is fraught with so much mis-information it needs addressing. Your post demonstrates a lack a basic understanding of LFP tech, from things like charge acceptance rates to acceptle levels of DoD. You also fail to mention many of the positives of the LFP technology, while wildly exaggerting the downsides and risks associated with them. While you may think you know something, your entire post is basically crap. This is based on my experience living on board for five+ years, and researching, designing and building my own LFP bank.

The key to a safe, long lasting LFP installation is a proper installation with the right protections in place. What you describe - buying off the shelf 8D replacement cells - is not that. Not by a long shot.

 

P.S. AGM's are typically good for 600-800 cycles, max. LFPs are good for more like 2,000 cycles. And because you can use them to an 80% DoD, you put a LOT fewer cycles on them. My LFP's have been running since late augst/early September. In that time I've put 15 charge cycles on them. If I still had AGMs I would have put 45 or more cycles on in that time. And in that time period I've put an average of 1.2 hours/day on my generator. I'm running it for 3-4 hours, every third day and that is with NO charger from my wind or solar being used. I used to run it 4-5 hours every 30 or so hours, while having my wind generator and sometimes solar assisting. Do the math, I'd put 300+ cycles every year on a set of AGMs...so divided into 6-800 2-3 year life. Now I'm putting about 110-115 cycles/year on my LFPs. Divide that into 2,000 and tell me how long these should last.

P.P.S. That still doesn't mean I think LFPs are a good replacement for weekenders and summer only sailors. The ROI for them there is much longer than mine since my boat is used every day. They require a little more attention, but nothing like what you describe.

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10 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Thanks for the reasoned description and real-world numbers. Beats the heck out of saying IGNORE LITHIUM

 

You really should ignore his entire post.

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1 hour ago, TQA said:

Jack your ignorance is showing. At least I think it is as I am confused by the TLAs.

Perhaps you can explain simply how you propose to correct an unbalanced pack WITHOUT HAVING THE ABILITY TO CONTROL THE CHARGE RATE ON INDIVIDUAL CELLS'

 

It is not me, it is how properly engineered and operated LFP systems work and I think have already answered your question in advance by saying. 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

A LFP BMS does not control charge rate, like all batteries the SOC of the battery controls that

and

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Most people never see this cutoff ever occuring on account the pack voltage charge setpoint is probably around 0.5v (1.0v for 24v) less than that cuttoff. BMS's are investment protection devises, not charge control devises. 

The only way to control charge rate is at the source. I am aware of no BMS for house power applications like marine that do that other than turn that source off and on and open or close the charge circuit. That is not to say it doesn't occur in EV world, it might.

So to your question of cell balancing. Firstly LFP cells will only start to get out of balance when they hit either very low or high cell voltages. Some BMS's can monitor individual cells but the majority are daisy chained for monitoring and cell balancing. So the majority of instalations balancing is achieved by individual cell boards shunting off voltage in the form of heat at this high voltage. Their ability to do that in terms of quantum is obviously limited. 

Once under load they will return to balance providing they were top balanced at the time of installation for a DIY assembly. That is done by paralleling the cells and charging the string using a power supply then left to self balance to within a millivolt or two. It is also possible to do this with factory assembled packs on a nominal pack voltage basis using a power supply without disassembling the pack and cell boards. However with properly engineered products used as specified, rebalancing should not be necessary.

As for day to day use providing you charge at a pack voltage less than where the cells start to go out of balance there is actually no need for cell balancing at all. In fact some people advocate disabling the cell balancing shunt as it simply adds something which can go wrong and potentially destroy a cell. As I said above all that is required is to charge at a pack voltage up to say 0.5 volts (12v) less than the BMS's HVC voltage or around say 13.8 to 14.0 volts

There is no meaningfull battery capacity opportunity loss by this practise as there is very little capacity in LFP within this voltage range. As for balancing using this regieme, a pack might go for a 1000 or more cycles where individual cell voltages vary by a couple of millivolts. 

I hope that answers your question. For any future questions you may like to pose can I suggest you not preface them by saying I'm ignorant.

PS. While I'm a strong advocate of LFP, particularly for the high seas cruiser, the majority of sail boat owners with regard to usage, they and their wallets would be better off using flooded LA. Once people have a sealed battery requirement the wheels seem to fall off with regard to selection based on their loads and charge sources and how they should be treated with respect to longevity. Also a large number of LFP drop in marketed products will not comply with pending ABYC regs.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

The only way to control charge rate is at the source. I am aware of no BMS for house power applications like marine that do that other than turn that source off and on and open or close the charge circuit. That is not to say it doesn't occur in EV world, it might.

My Emus BMS when working with a CAN Enabled charger (like I have) DOES regulate the charge rate. Specifically, it has a balancing stage, where it requests variable amounts of current from the charger - you can see it cycle through different requested vs. delivered charge currents. Also, the BMS can be used to set the requested charge current for Main Charging stage and has a switch you can throw for "Regular" vs. "Fast" charging, all of which is controlled on the software side of the BMS. So I can do things like lower the charge current to 120A from 140A so I have enough power to run my water heater and chargers together without overwhelming my generator.

But that requires CAN Bus, working with non-CAN chargers, yeah, the batteries will suck as much current as the charger will give out.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

There is no meaningfull battery capacity opportunity loss by this practise as there is very little capacity in LFP within this voltage range. As for balancing using this regieme, a pack might go for a 1000 or more cycles where individual cell voltages vary by a couple of millivolts. 

So far, my cell voltages are all within  .03V of each other. Right now they're all from 3.32V to 3.35V...six of the eight groups are all at 3.33V.

I top balanced the whole bank before  I started the install. Of course, it's only been a couple of months but they seem to be getting more in balance, not less.

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10 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

My Emus BMS when working with a CAN Enabled charger (like I have) DOES regulate the charge rate.

Hi BJ. As you well know it won't regulate an alternator or have you found a workaround for that? Also don't tell the folks here what it cost you, they would faint. Have you left Brisbane yet or staying there?

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

Hi BJ. As you well know it won't regulate an alternator or have you found a workaround for that? Also don't tell the folks what it cost you, they would faint. Have you left Brisbane yet or staying there?

The whole system came in around $19K in the end - but that includes two new chargers sent from the US and a new inverter, as well as a few tools and a bunch of extra connectors and a spare BMS CPU for a backup. That was withing my fudge factor for the budget, which was around $17K, +/- $3K or so. But it's a pretty big bank, and even with that my ROI is about 5-6 years* versus the AGM replacement, when you take into consideration the dramatically decreased wear & tear on my generator and the fuel and maintenance costs.

 

No, that is one YUGE downside to the EMUS BMS. It is a choice of CAN chargers, or non-CAN chargers. This is something I didn't figure out until too late. Had I realized the full implications of that I would have simply gone with all non-CAN chargers. Though the smarts of the CAN integration is nice, I kind of like my wind generator.

Having a dual bus battery system (for others - that means one bus for loads, one bus for charging input) means it is a bit difficult to get the wind, alternator and solar working with it. With the the CAN firmware installed, it only turns Main Charging on if it detects a CAN charger. There's no other way built in to close the charge contactor and get power off the charge bus, so I still have to kluge something.

At present, I have my alternator all scaled back to work with the battery bank with the lowered voltages and alternator de-rating that Stan Honey recommended that he use in his own installation. But I pulled the fuse on the Balmar Regulator, so it's not working. In a pinch, I can plug the fuse in and it will charge through the load circuit but I REALLY, REALLY don't want to do this. Like, ever.

Of course, this bank is large enough that we run three full days (and a little) off a full charge without the wind or solar. So I'm running out of hot water before I'm running out of batteries anyway. My wind generator would just make that worse...

 

 

 

* For the curious, to get the ROI I figured 1,100 genset hrs/year for AGMs (this is a real numebr...I put 2,200 hours on my first two years with the new genset), 450 estimated for LFP. Then you get:


Genset Wear & Tear: $1,300/ year (based on 10,000 replacement life, hours saved/year with cost of replacement around $20K = $2/hour of run time)
Fuel Savings: $975/year, based on  1.5L/hr saved, $1.00/L diesel cost.
Oil Changes etc: $115/year.  At every 200 hours, I'd be saving 3.25 charges/year

So that's $2,390/year in operational savings.

Then you also have to account for the $2,200/year I've spent on average replacing AGM's since 2012.

So that's $4,590/year I'm not spending with the new batteries.
$20,000/$4,590 = 4.35 years to recoup the costs. Round it up to 5-6 years, because it's a rough mathematical model and an estimate.

Of course, if you are using your batteries 50 days per year instead of 365 you will take a LOT longer to recoup that money.

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21 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Have you left Brisbane yet or staying there?

 

We're on the Gold Coast still. We're headed back to GCCM to haul out for bottom painting next week, and my daughter needs to take the SAT one more time before we leave. Not a single seat for that within nine hours driving time of Sydney on the Dec 2 test date, which is the final date she can get counted on college apps.

Then we head South.

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42 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Then we head South

Weather permitting start a day or so in front of the Sydney Hobart fleet and go to Tasmania. Getting passed by the fleet would be fun to watch plus give your AIS a good workout. Have to take Santa with you though. Good run then from their to NZ. Enjoy.

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10 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Weather permitting start a day or so in front of the Sydney Hobart fleet and go to Tasmania. Getting passed by the fleet would be fun to watch plus give your AIS a good workout. Have to take Santa with you though. Good run then from their to NZ. Enjoy.

I had often thought of a cruising fleet starting Christmas morning in Sydney, headed to Hobart for New Years.

A beach start at Balmoral after breakfast at Bathers, end up at Peppermint Bay...

 

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On 28/10/2017 at 10:35 AM, thebook said:

what are my options on house batteries? any recomendations?

Thanks in advance

Bet you didn't think this OP of yours would have the Butterfly Effect: That is not a hurricane in China being caused by a butterfly flapping its wings in New Mexico, but the dreaded LA v LFP War of Words. :-)

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13 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

A beach start at Balmoral after breakfast at Bathers, end up at Peppermint Bay...

 

8 minutes ago, savoir said:

A Le Mans start for a cruising race ?  Oh the possibilities for mayhem !

Also include multi's, bragging rights for those that survive to beat race boats to the other end ..etc. Could be an epic piss-up weather permitting.

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54 minutes ago, savoir said:

FWIW, I just arrived back in Sydney. Let me know if you stop by Manly or Rozelle. Pittwater is out.

Will do. Look forward to catching up.

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35 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Weather permitting start a day or so in front of the Sydney Hobart fleet and go to Tasmania. Getting passed by the fleet would be fun to watch plus give your AIS a good workout. Have to take Santa with you though. Good run then from their to NZ. Enjoy.

We'll have Will with us, we can't do that. 

We're figuring a quiet Christmas in the Pittwater, then a plunge into the madness on NYE again in Sydney Harbour before he has to fly back a couple of days later.

Though it would be cool to have the fleet sail over us.

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Of course, multis are in.

its a bring what you have sort of deal, no organisation so the liability issues are all with the skippers.

we meet at Bathers Christmas morning, and again at Peppermint Bay for lunch on January 1.

thats it.

plenty of room to hang around in the channel if you get in early, move up to Hobart as the race boats pull out.

 

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

For the curious, to get the ROI I figured

BJ I would have to dig up the workings but LFP beats LA hands down on a kWH basis in a period with one changeover of AGM's & some LFP charge modifications before any operating cost advantages of LFP. Your 24/7 application where you seldom see a AC shore power cord is a no brainer.

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20 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Also include multi's, bragging rights for those that survive to beat race boats to the other end ..etc. Could be an epic piss-up weather permitting.

 

Carry the missus down the beach to the dink, missus has to row out, crew has to chug a beer, then the race starts . . . . . many possibilities.

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

BJ I would have to dig up the workings but LFP beats LA hands down on a kWH basis in a period with one changeover of AGM's & some LFP charge modifications before any operating cost advantages of LFP. Your 24/7 application where you seldom see a AC shore power cord is a no brainer.

Yeah, one of the guys I used in my research did all that math...he figured that something like (Ah x cycle life)/$Cost, AGMs and LFP worked out to about the same cost per unit of Ah cycle life.

But the cycles are fewer and more far between, plus many other benefits.

I think it was this study.

https://marazuladventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/diy-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries8.pdf

 

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There are ample examples out there of 30-60 ft cruisers with AGM/lead acid type set-ups that can run the frigo, lights, electronics, auto-pilot, and stereo for 3 or 4 days before running a re-charge. Some boats are more power hungry than others. Variables range from the insulation in the frigo...to how easily driven the hull is and how hard the rudder has to work when being auto-piloted...electric winches...to running l.e.d. lights...and on to basic lifestyle choices...etc. etc.

It will be interesting to see how lithium batteries last under a variety of marine uses now and in the future.. Are they more open to user error or electronic failure(of the monitoring systems) than lead acid? I don't know the answer to that, but I'll say this. As an end user, I just want the 'set it and forget it' best solution. 

A couple of things...I've found, that if you are nice to your batteries they will be nice back. A smart charger, in my case, helps me seem nice when oversight might make my batteries think I'm being nasty. And also, the more you oversize your bank for your needs the less frequently you'll have to recharge(and less % you'll draw down on the house). This is important to consider when doing the numbers. I also think that not all AGM/lead acid are created equal. I use to swap out batteries every few years but since I switched to Lifelines w a sophisticated smart charger its been 8 years and still purring.(proviso my mileage is not year round)

This, from a not so technical and somewhat more anecdotal point of view.

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1 hour ago, savoir said:

 

Carry the missus down the beach to the dink, missus has to row out, crew has to chug a beer, then the race starts . . . . . many possibilities.

 

mmm..sav so included in the contest is how the wives sucessfully get back ashore without drowning or does everyone have to leave their dingy behind or alternatively are rich guys at an immediate advantage on this score by happening to own two dingys? If dingy stays with the boat and I was a poor guys wife I would be very worried about his generous topping up of my champagne and orange drinks at breakfast and therefore insist on going to Tassie. The SI's for this tour could be an interesting read.

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

It will be interesting to see how lithium batteries last under a variety of marine uses now and in the future..

Fufmeister a very valid question. 

LFP has been on the marine highway now for around 8+ years. The variety of sailboat applications with LFP and a traditional auxilliary engine (with and without renewable charge sources) in this period is extremely broad from RTW race boats to performance expedition cruisers. The link between those two usage extremes is having larger than basic loads and or they tend to be both fossil fuel tankage and or renewable energy poor with regard to their application and power requirements. There is also a plethora of uses in the middle, including some one-offs, a list too large to note here. I have experience with a sampling. The words "Lead is Dead" seems to eminate from those who have taken the plunge and in some cases keep plunging in.

I am unaware of one failure to date with a properly engineered and operated system. That failure excludes things that the operator can/could correct, if prepared accordingly such as replacing a faulty cell board if it is not a sealed battery pack. That failure rate includes proper DIY builds to the best of my knowledge. The above knowledge is spread over more than one continent as remarkably it is a very tight community on both the professional installer and user side. That said I don't have a mortgage on knowledge of LFP failures.

I am aware of instances where modifications have been made to and operator failure associated some big name vendor products, and in even earlier days of LFP some mistakes, now corrected by those vendors. That is the good news.

The bad news is instances of LFP failure IMHO are going to increase dramatically in the Marine & RV world shortly, if not already happening. 

Going LFP requires a holistic approach that considers usuage opportunities and constraints being measured against charging opportunities and actual loads. Then you have to operate it in accord with specifications. To not do that you are  potentially wasting  your money.

So you don't have to be Einstein to see that unscrupulous vendors marketing LFP as a "drop-in" replacement to LA chemistry is something which is going to end in tears. The number of on-line vendors in this category in particular has exploded in the last 2 years, particularly in the US. Their Q&A promises make TQA's misguided musings on LFP above to be one of a expert. 

The closest analogy to back up my pessimistic opinion about LFP is what happened to GEL battery chemistry some 40 years ago. It was marketed in exactly the same "drop-in" way to replacing flooded LA. The net result being voltage sensitive is they died by the truckload giving GEL a bad name. The net result is they fell out of favour and became very expensive through lack of demand compared to other SLA chemisties like AGM and Calcium derivatives. GEL to this day is still probably top of the pile of all LA chemistries, with only the advent of the carbon foam Firefly (with it's partial charge no capacity loss characteristics) to knock it off that LA top perch.  However it won't while it continues to have supply reliability problems and only offers a single size format, and therefore won't get the acceptance and market penetration it deserves.

The cure to exterminating these "drop-in" get rich pricks is one of adopting the same approach that wiped out the Buffalo herds of the American mid west to get rid of the pesky Indian problem.  That is the Winchester is now in the form of the ABYC Standards for lithium batteries in marine craft . It has been known these dodgy LFP offerings have been on the ABYC's hit list for quite a while now, yet those Standards are yet to be released. I don't quite understand that delay. 

Some might think the ABYC Standards are US centric so how is that going to stop their spread outside the US? The answer is simple. Most countries standards have regard to ABYC Standards either directly or indirectly. The reason is they are bloody good, work, are practical and are reasonable. This is largely on account of US industry professionals who volunteer their time to guide their drafting. Hats off to them. Therefore adoption for LFP instalations standards will spread worldwide like wildfire and with the marine insurance industry right on top of that, if not already.

Once those ABYC Standards for LFP kick in, Buffalo will be off the menu once and for all.

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That was 6 down votes from the same gutless troll in this one thread and 4 in another in the space of a minute..I'm so glad you're wasting your time dickhead, then again you probably have plenty of time on your hands. Don't forget this one now Mr Idiot.

PS. You got it..mate you are a friggin genius, there is a trillion more that even a fool like you can find so keep up the good work.

 

 

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

mmm..sav so included in the contest is how the wives sucessfully get back ashore without drowning or does everyone have to leave their dingy behind or alternatively are rich guys at an immediate advantage on this score by happening to own two dingys? If dingy stays with the boat and I was a poor guys wife I would be very worried about his generous topping up of my champagne and orange drinks at breakfast and therefore insist on going to Tassie. The SI's for this tour could be an interesting read.

Well you see Jack, racing a cruiser is an equal opportunity sport so it would be expected that the missus is part of the crew and departs with the boat. In addition because we here at CA are not members of the Morals Police all othercrews are prohibited from protesting the ( lack of ) provenance of said missus.  The dink would also be hauled aboard.

I can see the annual CA Balmoral - somewhere in Tassie race turning into something huge.

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1 hour ago, savoir said:

I can see the annual CA Balmoral - somewhere in Tassie race turning into something huge.

Looks good lads. I just hope you appreciate my post here because by doing so my little interlectually challenged trolling friend will be along shortly to down vote me yet again. He is probably just having a rest right now, worn out after trolling every recent post I've made using his handlers computer.

PS. Spoke to soon just hit me down again in a week old thread. He really is an ace detective. Maybe he is going doggo on this post to now try and hide his tracks? 

1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

Here is somewhere in Tassie

https://peppermintbay.com.au/

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8 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:
19 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Thanks for the reasoned description and real-world numbers. Beats the heck out of saying IGNORE LITHIUM

 

You really should ignore his entire post.

Apparently, I'm just a victim. Am I being battery-shamed????

FB- Doug

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27 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Apparently, I'm just a victim. Am I being battery-shamed????

FB- Doug

Depends. What are you packing? I've got 17kW...

 

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