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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
southerncross

VOR Leg 2 Lisbon to Cape Town

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31 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

    2 hours ago, Herman said:

Nice squall action pic from AKZO

"had to jump up in my underwear to help deal with shit, got so wet it didn't matter anyway"

You are sure that's Akzo? Did Bomby jump ship? Good swimmer in his underwear ?

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Lots of good stuff in Bouwe blog

Quote

The last 24 hours have been full of activities. Sail changes to match the conditions, and hopefully getting it right when one of the 
frequent squalls is hitting you. We have done allright performance wise, slowly clawing back into vestas and mapfre. Dongfeng seems to be slippery in this tight reaching. Akzo barely hanging on in this group, now barely can see their "headlights". Once we passed 3 North, we had to drop our science buoy for NOAA, the american weather and research department. We don't know what the buoy is measuring, but can imagine it will help NOAA getting a better understanding of how and when Hurricanes develop, as we are in the birth chamber of these monster right here. So our OBR did his required filming, breaking the seals, making shots of the GPS and the sending the buoy off into the blue ocean.

Now I am sitting in the navstation holding a close eye on the chart, as amazingly enough there is tiny rock formation on our track, actually just to leeward ;-) Probably not many people realize that 9 rocks stick out of the ocean, while around there are waterdepths of over 4000 
meters, it is like the Mont Blanc rising up in the middle of this.

67 miles to the equator, where some of us will get a nice surprise party!

Media (text under tough conditions, 2nd language poor English, OBR challenges)

Tech (NOAA, zooming, tracker showing shoals)

Social (Dong bashing, emoticons, american contributions)

Can't believe I didn't check the course to look for Vestas possibilities.

Problem: Anyone interested in discussing here? Or need for an alternative thread for stuff the main thread would rather see elsewhere?.

Alt thread needed? Cheers

 

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Looking at the tracker data 09.48 this morning.

Some of the numbers when comparing Course to TWD and TWA don't add. up, some do. I appreciate Course and Heading are not the same thing.

Take DF and MAPF who are pretty much in the same piece of water so I'm assuming any leeway (probably not significant) or current would be the same for both.

DF  Course 197,  TWD 123,  TWA -75 or by calculation -74 so almost bang on.

MAPF Course 199,  TWD 125,  TWA -84 or by claculation  -74 so 10 degrees different.

Now of course these numbers are only a snapshot but I,m interested in what might account for the differences. The only thing I can think of is damping or frequency of update being set differently for the different pieces of information.

Any thoughts?

Link to the dashboard.

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/dashboard.html

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29 minutes ago, stief said:

Lots of good stuff in Bouwe blog

Media (text under tough conditions, 2nd language poor English, OBR challenges)

Tech (NOAA, zooming, tracker showing shoals)

Social (Dong bashing, emoticons, american contributions)

Can't believe I didn't check the course to look for Vestas possibilities.

Problem: Anyone interested in discussing here? Or need for an alternative thread for stuff the main thread would rather see elsewhere?.

Alt thread needed? Cheers

 

Maybe stay here and start another thread later if things go way off topic?

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1 hour ago, Fiji Flaky said:

You are sure that's Akzo? Did Bomby jump ship? Good swimmer in his underwear ?

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

That is the Dee machine, not the Paintwagon

I stand corrected, I read the "AKZO" on the boom but that's a sponsorship logo. 

 

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On 11/11/2017 at 11:27 AM, Miffy said:

If the race wasn't OD and you had a steel traditional hull you can probably elect to bash your way to Cape Town and risk mutiny, but I think only a purely numbers guy would take that route even if Adrena is saying it could work out. 

 

On 11/11/2017 at 12:12 PM, Fiji Flaky said:

Been scratching my flaky head for a while too.

In the Whitbread days, when boats where from Aluminum or Fiberglass, and men where from Steel, they did exactly that, a long bash straight to Cape Town. And they did usually beat the fifi's who took the traditional Clipper route to the West.

 

Bash to Cap Town.jpg

 

On 11/11/2017 at 12:16 PM, jack_sparrow said:

You scratched too deep and removed something to come up with that :-)

 

18 hours ago, southerncross said:

For Fiji

 

 

16 hours ago, Miffy said:

https://twitter.com/RaceExperts/status/929734565329014786

Nice to see an older Race Expert who knows the history, talks about it - and not making up suspense re direct upwind to Cape Town.

 

13 hours ago, Herman said:

As this older Dutchman in RC has done the Whitbread 3 times, I’m not too surprised :D

His name is Peter Tans.

 

OK, let's get this straight. I know you guys are all experts here, and have probably done this route many times. I respect that.

I do read all the books that those silly boat people here in Fiji leave behind, search the internet, and watch all the old videos on Youtube. I also just graduated from the Oppies to the Lasers. So my knowledge is somewhat limited, and hope you respect that too.

Now, that Peter Af Tans is hard to understand with his cloggy accent and the low volume on Twitter, but I can clearly hear him say:

"In the past the boats went straight from ...?  to Cape Town, beating 2-3000 miles into the SE-Trades, that was pretty much a horror show."

So, are you guys deaf, or daft ?  And blind, because he even draws the same rhumbline as me. In fact I think he reacted to me mentioning the men of steel because he probably bashed into those trades for a couple of weeks on Equity&Law 2 in 1989 !

So, go and check the history books, or tell me what I am missing here. You are welcome !

5a0985b7ae121_capetownbashintotrades.jpg.7ec5d6d6248fa5647cb0629182dae49f.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Fiji Flaky said:

OK, let's get this straight. I know you guys are all experts here, and have probably done this route many times. I respect that.

I do read all the books that those silly boat people here in Fiji leave behind, search the internet, and watch all the old videos on Youtube. I also just graduated from the Oppies to the Lasers. So my knowledge is somewhat limited, and hope you respect that too.

Now, that Peter Af Tans is hard to understand with his cloggy accent and the low volume on Twitter, but I can clearly hear him say:

"In the past the boats went straight from ...?  to Cape Town, beating 2-3000 miles into the SE-Trades, that was pretty much a horror show."

So, are you guys deaf, or daft ?  And blind, because he even draws the same rhumbline as me. In fact I think he reacted to me mentioning the men of steel because he probably bashed into those trades for a couple of weeks on Equity&Law 2 in 1989 !

So, go and check the history books, or tell me what I am missing here. You are welcome !

So making sure we understand your question are you wondering why the boats shouldn't take the shorter upwind route?

PS I've never sailed anything like this distance.......

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And here a bonus history lesson for tonight:

 sports tops?  Who wants a frigging sports top?

Image result for tracy edwards whitbread

Tracy Edwards, then 22, steered the Maiden to a second place finish in the around the world race in 1989 CREDIT: ROGER ALLEN

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50 minutes ago, stief said:

Lots of good stuff in Bouwe blog

Media (text under tough conditions, 2nd language poor English, OBR challenges)

Tech (NOAA, zooming, tracker showing shoals)

Social (Dong bashing, emoticons, american contributions)

Can't believe I didn't check the course to look for Vestas possibilities.

Problem: Anyone interested in discussing here? Or need for an alternative thread for stuff the main thread would rather see elsewhere?.

Alt thread needed? Cheers

 

Agree with Roger, if it's way offtopic (share your top 3 recipes in de galley) start another thread.

Regarding the Arquipélago de São Pedro e São Paulo, most important is that the real navigators all saw it. I missed those 9 rocks too in the previous edition but now noted the ENC light from the lighthouse on the map after zooming in. The light has a range of up to 15 nm. It looks like Akzo had the bear away a bit, sailing past the rocks at 2 nm if their track is properly represented. No photo's AFAIK.

zoom 6.jpg

Archipel.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Fiji Flaky said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, let's get this straight. I know you guys are all experts here, and have probably done this route many times. I respect that.

I do read all the books that those silly boat people here in Fiji leave behind, search the internet, and watch all the old videos on Youtube. I also just graduated from the Oppies to the Lasers. So my knowledge is somewhat limited, and hope you respect that too.

Now, that Peter Af Tans is hard to understand with his cloggy accent and the low volume on Twitter, but I can clearly hear him say:

"In the past the boats went straight from ...?  to Cape Town, beating 2-3000 miles into the SE-Trades, that was pretty much a horror show."

So, are you guys deaf, or daft ?  And blind, because he even draws the same rhumbline as me. In fact I think he reacted to me mentioning the men of steel because he probably bashed into those trades for a couple of weeks on Equity&Law 2 in 1989 !

So, go and check the history books, or tell me what I am missing here. You are welcome !

5a0985b7ae121_capetownbashintotrades.jpg.7ec5d6d6248fa5647cb0629182dae49f.jpg

 

How do you read and watch that video and miss the point re boats are different now? Upwind downwind - as long as they were fully powered up, the old displacement hulls didn't have a huge performance difference that would make a longer distance beam/downwind route faster. 

Modern hulls and boats are light and beamy. They plane. They can do 20-30knots. IOW they can sail double the distance and still come out on top because the boat is faster and stays in the 300-400nm per day range vs the round strong hulls of yore that bash 150-200. 

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Fiji, can see that took time to link gathered the discussion in one spot.

Big mistake is saying or thinking "I know you guys are all experts here". What were you thinking! ;) That'd be a tough one to document and support.

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7 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

So making sure we understand your question are you wondering why the boats shouldn't take the shorter upwind route?

PS I've never sailed anything like this distance.......

No, basically since the Whitbread 60's, the downwind performance is so much better. as Peter Tans says, that the longer so called Clipper route always pays.   And ahh, see Miffy's post above!

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19 minutes ago, Fiji Flaky said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, let's get this straight. I know you guys are all experts here, and have probably done this route many times. I respect that.

I do read all the books that those silly boat people here in Fiji leave behind, search the internet, and watch all the old videos on Youtube. I also just graduated from the Oppies to the Lasers. So my knowledge is somewhat limited, and hope you respect that too.

Now, that Peter Af Tans is hard to understand with his cloggy accent and the low volume on Twitter, but I can clearly hear him say:

"In the past the boats went straight from ...?  to Cape Town, beating 2-3000 miles into the SE-Trades, that was pretty much a horror show."

So, are you guys deaf, or daft ?  And blind, because he even draws the same rhumbline as me. In fact I think he reacted to me mentioning the men of steel because he probably bashed into those trades for a couple of weeks on Equity&Law 2 in 1989 !

So, go and check the history books, or tell me what I am missing here. You are welcome !

5a0985b7ae121_capetownbashintotrades.jpg.7ec5d6d6248fa5647cb0629182dae49f.jpg

 

6 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

How do you read and watch that video and miss the point re boats are different now? Upwind downwind - as long as they were fully powered up, the old displacement hulls didn't have a huge performance difference that would make a longer distance beam/downwind route faster. 

Modern hulls and boats are light and beamy. They plane. They can do 20-30knots. IOW they can sail double the distance and still come out on top because the boat is faster and stays in the 300-400nm per day range vs the round strong hulls of yore that bash 150-200. 

Point is, as has been made by Miffy, that the boat design & rigging and thus polars of the boats have changed considerably in the past decades. VMG is now the name of the game for the current VO65's compared to the old skool boats. It is quicker to reach around a HP than to beat upwind the shorter route. 

 

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1 minute ago, Fiji Flaky said:

No, basically since the Whitbread 60's, the downwind performance is so much better. as Peter Tans says, that the longer so called Clipper route always pays.   And ahh, see Miffy's post above!

I think most would agree so I'm struggling to understand your question.

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

Are you ESL?

English as Second Language? Jep.

Electronic Sports League? No.

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Just now, Herman said:

English as Second Language? Jep.

Electronic Sports League? No.

Sorry was meant for Fiji. It is like there's a language barrier where he reads a double negative where there isn't one. 

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9 minutes ago, Miffy said:

How do you read and watch that video and miss the point re boats are different now? Upwind downwind - as long as they were fully powered up, the old displacement hulls didn't have a huge performance difference that would make a longer distance beam/downwind route faster. 

Modern hulls and boats are light and beamy. They plane. They can do 20-30knots. IOW they can sail double the distance and still come out on top because the boat is faster and stays in the 300-400nm per day range vs the round strong hulls of yore that bash 150-200. 

No, I did not miss that point, I get that.

I was talking about "In the Whitbread days, when boats where from Aluminum or Fiberglass", ok?

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1 minute ago, Fiji Flaky said:

No, I did not miss that point, I get that.

I was talking about "In the Whitbread days, when boats where from Aluminum or Fiberglass", ok?

So please explain your point.

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3 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

How can I get the "Pro Mode" in the Tracker?

Scroll back up the thread. Search my posts for the last few days or Southerns since the beginning of the leg. You will find a link.

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8 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

How can I get the "Pro Mode" in the Tracker?

We keep those locked in the cupboard and out of reach so you don't hurt yourself.

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 7 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

How can I get the "Pro Mode" in the Tracker?

2 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

Scroll back up the thread. Search my posts for the last few days or Southerns since the beginning of the leg. You will find a link.

That Cunnilingus4ever keeps popping up, I was on his ignore list he promised me 2 days ago. O well :rolleyes:.

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14 minutes ago, stief said:

Fiji, can see that took time to link gathered the discussion in one spot.

Big mistake is saying or thinking "I know you guys are all experts here". What were you thinking! ;) That'd be a tough one to document and support.

Suppose I should have said "many of you", or use ;)

And quite honestly you, and many here, really do know a lot and make great contributions. Thank you all!

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Quite an amazing performance from Ali over the last 8 days - on the 5th November he won the day and now he is -224.

I think this might explain his doom laden attitude towards DF as in his mind he has linked them to himself and therefore expects them to perform in the same way.

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54 minutes ago, Herman said:

Agree with Roger, if it's way offtopic (share your top 3 recipes in de galley) start another thread.

Regarding the Arquipélago de São Pedro e São Paulo, most important is that the real navigators all saw it. I missed those 9 rocks too in the previous edition but now noted the ENC light from the lighthouse on the map after zooming in. The light has a range of up to 15 nm. It looks like Akzo had the bear away a bit, sailing past the rocks at 2 nm if their track is properly represented. No photo's AFAIK.

Agree too. Got it.  The alt-thread idea is a bit different, though. A way we can say "take it alt-thread."  Bouwe's blog looked to have lots for "alt-thread' requests. We'll see

Back on track(ers), I thought I saw something on the tracker when zoomed out too (may have been in leaflet mode, didn't really pay attention), so thanks for that screenie. Need to check further on Forss' latest. 

Pro software fixes this case now, of course. CPN too? Can't tell, from your screenies. Would be impressive, if the 'free' Squid plug-in in handles this case. Cheers.

[edit; spelling, Forss, of course. I'm having an ESL moment. Oops : "EAL" (English as an additional language is now PC]

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17 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

So please explain your point.

Sorry Roge, I forgot .... 

No, seriously, the whole post was in response to various somewhat snarky comments about the "Man of steel" route vs the "fiffy" route of the pro's of today. And then Peter Tans jumped in too. That's all really.

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3 minutes ago, stief said:

Pro software fixes this case now, of course. CPN too? Can't tell, from your screenies.

The vectormap CM93 I use for ocean racing naviguessing is dated before Vestas meets Cargados Shoals. I had to zoom in to see that there was an ENC light, let alone the rocks themselves which needer further zooming. But ENC’s have been adjusted since that accident, in order to better prevent that kind of zoom-stuff from happening again.

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1 minute ago, Fiji Flaky said:

Sorry Roge, I forgot .... 

No, seriously, the whole post was in response to various somewhat snarky comments about the "Man of steel" route vs the "fiffy" route of the pro's of today. And then Peter Tans jumped in too. That's all really.

Amazing the development really - The clipper ships used to sail the long way because they couldn't sail upwind - then we worked that bit out - then moved on to fast reaching/ downwind so the long route came back. What next I wonder - Foilers that sail sooo fast upwind such that the shorter route comes back into play. I'd be surprised but never say never....

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59 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Are you ESL?

I am ADHDESL...

In the Rimas Round the World thread (a race to nowhere), they all argued that I was a Merican sock.

English is almost the 1st language here, and we like fucking rappers, like Chris Brown.

56 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Sorry was meant for Fiji. It is like there's a language barrier where he reads a double negative where there isn't one. 

You are referring to " and not making up suspense re direct upwind to Cape Town." ?

I read that like: "not making up things re direct upwind to Cape Town", while you probably ment "leaves no doubt" ? 

Sorry for that, my bad.
 

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1 hour ago, Fiji Flaky said:

So, are you guys deaf, or daft ?  And blind, because he even draws the same rhumbline as me. In fact I think he reacted to me mentioning the men of steel because he probably bashed into those trades for a couple of weeks on Equity&Law 2 in 1989 !

So, go and check the history books, or tell me what I am missing here. You are welcome !

For just starters that for nearly 20 years prior to 1997/98 (btw the second outing for the W60) the first leg of the Whitbread finished in Uruguay not Cape Town including 1989.

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

For just starters that for the 20 years prior to 1988/89 (btw the second outing for the W60) the first leg of the Whitbread finished in Uruguay not Cape Town.

Hey SOF, you are all mixed up, are you OK?

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13 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

For just starters that for the 20 years prior to 1998/99 (btw the second outing for the W60) the first leg of the Whitbread finished in Uruguay not Cape Town.

You might mean the 97-98 race 1st leg Southampton to Cape Town. A minor point.

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23 minutes ago, forss said:

It is also possible to change between ECMWF/GFS Models in bottom right on ECMWF 9km / GFS 22km buttons

ecmwf.PNG.b74162cd18bdd7cbd61cea565e8d90cc.PNG

gfs.PNG.6c97158e07b92890d829cf1514712007.PNG

 

https://gis.ee/vor/

Routing is powered by Squid Sailing!

@forss has again exceeded himself by adding routing again, with the help from Remora/Squid/Great Circle. Thumbs up for them!

Question for forrs; are the individual boat polars adjusted for boat handling/trimming as calculated up thread earlier by @LionessRacing, as I have suggested? Or all on plain vanilla VO65 polars? 

PS: the weather routing starts to look really different now looking 168 hrs ahead, a lateral separation of > 200 nm and a flyer for SHKS & TTToW far west. DFRT and Mapfre sticking like glue together. What is a very likely scenario with the current 7 nm lateral separation which is within the 9 nm granularity of the EMWCS forecast.

 

routing 168 hrs ahead.png

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

You posted as I edited.

Very good - Important we do our best to be accurate..

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14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Question for forrs; are the individual boat polars adjusted for boat handling/trimming as calculated up thread earlier by @LionessRacing, as I have suggested? Or all on plain vanilla VO65 polars? 

That forrs is a workhorse. Herman wouldn't it be very subjective to apply a + or - % to individual team polars based on what they have exibited so far, not to mention scewing the outcome. The rich would get richer and the poor go out the backdoor.

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18 minutes ago, Fiji Flaky said:

Hey SOF, you are all mixed up, are you OK?

It was worth looking that acronym up, and I sure do try not to get mental images of that one with Jack's mother involved too :lol:

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1 hour ago, Fiji Flaky said:

Suppose I should have said "many of you", or use ;)

And quite honestly you, and many here, really do know a lot and make great contributions. Thank you all!

Umm, no need to be snarky. My contributions are more like "feed the tapeworm or it'll feed on you."  Price we pay for the best way to follow ocean races. Please, no reply. A flick up or down (I'm trying to stay at zero) is sufficient. Thanks

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That forrs is a workhorse. Herman wouldn't it be very subjective to apply a + or - % to individual team polars based on what they have exibited so far, not to mention scewing the outcome. The rich would get richer and the poor go out the backdoor.

Self quote in a private message thread: "We will have to check regularly if the efficiency has gone up, what can be expected over time as the new crews get to know their boat better and work together better." But it is plain vanilla polars for everyone now.

 

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Quick aside re the islets that Bouwe was careful to avoid.

Quote

The islets expose serpentinized abyssal mantle peridotite and kaersutite-bearing ultramafic mylonite atop the world's highest and yet only second largest megamullion (after the Parece Vela megamullion under Okinotorishima in the Pacific Ocean). This grouping is the sole location in the Atlantic Ocean where the abyssal mantle is exposed above sea level.[4]

Thought JS might appreciate the possibilities.

off to the Live.

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14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Self quote in a private message thread: "We will have to check regularly if the efficiency has gone up, what can be expected over time as the new crews get to know their boat better and work together better." But it is plain vanilla polars for everyone now.

 

If you are just doing a fleet route or even say just the front runners then vanilla won't make a lot of difference. That said some polar weaking might be the difference between say making the station down south to catch a train eastward or missing it entirely. 

On the other hand doing routes for individual boats then any polar tweaking based on results to date would be very subjective. For instance Brunel finally in the groove now, yet their results since Spain would have them tweaked back.

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13 minutes ago, stief said:

Quick aside re the islets that Bouwe was careful to avoid.

Thought JS might appreciate the possibilities.

off to the Live.

I try and stay away from megamullions in the ocean stiffler. 

The Live tomorrow with the banter between the Dong and Mapfree will be interesting, though a bit premature of Conrad to think those two will be still in the lead in 24 hours :-)

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Thanks for calling me stiffler. Soffler more like it at my age, sigh.

Yesterday's Live was the best yet. Conrad's writing was the real treat following him in his BWR and the VG. Sheesh. Proven world class sailor, writes about real sailing better than most novelists, then yesterday turns around and gives a master class in teaching science. His bicycle wheel/doldrum  Live was, meh, OK, but yesterday's should go into his CV. 

Fully expect to see a major sponsor who wants to get their message out effectively grapple him to their bosom with hoops of steel before he gets away.

As for the drag race, looks like currents won't be a factor. So sweet to be able to get such a quick check :)

5a09b2d27668f_ScreenShot2017-11-13at8_46_13AM.png.a11a89aad62367e34d6ffcb231af6362.png

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Something to think about - while I'm not a tech wizard, using Adrena on the boat there's really no reason not to be constantly building the polar averages and integrate them after every shift change (provided there were no misc events). Data captains compare shifts to see which crew is doing what. 

But from navs PoV, predictability is as important for routing as being able to compare boats. Will be nuts not to use Adrena for what it is good for if the data instruments are all being integrated anyway. 

Boats that don't update polars constantly will have a vicious cycle of frustration. Nav says put us here. Crew says we missed the weather or the weather was wrong. Repeat. 

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

LOL. A Strip Chart Duel at 0600. Come armed with excuses.

You laugh. I've heard horror stories of weekend warriors with a MD day job telling his crew aka boat slaves when to tack while sitting at his nav station below with full confidence that his GPS and mark coordinates provided by the race committee was accurate. They missed the mark. Not the captain's fault. Always the crew. 

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Think I read somewhere (Windy forums?) that the wave layers are new. Will be interesting to compare to what the boats report in the southern ocean. IIRC, the VOR fleet will also be deploying more buoys there too.

On polars and pro nav software and tools for boat captains, with Geovoile and Great Circle working closely with the VOR, and partners, there's still time to see if  the OD and Digital First policy will further erode the need for traditional secretiveness. Makes this aspect of the race also interesting to follow.

Or not :)

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Just now, stief said:

Think I read somewhere (Windy forums?) that the wave layers are new.

Yes new.  Nice tool for local surf.

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Just now, stief said:

Ah, you tried it? Any sense of its accuracy?

Yes. Worked pretty well.  I just used it on Saturday at one locale so we'll see.

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

That forrs is a workhorse. Herman wouldn't it be very subjective to apply a + or - % to individual team polars based on what they have exibited so far, not to mention scewing the outcome. The rich would get richer and the poor go out the backdoor.

So the obvious feature request is to have a user adjust on the polars, so one can apply your own "windage" to account for prejudices and biases. 

If for example you believe that DongFeng will be faster on average you could modulate and see if that would suggest a different routing...

Not sure how to model the "WTF we might as well take a flyer" factor... 

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Why? Your premise is flawed because the boats are One Design. Even if you believe Dongfeng has a 1% speed advantage (which, no, they don't, otherwise they'd be 30-40 miles ahead of the fleet right now) you would see no functional difference by modeling at the .05% level which is roughly the difference they've shown so far in this leg. 

 

Might as well ask  "Forss, would you add the Soviet ballistic missile submarine Red October into the routing options in the tracker? I'd like to see how the Silent Caterpillar drive does against a VO65... "

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you are just doing a fleet route or even say just the front runners then vanilla won't make a lot of difference. That said some polar weaking might be the difference between say making the station down south to catch a train eastward or missing it entirely. 

On the other hand doing routes for individual boats then any polar tweaking based on results to date would be very subjective. For instance Brunel finally in the groove now, yet their results since Spain would have them tweaked back.

I don't call it naviguessing for nothing, it's not an absolute science. Far from it. Lots and lots of uncertainty, and a lot of subjectivity too indeed regarding what assumptions including polars to use, the validation and interpretation of the results etc etc.

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15 minutes ago, A-NU-START said:

Why? Your premise is flawed because the boats are One Design. Even if you believe Dongfeng has a 1% speed advantage (which, no, they don't, otherwise they'd be 30-40 miles ahead of the fleet right now) you would see no functional difference by modeling at the .05% level which is roughly the difference they've shown so far in this leg. 

The boats were built as one design. Assuming that they had Zero differences as delivered: 

  • They have been tuned by their crews, (more or less) during their initial and current sailing.
  • Their sail selections are a function of common design and manufacturing, yet will be affected by (mis)use 
  • One design boats, can be sailed consistently differently, whether by intention or by custom.
    • Some helms pinch, others foot,
    • Some trimmers are more aggressive others less
    • Some crews will stack faster/denser and press harder
  • As such a boat specific adjustment is not unreasonable. Before the race, the favorites were pretty well established, and they seem to be in the front during the longer legs. 
  • A minor difference in speed can be negated by screwups in handling or navigation; though the 6 hr position reports and AIS tracking makes the navigation more of an ensemble than a true differentiator, unless somebody takes a flyer. 
  • Blind luck of clouds/micro weather etc may be the determining factor 

Having said all that, different boats seem to do better at times. Allowing adjustment lets everyone diddle to their hearts content. 

 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

You laugh. I've heard horror stories of weekend warriors with a MD day job telling his crew aka boat slaves when to tack while sitting at his nav station below with full confidence that his GPS and mark coordinates provided by the race committee was accurate. They missed the mark. Not the captain's fault. Always the crew. 

Missing it ..Isn't that a good thing. :-)

Even when tired you need to tear yourself away from the station..take a tablet up top if need be. Wakes you up, you get a better feel for sea state  etc.. sometimes even see a sail change and different TWA before others. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Herman said:

Lots and lots of uncertainty, and a lot of subjectivity too indeed regarding what assumptions including polars to use, the validation and interpretation of the results etc etc.

If you haven't got that and targets sorted in the months beforehand and leaving the dock you shouldn't have left.

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Neptune is proud of you.

Jeremie Lecaudey/Volvo Ocean Race
13_02_171113_DFG_JRL_00169.jpg.3d6a278f3f18ac30f3816a5499a3e503.jpg

Martin Keruzore/Volvo Ocean Race
Me: :(
13_02_171113_VEH_MTK_00044.jpg.e9aad558b1fdec8cc2b425b3a5af1efe.jpg

Rich Edwards/Volvo Ocean Race
13_02_171113_BNL_RCE_00008.jpg.b21031843fab7584c4d4ad291029e888.jpg

James Blake/Volvo Ocean Race
13_02_171113_AZN_JSB_00038A.jpg.0566b0d5be8658f807f66408593f7156.jpg

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17 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

lets everyone diddle to their hearts content. 

 

As Kevin Spacey has shown us, this might not be the best course of action

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

So the obvious feature request is to have a user adjust on the polars, so one can apply your own "windage" to account for prejudices and biases. 

If for example you believe that DongFeng will be faster on average you could modulate and see if that would suggest a different routing...

Not sure how to model the "WTF we might as well take a flyer" factor... 

Alingh4evers brain would implode trying to apply that!! Well what little he has :lol:

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10 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

My suggestion for the next VOR would be providing data how much time each Helmsman is helming

Theodore says he is sick of filling in for you driving and wonders exactly what it is you do up front??

sailing_chipmunks_by_koolkatkaitlynaatc-d39bt13.jpg

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

For just starters that for nearly 20 years prior to 1997/98 (btw the second outing for the W60) the first leg of the Whitbread finished in Uruguay not Cape Town including 1989.

I have a hard time understanding your accent sometimes.

So just to qualify.  The first through fourth editions(73-74, 77-78, 81-82, 85-86) had the first leg finish at Cape Town.  The fifth and sixth (93-94 and 97-98) editions finished leg one at Punta Del Este.  There after they returned to Cape Town as the leg one finish until 2017. 

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2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

So the obvious feature request is to have a user adjust on the polars, so one can apply your own "windage" to account for prejudices and biases. 

If for example you believe that DongFeng will be faster on average you could modulate and see if that would suggest a different routing...

Not sure how to model the "WTF we might as well take a flyer" factor... 

A good comment regarding the option to adjust polars for the user. Don't know if forss has time to build that in Javascript.

 

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Interesting to compare the potential time delta between the first five and Plastic.

plastic v five comp.JPG

Plastic V five.JPG

Nice bit of software and all Hitch, but does it include Dust Mass, CO concentration and Dew Point overlays?  

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6 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Nice bit of software and all Hitch, but does it include Dust Mass, CO concentration and Dew Point overlays?  

I bet there's an app for that!

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21 hours ago, stief said:

And now a word from our sponsors :)

 

...okayyy,, what's that detail of..''one skipper made his team remove their appendix before the race''!!??  :o

....2:30 in the short video.

...a bit of bluster by VO?    ...did this actually happen?    and whythefack?..whodafack!??

 

...the long video is great,, it's a good way to introduce the VO to the Sheilah du Jour,,, and properly test their love whenya interrupt sunday morning worship to show 'em..   :rolleyes:

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

I bet there's an app for that!

There's a Fourier transform built in... to predict dominant shift period... 

 

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Just now, LionessRacing said:

There's a Fourier transform built in... to predict dominant shift period... 

 

In simple terms please explain..

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1 hour ago, A-NU-START said:

As Kevin Spacey has shown us, this might not be the best course of action

programmatic diddling allows for quantitative disputes. A whole 'nother realm of discussion, vs "cogit ergo FU" 

 

 

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