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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
southerncross

VOR Leg 2 Lisbon to Cape Town

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4 hours ago, Fiji Flaky said:

Chamberlain much ?

Ok if everybody ignores him, fine with me, but it's not for the Ed to decide that for us, we are grown ups. And we don't want fucking censoring, out of principle.

You should be happy. With A4E gone, you and Schakel now get a real shot at the “dumbest guy in the room” title!

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Akzo's move is a giant gamble but not sure how likely it is going to work. The weather models seem to agree they're sailing right towards the high pressure and prob will suffer by it. If I were a betting person I wouldn't gamble that Vestas, MAPFRE, DF and Brunel are all wrong. OTOH I guess if you are looking for a miracle that's the way to do it. Prob makes some stupid executives in AkzoNobel happy. 

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

Akzo's move is a giant gamble but not sure how likely it is going to work. The weather models seem to agree they're sailing right towards the high pressure and prob will suffer by it. If I were a betting person I wouldn't gamble that Vestas, MAPFRE, DF and Brunel are all wrong. OTOH I guess if you are looking for a miracle that's the way to do it. Prob makes some stupid executives in AkzoNobel happy. 

Or as Nicho referred to it as "another one of their silly mistakes".  Not going to be pretty IMHO if they stay this course.

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Regarding the various valid comments why the routing by Forss' tracker is not the same as the routing in the the official VOR tracker, I can tell that could be caused by:

1. Possible different start times used for the routings

2. Possible different weather models used

3. The current polars are very rough proxies atm and need to be tweaked. And as Forss is doing this in his own time, we have to be patient a bit.

Interesting to see atm that SHKS and TTToP are projected to take a flyer west on the official tracker. But as we don't have ETA's or time stamps, it's a mystery if it will crown them or kill them.

Off for dinner, no time for routing unfortunately.

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I've found that the Forss tracker is more dynamic and changes frequently (perhaps due to the 2 hour weather updates).  I don't believe the route on the VOR tracker changed at all yesterday.  The overlays and switching between ECMWF and GFS on the Forss tracker is helpful for the big picture.  Short of a new license for Expedition, it's the best it's been to date so I can't complain.  Seems like VOR are very open to improving it and on the fly.  They are both already much better than the trackers used in the French races.

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Seems like censorship is the theme of the day.

 

So, we all remember the raw video from Scallywag with the scrotum rash joke, right?   A couple of days after that, the Magenta project brought it up on their facebook page, asking if this was a nice way to promote the sport or not. They got mixed response, some people was of course offended by the joke and saying that this will stop all future recruiting of female sailors, while others said "hey, it's just their sense of humor, chill".

This morning, I was sad to read this on the Scallywag facebook page: " ''We’ve seen the mixed reaction to one of our posts from last week and taken it on board. While it was intended to be in good fun and the Scallywag spirit, we understand not everyone saw it the same way. The post has come down. We want our battles to be on the race course!’' "

 

:(

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5 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Seems like censorship is the theme of the day.

 

So, we all remember the raw video from Scallywag with the scrotum rash joke, right?   A couple of days after that, the Magenta project brought it up on their facebook page, asking if this was a nice way to promote the sport or not. They got mixed response, some people was of course offended by the joke and saying that this will stop all future recruiting of female sailors, while others said "hey, it's just their sense of humor, chill".

This morning, I was sad to read this on the Scallywag facebook page: " ''We’ve seen the mixed reaction to one of our posts from last week and taken it on board. While it was intended to be in good fun and the Scallywag spirit, we understand not everyone saw it the same way. The post has come down. We want our battles to be on the race course!’' "

 

:(

The people criticizing probably have never been offshore for any length of time.  And I'm sure there has been a lot left out and not filmed that might offend.  Hoping censorship does not undermine this Raw Content project.

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4 minutes ago, southerncross said:

The people criticizing probably have never been offshore for any length of time.  And I'm sure there has been a lot left out and not filmed that might offend.  Hoping censorship does not undermine this Raw Content project.

Eh some of the most vocal criticism came from magenta ppl. Diff sensibility and heightened sensitivity for some in the English speaking world because of all the high profile sexual harassment coming out of the US. 

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1 minute ago, southerncross said:

Sad.

Shrug. Humor and sexual harassment aren't mutually exclusive. If someone pointed a camera at you and asked you how do you brush your teeth it might be low brow humor. If someone did the same to Monica Lewinsky that's probably harassment. 

 

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5 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Maybe the underlying reason Witty didn't want a female on board - forced to check the crassness on shore.

That was basically Phil Harmer's argument with Abby. There's prob cultural and generational differences too. For a lot of the older more experienced women, they're simply tired of this shit and just want to sail well. It's probably why you see a diff in younger less experienced women who look at the camera awkwardly and smile. 

It's just part of being human and reading the room. Some people don't have that switch and call being polite or not an asshole - political correctness. But those are probably the same folks who'll dry hump a teenager on a day sail benefiting sexual assault survivors. 

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5 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Is it just me or did the criticizing post also disappear?

Guess Magenta wasn’t happy about how many women who said “chill”....

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1 minute ago, southerncross said:

@ Norbowgirl.  Did they have an issue with Liz Wardley's taking a dump over the side joke and demonstration?  

Of course not. I guess the think THAT will recruit more women. Cause you know, all things sailors do is to recruit women. 

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I don't know.  You're on the water for weeks, cold, sore, tired, burnt out. You're brain is in Queer Street (a boxing term that has nothing to do with sexuality so back off) and you blurt out nonsense, anything sometimes to lighten the mood and change the monotony.  Social Experiment indeed.  It will be tough sometimes to try and filter everything to please the sensibilities of those passive observers on shore.  Maybe each potentially offensive video should have a disclaimer at the beginning.  "View at your own risk."

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Magenta's mistake was probably not considering how Bes feels about it. TBF most of the sailing org directors and leadership are in Mexico and just spent a couple days talking about inclusion and sustainability. 

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Actually the most vocal criticism came from outside of the Magenta Project from the likes of Shirley Robertson. The Magenta Project queried if it was the right thing to show, whereas Shirley was loud in saying that it was a disgrace. 

The only issue I had with it was that Annamieke looked uncomfortable, but then Witty took the focus off her. I found it interesting that when another friend of mine complained about the video someone responded querying if it was acceptable for Dee to joke about the boys getting a 'back, sack and crack'...nobody answered that one.

In the UK there has been lots of news, and a few resignations, over inappropriate behaviour; maybe that is feeding the heightened awareness of what is deemed harassment (sexual or otherwise).

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1 minute ago, Potter said:

In the UK there has been lots of news, and a few resignations, over inappropriate behaviour;

Fueled by the explosion of sexual harassment in the US no doubt beginning earlier this year with Trump and today with Sen. Al Franken.

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The move East by Akzo reminds me of hopeless breakaways in the Tour de France.  Here's my point...  If they hold an Easterly position, because of the way the tracker waypoints work, they'll be listed at the top of the leaderboard for a few days even if they have no chance at winning.  That puts their sponsor's name at the top of the leaderboard for a few days.  My understanding of the TdF is that this is precisely why those guys go on those hopeless breakaways.  (I'm not talking about the TdF stages where the breakaway has a chance...  I'm talking about the stages where everyone knows they don't have a chance).  Yes, there's a chance something abnormal could happen and they could pull off the miracle stage win, but usually, it's to put your sponsor's name on camera for several hours.

So I'm wondering...  Does Akzo's navigator really think there's a chance of that move working?  Is he trying to gain some leverage that could, with some luck, produce gains?  Or is this just a TdF breakaway style attention grab for the sponsor (NTTAWWT)?

One might say...  it must be a real effort...  if they just wanted days atop the leaderboard, they'd have stayed much further East a long time ago (like the guys who have been leading the virtual race since Day 1).  But I don't think anyone would do that even if it was a sponsor attention grab.  There would be too much risk of finishing several days behind the fleet, which would have too much negative impact.  Whereas a little move like this can get days of "leading" without that kind of risk.

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[edit. responding to SC and above #late again ;) ]

Canada too, of course. (Latest )

Like the way Magenta handled the inherent problems with making Raw Content public. Respected lobby Magenta polls their followers and reacts accordingly. Scally respects that  and removes the vid. (thanks for those links, NorBow, and the example Potter).

Good test case that shows a way to mitigate some of the risks publishing Raw.

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7 hours ago, schakel488 said:

It's somehow impossible for VOR race management to have the positions not in Distance to Finish.

A waypoint somewhere in the southern tradewinds might give a better idea of the situation, but where?
Maybe Akzo is heading towards the best point to pick up the southern winds.
Maybe Dong Feng is.

.....it works just fine to measure from a point that's reasonably likely the boats will sail near,,, a few 100 miles ahead,, but keep it moving., but overall it's like how they describe sailing...'' moguls, but they're always moving'',,, but moreso with ocean currents, weather patterns, etc on a huge geography scale.   There'll never be a perfect way to keep track.... until they arrive in port.  :mellow:

 

5 hours ago, random said:

Maybe he upset a sponsor.

....perhaps,,, though his comment about Burling and Tuke was the last straw for some,,, seemed to be one of his last comments.....  

None. This place is just a place for me to attack New Zealanders Burling & Tuke. That's the most important thing for me because they illegally won the AC.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Here's a comparative routing to the finish between Df and Akzo.  Df with the advantage despite a greater distance of some 90nm.

Pretty much spot on to what Conrad called this morning.

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15 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

So I'm wondering...  Does Akzo's navigator really think there's a chance of that move working?  Is he trying to gain some leverage that could, with some luck, produce gains?  Or is this just a TdF breakaway style attention grab for the sponsor (NTTAWWT)?

I got the feeling from the video that they were frustrated by continually losing miles following the fleet and chose to risk a move that may add some miles. 

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7 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Pretty much spot on to what Conrad called this morning.

...meh,,, looks like a breakaway to the north of the high would be a.... very.   bad.   idea. 

              ...was hoping for some good drama,,, not a sacrifice.   :mellow:

 

 

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1 minute ago, couchsurfer said:

...meh,,, looks like a breakaway to the north of the high would be a.... very.   bad.   idea. 

              ...was hoping for some good drama,,, not a sacrifice.   :mellow:

 

 

Maybe Salter wants to get fired.

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6 minutes ago, couchsurfer said:

...meh,,, looks like a breakaway to the north would be a.... very.   bad.   idea.  :mellow:

 

 

Right. He agreed.  Bad move.  50 mile deficit.

Edit:  oops.  Read Hitchhikers post wrong.  Multitasking.

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31 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Maybe Salter wants to get fired.

...was thinking of yesterdays's routing shot of the tailenders heading over top of the high.  

 

...love the dimension that drone shots add.   http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/raw/2481.html

  Watching this,,  I am of firm belief that Witty's going to crack somehow,,, not make it through the full race. 

                         You read it here first.    :mellow:

 

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                                                   ...''gawrsh, you're right!   I AM growing hair on my palms!''  

m106894_crop110015_800x800_proportional_151085581712FC.jpg
 
   
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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

Guess Magenta wasn’t happy about how many women who said “chill”....

Seems to be a constant struggle to stay politically at all times, whether is gender, racial, religious.... and quite possibly people are overlooking the basis, that in different situations and with different people, things change. 

I’ve sailed on boats with more women than men at times, and the discussion they had about the men would have caused an outrage in a different scenario. 

Time, place and general understanding of the people you’re with goes a long way. 

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

Actually the most vocal criticism came from outside of the Magenta Project from the likes of Shirley Robertson. The Magenta Project queried if it was the right thing to show, whereas Shirley was loud in saying that it was a disgrace. 

The only issue I had with it was that Annamieke looked uncomfortable, but then Witty took the focus off her. I found it interesting that when another friend of mine complained about the video someone responded querying if it was acceptable for Dee to joke about the boys getting a 'back, sack and crack'...nobody answered that one.

In the UK there has been lots of news, and a few resignations, over inappropriate behaviour; maybe that is feeding the heightened awareness of what is deemed harassment (sexual or otherwise).

Exactly, some people will always find a reason to be upset. Offshore sailing is a world that 98% of the world population probably can’t relate to. 

In my experience, the women are quite happy to dish it out (as long as it’s in fun and the right company) and it just becomes a merry go round of banter. 

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1 hour ago, couchsurfer said:

.....it works just fine to measure from a point that's reasonably likely the boats will sail near,,, a few 100 miles ahead,, but keep it moving., but overall it's like how they describe sailing...'' moguls, but they're always moving'',,, but moreso with ocean currents, weather patterns, etc on a huge geography scale.   There'll never be a perfect way to keep track.... until they arrive in port.  :mellow:

 

....perhaps,,, though his comment about Burling and Tuke was the last straw for some,,, seemed to be one of his last comments.....  

None. This place is just a place for me to attack New Zealanders Burling & Tuke. That's the most important thing for me because they illegally won the AC.

 

I missed that little gem, how did he reach that conclusion? 

 

On second thoughts, don’t worry. It wouldn’t make any sense. 

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47 minutes ago, mad said:

I missed that little gem, how did he reach that conclusion? 

 

On second thoughts, don’t worry. It wouldn’t make any sense. 

You want some logic for A4E?  He never had any in AC and that just carried over to here.

A weird obsession.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Without comment:

 

1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

With comment:

Quite interesting. rewarding hour spent realizing that 'comment' referred to Niall's commentary. Thought it had something to do with germany :)

Thanks. Bonus was finding footage I had been looking for earlier (end of  the non-comment vid; about winches and that strange tool sliding on the shrouds)

Speaking of Germany and strange tools, did A4E ever post there? Had thought to recommend he go there, but still had enough tongue left to bite at that point. Cheers.

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5 minutes ago, stief said:

 

Quite interesting. rewarding hour spent realizing that 'comment' referred to Niall's commentary. Thought it had something to do with germany :)

Thanks. Bonus was finding footage I had been looking for earlier (end of  the non-comment vid; about winches and that strange tool sliding on the shrouds)

Speaking of Germany and strange tools, did A4E ever post there? Had thought to recommend he go there, but still had enough tongue left to bite at that point. Cheers.

Oops, thought comment and common tree are synonymous.

The German forum is almost nonexistent, so probably no A4E there.

James Blake/Volvo Ocean Race
13_02_171115_AZN_JSB_00046.thumb.jpg.2e490f7af346538211a1b8dfb9820b7a.jpg

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^^more 'drones win best new OBR tool'. Nice

Re older tool (text) and the topic of VS11's position, looks like SciFi is worth reading:

Quote

By Simon Fisher

If I'm honest, I've felt that we have been more like the fly than the windscreen in the last 24 hours. We had a tough time fending off Brunel and then eventually a large passing cloud forced a decent sized split between us

It was good for them, bad for us. The effects of the cloud, apart from the rain, light winds, and a less than stellar performance on the sched is that it has left us feeling a little bit lonely to leeward after what felt like many days of sailing with another boat only a couple of miles away.

It is fair to say that in the conditions we have encountered in the last couple of days Brunel has had something of a speed edge. However, on the upside it has offered us a tremendous opportunity to up our game, evaluate our setup, and we have learned some good lessons and made some improvements onboard. 

There is more to come, I'm sure. It was interesting to see when we were pushing each other the hardest, separated by only two miles, we were making good ground on the rest of the fleet. We have lost our tuning partner for now but now we need to maintain the same intensity despite our new-found solitude which has come as a relief for some and a cause of worry for others.

With all that said, though, we continue to be in good shape here onboard Vestas 11th Hour Racing. We are confident with what lies ahead will see us right back in the game and are looking forward to our opportunity to pounce. 

from here

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27 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Oops, thought comment and common tree are synonymous.

The German forum is almost nonexistent, so probably no A4E there.

James Blake/Volvo Ocean Race
13_02_171115_AZN_JSB_00046.thumb.jpg.2e490f7af346538211a1b8dfb9820b7a.jpg

Just checked: not there.

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2 hours ago, couchsurfer said:

 

                                           

                                                   ...''gawrsh, you're right!   I AM growing hair on my palms!''  

m106894_crop110015_800x800_proportional_151085581712FC.jpg
 
   

Oh my, the first picture of Bouwe smiling. What a difference with the other iconic  picture eating while sitting in the boat and wearing his boots where he looked old, tired and sick of it. Go Bouwe!

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^^ We have a new sock. Didn't take long. Sigh...

At least the avatar is a more accurate representation.

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4 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

Seems like censorship is the theme of the day.

 

So, we all remember the raw video from Scallywag with the scrotum rash joke, right?   A couple of days after that, the Magenta project brought it up on their facebook page,

asking if this was a nice way to promote the sport or not.           They got mixed response,              some people was of course offended by the joke and saying that this will stop

all future recruiting of female sailors, while others said "hey, it's just their sense of humor, chill".

This morning, I was sad to read this on the Scallywag facebook page: " ''We’ve seen the mixed reaction to one of our posts from last week and taken it on board. While it was intended to be in good fun and the Scallywag spirit, we understand not everyone saw it the same way. The post has come down. We want our battles to be on the race course!’' "

 

:(

NORBow, not particularly a question for you but please chip in...

Call me a misoginist  but to my mind it's not about having more in or outside genitals. No, more about can you squat off the back of a boat (we do to no.2)..

A bit base and oversimplified perhaps,, so to widen things out maybe we (the forum) should discuss in a broader sense?         

I'm delighted to see all the boats have some female crew this time around.

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In the broader context, idly wondered if the SCA sponsored an offshore tampon, safe to dispose at sea. Think I saw something about tampon disposal warning on an airplane bathroom: never followed up on how airlines deal with the issue. Do boats just bag, tag, and wait for port to dispose?

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9 minutes ago, stief said:

In the broader context, idly wondered if the SCA sponsored an offshore tampon, safe to dispose at sea. Think I saw something about tampon disposal warning on an airplane bathroom: never followed up on how airlines deal with the issue. Do boats just bag, tag, and wait for port to dispose?

Bag and dispose in port.  The weapon of choice for the ladies I've sailed with are those dogie doo bags.  The less translucent the better.

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11 minutes ago, stief said:

In the broader context, idly wondered if the SCA sponsored an offshore tampon, safe to dispose at sea. Think I saw something about tampon disposal warning on an airplane bathroom: never followed up on how airlines deal with the issue. Do boats just bag, tag, and wait for port to dispose?

Don’t know about the head on the VOR boats, but the Scallywags are used to having a head on their maxi where the pipes are to thin to handle poop. So if you want to go number two there you have to put a (recycled of course, and to dissolve in water) paper bag under your ass to collect it and then toss it in the ocean. 

Paper (and cotton) that dissolves in water must be a common thing by now? At least in the first world. 

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24 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

NORBow, not particularly a question for you but please chip in...

Call me a misoginist  but to my mind it's not about having more in or outside genitals. No, more about can you squat off the back of a boat (we do to no.2)..

A bit base and oversimplified perhaps,, so to widen things out maybe we (the forum) should discuss in a broader sense?         

I'm delighted to see all the boats have some female crew this time around.

Men usually are the ones with poor hamstring flexibility and end up defecating on the deck.

 

17 minutes ago, stief said:

In the broader context, idly wondered if the SCA sponsored an offshore tampon, safe to dispose at sea. Think I saw something about tampon disposal warning on an airplane bathroom: never followed up on how airlines deal with the issue. Do boats just bag, tag, and wait for port to dispose?


There are things called birth control pills these days - skip the placebo week and don't have to deal with it. Also works wonders with hormone regulation.

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4 hours ago, Miffy said:

Eh some of the most vocal criticism came from magenta ppl. Diff sensibility and heightened sensitivity for some in the English speaking world because of all the high profile sexual harassment coming out of the US. 

This stuff needs to come out but frankly it's getting a bit hysterical in the UK.

Bang on re "sensibility and sensitivity" as highlighted words.

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27 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

NORBow, not particularly a question for you but please chip in...

Call me a misoginist  but to my mind it's not about having more in or outside genitals. No, more about can you squat off the back of a boat (we do to no.2)..

A bit base and oversimplified perhaps,, so to widen things out maybe we (the forum) should discuss in a broader sense?         

I'm delighted to see all the boats have some female crew this time around.

But you do all your stuff from the back of the boat. Even if there are lots of boats right nearby, let’s say around the start line of a race. I must have seen thousand penises this summer. 

I just think it’s a fun part of racing but must admit I was a little surprised in my first race ;) 

but when the weather is rough, you too have to use the head, and even sit down. For safety reasons :)

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Swinging dicks on the start line.

Sounds like a tune.

”Swing yer dicks me lads.

Swing them to and fro.

For we’re off to to see a maiden,

In the great ‘ol Southern O.”

 

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If/ when there's a lull in the thread, wondered if anyone (Miffy?) might have ideas about alternatives the mods might have  to the nuclear option that was taken a little while ago to clean up the forum. 

Some of the options recently  turned on  are the licky's, allowing tweets/ Facebook pages/and more to be embedded, and the power to purge the site of a single poster very quickly (with some collateral damage). The German Anarchy site uses https://www.phpbb.com/ for their forum software. IIRC, this site used to use https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/ forum management software (CMS?).

Anyone know what software is currently being used? Trying to see what options the mods have rather than a heavy, unanarchic, censorship hammer.

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Hide (our own) is the new alternative to being able to delete our posts (with reason for a short while after posting). Like the new Hide someone's Signature line (or all). Would make sense that the mods can Hide much more. 

Thanks for the tip. Looking what other options may be possible.

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1 minute ago, stief said:

Hide (our own

Is it?  It's at he bottom of the page permanently.  There's another hide button that shows up on edit.

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Well! Thank you for yesterday then. Reading today was so much better. Cheers. I'll hide my above posts so they don't add clutter :)

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7 minutes ago, stief said:

Well! Thank you for yesterday then. Reading today was so much better. Cheers. I'll hide my above posts so they don't add clutter :)

Wait.  Did I do that by accident you think? 

"Oy!  What's this button?"

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43 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Defecation and periods.  

The void that Alinghi leaves.

Right.   Then.

 ..so hows the race doing?  :unsure:

4 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Wait.  Did I do that by accident you think.  

"Oy!  What's this button?"

...you are forgiven.  :mellow:

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33 minutes ago, stief said:

If/ when there's a lull in the thread, wondered if anyone (Miffy?) might have ideas about alternatives the mods might have  to the nuclear option that was taken a little while ago to clean up the forum. 

Some of the options recently  turned on  are the licky's, allowing tweets/ Facebook pages/and more to be embedded, and the power to purge the site of a single poster very quickly (with some collateral damage). The German Anarchy site uses https://www.phpbb.com/ for their forum software. IIRC, this site used to use https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/ forum management software (CMS?).

Anyone know what software is currently being used? Trying to see what options the mods have rather than a heavy, unanarchic, censorship hammer.

Seen this pattern for other flicks recently.  Initially relief that the poster has been flicked, then after they realise that all the posts and threads they started have vanished along with what might have been interesting content, there is a second wave of ... "well that's a bit harsh".  Seems like a lazy option.

Edit:  The other part of this approach it that because there is no record of, or communication about why the poster was banned, there is limited learning and warning to others inherited from the event.  Speculation often leads to the wrong conclusion and the behaviour continues with other posters

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3 minutes ago, random said:

Seen this pattern for other flicks recently.  Initially relief that the poster has been flicked, then after they realise that all the post and threads they started have vanished there is a second wave of ... well that's a bit harsh.

Of course. Never know what you've lost until it's gone blah blah blah. So, back to the question: what other options, if any, were available? (Threads too, huh. thanks: news to me)

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DF and all up 10 degrees now.  Maybe they are more confident starting the turn since AZ is a good canary.  Who, btw, is now ~60 nm back vs 40 yesterday (and 80 to weather)

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Actually only DF is up 10 degrees, big lift (35 TWD vs MF at 55 TWD).  Temporary lift or is it macro?  Could be a chance for another split if some of the front runners can stay south.

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