Meat Wad

Grainger R42 - 12.8mts Performance Cruiser Trimaran

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Cicala, a 38 ft sporty condo cat was the only official multihull finisher in the Lincoln race. I have sailed on it, but forget who the designer/builder was.

It is owned by long time good friend John Muirhead. His old boat Enchantress (designed and built himself) was 3rd out of 4 in IRC 2. Have done a half dozen or so Lincoln races, including one on Enchantress.

Cicala’s elapsed time of 16 hrs 21 mins (Average Speed 9.5 knots) vs TP52 Ichi Ban’s 10 hrs 53 mins (Average Speed 14 knots) is interesting...... Going across the bottom of Yorke Peninsula can be very gusty and flukey, especially at night..... Nasty in a hard southwester.....

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19 hours ago, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Nice,

The total elapsed times for the regatta with one drop  shows the Farrier, Carbon Credits to be approximately 10 % faster than the much larger Grainger, Venom.

Early days?

Short courses really favor smaller boats.

In the Newport Unlimited on my forty footer the only time we were able to correct in front of the hot Farriers was when I had Brian Thompson and Lars Christianson off Steve Fossetts Lakota crewing for a change of pace - never saw the chute go up and down that quick before - averaging ten windward/leeward does the trick!

Offshore, shorthanded with my lesser skills we run away from those guy’s.

It takes so much more time to change gears with bigger sails.

So what happened in the Adelaide to Port Lincoln? Weather conditions?

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Just spoke to John on Cicala.....

Apparently Venom was way, way ahead and looking to finish well before midnight when it broke a rudder not far from Lincoln. Crosshair appeared to have sail/ rig problems early and retired, presumably back to Adelaide. Plenty of S-SE 20 knot plus winds to start with, but died and went further east becoming more or less a dead run from Cape Spencer. their ETA up to then was ~ 2300 hrs. They lost all the ground coming in and also took it easy earlier.... John is new to multihulls and was worried about pitchpoling at night.... This from someone who won a Melbourne Hobart a few years ago on Enchantress by carrying a kite around the bottom of Tasmania in a blow when no one else in the race could/would. But then, he could sail it blindfolded....

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Carbon rudder shafts on powerful multis ........ been there done that, never again.

Venom looked really good off the start line.

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9 hours ago, bushsailor said:

Carbon rudder shafts on powerful multis ........ been there done that, never again.

Venom looked really good off the start line.

Whats wrong with them?  All serious offshore multis have carbon stocks and blades we had one on Spirit and it was by far the best rudder system I've used in thirty years super light with plenty of power.  Like most things they seem to have issues if they're not done right.

Pic is of Spirits rudder and stock from 2010 when she was first hauled in Newport RI.

IMG_1087.jpeg

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How much is super light? How many multis? The effectiveness of the rudder is more a function of the design, not the construction.

I think Ester at Greene Marine  made that replacement for the one lost when Spirit drove ashore in Stonington Ct. and the  saildrive got driven up through the hull.

My buddies TRT 1200 came with carbon shaft/blade rudders. One sheared off at in pretty light chop in the Delaware Bay. He replaced it with an identical factory replacement and found them too small fo control offshore. He replaced them with upsized, factory furnished carbon shaft/blades off the bigger TRT. Always leery about another shaft snapping (he sailed in and around Seattle with logs floating around) he asked my opinion and I suggested, designed and made solid alloy shafted/foam glass skinned replacements. They were lighter and more impact resistant and he loves ‘em. Anybody need some oversized carbon rudders for TRT? They are available.

There is something of an issue of scale here. For bigger boats/rudders the undeniable better strength of carbon pays off. For little rudders and their associated smaller shafting not so much - particularly if impact resistance is considered - and losing a rudder is VERY serious even if you have a spare out there on the other ama stern.

The rudder on my forty foot tri is similar size wise to Spirits with a solid alloy shaft/foam glass skinned blade and it’s a hell of a task for me to muscle it down under the stern to insert into it’s home - it slams up beneath the hull and lifts the stern a bit - read it has a lot of float and keep your fingers clear!

Greene Marine made a fine rudder for Spirit but I don’t think it’s comparable to Venom’s except being made of carbon hanging on a tri.

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On 2/20/2020 at 11:25 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

Nice,

The total elapsed times for the regatta with one drop  shows the Farrier, Carbon Credits to be approximately 10 % faster than the much larger Grainger, Venom.

Early days?

 

On 2/21/2020 at 7:10 PM, boardhead said:

Short courses really favor smaller boats.

In addition to the short course thing I've found it really takes at least a year to get a new boat and crew really dialed in, and the Farrier teams have likely been doing it much longer and are much more dialed in.

I really think we need to give the Venom team a year to sort themselves out...

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15 minutes ago, gspot said:

 

In addition to the short course thing I've found it really takes at least a year to get a new boat and crew really dialed in, and the Farrier teams have likely been doing it much longer and are much more dialed in.

I really think we need to give the Venom team a year to sort themselves out...

For sure.

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3 hours ago, gspot said:

 

In addition to the short course thing I've found it really takes at least a year to get a new boat and crew really dialed in, and the Farrier teams have likely been doing it much longer and are much more dialed in.

I really think we need to give the Venom team a year to sort themselves out...

Yes, good points.

It does put into perspective though how a boat design , constrained by its trailability, can still perform well against much larger and newer designs with out these constraints.

Waterline length will always be KING in waves.

Just say'n.

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5 hours ago, boardhead said:

How much is super light? How many multis? The effectiveness of the rudder is more a function of the design, not the construction.

I think Ester at Greene Marine  made that replacement for the one lost when Spirit drove ashore in Stonington Ct. and the  saildrive got driven up through the hull.

My buddies TRT 1200 came with carbon shaft/blade rudders. One sheared off at in pretty light chop in the Delaware Bay. He replaced it with an identical factory replacement and found them too small fo control offshore. He replaced them with upsized, factory furnished carbon shaft/blades off the bigger TRT. Always leery about another shaft snapping (he sailed in and around Seattle with logs floating around) he asked my opinion and I suggested, designed and made solid alloy shafted/foam glass skinned replacements. They were lighter and more impact resistant and he loves ‘em. Anybody need some oversized carbon rudders for TRT? They are available.

There is something of an issue of scale here. For bigger boats/rudders the undeniable better strength of carbon pays off. For little rudders and their associated smaller shafting not so much - particularly if impact resistance is considered - and losing a rudder is VERY serious even if you have a spare out there on the other ama stern.

The rudder on my forty foot tri is similar size wise to Spirits with a solid alloy shaft/foam glass skinned blade and it’s a hell of a task for me to muscle it down under the stern to insert into it’s home - it slams up beneath the hull and lifts the stern a bit - read it has a lot of float and keep your fingers clear!

Greene Marine made a fine rudder for Spirit but I don’t think it’s comparable to Venom’s except being made of carbon hanging on a tri.

Wow, I would never have thought that solid alloy would be suitable for rudder shafts, is it a very high tensile alloy that you use Boardhead?

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3 hours ago, gspot said:

In addition to the short course thing I've found it really takes at least a year to get a new boat and crew really dialed in, and the Farrier teams have likely been doing it much longer and are much more dialed in.

I really think we need to give the Venom team a year to sort themselves out...

Totally agree....... But I am a bit surprised that a new leading edge 42 ft all carbon trimaran rates less than an older 32 ft all carbon trimaran.

Using the numbers upthread, if it is theoretically, on average ~ 6% faster, you would expect the rating to be ~ 6% higher, not ~ 1% lower?

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27 minutes ago, he b gb said:

Wow, I would never have thought that solid alloy would be suitable for rudder shafts, is it a very high tensile alloy that you use Boardhead?

No, good old 6061 T6, cheap and readily available with good structural strength and toughness, high yield point, responds well to hardcore anodizing for excellent corrosion resistance and a hardwearing bearing surface. Weighs less than 35% of stainless with a higher tensile yield. Decent elongation to break for shock loads and 500 mil cycles at 30% ultimate tensile (way over service load) for long life. 

Getting off subject here - sorry!

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I had some problems with Carbon rudder shafts on Cynaphobe / 66 binding up under loads.... But i think it's all more due to the shafts flexing and binding in the tubes and bearings... The bearings on XL2 are very high quality and eliminate any issues at all... by far the best i've used
Venom is new will have teething problems like every new boat.... 

42..2.jpg

42...1.jpg

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Venom will get way quicker over the next 12 months. I dont think she has  even got a spinnaker yet.

On carbon rudder shafts I believe the secret is large diameter which reduces flex. Monos have way less failures due to large diameter shafts.

On my cat we load tested the shafts before final machining with 2 ton and had  20mm deflection over 2m which at the time I thought was pretty good but turns out was not good enough.

Flex is really bad over many cycles as each cycle weakens or breaks the structure down on fibre at a time. 

I never thought about aluminium shafts before!! My cats are 50mm diameter solid high tensile stainless which are very heavy.

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1 hour ago, bushsailor said:

Venom will get way quicker over the next 12 months. I dont think she has  even got a spinnaker yet.

Totally agree. OMR data says she has a small kite, about the same size as the screecher on Carbon Credit, and no screacher.

But the rating?

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6 hours ago, he b gb said:

Wow, I would never have thought that solid alloy would be suitable for rudder shafts, is it a very high tensile alloy that you use Boardhead?

An article you may find of interest, complete with material comparisons.

https://www.jefa.com/products/materials.htm

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I think boardhead nailed it....carbon is great if you get it right, talk to the F1 teams building carbon torque tubes...I would also want solid core or at least +50% lamininate thickness tapered at the bearing points for compressive loading, and at some point the weight savings on a 40 footer don't really make sense. Overall though, it is hard to beat 6061 as a fabrication material, though the strength to weight ratio of 17-4PH stainless is also hard to argue with in an isotropic material....it's better than titanium FYI, the only reason to go Ti is the very inert and high temperature resistance of Ti, but in our applications coatings can get you pretty dang close for corrosion resistance.

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On 2/22/2020 at 1:10 PM, boardhead said:

Short courses really favor smaller boats.

In the Newport Unlimited on my forty footer the only time we were able to correct in front of the hot Farriers was when I had Brian Thompson and Lars Christianson off Steve Fossetts Lakota crewing for a change of pace - never saw the chute go up and down that quick before - averaging ten windward/leeward does the trick!

Offshore, shorthanded with my lesser skills we run away from those guy’s.

It takes so much more time to change gears with bigger sails.

So what happened in the Adelaide to Port Lincoln? Weather conditions?

I did the Nationals on Carbon Credits and the Lincoln Race on Venom.

The short course racing for the Nationals suited us on Carbon, we had a fully dialed in crew, all the sails you need and I believe we sailed the boat well for a great result.

We were able to get off all start lines well and had the sails and crew to continually change gears and get the most out of the boat.

Venom was sailed quite well at Vincent but the short courses and lack of a full sail wardrobe played into our hands to make it possible to beat them over the line in all races.

The long passage race from Adelaide and the return leg was a totally different story with Venom showing significantly more speed in the open water sailing and more breeze. 

The boat was awesome in the lincoln race, we still suffered a little from not having a Screecher for around an hour and also could have used a MH sail in the earlier stages if the VMG run. The big surprise for me was the depth we achieved out of the hounds Code Zero and proved that boat may be faster than I anticipated.

Venom does only have a hounds Code Zero at this stage so there is quite a performance gain to come yet.

The wardrobe is still missing a upwind Capable Screecher and this will light the boat up super early.

This is a new custom boat, the build is awesome and the platform is crazy stiff, the rig is also a great piece of work by Lorima and AYS.

The OMR ratings at Vincent were originally published with a mistake, the actual final OMR for Venom was just over 1 quite a bit above the Farriers.

All new boats take time to sort out, especially one of customs....

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Following online & regularly checking boat speeds Venom was always between 1 & 3 kts faster than any other competitor.! Up till the rudder broke they were doing a horizon job on the rest. Also only the main hull rudder was being used due to some sorting needed on the float linkages. She will be much more venomous yet! 

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