Papaji

Aluminium Centerboard 46-52ft blue water go anywhere

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Hi, I just joined your forum and am hoping to find some members that have experience or know of a certain type of boat that may or may not be out there. I have been looking for a new floater for a circumnavigation that would be comfortably handling high latitude waters. Here is my dilemma: Just recently I've been caught off guard by a modern design boat. Having always sailed true classics I never really  paid attention to the newer designs that are always swamping the market, so I was not expecting to be drawn to the specs of the Futuna explorer 54. http://nl.yachtworld.com/boten/2015/Futuna-54-Explorer-3077058/country.frankrijk#.WfZPVmi3yUk.

There is not much that I don't like about the boat, apart from its size (and price tag). It made me look further for similar boats and came across the Boreal 47 http://www.boreal-yachts.com/boreal-modele/le-boreal-47/?lang=en  and Garcia exploration boats. https://www.sailmagazine.com/boats/garcia-exploration-45-jimmy-cornells-ideal-boat Neither of those caught my fancy as the Futuna did. 

When I looked further into the Futuna shipyard, it looks like they only built one expedition 54 and that one is now for sale with a ridiculous pricetag of no less than 690k euro ex VAT. Granted the boat has a carbon boom and mast, but who would want such a thing on a boat he plans to circumnavigate? You will never be able to make any kind of repair on that.

There is so much out there and I have not kept watch on the market for many years. So I am wondering if anybody knows of any boats that are similar in specs and design like the futuna above? Ideally it would be an aluminium centerboard 46-52ft.  I would not mind finding an older boat and upgrading to somewhat match the specs of the Futuna explorer. 

Any thoughts ideas and links are much appreciated!!

6201853_20170412023456284_1_XLARGE.jpg

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Wow! Nacrajon that is a nice little boat, I love the whole thing and wish I had had such a little jem like 10/20 years ago. I'm running 50 now, and am looking for a bit more space, but also a bit more comfort. 

I guess what charmed me about the futuna is the raised deck-saloon. I love the idea of having your main living space in the area where it is most wanted. The combination of kitchen sitting area and helm position in the raised deck-saloon is what caught my interests most. Both boreal and carcia exploration have the near same layout. Most others like the allures (thanks maxdog) lack that added convenience, especially the 2nd helm-position. And the vdStad madeira lacks the centerboard. 

More hints/links to other designs is most welcome! 

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

Ovni

There is one boat that will do the job, but I just don't like the design. Maybe it's just too French??

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22 hours ago, nacrajon said:

At 36ft it is shorter than you want but this is my current favorite affordable deriveur integrale.

http://www.yachtdesign.com.br/ingles/projetos/ki36/desc34-1.php

I thought it would be nice for followers of this thread to have pictures of the discussed boats. It also helps me to keep track of your replies and the suggestions

arranjo_10.jpg

image015.jpg

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On 10/30/2017 at 6:08 AM, Zonker said:

Ovni

the ovni evolution 52

ovni_evolution_52_0.jpg

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15 hours ago, Papaji said:

Wow! Nacrajon that is a nice little boat, I love the whole thing and wish I had had such a little jem like 10/20 years ago. I'm running 50 now, and am looking for a bit more space, but also a bit more comfort. 

I guess what charmed me about the futuna is the raised deck-saloon. I love the idea of having your main living space in the area where it is most wanted. The combination of kitchen sitting area and helm position in the raised deck-saloon is what caught my interests most. Both boreal and carcia exploration have the near same layout. Most others like the allures (thanks maxdog) lack that added convenience, especially the 2nd helm-position. And the vdStad madeira lacks the centerboard. 

More hints/links to other designs is most welcome! 

Here is the link to the Boreal 47, which would so far be my second best choice above the Futuna 54, mainly because of price/size. http://www.boreal-yachts.com/boreal-modele/le-boreal-47/?lang=en

I like the solution they chose for enclosing the sheltered helmposition by u piece of fabric. The way futuna solved the same requirement is much better in my book though.

Boreal 47 pic:

boreal47-Nuva-19.jpg

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The other one I mentioned wat the Garcia Exploration 45.

http://www.arctic05.org/en/2014/06/garcia-exploration-45-a-new-great-sailing-boat-designed-for-arctic-waters/

Its specs are incredible, but unlike the Futuna I have no idea what to think of the look. Whichever way I look at it, its just so novel and different that I have not yet decided if I llike the look or not. My problem becomes obvious with this design. I've always looked at, and sailed classic boats, and this one is sooo far away from anything I ever even considered.

now I'm not saying I don't like it, but with this design I have the feeling it's a prelude to a better design to be followed after

big_E_Morris_Adant_GE45_48_1400660763.jpg

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I've seen both the Boreal 44 and the Garcia Adventure 45 in person and can't say I'm sold on the looks of either.  I think that the Boreal is probably a better boat for this type of thing than the Garcia - better tankage, simpler systems on spec, non-swept spreaders, and I've heard very positive things about the Boreal's handling under sail.  An acquaintance sailed aboard the first Adventure 45 when Jimmy Cornell attempted the NW passage and had a number of criticisms of that boat in particular - mostly due to it being first edition and systems not being refined, but my take away was that if you can stomach the aesthetics of either the Boreal is a significantly better boat.

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47 minutes ago, hdra said:

I've seen both the Boreal 44 and the Garcia Adventure 45 in person and can't say I'm sold on the looks of either.  I think that the Boreal is probably a better boat for this type of thing than the Garcia - better tankage, simpler systems on spec, non-swept spreaders, and I've heard very positive things about the Boreal's handling under sail.  An acquaintance sailed aboard the first Adventure 45 when Jimmy Cornell attempted the NW passage and had a number of criticisms of that boat in particular - mostly due to it being first edition and systems not being refined, but my take away was that if you can stomach the aesthetics of either the Boreal is a significantly better boat.

Hi! I haven't come across any of these boats yet here in Holland, but from looking at the specs reviews pictures and videos I had come to somewhat the same conclusions/notions that you mentioned. I do think that Garcia is quite a good shipyard and that they will take their design of the exploration to the next level. The v2 is already somewhat better, but I don't think the design will last and will transform into something more appealing somehow.

The Boreal gives a somewhat unfinished impression? But even with that feeling I have about the boat (and I don't like the looks like i do the futuna) all the specs are quite impressive. 

Since you are obviously at least interested in these types of boats, do you have any info on others (maybe one-offs) out there that come anywhere near this kind of requirement list? And do you have any info about the Futuna? When I look at their site and when I google that boat it seems to me only one has been made, and that is the one now for sale. It looks like a pet project for a wealthy swiss guy who is now finished playing with his toy.

I will probably end op getting in touch with the futuna shipyard and pick their brains about the one for sail and their stance towards the build of a similar vessel but slightly shorter. A futuna explorer 47 sound good to me. When I delete some of the fancy gadgets like the carbon mast and boom the swiss guy put onto his boat, it might even become economically viable. 

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You're in Holland right? What about the Bestevaer 49ST? There has been a lot of discussion of that boat here (check the Metal Boats thread).

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1 hour ago, Anomaly2 said:

You're in Holland right? What about the Bestevaer 49ST? There has been a lot of discussion of that boat here (check the Metal Boats thread).

Hi, yes I know that boat, and have seen in the 'flesh'. I may be dutch born, but thankfully not very nationalistic, otherwise I would maybe feel compelled to like that design. http://www.kmy.nl/yacht/bestevaer-49st.html

For me the long and the short of it is that for my personal taste the design fails to be innovative enough, it hangs on to the old school designs, and has a strange mix of new/old I really don't dig. Nowhere any commitment to be found;

  • -the hull takes a modern twist at the bow, but remains rooted in nostalgia at the stern.
  • Not even the windows. Round windows in the hull, rectangular ones in the superstructure and squares in the pilothouse without any cohesion. 
  • the interior hangs towards luxury, but fails to really deliver (in my view) and because of that also fails to adher to the rougher specs you would want on a go anywhere boat.

I will check out the thread you mentioned for sure, and may repost my opinion on the boat there.

No, when looking at the bestevaer designs, I would go for an older design, its a Dijkstra designed hull, a classic with a centerboard also. Design is Bestevaer 50s http://www.kmy.nl/yacht/bestevaer-50s-schouman.html

see the second pic. I love that boat, and as a matter of fact there is an aluminum hull for sale from that design, which I have an eye on - but as mentioned got caught off guard by the futuna.

bestevaer.jpg

50 s bestevaer.jpg

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4 hours ago, Papaji said:

Hi! I haven't come across any of these boats yet here in Holland, but from looking at the specs reviews pictures and videos I had come to somewhat the same conclusions/notions that you mentioned. I do think that Garcia is quite a good shipyard and that they will take their design of the exploration to the next level. The v2 is already somewhat better, but I don't think the design will last and will transform into something more appealing somehow.

The Boreal gives a somewhat unfinished impression? But even with that feeling I have about the boat (and I don't like the looks like i do the futuna) all the specs are quite impressive. 

Since you are obviously at least interested in these types of boats, do you have any info on others (maybe one-offs) out there that come anywhere near this kind of requirement list? And do you have any info about the Futuna? When I look at their site and when I google that boat it seems to me only one has been made, and that is the one now for sale. It looks like a pet project for a wealthy swiss guy who is now finished playing with his toy.

I will probably end op getting in touch with the futuna shipyard and pick their brains about the one for sail and their stance towards the build of a similar vessel but slightly shorter. A futuna explorer 47 sound good to me. When I delete some of the fancy gadgets like the carbon mast and boom the swiss guy put onto his boat, it might even become economically viable. 

I hadn't come across the Futuna before seeing your post.  I've come across a few one-offs that aim for the same target, and there are of course the Ovnis.  Another option might be some of the older Garcia's - have seen a few Garcia Passoa 47s that looked pretty good - don't know much about them and haven't managed to get aboard one, but they will come in much cheaper than any Boreal, Garcia Adventure, or the Futuna, which could leave some room in the budget for refitting.  

My wife and I ended up purchasing an older (1985) semi-custom 42' Pouvreau with a fixed keel that has been serving us well for the past three years - the boat was just about spot on and at that size/displacement we're happier having a ballast keel for AVS, especially on a used boat without design documentation.  The boat has ended up being pretty perfect - there have a been a few anchorages so far where it would have been nice to be able to get shallower, but at 2m draft think it's a fairly good compromise between simple/shoal draft/performance/stability.

Good luck in your search - one thing to keep in mind with the Bestevaer's as well is that they are very much a semi-custom boat - there's a user on the forums "Seaworthy Lass" who's building a new Bestevaer and is tailoring it very much away from the fancy paint, teak decks, and cushy interior and towards a bomb-proof bare-aluminum world cruiser.  She's posted photos from the build here and it looks like it's going to be a sweet boat.  That being said, building new is going to be a lot more expensive than buying used no matter what way you cut it and I suspect a new Bestevaer would not be cheap.

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1 hour ago, hdra said:

I hadn't come across the Futuna before seeing your post.  I've come across a few one-offs that aim for the same target, and there are of course the Ovnis.  Another option might be some of the older Garcia's - have seen a few Garcia Passoa 47s that looked pretty good - don't know much about them and haven't managed to get aboard one, but they will come in much cheaper than any Boreal, Garcia Adventure, or the Futuna, which could leave some room in the budget for refitting.  

My wife and I ended up purchasing an older (1985) semi-custom 42' Pouvreau with a fixed keel that has been serving us well for the past three years - the boat was just about spot on and at that size/displacement we're happier having a ballast keel for AVS, especially on a used boat without design documentation.  The boat has ended up being pretty perfect - there have a been a few anchorages so far where it would have been nice to be able to get shallower, but at 2m draft think it's a fairly good compromise between simple/shoal draft/performance/stability.

Good luck in your search - one thing to keep in mind with the Bestevaer's as well is that they are very much a semi-custom boat - there's a user on the forums "Seaworthy Lass" who's building a new Bestevaer and is tailoring it very much away from the fancy paint, teak decks, and cushy interior and towards a bomb-proof bare-aluminum world cruiser.  She's posted photos from the build here and it looks like it's going to be a sweet boat.  That being said, building new is going to be a lot more expensive than buying used no matter what way you cut it and I suspect a new Bestevaer would not be cheap.

would love to see some pics of the Puvreau, couldn't find any and haven't heard of her.

I wonder if the AVS was the reason they fitted the carbon mast on the futuna. I hear you about the ballast keel, and I am not entirely sold on the centerboards especially since my experience has always steered me towards s-shaped hulls. So in this regard my wish for a centerboard is entirely relying on the experiences of much more senior sailors that have been there and done that and  since I am in the market for a change, it seems best to aim for the ideal configuration. It's not just the ability to get shallower,  I have been in situations that a lifting keel would have saved my ass in a much better way than I ended up, for sure!! And the idea of being able to beach the boat and go onto shallow rivers is very appealing to me.

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

Those Boreal  are apparently well built and have a bit of a following.  They also don't seem to build to demand and as a result the second hand prices are always very high.

yes, I came across exactly 1 listing of a second hand 44 footer Boreal, https://www.sailfeed.com/2017/02/used-boreal-44-for-sale-rc-louise-is-up-for-grabs-2/ 

There is a thread on the cruisers forum that goes into depth of this specific boat, about the fact that they don't come for sale on the second hand market, and low and behold there is even a posting of the managing director of Boreal on the second page assuring all the readers that they DO have a slot available in 2018 to build a new one!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f152/2013-boreal-44-for-sale-175678.html

it seems that the boat has been sold and the thread ends abruptly

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They do the enclosed deckhouse better than most the other centreboard options, which would be a massive bonus if you're serious about high latitudes.  There a various one-offs about, but you'd need to have a very good idea what you're buying and the resale values are often low.

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10 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

They do the enclosed deckhouse better than most the other centreboard options, which would be a massive bonus if you're serious about high latitudes.  There a various one-offs about, but you'd need to have a very good idea what you're buying and the resale values are often low.

most of those one-offs are too specialized for my taste. I'm not looking to go all the way up or down to the polar caps.  but I do expect to end up in the higher latitudes on various occasions.

I guess my first concession would be to forget about the centerboard if nothing workable/affordable turns up.

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Here're are a few pictures of the Pouvreau 42 we have, Fleur Australe.  From what we understand there were 8-10 of these boats built but the rest were centerboarders, this one was a semi-custom version with a fixed keel and the doghouse.  I've come across one 38'er also designed by Vaton and built by the same yard but that's it -  haven't met any other sister ships. 

I suspect that the Futuna with the carbon rig is mainly because it was a no-expenses spared custom boat and a carbon rig is slightly faster/sexier than an aluminum one, not for any significant difference it made in stability to the boat - a 54' will have enough displacement that it should be able to safely carry a centerboard regardless of rig material - look at Skip Novak's original Pelagic, built in steel, for example.

 

IMG_4656.jpg

IMG_6161.jpg

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3 hours ago, hdra said:

a 54' will have enough displacement that it should be able to safely carry a centerboard regardless of rig material - look at Skip Novak's original Pelagic, built in steel, for example.

Original Pelagic /and bigger sister too/ isn't a centerboarder but swinging keel boat. Both boats got heavy ballasted keels with only small part of lead in hull for trimming purposes.

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23 minutes ago, Yigael said:

Original Pelagic /and bigger sister too/ isn't a centerboarder but swinging keel boat. Both boats got heavy ballasted keels with only small part of lead in hull for trimming purposes.

My bad - take back what I say about them then.

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6 hours ago, hdra said:

Here're are a few pictures of the Pouvreau 42 we have, Fleur Australe.  From what we understand there were 8-10 of these boats built but the rest were centerboarders, this one was a semi-custom version with a fixed keel and the doghouse.  I've come across one 38'er also designed by Vaton and built by the same yard but that's it -  haven't met any other sister ships. 

I suspect that the Futuna with the carbon rig is mainly because it was a no-expenses spared custom boat and a carbon rig is slightly faster/sexier than an aluminum one, not for any significant difference it made in stability to the boat - a 54' will have enough displacement that it should be able to safely carry a centerboard regardless of rig material - look at Skip Novak's original Pelagic, built in steel, for example.

 

IMG_4656.jpg

IMG_6161.jpg

It looks very capable! She looks meticulously maintained and should take you anywhere. You don't miss the centerboard? It would give you that little extra push up those small creeks and beaches. My aim is at least 46 feet. everything above may be more of a challenge in the day to day handling, but would of course be on the plus side for convenience and liveaboard comfort

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2 hours ago, Yigael said:

Original Pelagic /and bigger sister too/ isn't a centerboarder but swinging keel boat. Both boats got heavy ballasted keels with only small part of lead in hull for trimming purposes.

http://www.pelagic.co.uk/fleet_pel.asp

Hi! Thanks for your feedback, I had not heard of pelagic. From what I have seen on the website it looks like a very well thought out concept and it's been out there and proved itself. the new design, australis looks just amazing and I imagine that all the experciences since 1987 have been incorporated into that build. The size is somewhat of an issue for me, of course. 

pelagic.jpg

pagenview_7x4.jpg

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There have been a few anchorages where I wish we had had a centerboard, but so far from France-Caribbean-Newfoundland-Maine-Greenland-Iceland-Ireland-UK haven't really had any issues with it.  I work on a boat that draws 3.3m so having "only" 2m draft feels pretty luxurious when we get to go play.

Another design you might want to check out is Seal - a 56' built by Hamish & Kate Laird who used to work on Pelagic as a charter boat for Alaska.

https://www.expeditionsail.com

Ed Joy designed her and will sell you a set of study plans for her - think that a near sistership was just launched in south Africa as well.

https://www.edjoydesign.com/Seal.html?/Seal1.html

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Papaji said:

The size is somewhat of an issue for me, of course. 

 

http://www.pelagic.co.uk/yachts/overview.asp Tony Castro, designer, has got upscaled and downscaled versions of Pelagic Australis in his portfolio - 56' 63' original 74' and 82'.

Pelagic Australis is my dream boat, I'm still drooling after the privilege to raft with Pelagic's and visit them in 2016.

20160129_134159.jpg

20160130_122353.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, hdra said:

There have been a few anchorages where I wish we had had a centerboard, but so far from France-Caribbean-Newfoundland-Maine-Greenland-Iceland-Ireland-UK haven't really had any issues with it.  I work on a boat that draws 3.3m so having "only" 2m draft feels pretty luxurious when we get to go play.

Another design you might want to check out is Seal - a 56' built by Hamish & Kate Laird who used to work on Pelagic as a charter boat for Alaska.

https://www.expeditionsail.com

Ed Joy designed her and will sell you a set of study plans for her - think that a near sistership was just launched in south Africa as well.

https://www.edjoydesign.com/Seal.html?/Seal1.html

 

 

sounds like a good 'recommendation' to loosen a bit on the centerboard tic. Still not convinced that a good center boarder is not out there for the grabs though. and then there you come with this seal design!! Byebye Futuna! You just gave me a lot to think about in those , what is it? 4 lines of text and 2 links! thanks!

yacht-seal-shore-lines.jpg

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24 minutes ago, Yigael said:

http://www.pelagic.co.uk/yachts/overview.asp Tony Castro, designer, has got upscaled and downscaled versions of Pelagic Australis in his portfolio - 56' 63' original 74' and 82'.

Pelagic Australis is my dream boat, I'm still drooling after the privilege to raft with Pelagic's and visit them in 2016.

I can imagine you are drooling after that experience. Now I know you haven;t been on the Seal (previously mentioned) but since you have been aboard the australis, is it in any way possible that you make some kind of comparison based on the info available on the internet???

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I've only seen Seal from some distance. But, assuming it's Hamish Laird boat, and reading his page it's the same philosophy - going anywhere seaworthy boat with possibility to running away from incoming ice /to shallow water or even beaching the boat/ capable to stand her ground and claw off the weather shore in pretty much everything the nature can throw in your face - on sails. I love the Skip's philosophy "keep it simple" "you can't break something you haven't got on board" - The keel of Pelagic Australis weights over 12 tons AFAIR and it's lifted by offroad truck winch /marine hydraulics is so complicated, expensive, unreliable, hard to fix, leaky, unnecessary... ;) / Winch is standard, sealed and cheap. If it, brakes the second one, carefully packed is right on the shelf in the bosuns locker - it's some 8 bolts and 4 cables to change it underway. If it also brakes you can put the tackle line to anchor winch, and when you run out of power there is that big grinder powered winch right after mast you can see on the photo to make your crew fit and happy ;)
 

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One thing I always notice about those big expedition boats is their set ups to handle seriously long lines.  When I think about the shit show we go through dealing with a couple of lighter weight 50m jobs I can see why.

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6 hours ago, Papaji said:

From what I have seen on the website it looks like a very well thought out concept and it's been out there and proved itself. the new design, australis looks just amazing

In that series http://www.yachtingworld.com/storm-sailing-techniques

Skip is telling a lot about his boats, sailing philosophy and high latitude experiences. Definitely worth to see IMVHO.

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6 hours ago, By the lee said:

Wait, what?

In the '90's, some dude doing BOC anchored in NZ bay with broken carbon spar and effected repairs making sleeve to join sections and using light bulbs inside to make epoxy kick. By hisself, no assistance allowed, eh?

Whad'ya gonna' do with aluminium, carry a tig welder with you?

 

I'm sure there are plenty of instances that you could fix it up if you have the tools and skills, I was more thinking of the lines of expertise available around the world. Aren't you  much more likely to come across somewhere where they can fix your aluminum than your carbon mast?

But, you raise an interesting point. Would the people on Aurealis and Seal and such boats alike carry a tig welder? or at least the materials?

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If you are prepared to drop lifting keel or centerboard, the boat that looks most like the Futuna’s lines is the Alubat Cigale. If you created a hard dodger extended back a bit, you might mistake them at a distance. There are second hand 14m and 16m examples that would be cheaper than the Futuna. 

D7F05811-DBF6-42D5-9836-A67482EFE86C.jpeg

AD39425C-168A-4AE3-B678-5F78FC8E08D3.jpeg

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35 minutes ago, Telesail said:

If you are prepared to drop lifting keel or centerboard, the boat that looks most like the Futuna’s lines is the Alubat Cigale. If you created a hard dodger extended back a bit, you might mistake them at a distance. There are second hand 14m and 16m examples that would be cheaper than the Futuna. 

Yes am prepared to drop lifting/centerb. but what I am definitely looking for is a boat that has the raised decksaloon/pilothouse or the hybrid like the Boreal incorporated.

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On 11/1/2017 at 5:03 PM, hdra said:

There have been a few anchorages where I wish we had had a centerboard, but so far from France-Caribbean-Newfoundland-Maine-Greenland-Iceland-Ireland-UK haven't really had any issues with it.  I work on a boat that draws 3.3m so having "only" 2m draft feels pretty luxurious when we get to go play.

Another design you might want to check out is Seal - a 56' built by Hamish & Kate Laird who used to work on Pelagic as a charter boat for Alaska.

https://www.expeditionsail.com

Ed Joy designed her and will sell you a set of study plans for her - think that a near sistership was just launched in south Africa as well.

https://www.edjoydesign.com/Seal.html?/Seal1.html

 

 

there are at least 2 sisterships built to Seal in South Africa. The urchin and Eva, and it seems that the people who commissioned both had somewhat of the same spec-wishlist I have, exept that I feel 56' is too big expecting to sail the boat partly solo and mainly with two. The Futuna design is clearly inspired by the designs of Ed Joy and the people that made the Australis come to life.

The sisterships to Seal are called Eva and Urchin. They seem to be outfitted to handle a little lesser latitudes than the original Seal. Exactly like my thoughts are on it. There is a heap of very interesting info on those boats available, and I will get in touch with Ed Joy to get his thoughts about a somewhat smaller version of this wonderful design.

http://www.edjoydesign.com/blog/

 

urchin-5.jpg

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11 hours ago, Telesail said:

If you are prepared to drop lifting keel or centerboard, the boat that looks most like the Futuna’s lines is the Alubat Cigale. If you created a hard dodger extended back a bit, you might mistake them at a distance. There are second hand 14m and 16m examples that would be cheaper than the Futuna. 

D7F05811-DBF6-42D5-9836-A67482EFE86C.jpeg

AD39425C-168A-4AE3-B678-5F78FC8E08D3.jpeg

Love the Cigales.  Noto so sure about the latest ones.  Currently fashionable fat arse to drag about and lots of space to fall about in the cockpit.  As Pap says, if I was looking for this type of boat I'd be keen to have the deckhouse.  That said their saloon layout is pretty cool.

Water ballasted , big rig and lightweight (by cruising standards), what's not to like.

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Little Cloud : an aluminum expedition boat with a keel but with less than 7' of draft. Personally I like Keel Centerboard combination. More protection to the rudder and propeller, more tankage and lower ballast, good performance upwind with or without the board; lesser draft.

Ilgaz; a smaller version at 40'

20002STRN.jpg

ilgaz309SPL-JA18-12.jpg

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On 3.11.2017 at 11:33 AM, Papaji said:

Yes am prepared to drop lifting/centerb. but what I am definitely looking for is a boat that has the raised decksaloon/pilothouse or the hybrid like the Boreal incorporated.

If you prefer fixed keel shallow draught proven, robust design:

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/about/kiwiroa.php

kiwiroa-glacier.jpg

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23 hours ago, By the lee said:

I'd think anywhere inhabited enough to do aluminium repair would enable access to composite materials if not at hand then shipped in.

Come to think of it TIG welders have become small/portable enough to fit into a largish vessel - if you got generator/inverter.......????

TIG welders aren't too bulky and small ones can run off of a 240V 15A power supply without dramas.

Problem is still that you need to carry a cylinder or 2 of argon with you and if you're welding exposed to the wind, good luck maintaining the shielding gas cover. The weld will be total shit if you don't.

This is one of the reasons I prefer steel. It's easier to weld and you can do it with the same small, light inverter welders but you don't need shielding gas, you can use either stick electrodes or flux cored wire.

FKT

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1 minute ago, olaf hart said:

In a pinch you can weld steel with a piece of rod, jumper cables and a couple of 12v batteries.

Paging Bre

No, I can't do it.

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Just because no one has mentioned them yet...Kanter in Canada has been building aluminum keel/centerboard deck saloon boats for the last 30 years. 

And their resale doesn't come with a 'known' name premium.

 

6195935_20170406082543641_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/Kanter-Atlantic-45-Pilothouse-3075358/La-Rochelle/France#.Wf5twYiQyCg

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3 hours ago, olaf hart said:

In a pinch you can weld steel with a piece of rod, jumper cables and a couple of 12v batteries.

Yeah but the weld will be shit with porosity & crap due to no flux. I've got a USA made Readywelder that's basically a MIG spool gun capable of running off of 24V DC. Add a couple 1kg spools of flux cored wire & you're in business.

A big boat might have the spare space/load carrying ability for an E cylinder or 2 of argon but I don't.

FKT

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On 11/4/2017 at 6:42 AM, Tanton Y_M said:

 

Little Cloud : an aluminum expedition boat with a keel but with less than 7' of draft. Personally I like Keel Centerboard combination. More protection to the rudder and propeller, more tankage and lower ballast, good performance upwind with or without the board; lesser draft.

Ilgaz; a smaller version at 40'

You would have the advantage of lesser draft but miss a main advantage I would like to have/decisive choice for the centerboard is the ability to beach/dry fall the boat. If that requirement were to go, I would probably revert to a full s-keeled hull

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On 11/5/2017 at 1:19 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

TIG welders aren't too bulky and small ones can run off of a 240V 15A power supply without dramas.

Problem is still that you need to carry a cylinder or 2 of argon with you and if you're welding exposed to the wind, good luck maintaining the shielding gas cover. The weld will be total shit if you don't.

This is one of the reasons I prefer steel. It's easier to weld and you can do it with the same small, light inverter welders but you don't need shielding gas, you can use either stick electrodes or flux cored wire.

FKT

I reconed as much. there must be convenient sized welders out there for the purpose. Your explanation of the drawbacks to welding alu versus steel are only relevant if you are in a real pinch. The advantages of aluminium over steel do not compare (in my opinion anyway)

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On 11/5/2017 at 2:58 AM, Dilligaf0220 said:

Just because no one has mentioned them yet...Kanter in Canada has been building aluminum keel/centerboard deck saloon boats for the last 30 years. 

And their resale doesn't come with a 'known' name premium.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/Kanter-Atlantic-45-Pilothouse-3075358/La-Rochelle/France#.Wf5twYiQyCg

I do know of the Kanter and did consider, and yes I agree the premium isn't there when looking for a pre-owned boat. I guess part of my dismissal of this design is in the details and the other part a feeling the boat doesn't quite do it for me in terms of appeal. I saw the boat you mentioned and others before. Every time , every hull available I dismiss quite readily - whenever I revisit the listings so there must be something I can't really put my finger to .

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On 11/5/2017 at 6:11 AM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah but the weld will be shit with porosity & crap due to no flux. I've got a USA made Readywelder that's basically a MIG spool gun capable of running off of 24V DC. Add a couple 1kg spools of flux cored wire & you're in business.

A big boat might have the spare space/load carrying ability for an E cylinder or 2 of argon but I don't.

FKT

the original remark was that a carbon mast would be more difficult to repair in remote areas in the world ( not necessarlily on-board) where know-how to repair aluminium is more likely to be available locally than the skills to repair carbon. Now bear with me because I don't have the carbon experience, but I can begin to imagine to make a rudimentary/shitty aluminium weld off grid but can not begin to imagine doing the same with a carbon boom or mast

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20 hours ago, Mazdaz said:

Google JFA 54 French custom build by highly regarded yard looks good as well

Hi, I did come across a 45 ft, but have not seen the 54 foot version. Like the Futuna , seal and other designs mentioned, the 54' is a bit too much for my purpose. And I dont' know if that bigger JFK has a centerboard?

the 45 I did find (see below), lacks a few of the requirements I have. But biggest drawback of the design is the twin keels. Nice for dryfall but not nice for sailing (again, my opinion I don't argue with others who think different, they are equally right) 

 

jfa-45-41950_1f.jpg

jfa-45-41950_18 keel.jpg

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I didn't know a 54ft existed, but now I did find a listing. The one I found has a swinging centerboard version. Interestingly they have come up with yet another solution for the sheltered helmsposition. I never saw this in any other design! A doghouse with two positions. 

interesting quote from the listing: "with her hyrdaulic swing keel and twin rudders that enable her to sit upright on the dry. "

will investigate further!

jfa 54 boat.jpg

swing jfa 54.jpg

double helm.jpg

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On 11/5/2017 at 12:03 AM, By the lee said:

So, someone opined that a centerborder like one at left would have easier motion at sea as opposed to swing keel at right with lower CoR.

Also be interesting to know which system takes up more space/weight below and the performance difference. 

allures45.9.2-1024x401.jpg

Anybody??

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On 11/5/2017 at 12:03 AM, By the lee said:

So, someone opined that a centerborder like one at left would have easier motion at sea as opposed to swing keel at right with lower CoR.

Also be interesting to know which system takes up more space/weight below and the performance difference. 

i found a good discussion on the subject: https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/swing-keel-issues.166795/ 

 

this blog is about a swingkeel and it's performance https://www.distantshores.ca/boatblog_files/how-to-sail-a-swing-keel.php

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4 hours ago, Papaji said:

Anybody??

Personally, I have a bias against tons of moveable  metal ballast, though I understand the technology is well-proven. Raising a ballast keel is going to affect roll quite a bit. I would not be surprised  if you could feel the difference anchored if you get some wave action. 

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3 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Personally, I have a bias against tons of moveable  metal ballast, though I understand the technology is well-proven. Raising a ballast keel is going to affect roll quite a bit. I would not be surprised  if you could feel the difference anchored if you get some wave action. 

agreed, but anchorage would be the very very very last consideration on the subject. More interesting is the remark if the technology is indeed well proven. In most of those recent expedition yachts they incorporate the centerboard and not the swing keel, but when I read up on it I'm somewhat at a loss why that choice is made? The swing keel seems like a good alternative since it can have more weight lower? more weight on the lowest means more stability and security in a pinch right? When you look at the JFA54 above the ability to land the boat on the dry is a nonissue. 

When you come to a certain size boat I'm sure that the weight of the keel can be compensated in the hull. So would the answer be on the technical issues? Would a centerboard be more reliable than the swing keel in terms of durability, reliability etc?

Anybody?

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My experience was with a Santana 21 so the ballast only weighed 600 lbs. Still, when it was allowed to swing freely (which was operator error) it resulted in very disconcerting lurches in the boat's motion.  That boat was tiddly at anchor with the keel up, but it had a narrow waterline. 

The swing keel will move the center of gravity fore/aft a bit which might be noticeable. Also the energy needed to lift it is considerable.  A while back, I read up on the swing keel Beneteau 311, just out of curiosity. Lifting the keel takes 100 turns on manual winch. I'm not sure how they keep the keel in position in a knockdown. The swing keel takes a pretty good performance hit compared to the fixed keel model, something like 15 seconds/mile. Also, the boat needs to be hauled once a year to lubricate the lifting mechanism.  

OTOH, a friend had a keel/cb C&C 36 and most of the time the heavy centerboard was stuck in the case and wouldn't go down, so anything can cause trouble. 

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15 hours ago, Papaji said:

the original remark was that a carbon mast would be more difficult to repair in remote areas in the world ( not necessarlily on-board) where know-how to repair aluminium is more likely to be available locally than the skills to repair carbon. Now bear with me because I don't have the carbon experience, but I can begin to imagine to make a rudimentary/shitty aluminium weld off grid but can not begin to imagine doing the same with a carbon boom or mast

I'd bet on the CF repair being easier & stronger than an aluminium weld done by people who didn't know what they were doing, myself. You do realise that as soon as you weld aluminium, it's strength reverts to the T0 state ie dead soft annealed in the heat affected zone? You'd absolutely have to fit an internal backing sleeve of some sort and do plug welds as well as a full butt weld if it was a snapped mast. Also welding thin aluminium - which mast sections generally are - is going to be a real interesting learning experience if you've not done it before? I've done quite a bit of welding and I can tell you that I hate welding thin aluminium. In fact for a field expedient repair I'd probably whittle a chunk of wood, jam it in with lots of epoxy and wind glass/epoxy tape around the joint.

Which you could do for CF as well.....

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Amyr Klink wrote a couple books on high latitude sailing in his boat called PARATII. It was a swing keel design, not sure of the LOD as I lent the books to a friend of mine and don't have them to hand ATM.

FKT

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14 hours ago, Papaji said:

Anybody??

If you take the top right pic.

1) Make the keel solid.

Take the picture to the bottom left.

2) Move picture from 1 to 2.

Then you have the answer, at least the tools to make your own judgement about motion, speed to weather, grounding.

Personally I love the combination.

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4 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

If you take the top right pic.

1) Make the keel solid.

Take the picture to the bottom left.

2) Move picture from 1 to 2.

Then you have the answer, at least the tools to make your own judgement about motion, speed to weather, grounding.

Personally I love the combination.

hahaha it's like you are describing how to make an origami.  .. I have seen the combination before, but have no personal experience to judge the difference between the designs. I can imagine the combination would improve capability to sail closer to the wind than the solution in the bottom left picture

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I came across a Patago 50, which has another solution for a lifting keel going  through the hull all the way up to the deck. I guess this design minimizes the possibility of leakage underwater, but if you hit anything? The seal and Futuna are designed so it will swing up in such an unlucky event. And it doesn't look like this particular design will sit on its hull.

 

5936112_20160913013130971_1_XLARGE.jpg

5936112_20160913013201900_1_XLARGE.jpg

5936112_20160913013412764_1_XLARGE.jpg

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Sheesh. 

Go weld some aluminum. Go glue some CF laminate. 

I wouldn't trust third world welders on an aluminum mast. Add to that: If you are packing a welder around on a boat in salt water the guts will corrode. As will the consumables. 

Will it work when you need it?

How long will sealed epoxy containers last?

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2 hours ago, bstamerjon said:

Sheesh. 

Go weld some aluminum. Go glue some CF laminate. 

I wouldn't trust third world welders on an aluminum mast. Add to that: If you are packing a welder around on a boat in salt water the guts will corrode. As will the consumables.

Total rubbish. You keep both of them in a Pelican case or similar and there'll be no problem at all. Been there, done that.

FKT

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28 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Total rubbish. You keep both of them in a Pelican case or similar and there'll be no problem at all. Been there, done that.

FKT

+1

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9 hours ago, MatF said:

I just saw the JPB 52 (Jean-Pierre Brouns) in November's Voiles et Voiliers.  The web is light on details, seems to be a custom boat, aluminium with a raised deck-saloon.

French builder info: http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/les-voiliers/jpb52/.  Click on the bottom picture for a pdf with specs.

Thanks! I had not come across that yet. Interesting to see how they seem to have incorporated 2 engines and props in the design. Like you say quite light on details. They also built a 47 footer, Metapado 47 (2nd pic)

miniature-jpb52-eavp-V1.jpg

METAPADO-47-MEFFRE-700x250.jpg

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In checking out the designs of the JPB52 mentioned above I found another shipyard (normandy yacht services) that builts boats under the name Cordova. A 40ft has been completed, and on the site there are also designs of a 45 ft version. http://normandy-ys.fr/

below pics of the 40ft version. I like the pilothouse, and compared to the Carcia eploration I like the traditional design of this boat better. I do wonder how the space below deck turns out, because on a 40ft the leftover space whilst incorporating the decksaloon/pilothouse must be quite small 

 

 

ActuVM16.jpg

pageC40SP1-1.jpg

pageC40SP2-3.jpg

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for comparison the two pilothouses of the Garcia exploration 45 and Cordova40: The garcia has the plus there is the sheltered outside area which the Cordova lacks.

But I guess my biggest objection to the Garcia design is not the out of the ordinary shape the pilothouse has, but the fact that when you are in the cockpit you cannot see THROUGH the pilothouse. I wonder why they did such a big concession in their design? You would always have to look over or besides the superstructure like the guy is doing in pic3. When you look at the Cordova, Boreal Futuna, Seal and most of the others, windows in the back wall of the pilothouse ensure you have at least some forward visibility

(i added the 3rd picture below (of the garcia) to emphasize the fact its superstructure is blocking the view)

big_GarciaExploration45_Salon1NEU_1484207955.jpg

pageC40SP1-1.jpg

ge45_087.jpg

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38 minutes ago, Papaji said:

Thanks! I had not come across that yet. Interesting to see how they seem to have incorporated 2 engines and props in the design. Like you say quite light on details. They also built a 47 footer, Metapado 47 (2nd pic)

this picture shows the props design of the JPB 52 better

JPB 52.jpg

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On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Papaji said:

for comparison the two pilothouses of the Garcia exploration 45 and Cordova40: The garcia has the plus there is the sheltered outside area which the Cordova lacks.

But I guess my biggest objection to the Garcia design is not the out of the ordinary shape the pilothouse has, but the fact that when you are in the cockpit you cannot see THROUGH the pilothouse. I wonder why they did such a big concession in their design? You would always have to look over or besides the superstructure like the guy is doing in pic3. When you look at the Cordova, Boreal Futuna, Seal and most of the others, windows in the back wall of the pilothouse ensure you have at least some forward visibility

(i added the 3rd picture below (of the garcia) to emphasize the fact its superstructure is blocking the view)

big_GarciaExploration45_Salon1NEU_1484207955.jpg

pageC40SP1-1.jpg

ge45_087.jpg

The Garcia has put the helm positions where you can look around the shed.  The Cordova has a traditional wheel in the middle, where in reality you'll see fuck all through the shed so you have to stand up.

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10 hours ago, European Bloke said:

The Garcia has put the helm positions where you can look around the shed.  The Cordova has a traditional wheel in the middle, where in reality you'll see fuck all through the shed so you have to stand up.

By looking at the way the guy is sitting leaning into his railing it doesn't appear to have worked out very well for the Garcia helm position. Pretty uncomfortable looking to me. Imagine having to sit like that all the time. And what if you're not as tall as the average European bloke, eh? What if you're an averaged sized Bolivian or Indonesian male, eh? Then you're about 5 ft 3 inches tall. And his averaged sized wife is only 4 ft 8 inches!!  Good luck with that, standing up and looking over the shed.

And when you're sitting under the protection of the doghouse, you cant look any way but backward..by god, the whole design is backward man!

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On 11/6/2017 at 7:32 AM, Papaji said:

Hi, I did come across a 45 ft, but have not seen the 54 foot version. Like the Futuna , seal and other designs mentioned, the 54' is a bit too much for my purpose. And I dont' know if that bigger JFK has a centerboard?

the 45 I did find (see below), lacks a few of the requirements I have. But biggest drawback of the design is the twin keels. Nice for dryfall but not nice for sailing (again, my opinion I don't argue with others who think different, they are equally right) 

 

jfa-45-41950_1f.jpg

jfa-45-41950_18 keel.jpg

A modern twin keel should sail better than the equivalent centerboarder. Twin keels have a lot for them on a cruising boat, efficient, simple and no movable bits. The only drawback is that in non tidal areas darft can be an issue (in tidal areas, you wait for high tide and then dry at each tide).

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Papaji,  

I'm the previous owner of the Boreal 44, RC Louise. Sorry I do not stop ln on sailing sites much anymore been spending old age farming and fly fishing for steelhead.  If I read right you live in Holland and it can't be expensive to go visit the Boreal yard.  Make an appointment go down and see for yourself, I promise you weather you buy one or not you will have a new found faith in mankind.  Boreal will let you tour the factory, talk with any shipwright and you get to do this entirely on your own no company rep hanging by yourside.  You get to ask any question to anyone you want.  There may be one or two companies out there that will show you around the factory floor but once you sign a contract you rarely get on the floor again.  Boreal welcomes you at any time to come sit with your boat in any stage of build.  And if you are really interested they will take you out for a great day of sea trial even if it's blowing 40 kts. And I hope it would blow like that so you can see what this boat can do.

I'm not the greatest expert in the world on expedition boat design and I don't want a pissing match with anyone out here in forum land.  But some of the other boats mentioned in this thread are great boats and others are a joke.  It was great to meet many of you at the Annoplis boat show, I was fortunate that Boreal flew me out from Oregon to help show the Boreal at the show.  Both owners of the company were there and felt they needed a little help with thier always improving english.  If you came aboard and showed a real interest in expedition design then hopefully I showed you all the amazing things I learned about how amazing the Boreal really is.  All of you interested in an aluminum expedition boat don't listen to any advice you get on forums including me.  Do you homework carefully and there is a lot of homework to achive your goal.

cheers

steve

 

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12 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Folding keel TYD#240.

Has it been commissioned by someone or still on the drawboard?

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53 minutes ago, hannahhome said:

Papaji,  

I'm the previous owner of the Boreal 44, RC Louise. Sorry I do not stop ln on sailing sites much anymore been spending old age farming and fly fishing for steelhead.  If I read right you live in Holland and it can't be expensive to go visit the Boreal yard.  Make an appointment go down and see for yourself, I promise you weather you buy one or not you will have a new found faith in mankind.  Boreal will let you tour the factory, talk with any shipwright and you get to do this entirely on your own no company rep hanging by yourside.  You get to ask any question to anyone you want.  There may be one or two companies out there that will show you around the factory floor but once you sign a contract you rarely get on the floor again.  Boreal welcomes you at any time to come sit with your boat in any stage of build.  And if you are really interested they will take you out for a great day of sea trial even if it's blowing 40 kts. And I hope it would blow like that so you can see what this boat can do.

I'm not the greatest expert in the world on expedition boat design and I don't want a pissing match with anyone out here in forum land.  But some of the other boats mentioned in this thread are great boats and others are a joke.  It was great to meet many of you at the Annoplis boat show, I was fortunate that Boreal flew me out from Oregon to help show the Boreal at the show.  Both owners of the company were there and felt they needed a little help with thier always improving english.  If you came aboard and showed a real interest in expedition design then hopefully I showed you all the amazing things I learned about how amazing the Boreal really is.  All of you interested in an aluminum expedition boat don't listen to any advice you get on forums including me.  Do you homework carefully and there is a lot of homework to achive your goal.

cheers

steve

 

Hi Steve, nice of you to drop by! I think your Boreal has been the only one to hit the pre-owned market these last couple of years!? It sure says a lot about the boats. And yes I am not too far away from the Boreal yard and yes a visit is in my planning. From my research I had already gathered as much about the yard and the owners' attitudes as you so well describe. I am quite exited about the Boreal design and although in particular the Ed Joy designed 'Seal' has some preference over the Boreal design for me personally, the only drawback I see is the whole process of building a new boat. The time involved and the necessary decisions to be made.

I do not have any illusions to know any better than the guys who came up with these kind of designs in the first place, and ideally I would want to pick up a pre-owned vessel. That being said it may very well come to building new if such a boat as yours was the last to come to market this and the next year. And I will not consider a pre-owned before comparing to the option of building new. As it stands now,  and if building new becomes a serious option, the advantages the Seal and Futuna design has over  the Boreal are more than compensated in the fact that only the Boreal is ready to be constructed in a size more comfortable to my liking. i sure as hell don't want to go down a road where I become the wallet of an experiment to cramp a bigger design into a smaller size.

I'm sure that before you decided on the Boreal you went through a similar process of doing your homework as I am undergoing now, and if there are any pointers or know-off's you have to share from that period please do, it will be more than appreciated and be of great help in my ongoing research.

Thanks! 

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Now you have me hooked in.  I don't think of sailing much any more but when I do think about it I really do miss it.  Lucky for us we have lots of friends with Boreals all over the world who have invited us to sail with them any time of year.

All of the alumium boats mentioned in this thread are great boats all very strong and seaworthy ocean going boats.  I'd cross oceans in any of them, bluewater boats all.  But in my opinion they are all not expedition boats.  The designers of true expedition boats have spent much time in expedition situations and have spent long hours and days thinking out every thing that can go wrong from loss of rudder or better yet full rudder and prop protection.  Strength of hull and yet making boat light enough to sail fast when needed. Interior comfort for both deep tropical and extreme cold.  It goes on and on.  Storage space for expedition situations, look at Peter Smiths boat, well thought out.

I loved the new Allures that was docked besides us at the Annapolis Boat Show and how proud the new young owners were of her.  But for me I can't see this bluewater boat as an expedition boat.  Not with two unprotected rudders and prop.  We had planned to go up the jungle rivers of Borneo and PNG before my wife's Tracy illness. In the Boreal I really feel I could have crawled over downed trees in the rivers without damage to the rudder and prop.  It's things like this a designer of great expedition boats think of.  I know some of the other manufactures of aluminum boats tried to term Boreals into only expedition boats and not ocean going boats.  That does not work as the Boreal can sail as comfortable as any of them in any situation.  We had 6 days in a row crossing the Atlantic of 35 to 40 kts and seas got really big.  My wife and I were tired after those days as one can imagine two 60  plus year olds in that situation but we were comfortable and we were amazed at how seaworthy the Boreal sailed, better than any bluewater boat I have sailed in the last 45 years of crossing oceans.  When we sold our Boreal to an English couple I told them before seatrials that we have sailed at 9 kts when we needed to.  I don't honestly think they believed me.  We went out for a couple of hours in 20 to 22 kts of wind and on a long and beautiful beam reach one reef in the main we sailed at 9 to 9.5 kts.  So the Boreal can sail with any of bluewater aluminum boats in bluewater conditions yet I think they are tougher, stronger and more well designed for all the needs than most of them.  Again I like all the boats mentioned in the thread here but one, won't mention which one.  But I think with the Boreal you get the best of all worlds.  

Jesus I sound like a true sales person for Boreal, maybe an ambasador for them but not a salesman.  Just want you to know that we found an amazing designed boat and were very happy with her for the four years we owned RC louise.

cheers

Steve

Edited by hannahhome
Bad english

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10 hours ago, Papaji said:

Has it been commissioned by someone or still on the drawboard?

This 42'-8" aluminum sailboat has been produced for a Design Competition by the "Blue Water Magazine". The challenge was : "How to manage a 10' Walker Bay dinghy on a boat". The plans are available.

 

240-01A.jpg

240-02A.jpg

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