Bruce Sutherland

Is there ANY Antifoul that works? ( Bottom paint?)

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We have just hauled out - we do about 3000 miles a year, can sometimes go quite fast ( Dazcat 1150)  and generally scrub every 4 to 6 weeks or before a race. Boat lives on a mooring in tidal water up a large river in the UK. 

The chosen paint this year was Nautix A3 - nice to put on smooth surface and we used white so easy to see the growth when cleaning....... but lots of barnacles and weed by end of season. It definitely ablated

Year before was Shogun Emperor - may have had a bad batch - like tar to put on - rough finish needed sanding before going in and did not really kill much. Enough said about that as it did not seem to ablate much either and horrible to remove

Year before was International VC - OK ish to paint - bit watery - did not really kill much and decided to go back to Nautix... but it was too cold in the UK to put it on so ended up using the Shogun as it had won best in test with PBO magazine..... 

 Year before was Nautix A4  - to die for to paint on - oh the finish - but did not really kill much

Having just spent the weekend staring up at the boats bottom and sanding the hulls just wondering if anyone has any super ideas for next years expensive not very killing paintwork exercise? 

 

 

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Since the US banned TBT paint it's difficult to get even 6 months without at least slime growing.  I'm really disappointed with he Seahawk antifouling I applied in April (2017), even in Seattle with fairly cold water the boat needs a diver to clean it already.

 

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Don't know if you can get it in the UK, but Seahawk biocop plus, works well for me. Can't get it in the US anymore unfortunately, luckily I stocked up before the ban.

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By far the best antifoul paint I ever used (about 30 years ago) was some US Navy surplus that they use on submarines. I left my midget ocean racer  in warm San Diego water for 5 years before we needed to start wiping the bottom before races.  Of course if you dripped the paint on your skin it raised an instant blister and nothing grew on the dock floats or one side of my neighbor's boat either.  Probably not environmentally safe but wow, it worked a charm.

 

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Here's my latest idea... hard polished waterproof bottom, IP2000 or durapox or whatever, then my new kickstarter idea, which is a series of soft buoyant containers with perforated bottoms strung together in a line that can be run around the boat when it's tied up... said containers filled with magic potion, currently thinking swimming pool chlorine pellets, so that your boat is constantly surrounded by a mildly unpleasant plume which prevents growth...

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20 minutes ago, overdraft said:

Here's my latest idea... hard polished waterproof bottom, IP2000 or durapox or whatever, then my new kickstarter idea, which is a series of soft buoyant containers with perforated bottoms strung together in a line that can be run around the boat when it's tied up... said containers filled with magic potion, currently thinking swimming pool chlorine pellets, so that your boat is constantly surrounded by a mildly unpleasant plume which prevents growth...

You mean something like this?

http://clearmarine.com/boat-baths/

Uses chlorine pucks (figures I guess being a Canadian company).  The FT-10 My Tai is shown in one of their baths.

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ya, that was an idea that had promise, but the guy who mades them doesn't really want to sell them... quoted  me $6k for a 22 foot boat! then tried to sell me an ultrasonic antifouling device instead... so i thought why not eliminate the troublesome bath part, which when you consider that it needs to be spiced up with chlorine isn't perhaps as efficacious as you'd thnk and creates issues with getting in and out, and being moved if your club moves you to a different slip. So cut straight to something that would just surround the boat with a solution  that would inhibit growth?

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Micron 66 works for me. Fast boat. Both cold and tropical water. Lotsa miles. Once a year. No build up.

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4 hours ago, 12 metre said:

You mean something like this?

http://clearmarine.com/boat-baths/

Uses chlorine pucks (figures I guess being a Canadian company).  The FT-10 My Tai is shown in one of their baths.

We used those boat-baths in 1967. Terrible pain in the ass as you have to turn them inside out every couple of weeks or the outside gets so foul it's impossible to turn.  Pool chlorine was used but not sure if it's environmentally accepted but it does keep the bottom clean.

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4 hours ago, overdraft said:

ya, that was an idea that had promise, but the guy who mades them doesn't really want to sell them... quoted  me $6k for a 22 foot boat! then tried to sell me an ultrasonic antifouling device instead... so i thought why not eliminate the troublesome bath part, which when you consider that it needs to be spiced up with chlorine isn't perhaps as efficacious as you'd thnk and creates issues with getting in and out, and being moved if your club moves you to a different slip. So cut straight to something that would just surround the boat with a solution  that would inhibit growth?

If I understand your idea correctly,  it may work in some areas, but in most of the local  marinas there is often a fair amount of current which would quickly diffuse the magic potion.

Yeah, I looked at the local boat baths a few years ago too and besides the high cost, there is the even bigger issue that sailronin mentions - you either have to periodically turn (clean the bath tub so to speak), or apply anti-fouling to the tub :blink: 

If you could get your system to work, it would probably sell like hotcakes in WA state in the next few years - unless ePaint can find a way to get over their apparent adhesion issues - although they have had a lot of time to sort that out.

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8 hours ago, daddle said:

Micron 66 works for me. Fast boat. Both cold and tropical water. Lotsa miles. Once a year. No build up.

Second this.  Switched from Vc offshore to this about 6 years ago.  Not as hard and smooth as vc but still wet sands well.  We paint every other season and only get a mile slime buildup after 6 weeks.  Easy to wipe with a sponge and usually only in areas the sun can reach 

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9 hours ago, 12 metre said:

If I understand your idea correctly,  it may work in some areas, but in most of the local  marinas there is often a fair amount of current which would quickly diffuse the magic potion.

Yeah, I looked at the local boat baths a few years ago too and besides the high cost, there is the even bigger issue that sailronin mentions - you either have to periodically turn (clean the bath tub so to speak), or apply anti-fouling to the tub :blink: 

If you could get your system to work, it would probably sell like hotcakes in WA state in the next few years - unless ePaint can find a way to get over their apparent adhesion issues - although they have had a lot of time to sort that out.

I forgot to mention the really terrible part of a boat bath. When it's done, either torn or too much growth (if you're lazy) to keep working or you sell the boat and buyer doesn't want the boat bath, you have to dispose of the monster.  Haul it out, cut up in small pieces and put in a dumpster.  The one I was exposed to was for a Soling (yes, people used to wet sail them long, long ago) and it was a full day's work for three guys to cut that terrible boat bath up and carry up the dock to a dumpster.

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On 10/30/2017 at 9:00 AM, sailronin said:

By far the best antifoul paint I ever used (about 30 years ago) was some US Navy surplus that they use on submarines. I left my midget ocean racer  in warm San Diego water for 5 years before we needed to start wiping the bottom before races.  Of course if you dripped the paint on your skin it raised an instant blister and nothing grew on the dock floats or one side of my neighbor's boat either.  Probably not environmentally safe but wow, it worked a charm.

 

That was probably Proline 1088, especially if it was the black stuff. Used in the Navy yards here for decades. I think over the years the copper content has been reduced but it's still pretty toxic. I sanded a 2 1/2 year old bottom in the water once and got rash everywhere. For the OP, the key is make sure your hull cleaner, if you have one, understands the worst thing he can do is sand or use an abrasive pad to clean a new bottom as that seals over the pores that leech the copper into the water. A towel or piece of shag carpet (if the still make it these days) should be all it takes to wipe the slime away for at least a year. When you have to go to brown Scotch Brite for the water line you're about six months from a new bottom job but really you should be getting better results, probably at least two years I'd say it's likely you're cleaning with too abrasive a material. 

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We had some jotun stuff that someone had bought a 20gal. drum of and shipped off 2l at a time on ebay. Worked went on easily and reasonably smooth (just light sanding in some spots needed), only had to really start scrubbing the bottom after about a year, before that a light slime would appear in the sunny spots every few weeks. Unfortunately the guy has stopped or run out.

Anyone tried this SilicOne  stuff from hempel? It's supposed to create a hydrophobic layer around the boat so it slides through the water. Supposed to....

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37 minutes ago, kinardly said:

That was probably Proline 1088, especially if it was the black stuff. Used in the Navy yards here for decades. I think over the years the copper content has been reduced but it's still pretty toxic. I sanded a 2 1/2 year old bottom in the water once and got rash everywhere. For the OP, the key is make sure your hull cleaner, if you have one, understands the worst thing he can do is sand or use an abrasive pad to clean a new bottom as that seals over the pores that leech the copper into the water. A towel or piece of shag carpet (if the still make it these days) should be all it takes to wipe the slime away for at least a year. When you have to go to brown Scotch Brite for the water line you're about six months from a new bottom job but really you should be getting better results, probably at least two years I'd say it's likely you're cleaning with too abrasive a material. 

I don't know the brand but TBT was listed as the biocide, this was long before TBT was illegal in the US.

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On 10/30/2017 at 6:29 PM, overdraft said:

Here's my latest idea... hard polished waterproof bottom, IP2000 or durapox or whatever, then my new kickstarter idea, which is a series of soft buoyant containers with perforated bottoms strung together in a line that can be run around the boat when it's tied up... said containers filled with magic potion, currently thinking swimming pool chlorine pellets, so that your boat is constantly surrounded by a mildly unpleasant plume which prevents growth...

Did you ever think about the environmental impact of this rather silly idea?

 

Btw - it wont work as the dilution will be enormous - all you will do is pollute the harbor

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well, is spite of being initially toxic enough to inhibit growth, at least chlorine breaks down into fairly harmless components fairly quickly in contrast with the current "state of the art" which seems to consist of mining toxic metals which will never break down and introducing them into the harbour instead, as well as requiring constant removal, disposal and reapplication... ya, i dunno how you'd control the dilution issue or i'd be rich instead of jusr someone tossing some different ideas around because the status quo is pretty lame...  now you go back to your canvas sails or gas powered outboard or whatever things were like when you ceased to be  inquisitive   :D

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Sailronin - OP here - after the slime we get very fine weed that sticks to the hull. We go in in March and by late May as the water warms weed starts to form. We always use at least two coats - always sanded back each year etc hence the frustration.  NB most boats are really bad this year and we are waiting for a similar boat that has been copper botted to be hauled to see what she is like. 

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My experience is limited to the San Francisco Bay Area, where our fouling is moderate to high, IMHO. I only ever recommend two products- Pettit Trinidad and Interlux Micron 66. Everything else runs a distant second, at best.

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On 11/2/2017 at 9:45 PM, fstbttms said:

My experience is limited to the San Francisco Bay Area, where our fouling is moderate to high, IMHO. I only ever recommend two products- Pettit Trinidad and Interlux Micron 66. Everything else runs a distant second, at best.

Fst - I use Micron 66. Just got a new bottom job. I'd have you clean her but I'm stranded in Monterey. I have previously wiped with the rough side of a bath towel. What should I tell the diver to use, and how, to clean it? If you can share?

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7 hours ago, daddle said:

Fst - I use Micron 66. Just got a new bottom job. I'd have you clean her but I'm stranded in Monterey. I have previously wiped with the rough side of a bath towel. What should I tell the diver to use, and how, to clean it? If you can share?

A towel is fine to begin with. Or a white Doodlebug pad or gentle brush.

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Micron CSC - you'll get three months without slime, then you need to start wiping.  Easy to wipe, I ask my diver to use a soft sponge.  I can also do it with my dock brush which has soft pile carpet on it.  Nice thing about CSC is  you can haul the boat for quite a long time without damaging the paint.  On the other hand, what good is a boat out of the water?

I purchased a boat bag in Australia back in the early 90's and brought it back to Canada intending to start a boat bag building business.  The environmental regulations scared me off once I got into the details.  Apparently you have to be a fish farm if you want to dump toxic chemicals into the ocean.   The folks who are putting chlorine pucks into the environment - really?  I was hoping to find something to use that wouldn't persist in the environment - maybe hydrogen peroxide - but didn't find anything that was cost effective.

I sold the bag I brought back as it didn't fit my boat, and it is still in use on a 26-footer here on the Island.  The outside of the bag doesn't seem to foul too much. 

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I used the new pettit black widow this year and the results were outstanding.

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2 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

cant wait for 2020 when there will not be any biocides in antifoul...

Nobody forced you to live in Washington. :lol:

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14 hours ago, Sailabout said:

its global..

 

Umm... a global ban on copper beginning in 2020? I'm not sure where you are getting your information chief, but I'd find another source if I were you.

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any biocides with be outlawed for use in antifoul.
You will still be allowed to have copper wires in your boat if thats what you concluded, hence you could still grind them up and do anything with it.

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Anybody else heard this? Sounds like BS.

On 12/7/2017 at 1:40 AM, Sailabout said:

any biocides with be outlawed for use in antifoul.
You will still be allowed to have copper wires in your boat if thats what you concluded, hence you could still grind them up and do anything with it.

 

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Micron 66.......now 7 years with two touch ups on leading edges and waterline. Race yacht and a wipeover about 3 weekly. In marina with no tide flow.Original job 7 litres when 4 were recommended. More expensive but paid for itself 3 times over plus !.

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7 hours ago, kinardly said:

Anybody else heard this? Sounds like BS.

 

Of course it's bullshit. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

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anyone have experience with silicone based anti fouling?

http://www.seacoat.com/product-2/

 

10 year warranty

been around 15 years

no effect on aluminum  hulls

self levels

no toxins

 

Only issue looks like if the sanding dust gets in the air, it will fisheye any paint/varnish job underway in the area.

Navy seems to be using it and they can use anything they want.

 

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We have a fresh water source near our basin so things grow rather fast. So I run the engine twice a week in forward and reverse to keep water flow going. Seems to help. 

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A guy down the dock from me just had the silicone job done. I'll know more in a year...

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12 hours ago, IStream said:

A guy down the dock from me just had the silicone job done. I'll know more in a year...

Do you know which Seattle yard did the application?

The slide deck for that silicone paint makes a lot of lofty claims. It seems like if it worked that well that it would already be in very wide use commercially. 

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17 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

anyone have experience with silicone based anti fouling?

http://www.seacoat.com/product-2/

 

10 year warranty

been around 15 years

no effect on aluminum  hulls

self levels

no toxins

 

Only issue looks like if the sanding dust gets in the air, it will fisheye any paint/varnish job underway in the area.

Navy seems to be using it and they can use anything they want.

 

Perhaps better still, there are silicone release wraps available now: 

There are other sources of this type of release film as well.  Not sure how effective it is and the application looks a bit bumpy to me.  But...if it works as promoted.

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14 hours ago, IStream said:

A guy down the dock from me just had the silicone job done. I'll know more in a year...

Silicone job for guys??  I always thought that was a ladies thing.  :D

Ooh! ooh! maybe silicone DOES have a beneficial place on a boat!  All I do is work on my boat, I have no idea what is going on in the rest of the world - what's a "silicone job"??

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I can see that becoming an SA ism :P

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On 10/30/2017 at 11:13 AM, tomtriad said:

Try ABC3 made by Pittsburg Paint. 40%copper goes on smooth and easy. Hard ablative good for fast hulls. Cheap at $150/gallon in US.

Don't have a can in front of me at the moment, but I've been using (something like) that for 10 years.  The PPG (I thought ABC3) paint I use is ship paint, has a five-year life, and everywhere I have purchased it is around USD $85/gallon.  The formulation changes from time to time, but what I have bought has always been %50 to %55 copper.  (Commercial use and application only, but we all have friends, yes?)  Altho PPG is an international company dunno if the ABC stuff is available in the UK, if you want ablative look for ship paint - it is expensive to haul ships to paint them!  The performance isn't spectacular anywhere I've lived, but then again all I do is work on my boat - I don't get to sail it very often.  :angry:  Even when the waterline of my boat looks like only a lawn mower could remedy it the divers never complain and always remark how easy the algae forest wipes off, and barnacles (on the paint) are rare.

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10 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Ask capt gigi.

Whatever that means it sounds dangerous, think I'll have another beer instead.  :ph34r:

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Speaking of beer, if we spent the money on beer instead of bottom paint (considering the haul, block, lay-up and labor costs too) would we *really* notice or care about the bottom of the boat??? :D

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17 hours ago, Foreverslow said:

anyone have experience with silicone based anti fouling?

http://www.seacoat.com/product-2/

Only issue looks like if the sanding dust gets in the air, it will fisheye any paint/varnish job underway in the area.

Navy seems to be using it and they can use anything they want.

 

Hmmm, thanks for the link Foreverslow, checked it out just now, well the testimonials section, and don't see any testimonials from grotty yachties struggling to care for their boats ... whether in tropical paradise or polluted industrial areas.  Additionally, I've been reading Professional Boatbuilder for eight or so years and don't recall seeing any advertisements for the Si coating, and  certainly no comments from industry use of the product.  Regardless if Alex W 's point was directed at the Si product, it is appropriately applicable.

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1 hour ago, Sea-lution said:

Whatever that means it sounds dangerous, think I'll have another beer instead.  :ph34r:

Lucky you not to recognize the reference. 

I owed you a plus one. A beer drinking boat owning babe willing to work has to be taken care of 'round here. Cheers!

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5 hours ago, Alex W said:

Do you know which Seattle yard did the application?

The slide deck for that silicone paint makes a lot of lofty claims. It seems like if it worked that well that it would already be in very wide use commercially. 

I think it was CSR but I'll find out for sure the next time I see him.

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Early last summer I coated the bottom of my dinghy with this stuff:

http://www.fasterwithseaslide.com/

Bought some from a friend of mine, he claims it keeps the bottom of his sailboat pretty clean, and it was cheap, so I decided to give it a go on the dinghy. Interesting, as the web site doesn't even mention this as an anti-foulant, only as a speed enhancer. So I wasn't expecting much ... BUT, after the entire summer and part of the fall with the dinghy in the water, not a bit of bottom growth! Not even a little slime! By comparison, my sailboat in the same berth was bottom painted with good copper based paint the beginning of the summer and by fall it already had the start of an ecosystem going on the hull.

DISCLAIMER: I have no affiliation with this Seaslide company, and I'm still very skeptical about this, but man, my dinghy don't lie!

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20 hours ago, wristwister said:

Early last summer I coated the bottom of my dinghy with this stuff:

http://www.fasterwithseaslide.com/

Bought some from a friend of mine, he claims it keeps the bottom of his sailboat pretty clean, and it was cheap, so I decided to give it a go on the dinghy. Interesting, as the web site doesn't even mention this as an anti-foulant, only as a speed enhancer. So I wasn't expecting much ... BUT, after the entire summer and part of the fall with the dinghy in the water, not a bit of bottom growth! Not even a little slime! By comparison, my sailboat in the same berth was bottom painted with good copper based paint the beginning of the summer and by fall it already had the start of an ecosystem going on the hull.

DISCLAIMER: I have no affiliation with this Seaslide company, and I'm still very skeptical about this, but man, my dinghy don't lie!

Boy I'd like to believe in something like this but it just smacks of snake oil to me. I would think the potential returns are sufficient to justify a full on test on real boats in real environments by Practical Sailor or some other third party.  

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55 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Boy I'd like to believe in something like this but it just smacks of snake oil to me. I would think the potential returns are sufficient to justify a full on test on real boats in real environments by Practical Sailor or some other third party.  

I had the same thought.  It looks like it's been around since the late 90s or early 2000s.  It seems like if it really does work well that it should be well discussed.

wristwister and I live and sail in the same waters, so it working here is interesting.  I'm not ready to coat my boat in it yet, but could try and a small amount on my dinghy.

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Agreed, the idea of this stuff as an antifoulant seems like snake oil, but damn, I'm having trouble explaining the bottom of my dinghy!

My Columbia is due for haul out and bottom paint. It's my little farting around in boat, and I've got a certificate for 50% off haul-out and cleaning. I'm considering just plastering this stuff on and seeing how it does. But then again, that boat isn't a very good test of anti-foulant. It bounces back and forth between fresh water and salt water which keeps growth minimal anyway.

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Slippery -"non-biocidal" paints supposedly that are the future.

Intersleek 1100SR .....1500 euro for 10L  modified polydimethylsiloxane/FluorinatedPolyethylene glycol co- polmer -3knt self cleaning

Intersleek Pro.............$300 for 5L   PTFE polytetrafluoroethylene non biocidal - 12knt  self cleaning. Avail. Fisheries Co. (minus tie coat) $160

Hempasil X.........can't remember.

Curiously, or not so, some of these have organotin cataysts.

Albeit, in quantities approved by the powers that be as "non-biocidal adjuncts" that are bound up in the co-polymer.

At this time they are not willing to sell to recreational users.

The intersleek 1100sr is supposedly Hydrophobic & hydrophilic at the same time to cover wider bio-film method of attachment.

at 24mnths

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Foul-release coatings such as the Interlux Intersleek line mentioned above have been available for years. They are not futuristic anti fouling technology. And in the case of Intersleek, the manufacturer decided to cease marketing it to recreational boaters due to lack of interest from consumers as well as boatyards.

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I think it has come a long way since the first iteration in 1996, intersleek 425. (700,900,1000 & latest)

Problem is it is easily damaged, difficult to put on. Tie coat being essential.

Coupled with three x cost of top current antifoul,.

I can see consumer resistance there.

The latest claim of slime release at 3knts is ambitious.

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I would give it a go...if I could buy it. Not the Pro, prefer the 1100SR if at all.

It is not available here and would be 5x price if it was.

 

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On 2/28/2018 at 5:22 AM, Pukka said:

I think it has come a long way since the first iteration in 1996, intersleek 425. (700,900,1000 & latest)

Problem is it is easily damaged, difficult to put on. Tie coat being essential.

Coupled with three x cost of top current antifoul,.

I can see consumer resistance there.

The latest claim of slime release at 3knts is ambitious.

The mega sailing yachts are using it.  Ive seen a few applications done.  The system works . Any slim or barnacle growth washs off with low pressure...a garden hose.

they are also marketing a plastic film...biocide and slippery stuff. 

a few of the race boats applied it last year

comes in rolls , applied over epoxy primer bottom 

similar to the film that is used on topsides

 

 

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