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Huh? New Sunfish Class?

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35 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You really don't understand what is going on. If WS recognises ISCO, then ISCA is finished. They could not organise any major events. No worlds, pan americans etc. They might even have problems running local events Why? Because all clubs are affiliated to US Sailing and US Sailing is affiliated to WS. If ISCO wins out, the word will come down that ISCA events are unsanctioned. I believe that in the US this could lead to a grey area, but as already stated, ISCA do not have the resources to fight he type of battle they are getting engaged in. For the average sailor, nothing would really change if ISCO wins the day. Events would still go on and club sailing would still happen. ISCA might have to give up using the name, their boats with ISCA approved spares would not be eligible for Sunfish events like the worlds etc. In the end, everybody would fall in behind ISCO because there wouldn't be any alternative.

The only hope that ISCA has is that WS continues to recognise them as the class association and does not recognise ISCO. The biggest problem for ISCA is that they simply do not have the resources to fight this battle without WS behind them. LP has already shown it is prepared to throw a lot of money at legal problems like this. Do not underestimate just how far they will go. Without support from WS, ISCA is finished. WS is the whole ballgame, which is why it was so stupid to announce what they did before fully gaining the support of WS. You have no idea about how much power LP has over WS. A proper letter of support would have been very hard for LP to fight against, but they have enough to now stop that letter ever being written.

At the moment, only ISCA meets the requirement to be a recognized International Class by World Sailing. ISCO does not, and will be a year or more until they do.

If WS does throw ISCA under the bus, they most certainly can continue racing. They won't be able to use the term 'World' in World Championships is all. They can call it the Intergalactic Championships. Nothing LP or WS can do about it. .PanAm Games are hosted by PanAm Games committee. ISCA has nothing to do with organizing them other than providing technical help in regards to measurement. 

The only power LP has over ISCA is use of trademark and logo. So ISCA quit using them. LP may be able to use their money to buy a favorable decision from WS, but that's not a certainty. Even so, it doesn't prevent ISCA from organizing events for Sunfish boats under whatever rules they want. And LP risks a PR disaster. They are already guilty of theft of ISCA's IP. 

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11 minutes ago, JimC said:

The key thing ISCA have to do,  and which I don't see them doing, is to encourage their membership *not* to sign up to ISCO. If ISCO can demonstrate a membership as large as ISCAs then the game is effectively over. Nothing else really matters nearly as much.  Because if LP can demonstrate that ISCO represents more Sunfish sailors than ISCA then World sailing has little choice but to recognise them.

And LP will be doing everthing they can to inflate that membership figure. Every Sunfish sailor who says, well of course I support ISCA,  but if I sign up free to ISCO as well I also get this benefit or this freebie is ensuring LP wins. Don't be mistaken, any contact with LP about Sunfish will get you signed up as an ISCO member. I bet all the ISCA officers and volunteers that LP have on any mailing lists are already on the ISCO membership list.

ISCA has already communicated to members not to join ISCO or sign up for any other LP promoted group. That was in the Presidents letter. Apparently you didn't read it before commenting.

I doubt that many ISCA members will join ISCO. Some might. ISCO might entice some non-ISCA members to sign up with the free membership, but it's unlikely they'd show up at regattas or volunteer to help run class or they already would have done so with ISCA. LP may also fabricate phantom class members in several countries to achieve WS requirements for an International class, but again, they won't show up or volunteer. And they risk getting caught. 

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I have read

https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ISCA_President_Letter_Nov-07-17.pdf

several times and see no great emphasis on the need not to sign up to ISCO.

The other weak point for ISCA is what exactly do they do if LP make an insignificant change to the spec that pus the boats out of class. Say that Sunfish built after xx.xx.2018 aren't really Sunfish? Good luck with that.

I hope ISCA prevail. If they work their arses off and avoid getting into the legal system any further than cease and desist letters then I think there's a small chance they can. But if ILCO can claim significant uptake among Sunfish sailors they are finished. There will always be enough people who will 'compromise' that some sort of Sunfish organisation will continue. It may be a greatly inferior organisation, but most people won't care.

We had an example recently in the UK. A site owner effectively closed down a long established sailing club by making it impossible for them to operate as a proper sailing club. Within days there was a new body with a significant, if smaller membership, operating in accordance with the new conditions the developer wanted to unilaterally impose. 

 

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Every day the AERO looks , by comparison, to be more attractive. 

I miss the days when the only thing fleet's and class organizations did was try to figure out how to get more people out to play.

EVERY SECOND AND EVERY DOLLAR USED ON SOMETHING ELSE  IS WASTED. 

Simple question:

Will this effort / change/ improvement/ new rule  cause the game to be played by more people.

If the answer is yes, the question changes to, "How  do we get this done?"

If the answer is no, do not do it!!!

+++++

 

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On 11/15/2017 at 10:51 PM, ~HHN92~ said:

Letter from the ISCA President …
     As most of you know from my letter last week, LP is using deception to start their own Sunfish Class, ISCO. This was done in retaliation because the World Council would not sign over our rights to the ISCA initials and the name International Sunfish Class Association in a restrictive trademark agreement to LP. At our World Council meeting held in Brant Beach on August 30, 2017, we voted that we would not relinquish our rights to ISCA at any cost. Enough was enough.      The class is tired of being held hostage to LP.  From threatening to withhold World Championship boat shipments, unless we signed the agreement, to not being able to get class legal parts for many years, created the need for the World Council to take action.  The World Council has changed the class rules to allow ISCA, not the builder, to approve class legal parts for the boats.  These rule changes have been submitted to World Sailing, and they have assured ISCA that they are working to approve this ASAP. Unfortunately, LP has left the Class with more problems than solutions, broken promises and few choices.  It would be ideal if LP could just support the class make boats, and let us sail them.      Recently LP has notified many of you to sign an agreement with them.  We caution you … DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING from LP, Velum or ISCO! Beware; LP has many different layered companies. Although the letter stated it was signed by ISCA, it was not!  ISCA had nothing to do with the letter.  All of ISCA’s letters will originate from the Class office.     This agreement is being done to benefit LP, not one­design sailing for our Class. Once again LP offers nothing. Where is their plan for charter boats?  Since 2011 ISCA has to find a dealer to layout all of the money for the World Championship Charters.  With all of the problems over the years this has become an increasingly difficult sell to dealers. Therefore, the 2018 ISCA World Championships will be a bring your own boat Regatta. (see NOR link below)
https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/nor_2013/NOR_2018_ISCA_WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP_Preliminary.pdf

Bolded  for JimC

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18 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Every day the AERO looks , by comparison, to be more attractive. 

I miss the days when the only thing fleet's and class organizations did was try to figure out how to get more people out to play.

EVERY SECOND AND EVERY DOLLAR USED ON SOMETHING ELSE  IS WASTED. 

Simple question:

Will this effort / change/ improvement/ new rule  cause the game to be played by more people.

If the answer is yes, the question changes to, "How  do we get this done?"

If the answer is no, do not do it!!!

+++++

 

Agree, RS could end up being the winner. As far as I'm aware, their customers are happy. At least RS isn't deliberately pissing them off.

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55 minutes ago, RKoch said:

At the moment, only ISCA meets the requirement to be a recognized International Class by World Sailing. ISCO does not, and will be a year or more until they do.

You are mistaken. This is not a new class and therefore doesn't need to go through the same things as a new class. The paperwork would take anybody competent about a week. Remember, when this really kicks off, ISCA will be taken to court to stop them using the Sunfish name, logo etc. The only organisation representing Sunfish will be the ISCO. Sunfish is already an International class and a change in class association will not change that.

1 hour ago, RKoch said:

LP may be able to use their money to buy a favorable decision from WS

LP doesn't need to spend money to influence WS. Directly or indirectly, they account for something between 30-35% of WS's total revenues. The "doomsday" scenario (highly unlikely) is that LP cancels all contracts with WS for acting against the interests of LP and the WS is screwed. How does the "doomsday" scenario play out? It is all around the Laser. If LP pulls the pin on their contract for the Laser and the olympics, I believe there is a chance that they could prevent the Laser being used. Because of the way the IOC signs off on events a disciplines, by the time that happens (maybe mid 2018) it will not be possible to substitute another class. Without the Laser, WS loses 2 events at the games with about 35% of the competitors. That would directly decrease the income received from the IOC in direct proportion. Then take off the money LP pumps into WS through the Maclaren sponsorship. Bottom line - no Laser = WS  bankrupt. Sure, this is an extreme and it is highly unlikely, but don't think for one minute LP wouldn't go nuclear. Everybody knows that so the end game will never happen. WS will cave well before that, if boxed into that corner, just like they have done before.

I remain convinced that the only hope ISCA has is for a low take up of ISCO membership and hat WS comes out speedily in their favour. Their statement will not have helped because they have broken all confidences in disclosing the contents of informal discussions. Nobody likes to be boxed into a corner by somebody disclosing off the record discussions and WS will be no different. They have also highlighted to LP where the game really is. That statement was simply dumb.

1 hour ago, RKoch said:

And LP risks a PR disaster

Now you are making me laugh. Look at what they have been doing for the last however many years. Do you really think they care. The naivety continues. 

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The name "Sunfish" certainly has value as a brand.  Many non-sailors are familiar with the boats, almost to the point that "sunfish" is a generic term for small, single-handed boats.

LP would like to expand the Sunfish brand globally, but have agreements with the ISCA (and WS) that restrict how the boat can be built and marketed.  They create this row over intellectual property, so the class severs ties to go off and do their own thing.

Is this what Nasty Rasty wanted all along?  Free of the restrictions of class racing, LP can modify the boat in ways to make it more profitable to sell to resorts and sailing schools.  The ISCO will never be viable, and it was never meant to be.  It all seems part of an evil, dastardly plan.

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

 

LP would like to expand the Sunfish brand globally, but have agreements with the ISCA (and WS) that restrict how the boat can be built and marketed.  They create this row over intellectual property, so the class severs ties to go off and do their own thing.

 

Completely incorrect.  ISCA would welcome LP marketing the Sunfish worldwide. There is no restriction or objection to them doing so. ISCA is willing to renew the previous licensing agreement with LP, and does not claim to own the Sunfish trademark or logo. What ISCA is not willing to do is turn over ISCAs IP to LP, which is their name, initials, and rules. LP is demanding they do so. 

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I don't know about the Sunfish, but all Lasers are required to be 100% in class compliance out of the factory door.  I've heard stories of builders trying to sell "recreational Lasers" that were less expensive, but not class legal to race.  I'm not talking about a Laser Vago or the like, but the Laser hull in a lesser package.

Imagine a boat that kind of looks like the Sunfish, built in a Chinese factory to a lesser quality.  Cheaply built, doesn't measusre in.  It may sell to sailing schools and resorts, but racers turn up their nose at it.  It may be difficult to call it a "Sunfish" without the class approval.

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1 minute ago, torrid said:

I don't know about the Sunfish, but all Lasers are required to be 100% in class compliance out of the factory door.  I've heard stories of builders trying to sell "recreational Lasers" that were less expensive, but not class legal to race.  I'm not talking about a Laser Vago or the like, but the Laser hull in a lesser package.

Sunfish Class rules say, in essence, however the builder sends them out the door is legal. What the Class rules go into detail on is what modifications to the boat are permitted. If a modification isn't expressly permitted, it is prohibited.

The builder could probably start building roto-molded Sunfish, and they would be legal. What the builder can't do is ban fiberglass Sunfish so everyone has to buy a new one. That rule change (like every other) has to pass the Rules Committee, who then submit it to the World Council for approval, who then submit it to WS for approval. Rules Committee and World Council are comprised of ISCA members...Sunfish sailors...plus a builder representative. Those committee and Council members have already been to general membership meetings etc of the countries they're from, and are assumed to be representing the wishes of Sunfish sailors in their countries.

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Solutions

Does anybody want to solve the "How do we preserve our game?" Question 

or

Is this just a bunch of ninnies who want to be "in charge."

The only real answer for preserving the game is to remove the opportunity for other parties to control the supply of toys. 

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos. 

 

Either find an interested entrepreneur or finance new builders. 

Or

move on with life and find a new game to play 

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Solutions

Does anybody want to solve the "How do we preserve our game?" Question 

or

Is this just a bunch of ninnies who want to be "in charge."

The only real answer for preserving the game is to remove the opportunity for other parties to control the supply of toys. 

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos. 

 

Either find an interested entrepreneur or finance new builders. 

Or

move on with life and find a new game to play 

That might just be what ISCA does if they don't prevail. It's a viable and enthusiastic organization. They could just step into another boat. 

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53 minutes ago, RKoch said:

That might just be what ISCA does if they don't prevail. It's a viable and enthusiastic organization. They could just step into another boat. 

LOL the Phantom returns...

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The current strength of the Sunfish and Laser games comes from the availability of toys. 

The huge dealer network built those fleet's and the thousands of still functional toys and occasional new boats have been preserving those games. 

Example:

(As  I understand it, there are similar stories to be told  about clubs all over North America) 

Austin Yacht club has as many as fifty sailors playing in Sunfish and Lasers on any summer Wednesday night. No toy used this summer was built after 2010. 

Also, no sailor except juniors took up sailing in those fleet's after 2010. Most have sailed in those fleets since before 2000 and a large number since before 1990. 

The games are certainly being played and compared to any other singlehanded  fleet's,  the games are vibrant. 

I am 100% certain the games would be much more vibrant if we had a stocking dealer with boats and parts and who used the local fleet as a selling tool and a market. 

Since 2010 we have had no such dealer. Currently,  there are no new laser/ Sunfish boats or parts available within 1000 miles. The games continue. 

On any given night, ten of the Lasers and Sunfish are from former group /fleet purchases. Another five are from world championship leftovers. Another few are from events where there were supplied boats. 

Unless new toys become available again the fleet absolutely will slowly and surely  die. 

If the new toys are not compatible with the old games, the new game will need many years to develop and mature to resemble that which is currently in peril. 

This old fart REALLY does not wish to attempt to start from scratch again. The masters sailors I so enjoy aren't going to buy into and learn about a new boat. 

Financially, our game is severely threatened as many of the players can barely afford the current game. They cannot buy a new toy. 

Back to Austin; many  of the players are old enough such that many  of them have insufficient incentive to invest in new toys for the old fleet and have zero interest in the purchase of a new toy for a fledgling fleet. 

New toys of a new type absolutely will not save the Austin game.  The best we could hope for with new different toys would be a new group in new boats and maybe a few of us from the old fleet's would join in. 

As I see it, the only future ( ten years out) for Lasers and Sunfish sailing comes from having a great supply of NEW toys and parts. 

It would be best for each game if a new owner who valued racing could take over the "franchise " currently controlled by LP.  ( yes! I know franchise is the wrong word. I don't have a better one )

i also believe their is a sufficient market for single handed Sunfish / Laser  racing toys such that a small company could serve that market while making money. 

The problem is the continued insistence by the class associations to allow only brand name Sunfish and Lasers. 

Whenever that that restriction is lifted, the games MAY have a chance to survive.

 

 

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On 11/18/2017 at 9:35 PM, Gouvernail said:

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos.

 

OK, wait, you lost me.  Sometimes on these litigation thread things get turned into a bit of trolling when you get some kook who just canntt understand basic facts.  Other than Koch's recent well intentioned (he clearly loves the class and grass roots sailing) recent blinder this thread has been pretty sane and sober.  And there is a common theme in favor of sailors, grass roots, and supporting a class which your above statement is consistent with.  But its also a huge surprise from you.  You are essentially calling for generic boats.  Generic sunfish and generic lasers.  Now don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of this.  Said so many times years and years ago in the Laser litigation thread and much to my surprise YOU were vehemently opposed. You were in love with SMOD and only SMOD.  So I am just asking... pick one side of the fence or the other.  Are you in favor of SMOD or generic boats (like Snipes for example) without trademark protection and having multiple builders.  You know where I stand but you seem to have just done the biggest flip flops ever in the history of your (well intentioned) rants. So I had to ask...

And for what its worth this is also why I am so down on BK and think he wears the blackest of all the black hats in the Laser mess. He could have done exactly what you said with the Torch.  I think he was perhaps (and still is) uniquely qualified to do it.  And think of the history of club level Laser sailing (think unofficial but rapid and overwhelming acceptance of generic parts and sails at the club level) to indicate it would have been successful if he had done it.  And consider that BK said he was going to do it and he was all about the sailors.  But instead.... :(.  Well I got a nice historic Torch T-shirt and belt...

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World Sailing Regulations:

2017RegulationsClean-%5B22923%5D.pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2017RegulationsClean-[22923].pdf

If you scroll down to Section 1 part III (page 48), , it outlines the procedures and requirements to become a recognized Class, and requirements to maintain that status. To date, ISCA hasn't done anything to warrant removal by WS. OTOH, ISCO has met none of the necessary requirements. If WS follows their own regulations, they'll back ISCA and disallow LP's attempt to hijack the class. If WS decides to follow McLarens money, they would appear to be in violation of their own constitution. I don't think they'd want to open that Pandoras Box.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

OK, wait, you lost me.  Sometimes on these litigation thread things get turned into a bit of trolling when you get some kook who just canntt understand basic facts.  Other than Koch's recent well intentioned (he clearly loves the class and grass roots sailing) recent blinder this thread has been pretty sane and sober.  And there is a common theme in favor of sailors, grass roots, and supporting a class which your above statement is consistent with.  But its also a huge surprise from you.  You are essentially calling for generic boats.  Generic sunfish and generic lasers.  Now don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of this.  Said so many times years and years ago in the Laser litigation thread and much to my surprise YOU were vehemently opposed. You were in love with SMOD and only SMOD.  So I am just asking... pick one side of the fence or the other.  Are you in favor of SMOD or generic boats (like Snipes for example) without trademark protection and having multiple builders.  You know where I stand but you seem to have just done the biggest flip flops ever in the history of your (well intentioned) rants. So I had to ask...

And for what its worth this is also why I am so down on BK and think he wears the blackest of all the black hats in the Laser mess. He could have done exactly what you said with the Torch.  I think he was perhaps (and still is) uniquely qualified to do it.  And think of the history of club level Laser sailing (think unofficial but rapid and overwhelming acceptance of generic parts and sails at the club level) to indicate it would have been successful if he had done it.  And consider that BK said he was going to do it and he was all about the sailors.  But instead.... :(.  Well I got a nice historic Torch T-shirt and belt...

I think you are being a little unfair on BK

and a little naive about classes with open builders

BK was not in a position to change the Laser into an open builder class. Sure, anyone can build a Laser look alike but to start commercial production in the face of three builders with world wide trade marks, a recognized international class, a large and organized class organization and an Olympic status was a non-starter. It would also in flagrant breach of his contract with the organization formerly known as ISAF.  The Torch was a non-starter......dont say we didnt warn you.   But the T shirt is cool as hell and the belt will keep your pants up...which is more than we can say for Global Sailing's pants.

Open builders works okay in strong classes where the builders are supported by a very strong class organization. It does not work where a class needs builder support for obvious reasons.  The Snipe is an example of what? A thriving growing class with how many US builders and how many new boats being built a year? Dont get me wrong...I have seen a jibetech Snipe , it is a work of art, but they cannot spend money promoting a world wide class that others will profit from.

 

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I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

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1 minute ago, IPLore said:

I think you are being a little unfair on BK

and a little naive about classes with open builders

BK was not in a position to change the Laser into an open builder class. Sure, anyone can build a Laser look alike but to start commercial production in the face of three builders with world wide trade marks, a recognized international class, a large and organized class organization and an Olympic status was a non-starter. It would also in flagrant breach of his contract with the organization formerly known as ISAF.  The Torch was a non-starter......dont say we didnt warn you.   But the T shirt is cool as hell and the belt will keep your pants up...which is more than we can say for Global Sailing's pants.

Open builders works okay in strong classes where the builders are supported by a very strong class organization. It does not work where a class needs builder support for obvious reasons.  The Snipe is an example of what? A thriving growing class with how many US builders and how many new boats being built a year? Dont get me wrong...I have seen a jibetech Snipe , it is a work of art, but they cannot spend money promoting a world wide class that others will profit from.

 

Hey I get there are benefits to both.  I just happen to prefer the open or generic model.  Not wedded to it and have happily sailed in each type of class.  I was simply surprised by Gouv's apparent flip flop because he seemed wedded to SMOD and only SMOD and would skewer me every time I tried to talk him into the non trademarked generic Laser model.  I think I do disagree with you on BK.  He could (and still can) do exactly that by launching the Torch and the Torch class and having that class accept any boat meeting the standard which would have included Lasers.  Everything you described above is what the top what 5% of Laser sailors care about.  But is it a non-started for the 95% of club sailors... who readily adopted generic parts and sails already?  I don't think its a clear non-starter.  I do know and agree it was an (apparent) legal maneuver and pressure tactic / PR move and he was never going to actually do it and that is why I am so negative about him.  If he was truly all about the grass roots sailor he coulda walked his talk... but didn't.   But I don't want to get into a BK he said/she said argument. I was bummed but I think I can (and did) get over it, LOL.  Not exactly a big deal.  And neither is this but I do wonder why the flip flop Gouv (if I didn't misunderstand your intent).

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

Yes. Also the Aquafinn and several other copies.

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3 hours ago, bill4 said:

I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

The Phantom was built by Howmar (builder of Designers Choice dinghy too). Not a splashed 'fish; longer, wider, deeper. Had one for a few years. The extra area aft improves the behavior of the boat.

 

Sailboat-Howmar-(Now-J-Point)-8b4f6070-5

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24 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

The Phantom was built by Howmar (builder of Designers Choice dinghy too). Not a splashed 'fish; longer, wider, deeper. Had one for a few years. The extra area aft improves the behavior of the boat.

 

Sailboat-Howmar-(Now-J-Point)-8b4f6070-5

Yep. Really a fine boat actually.

I circumnavigated Hilton Head in 1985 on one with a friend. We left promptly at 0600 from Sea Pines clockwise. We were back in under 9 hours. We had a big breeze come up and capsized going downwind after passing Harbourtown. Then we beat out of the northern inlet and fetched along the coast with just a few tacks early on.

Sunfish has the Cache as the original and of course it was a CT yankee like me and they sailed the first sailfish in my town...but the Phantom was a good and possibly better boat.

 

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21 hours ago, RKoch said:

Yes. Also the Aquafinn and several other copies.

The 'Bloody' Aquafin per Peter J. back in '93 at the Worlds.

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On 11/20/2017 at 3:29 PM, Wess said:

 I think I do disagree with you on BK.  He could (and still can) do exactly that by launching the Torch and the Torch class and having that class accept any boat meeting the standard which would have included Lasers.  .......I don't think its a clear non-starter.  I do know and agree it was an (apparent) legal maneuver and pressure tactic / PR move and he was never going to actually do it and that is why I am so negative about him.

Maybe after a few cocktails with his old sailmaker friends from Canada he was actually serious about launching the Torch.  But once the lawyers got hold of him, they might have wished they had hidden his keyboard from him.

IMHO, it was not a smart move. Breach of contract with ISAF and LP.  Weakened the already wounded tortious interference claim.

You will recall that I was critical of the lawsuit vs the class BUT I hope when all is said and done, the sailing world will remember the many good things that Bruce Kirby contributed to sailing.  The Laser changed a generation and made sailing hugely accessible.   He was a brilliant designer in his youth and remains a passionate character in his latter years.  I read somewhere that he still goes  sailboat racing every Sunday afternoon in the Summer......

But back to the Sunfish.

 

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Maybe after a few cocktails with his old sailmaker friends from Canada he was actually serious about launching the Torch.  But once the lawyers got hold of him, they might have wished they had hidden his keyboard from him.

IMHO, it was not a smart move. Breach of contract with ISAF and LP.  Weakened the already wounded tortious interference claim.

You will recall that I was critical of the lawsuit vs the class BUT I hope when all is said and done, the sailing world will remember the many good things that Bruce Kirby contributed to sailing.  The Laser changed a generation and made sailing hugely accessible.   He was a brilliant designer in his youth and remains a passionate character in his latter years.  I read somewhere that he still goes  sailboat racing every Sunday afternoon in the Summer......

But back to the Sunfish.

 

 

Oh I agree it was stupid in context of the lawsuit. Heck it's a good way to lose money even absent all that. But... he said he would and having sold away his rights he certainly could. But we are making this about Kirby and that is a tangent which is solely opinion anyway. Black hat or white hat; I can respect both views. 

My interest is @Gouvernail comment about being in favor of generic boats. Curious if he really means that.

But either way best wishes for a safe travels and a happy holiday for all those celebrating thanksgiving!

 

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so, does anyone know how all this might affect the 2018 worlds at Wrightsville? Has anyone said anything about that in particular?

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

so, does anyone know how all this might affect the 2018 worlds at Wrightsville? Has anyone said anything about that in particular?

Well I guess if ISCA and LP can't come to any agreement then there won't be any charter boats from LP at Wrightsville Beach.

NOR says competitors "may" provide their own boats, 2018 ISCA Worlds Sails will be provided, and they are planning  to accommodate 100 competitors.

Should be fun... as long as LP's lawyers don't manage to shut the whole show down.

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

Well I guess if ISCA and LP can't come to any agreement then there won't be any charter boats from LP at Wrightsville Beach.

NOR says competitors "may" provide their own boats, 2018 ISCA Worlds Sails will be provided, and they are planning  to accommodate 100 competitors.

Should be fun... as long as LP's lawyers don't manage to shut the whole show down.

If LP tries to shut it down,  the organizers will need to provide for more than 100 entries. It will become a pilgrimage for anyone and everyone who has ever sailed a sunfish and one design class supporters everywhere.

Hell, I would even borrow one just to be there. 

LP have likely won the PR fiasco of the year award for 2017. Would they shoot for 2018 as well?

 

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I have just noticed a few significant things about the Preliminary NOR for the 2018 ISCA World Championship...

The Sunfish logo does not appear anywhere in the NOR.

The word "Sunfish" is not used anywhere in the NOR except within the URL for the registration form and the email addresses for the class office and the class president. (And I expect those could be changed too before next March?)

The ISCA logo (with the A drawn like a sail) Is prominent in on the heading of every page as part of the slogan "ISCA since 1984."

Every page is marked as "Proprietary Information to ISCA."

There is a footer on every page that says "ISCA is a one design class affiliated to World Sailing, Pan-American Sailing Federation Games" using the logos of all 4 organizations.

I often think that NORs read like they have been written by lawyers - but it looks like the lawyers really have had their influence on this one! 

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Does this mean yacht clubs are now going to have to submit all NORs to legal review before posting them to the web?

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11 minutes ago, torrid said:

Does this mean yacht clubs are now going to have to submit all NORs to legal review before posting them to the web?

Bill Crane did say in the (morning) webinar last week that LP won't go after individual clubs for using the word Sunfish. But he was absolutely clear that they would sue ISCA if they thought ISCA were infringing on LP intellectual property rights.

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Looks like ISCA has the support of World Sailing...

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017

In a letter to the President of ISCA, the CEO of World Sailing says

“World Sailing cannot accept a rival international class association being created without the consent of the current class.  Doing so fundamentally undermines the Class’s membership of World Sailing and the purpose of World Sailing Classes.  In particular, ISCA has an obligation under the World Sailing Constitution to (emphasis added):

“… be responsible for implementing the objects and decision of the Federation affecting their classes and for protecting the design characteristics of their class” [Art. 8].

It is almost inconceivable that World Sailing could admit ISCO to World Sailing Class membership (without the agreement of ISCA) as this would undermine ISCA’s right and obligation under our Constitution to protect the design characteristics of their class.”

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

If LP tries to shut it down,  the organizers will need to provide for more than 100 entries. It will become a pilgrimage for anyone and everyone who has ever sailed a sunfish and one design class supporters everywhere.

Hell, I would even borrow one just to be there. 

LP have likely won the PR fiasco of the year award for 2017. Would they shoot for 2018 as well?

 

Idealism aside the 100 boat limit may be partially to do with somewhat limited storage space at the CYC. Do you have to qualify for the worlds or could I just sign up? :P

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4 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

Idealism aside the 100 boat limit may be partially to do with somewhat limited storage space at the CYC. Do you have to qualify for the worlds or could I just sign up? :P

There are rules about qualification.

Read the NOR and USSCA Class Notice.

Having said that, when I was a member of the Sunfish Class back in the late 1990s, it was a lot easier to "qualify" for a 100 boat Worlds than you might think. Hell, they even invited me to the Sunfish Worlds three times.

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Even this Sunfish fiasco and the Laser mess are resolved, I am never buying another boat made by Laser Performance.  I'll begrudgingly buy class-legal parts to keep my current boat going, but that is all.  LP has shown their true colors, and they are company I do not wish to support.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Looks like ISCA has the support of World Sailing...

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017

In a letter to the President of ISCA, the CEO of World Sailing says

“World Sailing cannot accept a rival international class association being created without the consent of the current class.  Doing so fundamentally undermines the Class’s membership of World Sailing and the purpose of World Sailing Classes.  In particular, ISCA has an obligation under the World Sailing Constitution to (emphasis added):

“… be responsible for implementing the objects and decision of the Federation affecting their classes and for protecting the design characteristics of their class” [Art. 8].

It is almost inconceivable that World Sailing could admit ISCO to World Sailing Class membership (without the agreement of ISCA) as this would undermine ISCA’s right and obligation under our Constitution to protect the design characteristics of their class.”

Good news. Finally WS working for sailors! Yay!!

I wonder if LP's moves are driven by Rasty or Crane or?? 

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Wess:

Consistency is the foolish hobgoblin of a lazy mind 

 

The original Kirby vs LP fight was about an established uniquely successful game whose success, in my opinion, was largely driven by the shared promotion by the builder, association and sailors. 

Funding for that promotion was built into the price of the product. Funding was assured by an agreement to use only those toys snd parts supplied by those who funded the game. 

LP decided to abandon that  successful system and showed no intentions of replacing that system with some sort of new and improved system. 

My opinion of LP and the class officers who were duped into  supporting LP has not changed.

As years have passed and LP has abandoned the  North American Market, I would love to see some entity replace the Laser with a generic toy. 

If that entity shows it deserves to have the same monopoly as LP used to enjoy, I might support the formation of a contract. 

I think it is  much more likely a financially adequate business model is Possible if the  builder can count on sales. With multiple builders, whoever happens to have the best sailors buying their toys will be the only builder supplying those wannabe sailors  and in short order ... everybody 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

I have just noticed a few significant things about the Preliminary NOR for the 2018 ISCA World Championship...

The Sunfish logo does not appear anywhere in the NOR.

The word "Sunfish" is not used anywhere in the NOR except within the URL for the registration form and the email addresses for the class office and the class president. (And I expect those could be changed too before next March?)

The ISCA logo (with the A drawn like a sail) Is prominent in on the heading of every page as part of the slogan "ISCA since 1984."

Every page is marked as "Proprietary Information to ISCA."

There is a footer on every page that says "ISCA is a one design class affiliated to World Sailing, Pan-American Sailing Federation Games" using the logos of all 4 organizations.

I often think that NORs read like they have been written by lawyers - but it looks like the lawyers really have had their influence on this one! 

It's an interesting challenge to write an NOR for a regatta while never actually naming the boat or boats that are eligible to enter the regatta.

For example, the 2018 ISCA Worlds NOR says you can provide your own "boat" and that it will be measured against "the class rules" but it doesn't say which boat's class rules. It says that the regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing but it does not include the usual notice that it will also be governed by the rules of the <insert name of boat> class association. It says you must be a member of your country's class association but, again, it doesn't say which boat's class association.

Indeed, if you were totally new to the sailing world and weren't aware of recent events, I don't see how you would possibly know what classes of boats would be allowed at this regatta. 


Hmmm. 
 

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19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's an interesting challenge to write an NOR for a regatta while never actually naming the boat or boats that are eligible to enter the regatta.

For example, the 2018 ISCA Worlds NOR says you can provide your own "boat" and that it will be measured against "the class rules" but it doesn't say which boat's class rules. It says that the regatta will be governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing but it does not include the usual notice that it will also be governed by the rules of the <insert name of boat> class association. It says you must be a member of your country's class association but, again, it doesn't say which boat's class association.

Indeed, if you were totally new to the sailing world and weren't aware of recent events, I don't see how you would possibly know what classes of boats would be allowed at this regatta. 


Hmmm. 
 

Confusion is unlikely. It's not an open event. Each country's Class Association determines how that country selects competitors, so anyone that earns an invitation is already a class member and has sailed some sort of qualifying event.

The only real issue a byob Worlds presents is if there's enough good hills and spars available for charter from dealers and individuals to supply foreign competitors.

motel space might be a bit limited. Great sailing location if they're racing in the ocean.

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This appeared the other day on the ISCO website in response to the ISCA president's letter.  I'm not sure if it got notice here.  I'm real interested to see how they respond to WS.  Also, it seems the $1,000,000 in support has now become $500,000.

https://sunfishclass.net/news/

November 18th, 2017

Dear Sunfish Sailors – We have seen the recent letter from the ISCA President and several posts and wanted to clarify several misperceptions:

- This is an Intellectual Property (IP) issue and an IP issue only.

- LP is the sole builder and owner of the Sunfish IP (marks & logos) worldwide.  They are registered and protected at a significant cost.

- Previous IP licenses had lapsed so we offered to license our IP rights to ISCA for free for 15 years! And to further support the class with $500,000 in sponsorship over the next 5 years.

- After going back and forth for two years and much to our dismay, the ISCA President made the choice to not sign the agreement and to use ISCA resources to fight our IP ownership. We don't believe that ISCA should be getting into fights over IP and should stick to promoting the class and events for their members.   

- When ISCA would not sign the agreement, we had no choice but to protect our IP and look to a new future for the Sunfish Class on a Worldwide basis with ISCO.

- As the sole builder and IP owner, we are committed to growing the Sunfish Class on Worldwide basis and working with sailors to make that happen.

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13 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Confusion is unlikely. It's not an open event. Each country's Class Association determines how that country selects competitors, so anyone that earns an invitation is already a class member and has sailed some sort of qualifying event.

The only real issue a byob Worlds presents is if there's enough good hills and spars available for charter from dealers and individuals to supply foreign competitors.

motel space might be a bit limited. Great sailing location if they're racing in the ocean.

Good point RK. In reality, nobody is likely to be confused and accidentally show up with a Laser or Finn.

Will all Sunfish regatta NORs now have to be written without including the "S" word, I wonder?

I agree with your comments on the location. One of the best dinghy sailing locations on the east coast. And an interesting area for spouses/partners to explore.

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43 minutes ago, tillerman said:



Will all Sunfish regatta NORs now have to be written without including the "S" word, I wonder?
 

 Probably similar to brand name use for auto repair garages. You can't call your shop Tillerman's VW  

You can use Tillerman's German Car Garage with a tagline like "servicing Volkswagen automobiles"

 

 

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58 minutes ago, torrid said:

This appeared the other day on the ISCO website in response to the ISCA president's letter.  I'm not sure if it got notice here.  I'm real interested to see how they respond to WS.  Also, it seems the $1,000,000 in support has now become $500,000.

https://sunfishclass.net/news/

November 18th, 2017

Dear Sunfish Sailors – We have seen the recent letter from the ISCA President and several posts and wanted to clarify several misperceptions:

- This is an Intellectual Property (IP) issue and an IP issue only.

- LP is the sole builder and owner of the Sunfish IP (marks & logos) worldwide.  They are registered and protected at a significant cost.

- Previous IP licenses had lapsed so we offered to license our IP rights to ISCA for free for 15 years! And to further support the class with $500,000 in sponsorship over the next 5 years.

- After going back and forth for two years and much to our dismay, the ISCA President made the choice to not sign the agreement and to use ISCA resources to fight our IP ownership. We don't believe that ISCA should be getting into fights over IP and should stick to promoting the class and events for their members.   

- When ISCA would not sign the agreement, we had no choice but to protect our IP and look to a new future for the Sunfish Class on a Worldwide basis with ISCO.

- As the sole builder and IP owner, we are committed to growing the Sunfish Class on Worldwide basis and working with sailors to make that happen.

Well, that's a load of horseshit. The ISCA President said in his letter (and I was told by several Sunfish insiders) that the Class had no problem renewing the previous IP agreement. The issue was that LP was now demanding ISCA's IP be turned over to them. That is not acceptable. Further, the rule change permitting outside sources for parts was purely in response to LP not supplying parts. If LP supplied parts, that rule change wouldn't have happened. If they decide to start supplying parts in the future, the rule will be rescinded.

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2 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

How about the Bumfish?

 

bumfish.jpg

as long as it's goatse-worthy

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3 hours ago, RKoch said:

The issue was that LP was now demanding ISCA's IP be turned over to them.

One imagines that LP are claiming that any IP with the Sunfish name on needs to be theirs. 

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53 minutes ago, JimC said:

One imagines that LP are claiming that any IP with the Sunfish name on needs to be theirs. 

They're demanding ISCA's initials be turned over also. 

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Either way it seems pretty unreasonable from our POV. Change my sentence to "any IP with a Sunfish connection" if you like.

 

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6 minutes ago, JimC said:

Either way it seems pretty unreasonable from our POV. Change my sentence to "any IP with a Sunfish connection" if you like.

 

I'm not taking sides, but if the dispute is only about the ownership of 4 letters one of which happens to be 'S' it does seem incredible to me that reasonable grown-ups can't reach some sensible compromise that would satisfy everyone concerned. 

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:

Looks like ISCA has the support of World Sailing...

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017

In a letter to the President of ISCA, the CEO of World Sailing says

“World Sailing cannot accept a rival international class association being created without the consent of the current class.  Doing so fundamentally undermines the Class’s membership of World Sailing and the purpose of World Sailing Classes.  In particular, ISCA has an obligation under the World Sailing Constitution to (emphasis added):

“… be responsible for implementing the objects and decision of the Federation affecting their classes and for protecting the design characteristics of their class” [Art. 8].

It is almost inconceivable that World Sailing could admit ISCO to World Sailing Class membership (without the agreement of ISCA) as this would undermine ISCA’s right and obligation under our Constitution to protect the design characteristics of their class.”

Importantly, WS has ahem "offered to mediate the dispute"

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On November 15, 2017 at 1:09 PM, IPLore said:

 

Both sides will have signed a contract with WS and the best chance of this dispute being mediated and resolved is if WS preserves its position as a neutral governing body that the Class and the builder can air their grievances with.

 

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On November 10, 2017 at 6:09 PM, IPLore said:

 

1. The relationship that the Class Association has with the Technical Division of World Sailing is going to be very important, alongside the legal agreement that the ISCA and WS signed when ISCA became an international class.

 If LP crosses a line and WS decides to support the Class then  WS and the Class Association combined have a lot of levers to pull.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, RKoch said:

Well, that's a load of horseshit. The ISCA President said in his letter (and I was told by several Sunfish insiders) that the Class had no problem renewing the previous IP agreement. The issue was that LP was now demanding ISCA's IP be turned over to them. That is not acceptable. Further, the rule change permitting outside sources for parts was purely in response to LP not supplying parts. If LP supplied parts, that rule change wouldn't have happened. If they decide to start supplying parts in the future, the rule will be rescinded.

RK........If someone offers $750,000 for the property, don't counter by saying "I couldn't take a penny less than $600,000"

I doubt it was originally only about the Sunfish IP, but if it is now on,y about the Sunfish IP, then this will be easy to settle. 

Its called allowing them a graceful way out.

After all, at the end of the day you want to have a builder and have the best possible relationship that you can with that builder. 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I'm not taking sides, but if the dispute is only about the ownership of 4 letters one of which happens to be 'S' it does seem incredible to me that reasonable grown-ups can't reach some sensible compromise that would satisfy everyone concerned. 

Sunf?

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I suppose LP might have a problem stopping people from calling this fish by its name 

the sailors could simply  call their boat, "The craft that is named after the sunfish. "

 

IMG_3763.JPG

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

the sailors could simply  call their boat, "The craft that is named after the sunfish. "

 

Or take the Prince approach - 'The Sailboat Formerly Known as The Sunfish'

and the logo could be an alien symbol unpronounceable and untranslatable 

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ISCA is right in fighting a takeover of what is really their intellectual property - it is the class association that has built the value into the letters ISCA, why should they give it over to a builder? And why does the builder care about class 41 trademarks in the first place when their business is building and selling boats, not organizing events? The trademarks for building and selling boats are independent of those for organizing and running events so there has never been any conflict - until now. 

The reality can be found in the class rules by the two opposing organizations -- take a look for yourself. In the LP version of the rules they have added a paragraph which explicitly gives them the right to change the boat "provided it has no impact on the performance of the boat". This does not appear in the ISCA class rules. 

How do you measure whether a change has an impact on performance? Who decides if there is an impact on performance? How do you handle a series of changes that impact performance? 

A real class association would have a committee of sailors (class officials) and builders who would evaluate a proposed change BEFORE the change was allowed. LP wants a system where they push changes out based on their idea of what is a good change. 

Since they have such a good track record over the past decade on these things perhaps the sailors should simply trust them?

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2 hours ago, dgmckim said:

Or take the Prince approach - 'The Sailboat Formerly Known as The Sunfish'

and the logo could be an alien symbol unpronounceable and untranslatable 

Some may consider this logo appropriate: Middle Finger on Microsoft Windows 10 Fall Creators Update

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1 hour ago, CenterboardBrake said:

ISCA is right in fighting a takeover of what is really their intellectual property - it is the class association that has built the value into the letters ISCA, why should they give it over to a builder? And why does the builder care about class 41 trademarks in the first place when their business is building and selling boats, not organizing events? The trademarks for building and selling boats are independent of those for organizing and running events so there has never been any conflict - until now. 

Does ISCA own International Sunfish Class Assoc?  I don't think so.  They can own the 4 letters ISCA but they mean nothing as a brand.  As for class 41, If LP owns class 41 in their IP which they probably do but offer to license them for FREE for 15 years why should ISCA care.  Take the license and the sponsorship $$ and do what you've always done, run races.  Not sure why the ISCA Pres. would spend class money on lawyers over something they probably don't own and is not worth the fight.  At the end of the day LP could close up the whole shop and never build or sell another sunfish again. 

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4 hours ago, shroom said:

Does ISCA own International Sunfish Class Assoc?  I don't think so.  They can own the 4 letters ISCA but they mean nothing as a brand.  As for class 41, If LP owns class 41 in their IP which they probably do but offer to license them for FREE for 15 years why should ISCA care.  Take the license and the sponsorship $$ and do what you've always done, run races.  Not sure why the ISCA Pres. would spend class money on lawyers over something they probably don't own and is not worth the fight.  At the end of the day LP could close up the whole shop and never build or sell another sunfish again. 

If you think that is what the battle is about and that is the offer that was turned down, you win the prize for the most naive poster in SA. Well done.

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10 hours ago, shroom said:

Does ISCA own International Sunfish Class Assoc?  I don't think so.  They can own the 4 letters ISCA but they mean nothing as a brand.  As for class 41, If LP owns class 41 in their IP which they probably do but offer to license them for FREE for 15 years why should ISCA care.  Take the license and the sponsorship $$ and do what you've always done, run races.  Not sure why the ISCA Pres. would spend class money on lawyers over something they probably don't own and is not worth the fight.  At the end of the day LP could close up the whole shop and never build or sell another sunfish again. 

Hello Bill,

Welcome to SA.

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4 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Hello Bill,

Welcome to SA.

Cuze me? He canntt be bill. I am. Gant said so! 

 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

. Gant said so! 

 

Then it is pretty safe to assume you are not Bill.

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ISCA President Larry Maas recently wrote...

LP is using deception to start their own Sunfish Class, ISCO. This was done in retaliation because the ISCA World Council would not sign over our rights to the ISCA initials and the name International Sunfish Class Association in a restrictive trademark agreement to LP.

I am not Larry.

I am not Bill.

I am not Bruce.

I am not even Gantt. 

I refuse to sign over my rights to the name TIllerman to Cat Stevens.
 

 

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15 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

If you think that is what the battle is about and that is the offer that was turned down, you win the prize for the most naive poster in SA. Well done.

and you know so much?  sure

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On November 22, 2017 at 8:59 AM, tillerman said:

Bill Crane did say in the (morning) webinar last week that LP won't go after individual clubs for using the word Sunfish. But he was absolutely clear that they would sue ISCA if they thought ISCA were infringing on LP intellectual property rights.

FWIW, I am guessing that LP is on incredibly thin ice from a legal perspective.

The International Sunfish Class Association should consult their IP lawyer but I suspect that he or she will reassure them that they are perfectly free to use the word "Sunfish" wherever they like and further that they can make it clear that they are the recognized association for owners  of the Sunfish boat.....without any fear of LP having a valid  claim of trademark infringement. 

1. Acquiesence .  I have discussed this in earlier posts. Bill Crane's comment in the webcast provide further support. He would be asked to explain why it is harmful to LP for ISCA to use LPs mark but it is not harmful for clubs to use it.

2. It is an accurate description of what ISCA does and it does not compete with LP 's  use of the mark.  As long as ISCA does not sell anything that LP sells or endorse the product of a competitor , then ISCA simply uses the word Sunfish to describe an organization of Sunfish owners. The Atlanta Ferrari Drivers Club cannot use the Ferrari dancing horse logo without Ferrari's permission but if the local Ferrari owners wish to form a club and describe themselves accurately.....it is hard to prevent that.

3. The preamble of the agreement signed with World Sailing will most likely have described the parties. I would hazard a guess that the ISCA was described in the preamble and that LP or their predecessor  signed the agreement.

Ultimately, one hopes this will be resolved by WS sitting down with both parties and with the assistance of a skilled mediator, resolving the underlying issues which led to this fruitless dispute.

If both LP and ISCA saw this as an avenue to go down, then it will likely  be more productive if they both go quiet publicly during the process. 

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More in general, it appears that LP has lost sight of how to run their business. What's the business? Making and selling Sunfish (and Lasers, but we won't go there right now) at a profit. Starting a 'fight' with ISCA and paying legal fees to law firms isn't helping and in fact is hurting the business. No MBA required to understand this.

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In the wild, the sunfish is also know as the mola.

Also, I like this:
Image result for sunfish logo

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3 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

More in general, it appears that LP has lost sight of how to run their business. What's the business? Making and selling Sunfish (and Lasers, but we won't go there right now) at a profit. Starting a 'fight' with ISCA and paying legal fees to law firms isn't helping and in fact is hurting the business. No MBA required to understand this.

again, they haven't lost sight of how to run their business. Their priorities have shifted away from the general consumer/racer in favor of resorts and sailing schools. I think the fact is that it doesn't matter whether they win or lose whatever legal battle they've started. Their goal in my opinion is to force ISCA into a very expensive fight that will limit their ability to be an effective class organization.

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Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

Change the name of the game and find a new toy maker. 

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49 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

again, they haven't lost sight of how to run their business. Their priorities have shifted away from the general consumer/racer in favor of resorts and sailing schools. I think the fact is that it doesn't matter whether they win or lose whatever legal battle they've started. Their goal in my opinion is to force ISCA into a very expensive fight that will limit their ability to be an effective class organization.

For a long time, most Sunfish sales have been to resorts, Boy Scout camps, schools, etc.. That isn't a recent development.  Racers have been about 10% of new boat sales for a long time. Most recreational sales are in used boats, there's a few hundred thousand out there available for well under $1000. Generally they require a part or two to bring them up to snuff, which brings us to the parts availability question. And there is no law prohibiting recreational sailors from buying parts from whatever source they like. Only the Sunfish Class has restrictions, self-imposed to protect the one-design aspect as much as possible.

Where LP is short-sighted is that they have no experience running a Class organization, organizing and hosting regattas. They'll have.to hire people to do it, and those people won't have the experience the existing Sunfish Class volunteers do. If we take auto-racing as an example, whenever Ford, Porsche, etc decide to undertake a factory racing effort they outsource the effort to an existing experienced team, like Penske, Roush, etc. The factories don't even attempt to run an inhouse team, but send the $ to the experts to do it for them. LP is showing a lot of ignorance and arrogance in thinking they can do it. They can't even write their own Constitution and rules, and had to steal that IP from ISCA. And ISCO utterly fails in meeting any of the conditions to be a recognized WS International Class...which seems to indicate they have no intention of remaining a PanAm Games boat or holding a World Championship. Maybe that's deliberate....and their plan is to kill Sunfish racing.

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

For a long time, most Sunfish sales have been to resorts, Boy Scout camps, schools, etc.. That isn't a recent development.  Racers have been about 10% of new boat sales for a long time. Most recreational sales are in used boats, there's a few hundred thousand out there available for well under $1000. Generally they require a part or two to bring them up to snuff, which brings us to the parts availability question. And there is no law prohibiting recreational sailors from buying parts from whatever source they like. Only the Sunfish Class has restrictions, self-imposed to protect the one-design aspect as much as possible.

Where LP is short-sighted is that they have no experience running a Class organization, organizing and hosting regattas. They'll have.to hire people to do it, and those people won't have the experience the existing Sunfish Class volunteers do. If we take auto-racing as an example, whenever Ford, Porsche, etc decide to undertake a factory racing effort they outsource the effort to an existing experienced team, like Penske, Roush, etc. The factories don't even attempt to run an inhouse team, but send the $ to the experts to do it for them. LP is showing a lot of ignorance and arrogance in thinking they can do it. They can't even write their own Constitution and rules, and had to steal that IP from ISCA. And ISCO utterly fails in meeting any of the conditions to be a recognized WS International Class...which seems to indicate they have no intention of remaining a PanAm Games boat or holding a World Championship. Maybe that's deliberate....and their plan is to kill Sunfish racing.

Hmmm.

So LP is either short-sighted, ignorant, and incompetent... or they have some devilishly clever plan to kill Sunfish racing for some reason?

If it's the latter, what have Sunfish racers ever done to LP to deserve such treatment?

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