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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
CenterboardBrake

Huh? New Sunfish Class?

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35 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You really don't understand what is going on. If WS recognises ISCO, then ISCA is finished. They could not organise any major events. No worlds, pan americans etc. They might even have problems running local events Why? Because all clubs are affiliated to US Sailing and US Sailing is affiliated to WS. If ISCO wins out, the word will come down that ISCA events are unsanctioned. I believe that in the US this could lead to a grey area, but as already stated, ISCA do not have the resources to fight he type of battle they are getting engaged in. For the average sailor, nothing would really change if ISCO wins the day. Events would still go on and club sailing would still happen. ISCA might have to give up using the name, their boats with ISCA approved spares would not be eligible for Sunfish events like the worlds etc. In the end, everybody would fall in behind ISCO because there wouldn't be any alternative.

The only hope that ISCA has is that WS continues to recognise them as the class association and does not recognise ISCO. The biggest problem for ISCA is that they simply do not have the resources to fight this battle without WS behind them. LP has already shown it is prepared to throw a lot of money at legal problems like this. Do not underestimate just how far they will go. Without support from WS, ISCA is finished. WS is the whole ballgame, which is why it was so stupid to announce what they did before fully gaining the support of WS. You have no idea about how much power LP has over WS. A proper letter of support would have been very hard for LP to fight against, but they have enough to now stop that letter ever being written.

At the moment, only ISCA meets the requirement to be a recognized International Class by World Sailing. ISCO does not, and will be a year or more until they do.

If WS does throw ISCA under the bus, they most certainly can continue racing. They won't be able to use the term 'World' in World Championships is all. They can call it the Intergalactic Championships. Nothing LP or WS can do about it. .PanAm Games are hosted by PanAm Games committee. ISCA has nothing to do with organizing them other than providing technical help in regards to measurement. 

The only power LP has over ISCA is use of trademark and logo. So ISCA quit using them. LP may be able to use their money to buy a favorable decision from WS, but that's not a certainty. Even so, it doesn't prevent ISCA from organizing events for Sunfish boats under whatever rules they want. And LP risks a PR disaster. They are already guilty of theft of ISCA's IP. 

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11 minutes ago, JimC said:

The key thing ISCA have to do,  and which I don't see them doing, is to encourage their membership *not* to sign up to ISCO. If ISCO can demonstrate a membership as large as ISCAs then the game is effectively over. Nothing else really matters nearly as much.  Because if LP can demonstrate that ISCO represents more Sunfish sailors than ISCA then World sailing has little choice but to recognise them.

And LP will be doing everthing they can to inflate that membership figure. Every Sunfish sailor who says, well of course I support ISCA,  but if I sign up free to ISCO as well I also get this benefit or this freebie is ensuring LP wins. Don't be mistaken, any contact with LP about Sunfish will get you signed up as an ISCO member. I bet all the ISCA officers and volunteers that LP have on any mailing lists are already on the ISCO membership list.

ISCA has already communicated to members not to join ISCO or sign up for any other LP promoted group. That was in the Presidents letter. Apparently you didn't read it before commenting.

I doubt that many ISCA members will join ISCO. Some might. ISCO might entice some non-ISCA members to sign up with the free membership, but it's unlikely they'd show up at regattas or volunteer to help run class or they already would have done so with ISCA. LP may also fabricate phantom class members in several countries to achieve WS requirements for an International class, but again, they won't show up or volunteer. And they risk getting caught. 

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I have read

https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ISCA_President_Letter_Nov-07-17.pdf

several times and see no great emphasis on the need not to sign up to ISCO.

The other weak point for ISCA is what exactly do they do if LP make an insignificant change to the spec that pus the boats out of class. Say that Sunfish built after xx.xx.2018 aren't really Sunfish? Good luck with that.

I hope ISCA prevail. If they work their arses off and avoid getting into the legal system any further than cease and desist letters then I think there's a small chance they can. But if ILCO can claim significant uptake among Sunfish sailors they are finished. There will always be enough people who will 'compromise' that some sort of Sunfish organisation will continue. It may be a greatly inferior organisation, but most people won't care.

We had an example recently in the UK. A site owner effectively closed down a long established sailing club by making it impossible for them to operate as a proper sailing club. Within days there was a new body with a significant, if smaller membership, operating in accordance with the new conditions the developer wanted to unilaterally impose. 

 

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Every day the AERO looks , by comparison, to be more attractive. 

I miss the days when the only thing fleet's and class organizations did was try to figure out how to get more people out to play.

EVERY SECOND AND EVERY DOLLAR USED ON SOMETHING ELSE  IS WASTED. 

Simple question:

Will this effort / change/ improvement/ new rule  cause the game to be played by more people.

If the answer is yes, the question changes to, "How  do we get this done?"

If the answer is no, do not do it!!!

+++++

 

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On 11/15/2017 at 10:51 PM, ~HHN92~ said:

Letter from the ISCA President …
     As most of you know from my letter last week, LP is using deception to start their own Sunfish Class, ISCO. This was done in retaliation because the World Council would not sign over our rights to the ISCA initials and the name International Sunfish Class Association in a restrictive trademark agreement to LP. At our World Council meeting held in Brant Beach on August 30, 2017, we voted that we would not relinquish our rights to ISCA at any cost. Enough was enough.      The class is tired of being held hostage to LP.  From threatening to withhold World Championship boat shipments, unless we signed the agreement, to not being able to get class legal parts for many years, created the need for the World Council to take action.  The World Council has changed the class rules to allow ISCA, not the builder, to approve class legal parts for the boats.  These rule changes have been submitted to World Sailing, and they have assured ISCA that they are working to approve this ASAP. Unfortunately, LP has left the Class with more problems than solutions, broken promises and few choices.  It would be ideal if LP could just support the class make boats, and let us sail them.      Recently LP has notified many of you to sign an agreement with them.  We caution you … DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING from LP, Velum or ISCO! Beware; LP has many different layered companies. Although the letter stated it was signed by ISCA, it was not!  ISCA had nothing to do with the letter.  All of ISCA’s letters will originate from the Class office.     This agreement is being done to benefit LP, not one­design sailing for our Class. Once again LP offers nothing. Where is their plan for charter boats?  Since 2011 ISCA has to find a dealer to layout all of the money for the World Championship Charters.  With all of the problems over the years this has become an increasingly difficult sell to dealers. Therefore, the 2018 ISCA World Championships will be a bring your own boat Regatta. (see NOR link below)
https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/nor_2013/NOR_2018_ISCA_WORLD_CHAMPIONSHIP_Preliminary.pdf

Bolded  for JimC

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18 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Every day the AERO looks , by comparison, to be more attractive. 

I miss the days when the only thing fleet's and class organizations did was try to figure out how to get more people out to play.

EVERY SECOND AND EVERY DOLLAR USED ON SOMETHING ELSE  IS WASTED. 

Simple question:

Will this effort / change/ improvement/ new rule  cause the game to be played by more people.

If the answer is yes, the question changes to, "How  do we get this done?"

If the answer is no, do not do it!!!

+++++

 

Agree, RS could end up being the winner. As far as I'm aware, their customers are happy. At least RS isn't deliberately pissing them off.

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55 minutes ago, RKoch said:

At the moment, only ISCA meets the requirement to be a recognized International Class by World Sailing. ISCO does not, and will be a year or more until they do.

You are mistaken. This is not a new class and therefore doesn't need to go through the same things as a new class. The paperwork would take anybody competent about a week. Remember, when this really kicks off, ISCA will be taken to court to stop them using the Sunfish name, logo etc. The only organisation representing Sunfish will be the ISCO. Sunfish is already an International class and a change in class association will not change that.

1 hour ago, RKoch said:

LP may be able to use their money to buy a favorable decision from WS

LP doesn't need to spend money to influence WS. Directly or indirectly, they account for something between 30-35% of WS's total revenues. The "doomsday" scenario (highly unlikely) is that LP cancels all contracts with WS for acting against the interests of LP and the WS is screwed. How does the "doomsday" scenario play out? It is all around the Laser. If LP pulls the pin on their contract for the Laser and the olympics, I believe there is a chance that they could prevent the Laser being used. Because of the way the IOC signs off on events a disciplines, by the time that happens (maybe mid 2018) it will not be possible to substitute another class. Without the Laser, WS loses 2 events at the games with about 35% of the competitors. That would directly decrease the income received from the IOC in direct proportion. Then take off the money LP pumps into WS through the Maclaren sponsorship. Bottom line - no Laser = WS  bankrupt. Sure, this is an extreme and it is highly unlikely, but don't think for one minute LP wouldn't go nuclear. Everybody knows that so the end game will never happen. WS will cave well before that, if boxed into that corner, just like they have done before.

I remain convinced that the only hope ISCA has is for a low take up of ISCO membership and hat WS comes out speedily in their favour. Their statement will not have helped because they have broken all confidences in disclosing the contents of informal discussions. Nobody likes to be boxed into a corner by somebody disclosing off the record discussions and WS will be no different. They have also highlighted to LP where the game really is. That statement was simply dumb.

1 hour ago, RKoch said:

And LP risks a PR disaster

Now you are making me laugh. Look at what they have been doing for the last however many years. Do you really think they care. The naivety continues. 

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The name "Sunfish" certainly has value as a brand.  Many non-sailors are familiar with the boats, almost to the point that "sunfish" is a generic term for small, single-handed boats.

LP would like to expand the Sunfish brand globally, but have agreements with the ISCA (and WS) that restrict how the boat can be built and marketed.  They create this row over intellectual property, so the class severs ties to go off and do their own thing.

Is this what Nasty Rasty wanted all along?  Free of the restrictions of class racing, LP can modify the boat in ways to make it more profitable to sell to resorts and sailing schools.  The ISCO will never be viable, and it was never meant to be.  It all seems part of an evil, dastardly plan.

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

 

LP would like to expand the Sunfish brand globally, but have agreements with the ISCA (and WS) that restrict how the boat can be built and marketed.  They create this row over intellectual property, so the class severs ties to go off and do their own thing.

 

Completely incorrect.  ISCA would welcome LP marketing the Sunfish worldwide. There is no restriction or objection to them doing so. ISCA is willing to renew the previous licensing agreement with LP, and does not claim to own the Sunfish trademark or logo. What ISCA is not willing to do is turn over ISCAs IP to LP, which is their name, initials, and rules. LP is demanding they do so. 

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I don't know about the Sunfish, but all Lasers are required to be 100% in class compliance out of the factory door.  I've heard stories of builders trying to sell "recreational Lasers" that were less expensive, but not class legal to race.  I'm not talking about a Laser Vago or the like, but the Laser hull in a lesser package.

Imagine a boat that kind of looks like the Sunfish, built in a Chinese factory to a lesser quality.  Cheaply built, doesn't measusre in.  It may sell to sailing schools and resorts, but racers turn up their nose at it.  It may be difficult to call it a "Sunfish" without the class approval.

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1 minute ago, torrid said:

I don't know about the Sunfish, but all Lasers are required to be 100% in class compliance out of the factory door.  I've heard stories of builders trying to sell "recreational Lasers" that were less expensive, but not class legal to race.  I'm not talking about a Laser Vago or the like, but the Laser hull in a lesser package.

Sunfish Class rules say, in essence, however the builder sends them out the door is legal. What the Class rules go into detail on is what modifications to the boat are permitted. If a modification isn't expressly permitted, it is prohibited.

The builder could probably start building roto-molded Sunfish, and they would be legal. What the builder can't do is ban fiberglass Sunfish so everyone has to buy a new one. That rule change (like every other) has to pass the Rules Committee, who then submit it to the World Council for approval, who then submit it to WS for approval. Rules Committee and World Council are comprised of ISCA members...Sunfish sailors...plus a builder representative. Those committee and Council members have already been to general membership meetings etc of the countries they're from, and are assumed to be representing the wishes of Sunfish sailors in their countries.

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Solutions

Does anybody want to solve the "How do we preserve our game?" Question 

or

Is this just a bunch of ninnies who want to be "in charge."

The only real answer for preserving the game is to remove the opportunity for other parties to control the supply of toys. 

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos. 

 

Either find an interested entrepreneur or finance new builders. 

Or

move on with life and find a new game to play 

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Solutions

Does anybody want to solve the "How do we preserve our game?" Question 

or

Is this just a bunch of ninnies who want to be "in charge."

The only real answer for preserving the game is to remove the opportunity for other parties to control the supply of toys. 

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos. 

 

Either find an interested entrepreneur or finance new builders. 

Or

move on with life and find a new game to play 

That might just be what ISCA does if they don't prevail. It's a viable and enthusiastic organization. They could just step into another boat. 

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53 minutes ago, RKoch said:

That might just be what ISCA does if they don't prevail. It's a viable and enthusiastic organization. They could just step into another boat. 

LOL the Phantom returns...

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The current strength of the Sunfish and Laser games comes from the availability of toys. 

The huge dealer network built those fleet's and the thousands of still functional toys and occasional new boats have been preserving those games. 

Example:

(As  I understand it, there are similar stories to be told  about clubs all over North America) 

Austin Yacht club has as many as fifty sailors playing in Sunfish and Lasers on any summer Wednesday night. No toy used this summer was built after 2010. 

Also, no sailor except juniors took up sailing in those fleet's after 2010. Most have sailed in those fleets since before 2000 and a large number since before 1990. 

The games are certainly being played and compared to any other singlehanded  fleet's,  the games are vibrant. 

I am 100% certain the games would be much more vibrant if we had a stocking dealer with boats and parts and who used the local fleet as a selling tool and a market. 

Since 2010 we have had no such dealer. Currently,  there are no new laser/ Sunfish boats or parts available within 1000 miles. The games continue. 

On any given night, ten of the Lasers and Sunfish are from former group /fleet purchases. Another five are from world championship leftovers. Another few are from events where there were supplied boats. 

Unless new toys become available again the fleet absolutely will slowly and surely  die. 

If the new toys are not compatible with the old games, the new game will need many years to develop and mature to resemble that which is currently in peril. 

This old fart REALLY does not wish to attempt to start from scratch again. The masters sailors I so enjoy aren't going to buy into and learn about a new boat. 

Financially, our game is severely threatened as many of the players can barely afford the current game. They cannot buy a new toy. 

Back to Austin; many  of the players are old enough such that many  of them have insufficient incentive to invest in new toys for the old fleet and have zero interest in the purchase of a new toy for a fledgling fleet. 

New toys of a new type absolutely will not save the Austin game.  The best we could hope for with new different toys would be a new group in new boats and maybe a few of us from the old fleet's would join in. 

As I see it, the only future ( ten years out) for Lasers and Sunfish sailing comes from having a great supply of NEW toys and parts. 

It would be best for each game if a new owner who valued racing could take over the "franchise " currently controlled by LP.  ( yes! I know franchise is the wrong word. I don't have a better one )

i also believe their is a sufficient market for single handed Sunfish / Laser  racing toys such that a small company could serve that market while making money. 

The problem is the continued insistence by the class associations to allow only brand name Sunfish and Lasers. 

Whenever that that restriction is lifted, the games MAY have a chance to survive.

 

 

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On 11/18/2017 at 9:35 PM, Gouvernail said:

Solution:

Define the toys without using the trademarked and copyright controlled names and logos.

 

OK, wait, you lost me.  Sometimes on these litigation thread things get turned into a bit of trolling when you get some kook who just canntt understand basic facts.  Other than Koch's recent well intentioned (he clearly loves the class and grass roots sailing) recent blinder this thread has been pretty sane and sober.  And there is a common theme in favor of sailors, grass roots, and supporting a class which your above statement is consistent with.  But its also a huge surprise from you.  You are essentially calling for generic boats.  Generic sunfish and generic lasers.  Now don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of this.  Said so many times years and years ago in the Laser litigation thread and much to my surprise YOU were vehemently opposed. You were in love with SMOD and only SMOD.  So I am just asking... pick one side of the fence or the other.  Are you in favor of SMOD or generic boats (like Snipes for example) without trademark protection and having multiple builders.  You know where I stand but you seem to have just done the biggest flip flops ever in the history of your (well intentioned) rants. So I had to ask...

And for what its worth this is also why I am so down on BK and think he wears the blackest of all the black hats in the Laser mess. He could have done exactly what you said with the Torch.  I think he was perhaps (and still is) uniquely qualified to do it.  And think of the history of club level Laser sailing (think unofficial but rapid and overwhelming acceptance of generic parts and sails at the club level) to indicate it would have been successful if he had done it.  And consider that BK said he was going to do it and he was all about the sailors.  But instead.... :(.  Well I got a nice historic Torch T-shirt and belt...

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World Sailing Regulations:

2017RegulationsClean-%5B22923%5D.pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/2017RegulationsClean-[22923].pdf

If you scroll down to Section 1 part III (page 48), , it outlines the procedures and requirements to become a recognized Class, and requirements to maintain that status. To date, ISCA hasn't done anything to warrant removal by WS. OTOH, ISCO has met none of the necessary requirements. If WS follows their own regulations, they'll back ISCA and disallow LP's attempt to hijack the class. If WS decides to follow McLarens money, they would appear to be in violation of their own constitution. I don't think they'd want to open that Pandoras Box.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

OK, wait, you lost me.  Sometimes on these litigation thread things get turned into a bit of trolling when you get some kook who just canntt understand basic facts.  Other than Koch's recent well intentioned (he clearly loves the class and grass roots sailing) recent blinder this thread has been pretty sane and sober.  And there is a common theme in favor of sailors, grass roots, and supporting a class which your above statement is consistent with.  But its also a huge surprise from you.  You are essentially calling for generic boats.  Generic sunfish and generic lasers.  Now don't get me wrong, I am 100% in favor of this.  Said so many times years and years ago in the Laser litigation thread and much to my surprise YOU were vehemently opposed. You were in love with SMOD and only SMOD.  So I am just asking... pick one side of the fence or the other.  Are you in favor of SMOD or generic boats (like Snipes for example) without trademark protection and having multiple builders.  You know where I stand but you seem to have just done the biggest flip flops ever in the history of your (well intentioned) rants. So I had to ask...

And for what its worth this is also why I am so down on BK and think he wears the blackest of all the black hats in the Laser mess. He could have done exactly what you said with the Torch.  I think he was perhaps (and still is) uniquely qualified to do it.  And think of the history of club level Laser sailing (think unofficial but rapid and overwhelming acceptance of generic parts and sails at the club level) to indicate it would have been successful if he had done it.  And consider that BK said he was going to do it and he was all about the sailors.  But instead.... :(.  Well I got a nice historic Torch T-shirt and belt...

I think you are being a little unfair on BK

and a little naive about classes with open builders

BK was not in a position to change the Laser into an open builder class. Sure, anyone can build a Laser look alike but to start commercial production in the face of three builders with world wide trade marks, a recognized international class, a large and organized class organization and an Olympic status was a non-starter. It would also in flagrant breach of his contract with the organization formerly known as ISAF.  The Torch was a non-starter......dont say we didnt warn you.   But the T shirt is cool as hell and the belt will keep your pants up...which is more than we can say for Global Sailing's pants.

Open builders works okay in strong classes where the builders are supported by a very strong class organization. It does not work where a class needs builder support for obvious reasons.  The Snipe is an example of what? A thriving growing class with how many US builders and how many new boats being built a year? Dont get me wrong...I have seen a jibetech Snipe , it is a work of art, but they cannot spend money promoting a world wide class that others will profit from.

 

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I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

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1 minute ago, IPLore said:

I think you are being a little unfair on BK

and a little naive about classes with open builders

BK was not in a position to change the Laser into an open builder class. Sure, anyone can build a Laser look alike but to start commercial production in the face of three builders with world wide trade marks, a recognized international class, a large and organized class organization and an Olympic status was a non-starter. It would also in flagrant breach of his contract with the organization formerly known as ISAF.  The Torch was a non-starter......dont say we didnt warn you.   But the T shirt is cool as hell and the belt will keep your pants up...which is more than we can say for Global Sailing's pants.

Open builders works okay in strong classes where the builders are supported by a very strong class organization. It does not work where a class needs builder support for obvious reasons.  The Snipe is an example of what? A thriving growing class with how many US builders and how many new boats being built a year? Dont get me wrong...I have seen a jibetech Snipe , it is a work of art, but they cannot spend money promoting a world wide class that others will profit from.

 

Hey I get there are benefits to both.  I just happen to prefer the open or generic model.  Not wedded to it and have happily sailed in each type of class.  I was simply surprised by Gouv's apparent flip flop because he seemed wedded to SMOD and only SMOD and would skewer me every time I tried to talk him into the non trademarked generic Laser model.  I think I do disagree with you on BK.  He could (and still can) do exactly that by launching the Torch and the Torch class and having that class accept any boat meeting the standard which would have included Lasers.  Everything you described above is what the top what 5% of Laser sailors care about.  But is it a non-started for the 95% of club sailors... who readily adopted generic parts and sails already?  I don't think its a clear non-starter.  I do know and agree it was an (apparent) legal maneuver and pressure tactic / PR move and he was never going to actually do it and that is why I am so negative about him.  If he was truly all about the grass roots sailor he coulda walked his talk... but didn't.   But I don't want to get into a BK he said/she said argument. I was bummed but I think I can (and did) get over it, LOL.  Not exactly a big deal.  And neither is this but I do wonder why the flip flop Gouv (if I didn't misunderstand your intent).

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

Yes. Also the Aquafinn and several other copies.

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3 hours ago, bill4 said:

I don't think that is the Phantom fastyacht was talking about. There was a Sunfish knock-off at one time.

The Phantom was built by Howmar (builder of Designers Choice dinghy too). Not a splashed 'fish; longer, wider, deeper. Had one for a few years. The extra area aft improves the behavior of the boat.

 

Sailboat-Howmar-(Now-J-Point)-8b4f6070-5

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24 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

The Phantom was built by Howmar (builder of Designers Choice dinghy too). Not a splashed 'fish; longer, wider, deeper. Had one for a few years. The extra area aft improves the behavior of the boat.

 

Sailboat-Howmar-(Now-J-Point)-8b4f6070-5

Yep. Really a fine boat actually.

I circumnavigated Hilton Head in 1985 on one with a friend. We left promptly at 0600 from Sea Pines clockwise. We were back in under 9 hours. We had a big breeze come up and capsized going downwind after passing Harbourtown. Then we beat out of the northern inlet and fetched along the coast with just a few tacks early on.

Sunfish has the Cache as the original and of course it was a CT yankee like me and they sailed the first sailfish in my town...but the Phantom was a good and possibly better boat.

 

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