CenterboardBrake

Huh? New Sunfish Class?

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Oh well, out come the stupid videos. End of readable content...

it was a good run... we made it almost 6 pages

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

Oh well, out come the stupid videos. End of readable content...

Oh you poor little snowflake.

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Stay on target guys.  Farzad/LP is looting the store while we argue about the picture on the sign.

Yes, it’s the name of the game for the last 40 years, but this is our game.  And he is wrecking it for profit.

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Just some considerations:

When the Class that manages the game played in the 14 foot Alcort boats was formed many different names were used and have since been replaced by names we use today.

The Houston Colt 45s just won the World Series..... I guess Astros hasn’t killed their game 

 

Stanford’s football team was called the Indians and changedvto Cardinal in 1972

The University of Texas wouldn't let Negroes play football but they recruited black man Earl Campbell and now have many African Americans  on the team

North American Sailors Racing the 14 foot lateen rigged boats had NAYRU which changed its name to Us Sailing... shortly therereafter the Anerica’s Cup was lost 

One Design Yachtsman was the name of the popular sailing rag. It added “and Offshore.” And continued. Then it became Sailing World snd went all to hell 

The 240z was a Datsun. People still buy the numbered vehicle as a Nissan 

 

Cassius Clay? Walker Smith Jr? Lew Alcindor? Bobby Moore ? The name changes sure didn’t stop them 

( Welcome back from looking up Sugar Ray Leonard) 

Enron Field is now Minute Maid Park

Makarkey has changed his name repeatedly without losing his reputation 

Idlewild and Cape Canaveral seem to have stayed busy 

Backrub wasn’t around yet back then but you could Backrub it’s new name. 

*******

The absolute only part of the Lateen rigged 14 foot boat game that is controlled by LP is the direct result of the association’s self imposed restriction on the equipment supply. 

Guess how the Sailors could remove the control of LP over their favorite game?? 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 7:14 PM, Wess said:

@LaserPerformance - Thank you for your further responses.  I had asked about supply and acknowledge your comment that LP has resolved this. I further acknowledge your important additional comment about going forward commitments to supply in drafted contracts.  But might I dig into this a bit further?  And in so doing let me note that in Annapolis I have never had an issue getting needed parts for any of my LP products, but many others in other geographies indicate they have had supply issue...

  * Are you saying LP supply issues around both Laser and Sunfish are fully resolved as of this date?

One of the posters on this board is quite passionate about Laser and single handed dinghy sailing especially in his home state of Texas and specifically near Austin where there are active Laser and Sunfish fleets that he has done much for...  Please excuse a very specific and direct question but...

* Where can I find Sunfish and Laser parts, sails, and boats in the vicinity of Austin Texas, USA?

I realize that is likely a far more specific and detailed question than you might have expected or be able to immediately answer, but providing a response to this would significantly enhance your credibility around the LP comment that supply issue "are resolved."

Thank you for your continued engagement.

Dear Wess,

The LaserPerformance dealer in Austin, Texas, does not inventory Sunfish parts, they can order them for you. We do have two dealers who inventory Sunfish parts, or have Sunfish parts on order. One is outside of Houston, (KO Sailing in Seabrook, Texas) and the other is in Heath, Texas, (Vela Sailing Supply). Your alternative is to order directly from LaserPerformance and we will ship parts directly to you.

LP has resolved most of its supply issues in regards to foils, but we are still in the process of filling back orders. We have plenty of recreational sails in inventory and are working on the race sails – so we will have a good quantity on hand shortly.

We understand the frustration you have with parts supply. We have worked very hard to get back on track. At this point we are in a position to confirm that all outstanding orders from our dealers are subject to a delivery date. Further we can guarantee supply of boats and parts with pre-orders with lead times between 60 and 90 days. You should contact us directly for all such orders for terms and conditions of sale.

It is important to note that these changes in our supply chain have included the rationalization of our suppliers to improve quality and to increase available volume in order not to face the same supply constraints as experienced in the past.

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3 hours ago, LaserPerformance said:

Dear Wess,

The LaserPerformance dealer in Austin, Texas, does not inventory Sunfish parts, they can order them for you. We do have two dealers who inventory Sunfish parts, or have Sunfish parts on order. One is outside of Houston, (KO Sailing in Seabrook, Texas) and the other is in Heath, Texas, (Vela Sailing Supply). Your alternative is to order directly from LaserPerformance and we will ship parts directly to you.

LP has resolved most of its supply issues in regards to foils, but we are still in the process of filling back orders. We have plenty of recreational sails in inventory and are working on the race sails – so we will have a good quantity on hand shortly.

We understand the frustration you have with parts supply. We have worked very hard to get back on track. At this point we are in a position to confirm that all outstanding orders from our dealers are subject to a delivery date. Further we can guarantee supply of boats and parts with pre-orders with lead times between 60 and 90 days. You should contact us directly for all such orders for terms and conditions of sale.

It is important to note that these changes in our supply chain have included the rationalization of our suppliers to improve quality and to increase available volume in order not to face the same supply constraints as experienced in the past.

So, I cannot go down to my local dealer and purchase a boat off the showroom floor, I have to order one and wait 60-90 days. Please respond to this question.

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19 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

So, I cannot go down to my local dealer and purchase a boat off the showroom floor, I have to order one and wait 60-90 days. Please respond to this question.

The local dealer in Austin has four Sunfish on order. Expected delivery to Austin, Texas, is late January.

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Commercial posts only allowed for advertisers, LP.  Thanks for playing by the rules and let us know when you want a rate sheet.

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3 hours ago, LaserPerformance said:

Dear Wess,

The LaserPerformance dealer in Austin, Texas, does not inventory Sunfish parts, they can order them for you. We do have two dealers who inventory Sunfish parts, or have Sunfish parts on order. One is outside of Houston, (KO Sailing in Seabrook, Texas) and the other is in Heath, Texas, (Vela Sailing Supply). Your alternative is to order directly from LaserPerformance and we will ship parts directly to you.

LP has resolved most of its supply issues in regards to foils, but we are still in the process of filling back orders. We have plenty of recreational sails in inventory and are working on the race sails – so we will have a good quantity on hand shortly.

We understand the frustration you have with parts supply. We have worked very hard to get back on track. At this point we are in a position to confirm that all outstanding orders from our dealers are subject to a delivery date. Further we can guarantee supply of boats and parts with pre-orders with lead times between 60 and 90 days. You should contact us directly for all such orders for terms and conditions of sale.

It is important to note that these changes in our supply chain have included the rationalization of our suppliers to improve quality and to increase available volume in order not to face the same supply constraints as experienced in the past.

A start but I can't help but notice you didn't respond with regards to Laser. Can you please...

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

A start but I can't help but notice you didn't respond with regards to Laser. Can you please...

Dear Wess, the situation with Laser boats, spares and parts is the same as that of Sunfish. We will provide the same guarantee.

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27 minutes ago, LaserPerformance said:

Dear Wess, the situation with Laser boats, spares and parts is the same as that of Sunfish. We will provide the same guarantee.

Fair enough.  I suspect there may be some follow up especially from @Gouvernail.  This may be a rowdy bunch - he especially - and we don't always or even often agree but he has done tons for small boat dinghy sailing down there (and more broadly).  They need boats and parts to keep fleets sailing.  So I suspect he may want to follow-up your post with the reality on the ground from an LP customer perspective. 

Or he may want to rant... it is SA afterall!

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4 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

So, I cannot go down to my local dealer and purchase a boat off the showroom floor, I have to order one and wait 60-90 days. Please respond to this question.

 

4 hours ago, LaserPerformance said:

The local dealer in Austin has four Sunfish on order. Expected delivery to Austin, Texas, is late January.

I am in Florida.

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@LaserPerformance

Customers do not wish to wait two or three months for replacement parts. People  who want to play in May certainly do not wish to wait for August delivery.  Certainly competitors will see this market and consider jumping in. 

The people who like to play on sailing toys will certainly gravitate to toys that are available for immediate purchase.

For the last fifty years, those who have wished to play on small dinghies have walked into stores to look at merchandise  or ordered from catalog suppliers who shipped that same day. 

Sunfish, Laser, and Hobie dealers virtually all have kept boats on hand and supplies of every sail, fitting, line, spar, blade. They have stocked books about the boats, bumper stickers, and even logo bearing clothing. Most dealers also have stocked extra goodies and upgrades like gear boxes, dollies, roof racks, covers, gelcoats, life jackets, foul weather gear, hiking pants, hats, wind indicators, compasses, sailing watches, tell tales, .... and on and on. Dealers count on sales of impulse buy items to pay their overhead. The franchise for selling  official gear for Lasers, Sunfish, and Hobies has been a guaranteed cash cow dealer business survival tool for decades. 

Companies like Amazon and their competitors are all delivering within a day or two. 

LP abandoned its dealers years ago and now is “guaranteeing” delivery fall deliveries for summer orders. 

Good luck with your when we get around to it if we feel like it for a higher price than our competitors business model. 

It shall be interesting to see if anyone decides to supply the Dinghy sailing market you abandoned. 

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LP, how do you explain the company's complete inability to supply boats and parts within a reasonable time frame?

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@LaserPerformance did the boats or the parts/supplies or both require the 60-90 day lead time? and is this just 'as of now' until you're all caught up with your backlog? or is this a standing policy

 

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The replies are so robotic, either corporate BS or a troll from a non-English speaking country. Do they not know that there are dealers and customers all over the US, not just the Houston area?

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24 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

The replies are so robotic, either corporate BS or a troll from a non-English speaking country. Do they not know that there are dealers and customers all over the US, not just the Houston area?

someone had asked about Austin specifically so they were answering to that particular region

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Well, at least we've learned that if you live near Houston you might be able to buy a Sunfish or parts in about 2 months or so. Maybe that McLaren money would be better spent improving distribution rather than starting an unnecessary rival Class organization. 

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@LaserPerformance thanks for your responses so far!

Is the supply chain getting sorted out in the next 30-90d so after that point boats and parts will be generally in stock and shipping promptly? Or is this going to be "the new normal" for your channel?

(I do understand this is far from trivial. Still, it's a key part of a viable class and market...)

 

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7 hours ago, dgmckim said:

someone had asked about Austin specifically so they were answering to that particular region

I understand, but they have to be cognizant that there are other areas of the US that need to have service. Still, the answers are robotic.

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Having boats available in the showroom helps a lot with selling them. For instance, APS (Annapolis) used to have a few Lasers and Sunfishes sitting on a rack in their lot. Just looking at them made me salivate, and I might have bought one with some persuasion (and a full wallet). But the last few years, I haven't seen any LP boats on their lot while I was there. Did LP miss taking salesmanship 101?

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:49 PM, LaserPerformance said:

Had the President of ISCA provided you with the complete document you would understand World Sailing's position in regard to the relationship between LP and ISCA. We suggest you request a full copy of the letter from Larry Mass, the President of ISCA.

Why don't you post it here?  Clearly you have a copy.

 

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I see that ISCO are reviving the two day distance sail and camp event on the Connecticut River. Apparently they really do plan to run some regattas.

Just posted on the Sunfish page on Facebook.

25075060_1722448487829718_72943487751978
 

Quote

Rig your Sunfish, pack your sleeping bags, and grab a friend!! We are excited to announce the Sunfish Adventure Raid!! After hearing from the sailors, ISCO has revived the format of the Sunfish Adventure Classic as their first regatta in what is to become an annual roaming event for the Sunfish fleet to take any shore. On the weekend of June 2nd, join the sponsors, LaserPerformance and Maclaren, in Hartford for a two-day distance sail down the Connecticut River to Essex. Saturday night will be capped off with a regatta campout in Hurd State Park with an event barbeque provided by LaserPerformance and Sunday after racing, awards and a post-race party for sailors and friends! Stay tuned for more information and registration!!

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

I see that ISCO are reviving the two day distance sail and camp event on the Connecticut River. Apparently they really do plan to run some regattas.

Just posted on the Sunfish page on Facebook.

25075060_1722448487829718_72943487751978
 

 

That would sound like a fun event.  However I would not participate on principle, not wanting to support a #fakeclass.

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

That would sound like a fun event.  However I would not participate on principle, not wanting to support a #fakeclass.


I understand. But I suspect that ISCO is aiming this event at the vast majority of Sunfish sailors who are not part of the ISCA racing scene. Offering an adventure like this to recreational sailors is a smart move.

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1 hour ago, Firefly-DC said:

you could do this one instead. already established and plenty of sunfish

https://www.facebook.com/ConnecticutRiverDinghyDistanceRace/

Indeed you could.  I believe that the one day Connecticut River Dinghy Distance Race was originally conceived and promoted here on Dinghy Anarchy as a a "resurrection" of the old Sunfish classic in a different format - a one day race for multiple dinghy classics on part of the course of the old two day distance race. 

I believe the one day race is normally held in May so the events won't clash. There is talk in the local RS Aero Class about some of us entering the Connecticut River Dinghy Distance Race in 2018.

For the record, the 2017 Connecticut River Dinghy Distance Race event was blown out. In 2016 there were only three Sunfish entered. Two failed to finish in the time limit but the other one, sailed my Marta Chlus, did win Portsmouth Division 2. Sounds as if the ISCA sailors in New England don't have a lot of interest in this regatta - or maybe it clashed with one of their other regattas in 2016.

 

 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

 

It can be a little chilly in early may in New England in a river fed by mountain snow runoff. for that reason the June date might be more popular.

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32 minutes ago, Firefly-DC said:

It can be a little chilly in early may in New England in a river fed by mountain snow runoff. for that reason the June date might be more popular.

After racing Lasers or RS Aeros all winter in New England, a cruise down the Connecticut River in May will feel positively balmy.

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This just posted on the new Sunfish class (ISCO) website...
 

Quote

 

December 13th, 2017

LaserPerformance has invited ISCA to attend a “Town Hall” meeting to be moderated by World Sailing on January 8th, 2018 in New York City.  World Sailing has kindly agreed to participate.

As a “Town Hall” meeting, LaserPerformance is opening the invitation to any and all Sunfish stakeholders who wish to attend and participate. LaserPerformance’s wish is to be transparent and inclusive in all discussions with ISCA, World Sailing, all Class members, and all Sunfish sailors.

LaserPerformance would like any comments, concerns, and questions to be aired in an open floor. Therefore, LaserPerformance asks questions or issues to please be summited via the ISCO website (www.sunfishclass.global) in advance to ensure everything is brought out for discussion. However, any questions or issues raised during the session will naturally be addressed.

LaserPerformance will be providing more information on the venue in New York City and other details in the week to come. For all those not able to physically attend, LaserPerformance will be providing an alternative through video conferencing with the ability for mutual interaction.

 

 

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Didn't check, but I suspect that to post a question on the ISCO website you have to sign up. They might be looking to boost their numbers that way. 

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Shouldn’t we be referring to the fake association as such?

Bootleg Association?

Faux Class?

Renegade Group?

Scam Club?

Internet Scam?

Unauthorized fakes?

Identity  thieves?

Charlatan Group?

Insurgents?

Quackfish Class?

Shamfish Class?

Imposters?

International hoaxers?

Builder’s double Dealers?

Swindlefish Class?

Bunko Club?

Con artists?

Snake oil Salesmen?

Pretenders?

Counterfeit scam artists?

Scoundrels?

Film flam masqueraders?

ISCO=

Imitation Scam Counterfeit   Oafs?

Indecent Shyster Corporate Operatives?

Imposter Scoundrel Counterfeit Operators?

 

   
 

 

 

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3 hours ago, RKoch said:

Didn't check, but I suspect that to post a question on the ISCO website you have to sign up. They might be looking to boost their numbers that way. 

I did check.

There is a page on the ISCO website where it appears that you can post a message or question without being a member of ISCO (although you do have to enter your email address.)

https://sunfishclass.net/follow-us/

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Just now, Satan Himself said:

Soooo confusing 

It's all very simple.

ISCA is the old Sunfish class but they are not allowed to use the word Sunfish and may not even be allowed to use the acronym ISCA. They have gazillions of members but zero dollars support from the builder. They are allowed to run World Championships but are not allowed to call them Sunfish World Championships.

ISCO is the new Sunfish class and they are allowed to use the word Sunfish. They have zero members but a gazillion dollars of support from the builders. They are not allowed by World Sailing to run World Championships but probably will anyway.

Members of ISCA have sworn a blood oath never to go within 100 miles of an ISCO regatta, or even refer to ISCO as a class. It's traditional for ISCA members to drink a shot and make a derogatory comment every time the letters I, S, C and O appear in that order anywhere on social media. Nobody knows what ISCO members think about all this because there aren't any ISCO members.

LaserPerformance is the only builder of Sunfish which is why everybody hates them.

The only thing that everyone agrees to is that Sunfish are way better than Lasers.

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11 hours ago, tillerman said:

It's all very simple.

ISCA is the old Sunfish class but they are not allowed to use the word Sunfish and may not even be allowed to use the acronym ISCA. They have gazillions of members but zero dollars support from the builder. They are allowed to run World Championships but are not allowed to call them Sunfish World Championships.

ISCO is the new Sunfish class and they are allowed to use the word Sunfish. They have zero members but a gazillion dollars of support from the builders. They are not allowed by World Sailing to run World Championships but probably will anyway.

Members of ISCA have sworn a blood oath never to go within 100 miles of an ISCO regatta, or even refer to ISCO as a class. It's traditional for ISCA members to drink a shot and make a derogatory comment every time the letters I, S, C and O appear in that order anywhere on social media. Nobody knows what ISCO members think about all this because there aren't any ISCO members.

LaserPerformance is the only builder of Sunfish which is why everybody hates them.

The only thing that everyone agrees to is that Sunfish are way better than Lasers.

TM, Santa is going to put you on his naughty list for that last line evil little bit of trolling.  It did make me laugh though!  Happy holidays!!  Wess

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18 minutes ago, torrid said:

Where was all this goodwill four or five years ago?

Given recent history, it does seem like a remarkable display of openness and transparency by LaserPerformance.

I wonder how ISCA will react? Will they accept the offer to have a public discussion with LP (moderated by World Sailing)?

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They sure opened themselves up for this one, post your questions online? Sure, why are you guys being such dicks over everything? You just go build boats and leave the sailing and running of events to those that do it. Oh yeah, your cute little FB postings are really moving the needle.

I am sure they will edit out the ones they do not want to answer.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Given recent history, it does seem like a remarkable display of openness and transparency by LaserPerformance.

I wonder how ISCA will react? Will they accept the offer to have a public discussion with LP (moderated by World Sailing)?

Yea, I was really surprised by WS seeming to align with LP on this to bring ISCA folks into discussion.  Guess I should not have been given the LP comments that ISCA was not entirely transparent with re their comments about WS's position and contents of the letter.

Gotta admit I am too lazy to dig and check... does anybody know if ISCA leadership is all volunteer or are top positions paid?

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yea, I was really surprised by WS seeming to align with LP on this to bring ISCA folks into discussion.  Guess I should not have been given the LP comments that ISCA was not entirely transparent with re their comments about WS's position and contents of the letter.

Gotta admit I am too lazy to dig and check... does anybody know if ISCA leadership is all volunteer or are top positions paid?

My understanding is that all the leadership positions are voluntary, but they do have a contract with One Design Management to provide professional class management services for both ISCA and the US Sunfish Class. ODM provide similar services to other classes including the North American Laser class.

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32 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yea, I was really surprised by WS seeming to align with LP on this to bring ISCA folks into discussion.  Guess I should not have been given the LP comments that ISCA was not entirely transparent with re their comments about WS's position and contents of the letter.

 

Sounds like ISCA are not agreeing to participate in a "town hall" style meeting with World Sailing and LaserPerformance.

Too bad. It would have been good for Sunfish sailors to be able to ask questions of all three parties in a public forum.

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-december-14-2017

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29 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Sounds like ISCA are not agreeing to participate in a "town hall" style meeting with World Sailing and LaserPerformance.

Too bad. It would have been good for Sunfish sailors to be able to ask questions of all three parties in a public forum.

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-december-14-2017

Well somebody is flat out lying.

ISCA says in their letter dated 12/14/17: "Please know that ISCA and WS have NOT agreed to a town hall style meeting."  Their emphasis; not mine.

LP says on their website dated 12/13/17: " LaserPerformance has invited ISCA to attend a “Town Hall” meeting to be moderated by World Sailing on January 8th, 2018 in New York City. World Sailing has kindly agreed to participate."

I don't know who to believe in this mess but eventually the truth of this will come out and make clear that either ISCA or LP is full of sh*t with regards these statements.  One of them clearly is and one of them clearly is not.  If I was a Sunfish sailor I would cast my support behind whomever or whatever entity is not full of sh*t.

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38 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well somebody is flat out lying.

ISCA says in their letter dated 12/14/17: "Please know that ISCA and WS have NOT agreed to a town hall style meeting."  Their emphasis; not mine.

LP says on their website dated 12/13/17: " LaserPerformance has invited ISCA to attend a “Town Hall” meeting to be moderated by World Sailing on January 8th, 2018 in New York City. World Sailing has kindly agreed to participate."

I don't know who to believe in this mess but eventually the truth of this will come out and make clear that either ISCA or LP is full of sh*t with regards these statements.  One of them clearly is and one of them clearly is not.  If I was a Sunfish sailor I would cast my support behind whomever or whatever entity is not full of sh*t.

Well yeah. There's a lot of lies, disinformation and half-truths flying around. 

But at the end of the day, this thing is not going to get resolved by figuring out who is naughty and who is nice, and choosing to "support" one side or the other.

What needs to happen is for the class and the builder to resolve their differences and to start working together to develop and grow the class, to their mutual benefit.

Maybe World Sailing will be able to knock some sense into them.

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26 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Well yeah. There's a lot of lies, disinformation and half-truths flying around. 

But at the end of the day, this thing is not going to get resolved by figuring out who is naughty and who is nice, and choosing to "support" one side or the other.

What needs to happen is for the class and the builder to resolve their differences and to start working together to develop and grow the class, to their mutual benefit.

Maybe World Sailing will be able to knock some sense into them.

Well that seems to suggest that ISCA is full of sh*t.  ;)

And what is all this nice nice stuff likes its the holiday season or something.  Hell no!  I say we break out the pitch fork and torches and @Gouvernailmodel and find and burn some orges! 

So are you thinking.... Incumbent Scumbag Charlatan Assholes??

Anyway, all funning aside, both sides seem pretty much destined for a war so all we can do it watch and await a winner and loser.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well that seems to suggest that ISCA is full of sh*t.  ;)

And what is all this nice nice stuff likes its the holiday season or something.  Hell no!  I say we break out the pitch fork and torches and @Gouvernailmodel and find and burn some orges! 

So are you thinking.... Incumbent Scumbag Charlatan Assholes??

Anyway, all funning aside, both sides seem pretty much destined for a war so all we can do it watch and await a winner and loser.

I am not taking sides in this dispute or suggesting who is telling the truth and who isn't.

I used to be a customer of LP. I'm not any more and never will be again.

I used to be a member (and officer) of the Sunfish class. I'm not any more and never will be again.

I see a lot of energy wasted here and in various social media heaping blame on one party or the other.

That may release some frustrations and anger, but in the end name-calling and blaming are not going to solve the problem.

I don't think there ever will be a winner and a loser. The only possible outcomes are win-win or lose-lose.

But if the two parties don't understand that I guess we will all have to sit back and watch them destroy the game of Sunfish racing.

 

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Open letter from ISCA President Maas:

December 14, 2017 

Dear ISCA Members and Supporters:

Yesterday, Laser Performance (LP) made an announcement that they had invited ISCA and World Sailing to attend a “town hall” meeting in New York City to discuss the issues between ISCA and LP.  Please know that ISCA and WS have NOT agreed to a town hall style meeting. ISCA informed LP on multiple occasions that the class was not interested in a town hall meeting.

ISCA did however agree to a January 8th, 2018 meeting, with World Sailing and several ISCA World Council members, in order to try to reach an agreement.  Once again, LP has chosen to announce the town hall meeting anyway.  As your President I want to make you all aware of the facts.

World Sailing has clearly stated that ISCA is the only recognized Class Association allowed to organize the World Championships.  World Sailing will not recognize ISCO.  Consequently, there is no reason for a town hall meeting.

ISCA has agreed to sign a new World Sailing agreement that will cover the availability of parts, builder responsibilities, class responsibilities and any licensing agreement that LP/Velum may want.  This is the same agreement that other World Sailing recognized International Classes have signed with their manufacturers.

ISCA agreed to meet LP in NYC on January 8th to go over this agreement and to discuss any other issues that the two parties might have. World Sailing agreed to attend the meeting to mediate this meeting only.  ISCA is more than willing to allow LP to protect what is theirs, however we are not willing to give ‘ISCA’, (which belongs to all the class members) to LP simply because they demand it.

ISCA’s goal is to continue to provide outstanding, world caliber, one-design single-handed dinghy racing, with equal equipment that is readily available to all competitors.  Rest assured, that ISCA will continue to work for all class members, to make this happen.

Laurence H. Mass

ISCA President

 

 

 

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Why is Larry Mass afraid of including other members of ISCA in the conversation?  Has he been open and honest with the class membership with regards to LP's position and ownership rights? He hasn't taken the time to respond to any of you here and he seems to be spending a lot of class money on a fight he won't win all in an effort to protect 4 letters (ISCA) because he can't use the word Sunfish from what I read.

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38 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Open letter from ISCA President Maas:

December 14, 2017 

Dear ISCA Members and Supporters:

Yesterday, Laser Performance (LP) made an announcement that they had invited ISCA and World Sailing to attend a “town hall” meeting in New York City to discuss the issues between ISCA and LP.  Please know that ISCA and WS have NOT agreed to a town hall style meeting. ISCA informed LP on multiple occasions that the class was not interested in a town hall meeting.

ISCA did however agree to a January 8th, 2018 meeting, with World Sailing and several ISCA World Council members, in order to try to reach an agreement.  Once again, LP has chosen to announce the town hall meeting anyway.  As your President I want to make you all aware of the facts.

World Sailing has clearly stated that ISCA is the only recognized Class Association allowed to organize the World Championships.  World Sailing will not recognize ISCO.  Consequently, there is no reason for a town hall meeting.

ISCA has agreed to sign a new World Sailing agreement that will cover the availability of parts, builder responsibilities, class responsibilities and any licensing agreement that LP/Velum may want.  This is the same agreement that other World Sailing recognized International Classes have signed with their manufacturers.

ISCA agreed to meet LP in NYC on January 8th to go over this agreement and to discuss any other issues that the two parties might have. World Sailing agreed to attend the meeting to mediate this meeting only.  ISCA is more than willing to allow LP to protect what is theirs, however we are not willing to give ‘ISCA’, (which belongs to all the class members) to LP simply because they demand it.

ISCA’s goal is to continue to provide outstanding, world caliber, one-design single-handed dinghy racing, with equal equipment that is readily available to all competitors.  Rest assured, that ISCA will continue to work for all class members, to make this happen.

Laurence H. Mass

ISCA President

 

 

 

Update to “Town Hall” Meeting being held by LaserPerformance in regards to the Sunfish Class:

 

It has been recently announced by ISCA President, Larry Mass, that ISCA will not accept LaserPerformance’s invitation to attend an open, inclusive and public “Town Hall” Meeting in New York on January 8th, 2018 to discuss the problems between Sunfish stakeholders and the builder.  It is the President’s desire to have a “closed-door” meeting with representation for the class limited to the President himself and to the US NSCA.  Without multiple parties in attendance for the “Town Hall” meeting, World Sailing has decided it cannot act as the moderator because it could be construed that World Sailing is choosing sides. Indeed, if ISCA chooses not to participate, there is nothing to moderate. Hence, LaserPerformance will respect World Sailing’s decision and has extended its invitation to both World Sailing and to the ISCA President to attend the “Town Hall” Meeting as a participant or an observer. LaserPerformance intends to hold the meeting regardless of ISCA President’s decision not to attend and stands by their invitation that all Class members and Sunfish sailors are invited to the “Town Hall” in an effort to ensure that all of the stakeholders’ concerns are addressed in a public forum. Per the insistence of ISCA President, LaserPerformance will be attending a “closed-door” meeting with the limited number of ISCA “exclusive” participants.  LaserPerformance continues to maintain that an open and inclusive dialogue is not just necessary for the current situation but also a pre-requisite for healthy relations at all times.  However, LaserPerformance has submitted to these requests, conditions and stipulations by ISCA President in the hope that any dialogue is better than none.

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17 hours ago, tillerman said:

It's all very simple.

ISCA is the old Sunfish class but they are not allowed to use the word Sunfish and may not even be allowed to use the acronym ISCA. They have gazillions of members but zero dollars support from the builder. They are allowed to run World Championships but are not allowed to call them Sunfish World Championships.

ISCO is the new Sunfish class and they are allowed to use the word Sunfish. They have zero members but a gazillion dollars of support from the builders. They are not allowed by World Sailing to run World Championships but probably will anyway.

Members of ISCA have sworn a blood oath never to go within 100 miles of an ISCO regatta, or even refer to ISCO as a class. It's traditional for ISCA members to drink a shot and make a derogatory comment every time the letters I, S, C and O appear in that order anywhere on social media. Nobody knows what ISCO members think about all this because there aren't any ISCO members.

LaserPerformance is the only builder of Sunfish which is why everybody hates them.

The only thing that everyone agrees to is that Sunfish are way better than Lasers.

 

LOL. I made the front page.

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/12/14/war-of-words/

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47 minutes ago, shroom said:

Why is Larry Mass afraid of including other members of ISCA in the conversation?  Has he been open and honest with the class membership with regards to LP's position and ownership rights? He hasn't taken the time to respond to any of you here and he seems to be spending a lot of class money on a fight he won't win all in an effort to protect 4 letters (ISCA) because he can't use the word Sunfish from what I read.

Are you an LP puppet?;)

I personally think it would be stupid for the ISCA to agree to a "town hall" style meeting, because LP has the ability to pack the meeting with people whereas the ISCA doesn't. You are never going to get a very representative group of Sunfish sailors together in any location other than a world championship, because it is an international class. If this was a "town hall" at a world championship, then it would be reasonable to hold it but anything else would be wrong.

As for your belief about the association being unable to use the term "Sunfish", if you have been reading this thread, you would know that it isn't clear cut. I believe that they probably can use the name, even without LP's permission.

I get seriously suspicious of people on this forum who adopt the position that those representing the class are potentially lying while LP isn't. I also get suspicious when they try to point a finger at one man, when the ISCA has a committee and until I see evidence to the contrary, I presume that Mass is simply communicating the decisions and views of the whole committee.

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3 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Are you an LP puppet?;)

I personally think it would be stupid for the ISCA to agree to a "town hall" style meeting, because LP has the ability to pack the meeting with people whereas the ISCA doesn't. You are never going to get a very representative group of Sunfish sailors together in any location other than a world championship, because it is an international class. If this was a "town hall" at a world championship, then it would be reasonable to hold it but anything else would be wrong.

As for your belief about the association being unable to use the term "Sunfish", if you have been reading this thread, you would know that it isn't clear cut. I believe that they probably can use the name, even without LP's permission.

I get seriously suspicious of people on this forum who adopt the position that those representing the class are potentially lying while LP isn't. I also get suspicious when they try to point a finger at one man, when the ISCA has a committee and until I see evidence to the contrary, I presume that Mass is simply communicating the decisions and views of the whole committee.

Well you know what happens when you ASSume anything but since ISCA hasn't responded in this forum then who knows what is being told to the Committee.  Are you an ISCA puppet?  Then maybe you can tell what is being told to the Committee.   

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

I am not taking sides in this dispute or suggesting who is telling the truth and who isn't.

I used to be a customer of LP. I'm not any more and never will be again.

I used to be a member (and officer) of the Sunfish class. I'm not any more and never will be again.

I see a lot of energy wasted here and in various social media heaping blame on one party or the other.

That may release some frustrations and anger, but in the end name-calling and blaming are not going to solve the problem.

I don't think there ever will be a winner and a loser. The only possible outcomes are win-win or lose-lose.

But if the two parties don't understand that I guess we will all have to sit back and watch them destroy the game of Sunfish racing.

 

Certainly agree the general sentiment but I would be willing to buy LP products and/or sail as a member of the Sunfish class.  "Never" is a long time Tillerman!

But certainly the principals of each organization apparently "don't understand" the concept of "win-win" or "lose-lose" as you say and seem equally determined to destroy the game of Sunfish racing. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Wess said:

Certainly agree the general sentiment but I would be willing to buy LP products and/or sail as a member of the Sunfish class.  "Never" is a long time Tillerman!

 

Never is indeed a long time. And my statement was not meant to communicate any antipathy on my part to either the builder or the class.

It was just a recognition that I have now been an RS Aero sailor for 3 years and I find that my enthusiasm for the boat, and for the people who sail it, only continues to grow.  

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1 hour ago, LaserPerformance said:

Update to “Town Hall” Meeting being held by LaserPerformance in regards to the Sunfish Class:

 

It has been recently announced by ISCA President, Larry Mass, that ISCA will not accept LaserPerformance’s invitation to attend an open, inclusive and public “Town Hall” Meeting in New York on January 8th, 2018 to discuss the problems between Sunfish stakeholders and the builder.  It is the President’s desire to have a “closed-door” meeting with representation for the class limited to the President himself and to the US NSCA.  Without multiple parties in attendance for the “Town Hall” meeting, World Sailing has decided it cannot act as the moderator because it could be construed that World Sailing is choosing sides. Indeed, if ISCA chooses not to participate, there is nothing to moderate. Hence, LaserPerformance will respect World Sailing’s decision and has extended its invitation to both World Sailing and to the ISCA President to attend the “Town Hall” Meeting as a participant or an observer. LaserPerformance intends to hold the meeting regardless of ISCA President’s decision not to attend and stands by their invitation that all Class members and Sunfish sailors are invited to the “Town Hall” in an effort to ensure that all of the stakeholders’ concerns are addressed in a public forum. Per the insistence of ISCA President, LaserPerformance will be attending a “closed-door” meeting with the limited number of ISCA “exclusive” participants.  LaserPerformance continues to maintain that an open and inclusive dialogue is not just necessary for the current situation but also a pre-requisite for healthy relations at all times.  However, LaserPerformance has submitted to these requests, conditions and stipulations by ISCA President in the hope that any dialogue is better than none.

You know, there's been a town hall meeting of sorts going on in this thread for some time, yet, you've remained silent on many key questions. If you won't answer these questions here, will you answer them at the town hall? Why should I have any faith that you'll even address the questions sailors actually care about?

@Team_GBR had asked:

I note you pick and choose which questions to answer. Why is that? Why do you fail to answer the questions the sailors actually care about? To remind you what i asked

  1. You claim that this is about IP which you own. How can that be taken seriously when you steal the IP of the ISCA and put it on your own website as if it were yours.
  2. How do you propose to stop ISCA from organising the world championships. Anybody has the right to organise events for Sunfish racing but only the ISCA has the right to organise world championships.
  3. How will you handle the lack of International recognition by World Sailing. You claim that the ISCO will run the 2018 world championships, but to do so you need to be recognised by World Sailing.
  4. How do you intend the ISCO runs if it has no officials. Who will do the work and who is administering it currently?
  5. Why do you need an agreement with an association to provide an adequate supply of spare parts.

Also, you never answered my question:

On 12/7/2017 at 12:50 PM, dgmckim said:

@LaserPerformance did the boats or the parts/supplies or both require the 60-90 day lead time? and is this just 'as of now' until you're all caught up with your backlog? or is this a standing policy

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So, we are supposed to believe the guy who has screwed the pooch on this deal over the people who have been passionately involved with promoting the class and boat for years?

I would like to hear from WS on this. It just sounds too fishy to me and something as noted above that LP could control and use against the class, I know I cannot go to New York to witness this 'town hall' meeting. Sounds like a typical political stunt to me, we see that enough in elections around here.

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Count me in the column with Tillerman..

I am the guy who organized the start up of BOTH the Laser and Sunfish fleets in Austin. 

I am one who believes the PRIMARY purpose of the class is to invite players and facilitate everyone’s  participation.

i am one who believes the builder’s primary responsibility  is to feed those who supply the labor to produce their product.

in the USA that business model has been replaced by:

it is the sole  job of  the business managers to maximize stock price and dividends. 

I don’t care if anybody ever builds another boat called a Sunfish ( or Laser)

i do hope we can find a way to continue playing with singlehanded Sailboats.

i do hope we can agree on the definition of our one design games so we can once again start purchasing new equipment.

my opinion / position hadn’t changed in years:

Both the builder’s and the classes are blocking access to the sailing  game.

we have people who want to make money and people who want to be in charge.

we need builders and classes whose primary goals are to sell as many boats as possible and get as many sailors out playing as possible. 

I hope it happens again 

 

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5 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

So, we are supposed to believe the guy who has screwed the pooch on this deal over the people who have been passionately involved with promoting the class and boat for years?

Actually I don't altogether believe either side. The ISCA press releases appear to be quoting WS very selectively, and I think they are trying to spin to their members that WS are supporting them much more vigorously than is really the case. LP are probably telling the truth when they say there is much more in the World Sailing letter than ISCA are saying, but I bet there is also stuff in there that LP don't like much either. I don't, for example, believe the statement "World Sailing will not recognise ISCO" is precisely true. If the situation came about that ISCA collapsed and represented no-one, and ISCO genuinely represented the Sunfish sailing community, I don't doubt WS would have little choice but to recognise ISCO as the Sunfish Class Association.

The most disturbing part about the whole Laser mess, to my mind, was that the majority of the Laser Assn execs appeared to be firmly on the side of LP and not telling their members the whole story. In this situation the Sunfish Assn execs may be opposed to LP, but appear equally guilty of telling only half the story. I don't think its a coincidence that both the major battles in recent years involve LP, and I expect they kicked off the mess. I can see no reasonable justification for LP demanding that ISCA hand over their IP. But unless ISCA start to tell their members the whole story I will start to suspect that the argument is between the bad guys and the worse guys, not the good guys and the bad guys.

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

Actually I don't altogether believe either side. The ISCA press releases appear to be quoting WS very selectively, and I think they are trying to spin to their members that WS are supporting them much more vigorously than is really the case. LP are probably telling the truth when they say there is much more in the World Sailing letter than ISCA are saying, but I bet there is also stuff in there that LP don't like much either. I don't, for example, believe the statement "World Sailing will not recognise ISCO" is precisely true. If the situation came about that ISCA collapsed and represented no-one, and ISCO genuinely represented the Sunfish sailing community, I don't doubt WS would have little choice but to recognise ISCO as the Sunfish Class Association.

The most disturbing part about the whole Laser mess, to my mind, was that the majority of the Laser Assn execs appeared to be firmly on the side of LP and not telling their members the whole story. In this situation the Sunfish Assn execs may be opposed to LP, but appear equally guilty of telling only half the story. I don't think its a coincidence that both the major battles in recent years involve LP, and I expect they kicked off the mess. I can see no reasonable justification for LP demanding that ISCA hand over their IP. But unless ISCA start to tell their members the whole story I will start to suspect that the argument is between the bad guys and the worse guys, not the good guys and the bad guys.

Absolutely agree most everything written re Sunfish. Bad and worse is how.i am starting to see it also. Damn we need some generic classes run by volunteer grass roots club level sailors. Alas they have lives and more important things to do.

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6 hours ago, JimC said:

Actually I don't altogether believe either side. The ISCA press releases appear to be quoting WS very selectively, and I think they are trying to spin to their members that WS are supporting them much more vigorously than is really the case. LP are probably telling the truth when they say there is much more in the World Sailing letter than ISCA are saying, but I bet there is also stuff in there that LP don't like much either. I don't, for example, believe the statement "World Sailing will not recognise ISCO" is precisely true. If the situation came about that ISCA collapsed and represented no-one, and ISCO genuinely represented the Sunfish sailing community, I don't doubt WS would have little choice but to recognise ISCO as the Sunfish Class Association.

The most disturbing part about the whole Laser mess, to my mind, was that the majority of the Laser Assn execs appeared to be firmly on the side of LP and not telling their members the whole story. In this situation the Sunfish Assn execs may be opposed to LP, but appear equally guilty of telling only half the story. I don't think its a coincidence that both the major battles in recent years involve LP, and I expect they kicked off the mess. I can see no reasonable justification for LP demanding that ISCA hand over their IP. But unless ISCA start to tell their members the whole story I will start to suspect that the argument is between the bad guys and the worse guys, not the good guys and the bad guys.

It is also a matter of the point of view from either side, not necessarily the reality. I would believe ISCA is working in a realm based on past history of the class and previous builders as they understand it. Also from what we have heard they have been in communication with WS and probably have assurances that we are not aware of that they are basing their statements on. LP is coming at it as a relatively new builder that is looking to capitalize on its investment and gain more control. The way business operates these days I am siding with ISCA on this one, with the belief that they have tried to work in good faith on the partnership with the builder in the manner they always have, and that LP is trying to control the ball, bat, and the playing field for profit purposes.

Of course, if LP is successful in running ISCA into the ground then WS may eventually recognize ISCO, although their fleets may be a little thin.

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My brain jibed unexpectedly overnight and can now explain the craziness generated by LP

1. LP is in serious financial trouble https://companycheck.co.uk/company/00922893/LASERPERFORMANCE-EUROPE-LIMITED/financials

2. LP wants to get rid of its asset that has underperformed the most, which happens to be the Sunfish

3. To sell the Sunfish brand for as much as possible, they want the trade name (IP) included in 'the package'

 

Or maybe I am just slow in the head, as I am in racing

 

And yes, Jim Clark may just be the guy to take over the brand. His wife enjoys sailing as well, I have heard...

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The thing is Laser Performance do own the name Sunfish,the class sail symbol etc. AIUI the only thing they don't own is the ISCA name, and one of the mysteries is why they care. 

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25 minutes ago, JimC said:

The thing is Laser Performance do own the name Sunfish,the class sail symbol etc. AIUI the only thing they don't own is the ISCA name, and one of the mysteries is why they care. 

I suspect LP's demand for the rights to the ISCA acronym is purely a negotiating tactic.

It is not uncommon in negotiations for one side to create a fake sticking point, a demand that they pretend is valuable to them, but it really isn't. They push strongly for this demand even though they have every intention of finally conceding it. In the process they hope the other side will give up something that really is valuable to them in exchange for dropping the "fake" demand.

So the question in my mind is what are LP really after?

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2 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

My brain jibed unexpectedly overnight and can now explain the craziness generated by LP

1. LP is in serious financial trouble https://companycheck.co.uk/company/00922893/LASERPERFORMANCE-EUROPE-LIMITED/financials

You must be some financial guru with true telepathic powers if you can tell that LP is in serious financial trouble just from those headline figures. Rather than a finance lesson on here, you simply cannot take those 4 measures and conclude a company is in serious financial trouble from them, because all they are is headline figures. In the case of LP, you need to understand how it fits into a very complex group of companies controlled by Rastegar. For instance, LP doesn't own any trademarks. They are all held in a seperate holding company (IIRC it's called Velos). 

Without seeing the financials of the whole group, you cannot tell what is going on. You need to remember he had his businesses structured in such a way that MaClaren  USA could go bankrupt without effecting the ability of Maclaren to sell prams in the USA. 

Do not assume that what might seem like poor financial performance in one company means that the whole group is in "serious financial trouble". 

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

So the question in my mind is what are LP really after?

Control, so they can ensure that the class association (and WS) cannot dictate how the run their business through what parts and materials they use.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Control, so they can ensure that the class association (and WS) cannot dictate how the run their business through what parts and materials they use.

False. ISCA rules do not dictate to builder how to build Sunfish. LP can build roto-molded Sunfish with PVC spars and visqueen sails, and it will automatically be legal to race. Where the class holds power is not banning fg/alum/Dacron boats, meaning the builder can't force the entire class to buy new boats if they were to switch to inferior materials.

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

False. ISCA rules do not dictate to builder how to build Sunfish. LP can build roto-molded Sunfish with PVC spars and visqueen sails, and it will automatically be legal to race. Where the class holds power is not banning fg/alum/Dacron boats, meaning the builder can't force the entire class to buy new boats if they were to switch to inferior materials.

Wrong! The class rules says that for racing, the sunfish needs to be built in accordance with the "Manufacturing Specifications". LP can build the Sunfish however it likes and call it a Sunfish, but that will not make it legal for class racing under the international class rules approved by WS. Roto-molded is not part of the manufacturing specification and neither are PVC for spars or visqueen for sails. The only way that LP can change that is with approval from the class association and WS. WS will only agree to a change if the class association agrees. 

This is all pretty standard WS and international one design class stuff. The class association is the real gatekeeper of the one design nature of the boats. At the moment, LP has no leverage over ISCA. Once they own the name, even if they license it back, they have leverage. If they own the name ISCA and the association does something that the association says is to protect the one design nature (say refusing to allow roto-molded boats) but LP says is detrimental to the running of the business, they will go straight to court to stop the members of ISCA from using an LP owned asset to harm the LP business.

Do you really think that LP would sit back and allow the committee and members of the ISCA to do whatever they want with an LP owned asset?

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53 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Wrong! The class rules says that for racing, the sunfish needs to be built in accordance with the "Manufacturing Specifications". LP can build the Sunfish however it likes and call it a Sunfish, but that will not make it legal for class racing under the international class rules approved by WS. Roto-molded is not part of the manufacturing specification and neither are PVC for spars or visqueen for sails. The only way that LP can change that is with approval from the class association and WS. WS will only agree to a change if the class association agrees. 

This is all pretty standard WS and international one design class stuff. The class association is the real gatekeeper of the one design nature of the boats. At the moment, LP has no leverage over ISCA. Once they own the name, even if they license it back, they have leverage. If they own the name ISCA and the association does something that the association says is to protect the one design nature (say refusing to allow roto-molded boats) but LP says is detrimental to the running of the business, they will go straight to court to stop the members of ISCA from using an LP owned asset to harm the LP business.

Do you really think that LP would sit back and allow the committee and members of the ISCA to do whatever they want with an LP owned asset?

That's simply an incorrect fabrication. I spent 2 years on the World Council. The rules say the boat must be built by the builder, who sets their specifications.  That's it.  Nothing about specifications or telling the builder how to build it or run their company. Find the rule that specifies material, laminate schedule, or weight. It's not there. LP can build a 90 lb carbon hull, or a 160 lb roto-molded hull...it's up to them. You're absolutely 100% full of bullshit.

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You must be some financial guru with true telepathic powers if you can tell that LP is in serious financial trouble just from those headline figures. Rather than a finance lesson on here, you simply cannot take those 4 measures and conclude a company is in serious financial trouble from them, because all they are is headline figures. In the case of LP, you need to understand how it fits into a very complex group of companies controlled by Rastegar. For instance, LP doesn't own any trademarks. They are all held in a seperate holding company (IIRC it's called Velos). 

Without seeing the financials of the whole group, you cannot tell what is going on. You need to remember he had his businesses structured in such a way that MaClaren  USA could go bankrupt without effecting the ability of Maclaren to sell prams in the USA. 

Do not assume that what might seem like poor financial performance in one company means that the whole group is in "serious financial trouble". 

Not a financial guru, but we are writing about LP, not the Rastegar emporium. And those numbers (outdated) do look bad. Moreover, just about anybody that has paid attention is aware that LP has been slow (trying to be nice here) to pay its bills, which in turn, has led to the unavailability of crucial legal parts (sails come to mind). And hulls are only delivered when paid for. Does that sound like a  business with oodles of money in the bank?

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11 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Whatever the case it appears there will be 2 meetings on January 8th.  Nothing much to discuss until that meeting is done. 

 

But don’t let that stop anyone from forging ahead. 

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Took me a few hours to read this thread.  Whew.  Anyway, two facts readers will be interested in. The “15 year” license LP offered ISCA was cancellable 9 months after signing by LP for any or no reason.  So ISCA could basically sign away everything, including their name, and LP could cancel the agreement in 9 months.  So in 9 months LP owns the class association name and retracts the license.  There was also no guarantee of any type that LP would have to pay 1 cent of the support agreement.  

Secondly, the letter from WS was released by ISCA in its entirety.  It isn’t longer, as LP knows.  Just more BS from LP.  

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5 hours ago, Flyingfish said:

Secondly, the letter from WS was released by ISCA in its entirety.  It isn’t longer, as LP knows.  Just more BS from LP.  

Was it? Where?

As far as I know all we have seen is this document

 https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017 

which specifically says " Below are several quotes from the letter"

That is most definitely NOT in its entirety.

The information you have posted about contract length an cancellation seems feasible, but again has not been posted on the Sunfish web site. If you are from the Sunfish CA, and wish to avoid the suspicion that you are being as economical with the truth as LP are, then you need to either post things in full or else explain what communications have been redacted and give good reasons why. 

You appear to have joined just to make that post, provided nothing to identify you or anything else. Why should we not assume that you are just a fantasist making up all you have said? Goodness knows the world is full of them.

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