CenterboardBrake

Huh? New Sunfish Class?

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1 hour ago, Wavedancer II said:

The thread has gone off topic once again. Maybe we should all chill and wait for the 'Town Hall Mtg' next year and see what will develop.

We're not really off topic, even if we are talking about RS Aeros and Beemers.

The issue that's fundamental to the original discussion is whether the Sunfish class can prosper without a supply of new boats that are readily available... and affordable to potential sailors. 

Can a class survive indefinitely if the only source of boats is Craigslist junkers? Probably, but it will be a pale shadow of its former self.

Is a price $5-8k for a new boat really a major barrier to getting into sailing?  Absolutely not.  There are millions and millions of people in America who can afford to buy a new Sunfish or Laser or RS Aero. The issue is that they are "wasting" their disposable income on other stuff.

 

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Keep up the good work Gouv. 

One day the experts on this thread will understand the world has changed and for every possible new entrant the reasons will vary.

For those to whom cost is the defining factor will buy second hand and fix it up.

For those who can buy new would buy new if they could. It appears at the moment  there is no or little supply of new sunfish in the USA.

We can speculate the reason for this forever but it comes down to the current builders business operations and commercial decisions.

While the Sunfish class is locked into the arrangement with the one builder you have the situation you have today.

Many other classes are quite successful with a variety of builders and do not have to put up with this situation that you have presently.

Therefore do something about the barrier to new boats with new product made in USA or imported from  a competent builder in a low cost country

who can keep the price below that magical $5,000 figure that seems to be the price point you you recognise.

The solution is in your own hands. 

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

I didn't say no one could afford them. I said 8k is way too much for entry level sailboats. They may have purchased a new boat but that doesn't mean it's their first boat or that they are entry level sailors. Many people can afford to have more than one boat, and race more than one boat. 96 boats at a worlds is completely tangential to the point I was trying to make, which is that 8k is too a prohibitive cost for someone who might be interested in getting into sailing or club racing. And, prohibitive for younger people who these days tend not to have a huge bank account. It'd be interesting to know what the average age of an Aero sailor is? I'd bet around 40, but that's purely speculative.

Maybe we have a disagreement on what the term 'entry level' means?

My definition of "entry level" is a boat that someone can buy and sail in local club racing after taking some "learn to sail" lessons.

About 40 years ago I took some sailing lessons at Minorca Sailing, tried out a Laser on my last day there, went back to England and bought a brand new Laser from a local dealer (who had several Lasers in stock.) I joined a local sailing club and started racing. I was an "entry level" sailor.

I was in my early 30s, I had a wife and two kids, a house, a car and a job. What I paid for a new Laser then probably translates to something like $5k to $8k in 2017 dollars.  


My contention is that there are millions of people today in America who are in exactly the same position as I was 40 years ago. If they are not buying Lasers or Sunfish or RS Aeros, it's not because they couldn't afford the purchase price if they really wanted to get into sailing.

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You do not, and probably should not, buy a new boat when starting out in such a class as a Sunfish. I started with a late 1960's boat in 1988 when first getting into the class. As I progressed I upgraded from time-to-time until I was racing a relatively 'new' boat with all the latest gear and the 'new' daggerboard. During that time I was fairly competitive, more about my skill level than the boat's failings.

The class does not necessarily have to have a continuous supply of new boats at a high rate, a well taken care-of boat can last a long time, depending on the conditions and how often it is sailed. My 'new' boat is a 2008 model I bought used. As long as the boat is solid and you have good equipment that is all you need. Parts and pieces are more critical to keep things going. Allowing non-factory parts that are equal in performance can take care of that problem and the class has already addressed that. LP does not want them using the Sunfish trademarks so what is the big deal of the class allowing non-LP parts if LP does not want them?

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I think a fairly good chunk of the market for new boats that LP is missing out on here are upper-middle class families, especially those that have become clustered in the large coastal cities around the US. Families that take vacations in tropical places where the kids go rent a Sunfish for a couple days. Dad and Mom finally see their kids having a great time not staring at a screen. And on a boat that kinda seems safer than kiteboarding or a beach cat. Dad goes back to hotel and does some research online, finds out there are a lot of youth programs with Sunfish, and an active friendly class association with races all over the place (and of course dad had a lot of fun to, but mom would roll her eyes if he wanted to buy himself one). It ticks the all-important youth sports activities box with a whiff of upper-class about it that soccer doesn't have. And it seems exciting and kinda edgy, but a bit safer than, say, rock climbing. So they get back to the states, and he's not going to scrounge some second-hand boat from Craigslist. Being Super-Dad, he's going to head to the local dealer and look into this, and he's probably inclined to make a 2-boat impulse purchase on the spot. Except, well... there's that waiting period. And being disappointed by LP, he's going to use that time to start looking at other brands.

This may sound like a great big hypothetical, but I have contact with A LOT of parents like this. And 16k may seem like a lot to throw down on your kids all at once, but I will tell you, in this day and age, above a certain income level, you are expected to drop that kind of change on your kids to show that you are a good parent who cares about their growth and well-being.

But this is a window that's closing for LP. At some point, the presence of the Sunfish is going to fade enough that they are just no longer, by virtue of sheer numbers, going to be at the right place and time for people to consider them.

And the sad thing for the racers is that these families are a great source for 5 - 10 year old boats that can be picked up cheap and used for racing once the kid goes off to college.

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6 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

You do not, and probably should not, buy a new boat when starting out in such a class as a Sunfish. I started with a late 1960's boat in 1988

Times have changed. Like it or not these days secondhand boats are for people who already know what they are about, sailing families, all the rest of it, or have good support - already club members and the like. The big advantage of a new boat for the novice purchaser is that you know it will work. If you don't already know about boats how do you tell the difference between the two thousand dollar reasonable deal that's a bargain and doesn't need much TLC, and the two thousand dollar ridiculously overpriced piece of junk that will need double that spending on it? There are an awful lot of people who can find another 5,000 dollars a lot more easily than they can find the time and motivation fora secondhand boat. 

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

Times have changed. Like it or not these days secondhand boats are for people who already know what they are about, sailing families, all the rest of it, or have good support - already club members and the like. The big advantage of a new boat for the novice purchaser is that you know it will work. If you don't already know about boats how do you tell the difference between the two thousand dollar reasonable deal that's a bargain and doesn't need much TLC, and the two thousand dollar ridiculously overpriced piece of junk that will need double that spending on it? There are an awful lot of people who can find another 5,000 dollars a lot more easily than they can find the time and motivation fora secondhand boat. 

I think you are right. I probably bought a new Laser as my first boat because I didn't know much about sailing dinghies and how to asses what was good value and condition, and how to repair or refurbish them, and I probably didn't even want to bother with fixing up a boat. I just wanted to get a boat that would be in perfect condition and go race it.

On the other hand when I came to the US and moved to an area where the local racing scene was all about Sunfish, I did buy a second hand Sunfish to start with. I was living in a town with an active Sunfish fleet and I knew I could count on support of neighbors and friends if I couldn't figure out what to do with a less than perfect boat. As I recall, one of the local hotshots even took pity on me for buying a boat with a beat up wooden daggerboard and he gave me a wooden daggerboard in much better condition from his collection. 

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Fifteen years ago, there were over 30 Sunfish in our local fleet. Today there are only two who show up regularly and another two or three that come out sporadically. If you look at the Florida regattas on Regatta Networks, you can easily determine that there are only about 15 Florida boats that are attending regattas outside of their own local clubs. The supply chain has been seriously damaged and the builder and class organization are throwing rocks at each other.

The Aero hasn't quite reached critical mass to where I can easily find a local fleet to sail with. That, more than the $8k boat price is the sticking point. However, I have the same sticking point with buying a new Sunfish these days. And yes, there are 30 year old Sunfish that can be bought cheap. But try to find one of those $100 used plastic daggerboards. $365 from APS, $535 for an new sail and if you click on the order tab, it ships in "3 weeks or more".

Both ISCA and LP have serious problems that can only be solved when they kiss and make up!

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

Times have changed. Like it or not these days secondhand boats are for people who already know what they are about, sailing families, all the rest of it, or have good support - already club members and the like. The big advantage of a new boat for the novice purchaser is that you know it will work. If you don't already know about boats how do you tell the difference between the two thousand dollar reasonable deal that's a bargain and doesn't need much TLC, and the two thousand dollar ridiculously overpriced piece of junk that will need double that spending on it? There are an awful lot of people who can find another 5,000 dollars a lot more easily than they can find the time and motivation fora secondhand boat. 

I think anyone with some common sense can look at all the Sunfish boats that are listed for sale and see the difference in the condition of the boats. Sure, they  will not have the knowledge on the details but can see one that is beat-up vs one that looks clean. There are tons of them out there and for a starter why by new with the large investment and then if it does not work out lose a big chunk trying to sell it. Plus, you would want to have one that if you had an oops or two it would be less loss to the pocketbook than beating-up a new boat.

Plus, if you are looking to have people who are not affluent to sail a larger boat but looking to get into sailing at an affordable level a $5-6,000 investment is not it. $500-1,000 and you can get a good boat that if you decide to move into competitive racing you can get the parts you need at that time, good used sails and gear are out there to be had. Or, make that big investment then.

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All I can say is that LP is lucky the RS Sailing dropped the ball with the Neo being 60 cm too short or we would be having a very different thread. So don't tell them that the average american sailor weighs 13 stone. A race quality roto-molded polyethylene dinghy is going to show up at some point. It's only a matter of time, and for the record, polyethylene is not brittle like the Hunter ABS plastic that we hate. It's the $300 kayak plastic.

 The money isn't as tight as some think. I retired from motocross racing one year ago and I would often see new guys show up on $8k machines. There was also over $1k per year in maintenance costs. Within 2 years, many would buy a $10k toyhauler. (I believe this translates to caravan in English). We also see a lot of parents with 12 year old kids spending $3k a year on youth hockey. Most of the parents would rather be at the beach in the afternoon with the kid, rather than a cold ice rink at 5: AM for hockey practice.

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21 hours ago, Eddie_E said:

All I can say is that LP is lucky the RS Sailing dropped the ball with the Neo being 60 cm too short or we would be having a very different thread. So don't tell them that the average american sailor weighs 13 stone. A race quality roto-molded polyethylene dinghy is going to show up at some point. It's only a matter of time, and for the record, polyethylene is not brittle like the Hunter ABS plastic that we hate. It's the $300 kayak plastic.

 The money isn't as tight as some think. I retired from motocross racing one year ago and I would often see new guys show up on $8k machines. There was also over $1k per year in maintenance costs. Within 2 years, many would buy a $10k toyhauler. (I believe this translates to caravan in English). We also see a lot of parents with 12 year old kids spending $3k a year on youth hockey. Most of the parents would rather be at the beach in the afternoon with the kid, rather than a cold ice rink at 5: AM for hockey practice.

The RS Neo is a gateway drug to the RS Aero for youth sailors. It is what it is.

If you want a quality, rotomolded, polyethylene, 13 ft racing boat for $6k then buy a Hobie Wave.

By the way, the Wave has two classes, one of which is approved by the builder and one of which isn't, so it should be just the kind of boat that Sunfish sailors will enjoy.

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I have sailed a Hobie Wave that belongs to one of our WSA club members. We have two of them that belong to guys who race our pursuit races.

I like the Wave for it's smooth ride through chop and the lack of a center-board is the shallow areas. My only reason for not having bought one is that it's almost too easy to sail fast. You could literally sail the circumference of an entire lake for an hour with the main sheet close hauled and cleated without changing sail trim at all. So it's exactly the  opposite of the way I sail a Laser or Aero.  As you already know, I'm constantly trimming the sail and hiking in those.

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5 minutes ago, Eddie_E said:

I have sailed a Hobie Wave that belongs to one of our WSA club members. We have two of them that belong to guys who race our pursuit races.
 

Maybe I should buy a Wave and join WSA?

You can never have too many boats or too many sailing clubs.

Wait, isn't this thread supposed to be about Sunfish?  

 

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Yes, I'll get back to Sunfish racing. Sorry about the side track, but now that clean Waves are showing up on CL for $1k used, it's hard to not notice the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

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This thread has meandered.

The real question for LP remains asking them why they are trying to disenfranchise the existing International Sunfish Class Association and create a new one.

So far they have ducked and weaved but they have failed to answer the question.

Every time we allow ourselves to go off on on a side track, for example by asking questions about inventory near Austin Texas, they seize on the opportunity to avoid talking about the real issue.  We can discuss delivery times all we like. I am sure that LP would prefer that we do.

They say they can guarantee delivery within 60-90 days. FWIW, that is very good. So good, its hard to believe. LP uses a dealer model so the dealers stock inventory. Its up to the local dealer to apprise local demand and determine how much inventory he risks carrying. An inventory stocking lead time for a consumer good costing over $5k  supplied from China of 60 days (given container shipping times etc) is pretty darn good. FMCG are quicker but a shoe retailer often has to order further in advance than 60 days.  Foreign Car dealers cannot get inventory in 60 days.

BUT LP surely loves us to talk about this.

The real question is Why are they fighting with the ISCA?

When you cut through all the BS of referring us to the FAQ, which are laden with infrequently asked questions which do not come close to the subject on everybody's minds, here is what we know:

LP say that the only reason for the dispute is Intellectual Property

The Class Association were prepared to sign the agreement with regard to IP with only one exception; they did not agree to pass the rights to the name of the ISCA to LP.

So according to LP, the ONLY reason for this dispute is that they dont want the ISCA to call themselves the ISCA without receiving permission from LP each year......and the question is WHY?

They say the volunteers are doing great work....so apparently they are not disappointed with the great work of the Class

They say they will license the name to ISCA for no charge... so apparently its not about money.

They say they will license the name to ISCA for 15 years....but have no response when we ask them the simple question, "Why would you not license it to the ISCA in perpetuity?"

 

Ironically, I have seen nothing that suggests that LP owns the rights to the name ISCA...(and ISCA have wisely gone ahead and registered ISCA as a trademark)

 

So this is the summary of the conversation so far:

LP :  "We insist that ISCA transfer the rights to the name of the Class Association to LP"

Sailors: "Why?"

LP : "Please refer to FAQ on our website for an answer"

Sailors: "We have looked at the faq....it  says you want the Class Association name, it doesnt say why you want it"

LP:  "Ummmm"

Wess:  "How long does someone in Austin have to wait for a sunfish?"
 

Lp : "Phew, we can answer that question. We have had supply problems but those are fixed now. We guarantee delivery to dealers and direct customers in 60-90 days but you should be able to get what you want sooner than that"

 

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

 

Hopefully someone at the town meeting does not let them off so lightly.

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, IPLore said:

They say they will license the name to ISCA for 15 years....but have no response when we ask them the simple question, "Why would you not license it to the ISCA in perpetuity?"

If what I have read is correct, they will license the name for 15 years, but they retain the right to break the contract after 9 months, which is something they have neither mentioned or denied/corrected. If that really is in the contract, it is in reality a 9 months contract that might extend. Question - would you trust LP not to exercise their right to early termination?

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

If what I have read is correct, they will license the name for 15 years, but they retain the right to break the contract after 9 months, which is something they have neither mentioned or denied/corrected. If that really is in the contract, it is in reality a 9 months contract that might extend. Question - would you trust LP not to exercise their right to early termination?

The bit about 9 month contract is from what appears to be an unreliable source though. I don't think we should put too much credence in that until its better authenticated.  But that doesn't alter the basic question

"why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

 

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

The bit about 9 month contract is from what appears to be an unreliable source though. I don't think we should put too much credence in that until its better authenticated. 

Maybe, but I have always believed that there was something in the contract that stopped the ISCA committee signing the deal they were offered and I honestly cannot believe it was just bloody mindedness. 

2 hours ago, JimC said:

But that doesn't alter the basic question

"why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

+1

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

.  But that doesn't alter the basic question

"why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

 

+ 2

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

But that doesn't alter the basic question

"why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

 

+ 3

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Not really relevant, but since it has been mentioned twice in this thread

The ISCA Class Office isn't in California anymore

It was moved to Daleville AL about two years ago and is run by a multiple World Champion and his spouse (or vice versa).

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18 hours ago, IPLore said:

 

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Not really relevant, but since it has been mentioned twice in this thread

The ISCA Class Office isn't in California anymore

It was moved to Daleville AL about two years ago and is run by a multiple World Champion and his spouse (or vice versa).

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

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20 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Not really relevant, but since it has been mentioned twice in this thread

The ISCA Class Office isn't in California anymore

It was moved to Daleville AL about two years ago and is run by a multiple World Champion and his spouse (or vice versa).

Correct. Eduardo Cordero runs the ISCA office. 

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On 12/16/2017 at 7:54 PM, Wavedancer II said:

The thread has gone off topic once again. Maybe we should all chill and wait for the 'Town Hall Mtg' next year and see what will develop.

Think you have suggested this more than once and while I agree and would say...

+1...

others seem to be pretty fixated on it judging from the number of posts, LOL.

Hopefully both sides show some sense at the meeting on 8th.

As a sailor I could not give a fig what the boat or class is named and don't want to spend money or time on it. I do care about access to boats and parts and sails. 

Alcort 14 to be known as the A14 with the "A" sideways like the lateen sail, and branded with a tag line "come sail a fish with your friends."

Because that is what it is about.... sailing and racing with friends. Not engaging lawyers and asking me for money to engage lawyers fighting for something that does not matter to the sailors. And LP could do nothing about it other than build boats and supply parts assuming they actually want to be in the sailboat building business. God only knows if they do. 

Dummies all. May the new year bring them wisdom and flexibility.

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

+a bunch more 

Surprised especially at you. Explain to me why as a sailor I should give a sh*t what the name of the class is? Even if they are 1000% right how does it make any difference what it's called and why would I want a single dollar of my class money / dues that should be spent on sailing, sailors, and the game, instead diverted to lawyers and away from supporting class growth and sailing.

Onviously this is not a popular view here but my view is minus one million to this. Give em the stupid name. I don't see why I should care at all about it. Heck; call it the "LP Sucks" class but stop spending time and money on lawyers instead of on the game. Never did I think you of all people would want to go to war for a stupid name??

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LP have already demonstrated why a CA needs to own their own name. Its impossible to be an independant CA without it, because if you try and be independant from the name owner the name owner can simply take the name away and set up a new organisation with the same name. Imagine the situation if ISCO was what used to be ISCA, and ISCA was the new poodle set up by LP? Remember its not the Sunfish name or logo LP are after, no-one disputes they own that. Its the ISCA name they are demanding.

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16 minutes ago, JimC said:

LP have already demonstrated why a CA needs to own their own name. Its impossible to be an independant CA without it, because if you try and be independant from the name owner the name owner can simply take the name away and set up a new organisation with the same name. Imagine how much more confusing it would be if ISCO was what used to be ISCA, and ISCA was thenew poodle set up by LP?

Absolutely agree.  I just would not fight or spend one dime of sailors money trying to keep the ISCA name.  "A14;  Sail a fish with friends." The heck with LP and wasting sailors' money on legal fights.

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Absolutely agree.  I just would not fight or spend one dime of sailors money trying to keep the ISCA name.  "

That's fine, so you spend a lot of sailors' money rebranding ISCA as A14CA, then LP demand that name and so it goes on. And as soon as there is any disagreement with LP they set up a new poodle group with whatever new assn name you've established. 

So it still comes down to "LP, ...why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

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I'm not sure I understand Wess's logic.

He is posting on a thread "Huh a new sunfish class?" which is asking why LP is going to all the bother of trying (and apparently failing) to start a new Sunfish class. I used to own a couple of Sunfish, so I am curious.

Wess isn't curious to hear LP's answer . Fine. Plenty of other threads to follow.

but it doesn't cost millions of dollars of legal fees to ask the question.

Apparently, LP has pulled out a handgun and is firing haphazardly at their own boots all because they want to own the class name.

Seems a dumb move to me. Before we just conclude that LP are a few bulbs short of a full chandelier in the management brain trust.....it's reasonable to ask the question.

I think Jim's question goes to the heart of the matter. i haven't read the whole thread here but I looked at LP's  infamous FAQ and they are meaningless platitudes. LP remind me of the kid at the back of the classroom who suddenly realizes he has been asked a question, but he doesn't know what the question is, so he just starts burbling away in the hope he might say something relevant.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Snip....LP are a few bulbs short of a full chandelier in the management brain trust.....snip

 

 

*A few Sail loops short of a set

*a few feet short of a halyard

*their halyard doesn’t hoist all the way to the boom end

* rigged with a Jen’s rig in a drifter

* their sails are short a panel

* not the fairest Centerboard in the bag

* their mainsheet isn’t connected to the traveler 

* Sailing with their rudder kicked up

* shifty but can’t read one 

*they don’t get rights for being on attack

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

... Jim's question

IPLore first formulated it in that format, but yes, it seems to me that goes to the heart of the matter. If LP come back with an answer that was logical, reasonable, understandable, devoid of management speak and had no potential for hidden agendas then it seems to me that would blow a significant hole in ICSAs case for not signing the name over. Without that there is the strong suspicion that its all about enabling LP to control the previously independant CA.

So as IPLore said  "LP, ...why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

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I can't believe you guys (and or gals) can't get that the simple answer to that question was already stated by them (first conference) and was something like (best I can recall):

1.) we believe we (LP) own it not ISCA... it is them taking from us and we will sue if they do use it after date X.

2.) it's not the class's job to protect the IP.

3.) implied and not directly stated but a common business theme at work here... we want and need to control anything that has our brand name Sunfish (our IP) on it. 

So it's clear I have no clue as to who lies and who tells truth on #1 but I do believe I know who it matters more to. I also have no clue who wins if it goes to court as it seems clear it will given the public statements by both parties to date. That said ISCA's public appeal for legal funds has raised a grand total of about $6k USD from about 40 people total. How very unimpressive. Good luck in a legal war of attrition with that war chest.  And yeah I know you guys don't agree but I would rather use that money to rebrand the class and move forward rather than fight LP. Once the name is changed to anything not SUNFISH related say "A14... come sail a fish with our friends" LP can't sue them anymore and sailors class dues and money can be used for the betterment of sailors rather than the enrichment of lawyers. 

On #2 I would obviously agree with LP. Spend sailors money on sailing. I get it that many of you want to fight... but is it your money you propose to fight with? How many of you will put your money where your mouth is? Did you give to the ISCA legal fund? Why not if you believe they should fight?

On #3 I can agree the business logic. 

I am no fan of LP and for sure not a puppet for them. But geeze if we are being serious and not just funnin on the Internet then you guys just seem to want to fight a battle you will not pay for, likely can't afford (based on results so far), and does nothing to benefit sailors. 

I answered your question repeatedly. But nobody can answer mine. 

* why does the name matter for sailors? How is my sailing experience worse if it's called the A14 tomorrow?

* how is it wrong for me to want to spend my money benefitting sailors and the game instead of paying lawyers?

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Imagine if you invested in something for 50 years, lots of work and dollars involved. Would you just give it away?

LP is wanting something for free that they feel is theirs for some reason just because they bought the rights/tooling/name of the Sunfish sailboat, even though none of the previous owners/builders of Sunfish ever saw as a part of the company and was not part of the contract. In fact we know that it was separated from AMF when the class was accepted by IYRU back in the 80's.

The 'heirs' of ISCA are the sailors who run it now and who join and participate, not LP.

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Wess

IMO, you are being extremely naive. If the ISCA gives their name to LP, they will not exist in 5 years time. 

You cannot have the Sunfish class association without the name "Sunfish" in it. That really is the most stupid idea I have heard. If you decide to buy a Sunfish and want to race, name do you look for? Do you search for something like the A14 Class Association or do you look for something with Sunfish and class and association in the name? Do you think that if LP gets the name ISCA they will sit on it and do nothing?

You see this as a fight about IP. I believe you are mistaken. This is a fight about who runs, owns and controls the class association . The name simply embodies that whole debate.

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For agrument's sake let's say there are long term benefits to the class giving in to LP's demands and signing off - availability of parts, Worlds charter boats, financial support to grow the class, etc.  I think many long term class members refuse to consider this because of their long-term resentment towards LP.  The hope is LP will go away and replaced by a better builder.

I'm probably in that very camp as a Laser sailor.

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Likely the only way LP feels they can survive is by owning all the pieces and having as close to a monopoly as possible on the Sunfish and Laser. If the supply of parts/boats/sails gets in the hands of others to any greater degree, LP would probably wither and die. I am sure they are feeling the sting of Intensity and others already. However, it is romantic to think that a white knight will swoop in, cut prices, enhance quality and dramatically improve delivery times. 

One thing I don't understand. If all the dough is in the school/resort market, why hasn't anybody just copied the two boats already and gone for it? Lots of people in this thread are convinced things could be way cheaper. Schools and resorts don't need one-design boats. Do you think the brands are that strong? I have a feeling the market isn't as big as suspected. And with the massive geographic spread, I bet margins would suck. LP apparently haven't figured it out, and they have been at it for quite some time. My guess is people even smarter than those in DA have already done some due dilligence.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

Wess

IMO, you are being extremely naive. If the ISCA gives their name to LP, they will not exist in 5 years time. 

You cannot have the Sunfish class association without the name "Sunfish" in it. That really is the most stupid idea I have heard. If you decide to buy a Sunfish and want to race, name do you look for? Do you search for something like the A14 Class Association or do you look for something with Sunfish and class and association in the name? Do you think that if LP gets the name ISCA they will sit on it and do nothing?

You see this as a fight about IP. I believe you are mistaken. This is a fight about who runs, owns and controls the class association . The name simply embodies that whole debate.

^^^this

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Still nobody answered my question! Youz guys are nuts. And care a lot more than I do. 

But yet not one of you I bet contributed a dime to the ISCA legal fund... why so much talk and so little walk??

Anyway I went sailing my Laser and communed with Mr. Kirby. It was a great conversation till my traveler fairlead (class legal or generic part) broke mid gybe.  Swimming in cold water sucks. Watching a freighter bear down is worse but it really really  sucked when the wind died when I was still a mile from the home beach, light was fading, and temps were returning to freezing! But still at the end of it all I decided that sailing is better than typing so I shall do some glass work tonight, get new fairlead tomorrow, and go Laser sailing again!  You guys can keep fighting. But you are nuts spending money on lawyers. 

Peace and love. Peace and love. 

And anybody know how to do a deck rebuild and traveler fairlead repair overnight in an un-heated garage when its supposed to be below freezing?

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Plastic sheeting, old blanket and a heat source. But fear fire and take endless precautions.

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

Still nobody answered my question!

Strange. I thought my last post exactly answered your question. The name matters because without or without the name associating with the boat, the class association dies. It will be unable to compete against the LP puppet association which would have the name of the class in its title. Which do you think would survive? Your so named A14 association or the International Sunfish Class Association? 

Which event will get the most entries? The A14 US national championships for boats with a fish symbol on their sail  or the Sunfish national championships?

Again, in answer to your question, this is not really a battle over IP. IP is simply the chosen weapon. This is a battle for control over the class association that governs Sunfish sailing. The ISCA is fighting to retain its independence from the class manufacturer.

You also seem to have missed an important point made by IPLore, which I happen to agree with, that LP probably can't actually prevent the ISCA using the name. 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

[snip] Again, in answer to your question, this is not really a battle over IP. IP is simply the chosen weapon. This is a battle for control over the class association that governs Sunfish sailing. The ISCA is fighting to retain its independence from the class manufacturer.

You also seem to have missed an important point made by IPLore, which I happen to agree with, that LP probably can't actually prevent the ISCA using the name. 

Agree that's the obvious conclusion. After all, if LP actually had rights to the ISCA name then you would think they wouldn't need to ask for it. And of course there's nothing to stop LP demanding rights to any other name ISCA might use if its all about control.

But all our guesses, yours or Wess' about LPs motivation are of very limited value. So it still comes down to

 "LP, ...why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You also seem to have missed an important point made by IPLore, which I happen to agree with, that LP probably can't actually prevent the ISCA using the name. 

Does GM sue car clubs for using Corvette in their name? Does Ford sue the Mustang clubs? Chrysler the Challenger clubs? Does any corporation sue an enthusiast club for using their products name unless they are abusing or disparaging the brand? None that I have ever heard of.

So what makes LP's move correct and proper? I do not think ISCA has to do much lawyering at this time unless LP takes them to court, which I think LP would lose based on the status with WS as the international class for the Sunfish and the precedent of all class organizations worldwide. If that comes to fruition then I think the support will roll in for the legal fees. WS may even help.

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No GBR  I mean the question of did you put your money where your mouth is? 

On the other I thought it was obvious we disagree and I think there are many realities you are ignoring. No point in endlessly repeating and arguing though. Bottom line is I give sailors (and even LP) more credit for being able to make intelligent decisions aligned with their vested self interests. 

I gotta go buy a part for my Laser. The generic is at least twice as expensive as the LP part. But I am buying the generic part. For my otherwise class legal boat with class legal sail. Vested self interest.

If ISCA and LP all decide to fight each other I believe eventually ISCA dies if they insist on fighting the IP name fight. Parts battle yes. Name battle no. Think ISCA has a better chance to survive if they simply drop that silly fight and adopt some generic name. I get it; you disagree. We shall see in the end but even better would be if they all decide to find some middle ground on Jan 8th.

 

 

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8 hours ago, JimC said:

Plastic sheeting, old blanket and a heat source. But fear fire and take endless precautions.

Sorry; I missed this and neglected to say thanks! I was actually wondering how much extra hardner (205) I could get away with. It turned out to be a pretty ugly and marginal repair as the epoxy didn't fully kick but I also didn't burn the house down and it's good enough for what is now a beater beach Laser not used for racing. Might get out again today with it if any breeze shows up but I best stay near the shore and safety LOL. Boat and repair is sitting outside in 40F am sunshine now while I pray for wind. 

So much fun dinghy sailing yesterday. Been too long.  I might have to get a Sunfish if only I could figure out where and what class to join!! Jk. B)

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

how much extra hardner (205) I could get away with.

Nooo! You will soon get PM.

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32 minutes ago, JimC said:

Nooo! You will soon get PM.

Thanks. All good. Lack of heat did me in. But I think it's good enough. Most load taken by the outboard screw which goes through rail and has backing "knob." Will give it a trial close in to beach and hopefully it will hold. If not I got a fall back plan. 

Laser today, F27 and toast to Ian tomorrow! I am liking this winter vacation thing!!

I now return you to the scheduled Sunfish lawyer fray. A rose by any other name...

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

Sorry; I missed this and neglected to say thanks! I was actually wondering how much extra hardner (205) I could get away with. It turned out to be a pretty ugly and marginal repair as the epoxy didn't fully kick but I also didn't burn the house down and it's good enough for what is now a beater beach Laser not used for racing. Might get out again today with it if any breeze shows up but I best stay near the shore and safety LOL. Boat and repair is sitting outside in 40F am sunshine now while I pray for wind. 

So much fun dinghy sailing yesterday. Been too long.  I might have to get a Sunfish if only I could figure out where and what class to join!! Jk. B)

No extra hardener ever!!! West System has mix ratios . If you mess with the ratios you create an inferior plastic or it doesn’t kick at all. 

Stay in the recommended temperature range

heat lamps are your friend.

look for the 125 watt brooder lamps 

 

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On 12/21/2017 at 2:58 AM, JimC said:

Plastic sheeting, old blanket and a heat source. But fear fire and take endless precautions.

Quote

On 12/22/2017 at 4:01 AM,  Groovernail said:

heat lamps are your friend.

You know.....that is actually a pretty darn good idea.

Put Bill Crane and the President of the ISCA in a freezing garage under plastic sheeting and an old blanket with some 125 Watt brooder lamps and don't let them come out until they have agreed on a solution.

After 24 hours they will either come out as lifelong buddies .....or there will have been fire and combustion!

Hey,  it is as likely to work as anything else that has been tried so far.

Merry Christmas to All and a prosperous New Year. :wub:

 

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On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 8:19 AM, Foxy said:

Fifteen years ago, there were over 30 Sunfish in our local fleet. Today there are only two who show up regularly and another two or three that come out sporadically. If you look at the Florida regattas on Regatta Networks, you can easily determine that there are only about 15 Florida boats that are attending regattas outside of their own local clubs. The supply chain has been seriously damaged and the builder and class organization are throwing rocks at each other.

The Aero hasn't quite reached critical mass to where I can easily find a local fleet to sail with. That, more than the $8k boat price is the sticking point. However, I have the same sticking point with buying a new Sunfish these days. And yes, there are 30 year old Sunfish that can be bought cheap. But try to find one of those $100 used plastic daggerboards. $365 from APS, $535 for an new sail and if you click on the order tab, it ships in "3 weeks or more".

Both ISCA and LP have serious problems that can only be solved when they kiss and make up!

For most Laser parts I'm finding that with some extra effort you can usually, (but not always) find what you're looking for.  It takes a bit of internet shopping time and then phone calls to make sure the supplier actually has the part that says "in stock" on their website.  However, I'm finding things.  Also, the used market is good for those looking for class legal upgrades.  Price of entry for a decent used Laser is around $2,500.00.  I found mine for $ 1700.00 a year ago.  A cherry 2001 model with trailex trailer.  It was all classic rigged so I swapped my upgraded rigging, boat covers and dolly off my 1998 model and then sold the 1998 boat for $1000.00, (in a matter of days).  I agree it's a mess, but with more effort and patience than something like this should take you can get in the game and stay in the game.

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

No extra hardener ever!!! West System has mix ratios . If you mess with the ratios you create an inferior plastic or it doesn’t kick at all. 

Stay in the recommended temperature range

heat lamps are your friend.

look for the 125 watt brooder lamps 

 

Thanks Gouv.  @JimCsaid same.  One of my boat builder friends said to always use a bit extra hardner as it comes out in the amine blush and ensures a complete reaction but either way my issue was not chemistry but rather a lack of adequate heat.  I did sail it again yesterday and much to my surprise the quite ugly and obviously marginal repair held.  Was going to sail the F27 today but another friend wants to trial Lasers so looks like I get 3 days in a row in the boat!!  :)  Blowing 10 now and supposed to build so the repair will really get tested!  As will my back, shoulders, and knees, quads, etc...  Death rolls here I come!!

Hey @TimFordi550#87 - you up for an F27 sail on the 26th and a toast to Ian?  I think Kevin is in. 

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Went for a sail for the winter solstice in my RS Aero on Bristol Harbor yesterday .

Didn't break any parts on my boat - class legal, generic or otherwise.

But I did discover  a small hole in my drysuit. How much extra hardener can I get away with?

I did see Bill Crane and Larry Mass under a plastic blanket, but I didn't want to intrude on their privacy.

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to all the lawyers working on the "LaserPerformance vs the class association formerly known as ISCA" case.

PS Before you ask, I have the 7 and 9 rigs.

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I have used wax paper as a liner, and once wrapped a glass batten with it, when doing repairs where I needed to try and control things. Works pretty well, temperature was not an issue then.

Repaired the back edge of my Sunfish daggerboard where a chunk had been taken out. Clamped two boards on either side with the wax paper between then poured the glass in. Kept it pretty much under control and minimized the amount of sanding I had to do.

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Did someone say pigs in a blanket?  I have the formula rig!  Bow sprit with furling asym, and screacher, also a jib, square top main and stern extension.  Sweet canvas pop-top cover makes winter sailing a dream.

Happy, happy, joy, joy and all that. 

Shortly (about a week from now) headed off to take father in law on great american road, plane, train and boat bucket list trip.  So nobody settle this fish thing.  I expect to see at least 3 pages of people insulting each other by the time I get back, holidays or not!! :P

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On November 24, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Gouvernail said:

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

  Death rolls here I come!!

 

 Never never never death rollll!!!

If you think you are beginning a death roll, use both hands and wail on the main sheet. TRIM !!! TRIM !!! TRIM!!! Trim it in as fast as you can. 

Also

At no time will you let go of that main sheet but you can let go of your tiller because the thing attached to it isn’t in the water anyway.

one of two things will happen:

1. The likely result is you will very suddenly start heeling to leeward..

Fine!! Ease a bit. Then slowly beat away until you are once again Sailing by the lee and fully under control.  

And... Do not ease so damn far you start losing control again. Remember , when saiiing bybtge Lee, trimmingnin a bit is how you depower .

or..

2. You may not trim fast enough to stop the death roll. Odds are you will be rinsed off the boat WITH A DEATH GRIP ON THAT MAINSHEET.

The Sail will rapidly trim all the way in and the boat will flop over on its side .

the best part is the fully trimmed Sail usually flops over to leeward:

all you need to do is pull yourself to the boat, climb on the board,  drag your ancient self unto the boat, and sit there with the sail flogging  until you feel like hurrying again.

if the boat dumps to windward.... just hold onto the board and ride through when it dumps right back over ... then right, drag your very wet self on, and continue .

 

 Never never never death roll !! The tip of the mast hits the water at 20 mph and has HUGE leverage for bendingbtge too section or ripping out  the nast step.

no move is more DESTRUCTIVE AND STUPID than climbing to the high side rail of a death rolling boat 

why??

If you are down low dragging in the water you serve as a mighty fine brake.

up on the rail you are adding your 130 pounds ( what?? You weigh more?) to the load the mast must bring to a dead stop.

and

how the hell do you climb to the top side of the rolling boat white trimming with both hands??

the answer is: you can’t 

Climbing up there is  just plain stupid!!

if you want to launch yourself up into the air... throw the Sail and use the wind your  lift your fat old ass.

 

sheesh

 

 

 

 

 

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The tendency is to lean in to counteract the roll. Wrong! Trim main, and lean back into water...this not only lessens weight on the low (windward) side but also the drag of your body in water causes boat to head up. You'll pop right back upright. 

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12 hours ago, tillerman said:

 

Hey, should we change the name of the game? 

And Gov if you ain't rolling you are going slow and losing! 

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On December 18, 2017 at 6:57 PM, IPLore said:

So this is the summary of the conversation so far:

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?"

IPL : "Sorry, but that does not answer the original question......why do you want the Class Association to make over the name ISCA to you?

 

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Geeze it's gotta suck to not sail a LASER anymore and not have fleets and other sailors to play with! All that is left is typing! Slings and aeros of outrageous fortune! JK :ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, Wess said:

Geeze it's gotta suck to not sail a LASER anymore and not have fleets and other sailors to play with! All that is left is typing! Slings and aeros of outrageous fortune! JK :ph34r:

It does suck. I have to go to all these Aero regattas all over the country and sail local Aero club races on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Sundays in the summer and go local Aero frostbiting on Saturdays in the winter and try to squeeze days in for Aero fun sailing like I did on the winter solstice this week. I have absolutely no time left to go Laser sailing.

This is NOT what I signed up for when I placed the first order for an Aero in North America. I wanted to be part of one of those cult classes where you hardly ever see another boat from the same class unless you travel 1500 miles to their one regatta a year in the Florida Keys. It's all gone horribly wrong. Every Aero regatta I go to it seems I meet new Aero owners and people sailing charter Aeros who then immediately buy them after the regatta. There are frigging Aeros everywhere.

And nobody is suing the class or the builder or the designer in Aero world. So dull. I really miss the fun of all those arguments with Gantt about whether ILCA or Bruce Kirby is Satan.

What have I done? 

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9 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hey that don't look like TM or CT! Beer foul!!!

That's Tillerman in #2017. Some random regatta on the west coast I went to last year.

Here are some Aeros racing at my home club in MA.

yandy149063.jpg


Wait. Isn't this supposed to be a Sunfish thread? Stop provoking me, Wess. Get back to ISCO vs ISCA.

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You are just lucky I am too stupid to know how to post pics of me and my Laser from yesterday, you charlatan you!

If you want Sunfish pics just go to the ISCA, uh ISCO, uh... a Sunfish class website. But be careful. One of them wants money!

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

You are just lucky I am too stupid to know how to post pics of me and my Laser from yesterday, you charlatan you!

If you want Sunfish pics just go to the ISCA, uh ISCO, uh... a Sunfish class website. But be careful. One of them wants money!

OK. This one is from a Facebook page just called "Sunfish."  

25588011_1732583073482926_81712597315465 
 

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I'm with Wess, while Tillerman keeps harping on about the RS Aero it is really no more than a minor distraction. 

 
The real issue here is how two of the most successful dinghy classes in the world, the Sunfish and the Laser, can sort out their manufacturer issues and continue to grow and contribute to the ongoing success of dinghy sailing as a sport. We don't want or need new classes but we do need LP to get on the side of their customers and work with them, not burn all their and their customers cash on legal spats.
 
The RS Aero is not a factor. It has been around for almost 4 years. Based on the boat numbers I can find is looks like they have sold maybe 2500 boats in total since launch. There was a real rush at the beginning so my guess is this year they have sold maybe 4-500 boats worldwide.
 
On the same basis, looking at sail numbers and even with the horrific LP supply constraints Laser have sold in excess of 2000 boats every year for many, many years and continue to do so. Thats not to mention the thousands that are sold second hand and rotate through the fleets every year. The Laser remains indisputably the preeminent single handed dinghy racing class in the world. Its a fantastic boat, challenging and rewarding to sail, and offers top quality racing for Junior, Youth and Olympic sailors right through to Masters. It attracted over 1500 entries to its World Champs this year, not that far short of the total Aero production to date, and had to restrict entry numbers at several of its World Champ events.
 
By comparison the Aero is but a niche class. Judging by the published results the standard of racing is nowhere near the Laser, with Laser Grand Masters (and Aero dealers)  dominating its top open championship results. In my experience and observation it is not nearly as great a boat to race in many conditions and while light is just not nearly as good a boat ,or a fleet to race in, as the Laser. 
 
The Laser is undoubtedly a lucky freak of a boat. We are so lucky that the original designers and those that have refined it over the years have, by good luck or good management, just got it right. No amount of negative publicity or even the negative attitude and approach of LP will change the fact that the Laser is a great boat that deserves every bit of its success, which will hopefully continue well into the future.
 
So LP and pretty much everyone else should forget the Aero, LP should sort out its supply issues as its says it is and let the sailors and volunteers who have run Sailfish and Laser racing for over 40 years get on with it. LP can then focus on selling lots of boat, growing their market and with it sailing in general.
 
So LP and Mr Rastegar how about it. You own great products. Why not sell them to people who acknowledge that and want to buy them and let them get on with using them and growing your market so they and you all benefit. 
 
Don't worry if they utter the name of your products or show a trademark somewhere, even without your express permission. They do that not to disrespect you or your brand but to acknowledge how great the products that you have are. Rejoice in that, embrace your sailor customers, supply them with boats and parts and make your company as great as the products you sell and we will all (except maybe Aero sailors!) bathe in the success of LP.
 
Good luck to the Sunfish class with their Town Hall meeting.
 
Merry Christmas
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5 hours ago, Laserist said:

 

I'm with Wess, while Tillerman keeps harping on about the RS Aero it is really no more than a minor distraction... 

 
The RS Aero is not a factor...
 
So LP and pretty much everyone else should forget the Aero, LP should sort out its supply issues as its says it is and let the sailors and volunteers who have run Sailfish and Laser racing for over 40 years get on with it. LP can then focus on selling lots of boat, growing their market and with it sailing in general.
 
So LP and Mr Rastegar how about it. You own great products. Why not sell them to people who acknowledge that and want to buy them and let them get on with using them and growing your market so they and you all benefit. 
 
Don't worry if they utter the name of your products or show a trademark somewhere, even without your express permission. They do that not to disrespect you or your brand but to acknowledge how great the products that you have are. Rejoice in that, embrace your sailor customers, supply them with boats and parts and make your company as great as the products you sell and we will all (except maybe Aero sailors!) bathe in the success of LP.
 
Good luck to the Sunfish class with their Town Hall meeting.
 
Merry Christmas


You are so right.

None of the single-handed boats introduced in the last 40 years has come anywhere near challenging the dominance of the Laser and the Sunfish. And even if the supply of new Lasers ands Sunfish totally dries up, there are huge numbers of second-hand boats out there to keep the Laser and Sunfish faithful happy for at least the next 20 years.

Please forgive my enthusiasm for the RS Aero. I have always been a bit of a contrarian, not content just to follow the herd. Thankfully there are plenty of other folk who feel the same, so we can all have fun racing our "distractions." 

Merry Christmas to my many Laser and Sunfish sailing friends. Hope you manage to sort out your issues with LP.

 

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Tillerman, I see nobody writing about Sunfish or Lasers with the same enthusiasm with which you write about the RS Aero.  It’s only how great the Sunfish of Laser used to be, or could be if this or that happened.  Keep doing what you are doing.

And if the RS Aero fleet consists of only a bunch of Grand Masters, some young-ones ought to get their butts in RS Aeros and try to beat them.

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21 minutes ago, torrid said:

Tillerman, I see nobody writing about Sunfish or Lasers with the same enthusiasm with which you write about the RS Aero.  It’s only how great the Sunfish of Laser used to be, or could be if this or that happened.  Keep doing what you are doing.

And if the RS Aero fleet consists of only a bunch of Grand Masters, some young-ones ought to get their butts in RS Aeros and try to beat them.

Thanks Torrid. The RS Aero has boosted my enthusiasm for sailing to a whole new level. The boat itself is part of the reason, but it's also exciting and rewarding to play a part in building a new class from the ground up. No regrets.

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23 hours ago, tillerman said:

OK. This one is from a Facebook page just called "Sunfish."  

25588011_1732583073482926_81712597315465 
 

Cute baby!  Is she an ISCO or ISCA member? Does she have a blog? 

... or is she just sailing for the fun of it. Good on ya Tillerman!

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41 minutes ago, Wess said:

Cute baby!  Is she an ISCO or ISCA member? Does she have a blog? 

... or is she just sailing for the fun of it. Good on ya Tillerman!

ISCO, she was on the LP bogus Sunfish class Facebook page, which has been posting these rosy Sunfish pics.

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On 12/20/2017 at 8:02 AM, Wess said:

I can't believe you guys (and or gals) can't get that the simple answer to that question was already stated by them (first conference) and was something like (best I can recall):

1.) we believe we (LP) own it not ISCA... it is them taking from us and we will sue if they do use it after date X.

LP can believe what they like. The rest of us can look it up online.

ISCA owns the registered trademark to "ISCA"

2.) it's not the class's job to protect the IP.

Its a wise precaution for any class to register its name and logo and it is very inexpensive to do so.  If your builder happens to be Laser Performance, I would suggest that it is more than a wise precaution....its probably an essential precaution!

3.) implied and not directly stated but a common business theme at work here... we want and need to control anything that has our brand name Sunfish (our IP) on it. 

LP cannot control everything that has the name Sunfish on it, any more than Pepperidge Farm can claim to control everything that has the name "Goldfish" on it. 

So it's clear I have no clue as to who lies and who tells truth on #1 but I do believe I know who it matters more to. I also have no clue who wins if it goes to court as it seems clear it will given the public statements by both parties to date.

I am skeptical about court.

ISCA has no reason to go to court.

LP has shown that they can be a bit rash and unpredictable, so maybe they would like to sue somebody.  But what would be their claim?   As long as ISCA avoids saying anything derogatory about LP or its products, what can LP sue ISCA for?  

If LP dont like ISCA owning their own trademark then LP should have challenged ISCA's application to the USPTO for the ISCA trademark  by filing an opposition with the Trade Mark Trial and Appeal Board (TTAB) within 30 days .  Failing that,  if LP can show that ISCA's registered trademark infringes an existing trade mark they can file a petition to cancel the ISCA's trade mark with the TTAB.   This is NOT a court.

If LP took ISCA to court claiming that the use of the word "Sunfish" has already constituted a trademark infringement and has caused damages to the claimant..... then in order to avoid their claim being summarily dismissed by the court with prejudice, LP are going to have to answer a few questions 

- Can you claim the word "sunfish" as a trademark for all uses of the word sunfish

- What good or service provided by the ISCA is the consumer going to mistakenly assume comes from Laser Performance?

- What damages have been incurred by LP due to the ISCA use of the word Sunfish?

I think the answers to those questions are

- No

-None

- None

 

That said ISCA's public appeal for legal funds has raised a grand total of about $6k USD from about 40 people total. How very unimpressive. Good luck in a legal war of attrition with that war chest.  And yeah I know you guys don't agree but I would rather use that money to rebrand the class and move forward rather than fight LP. Once the name is changed to anything not SUNFISH related say "A14... come sail a fish with our friends" LP can't sue them anymore and sailors class dues and money can be used for the betterment of sailors rather than the enrichment of lawyers. 

On #2 I would obviously agree with LP. Spend sailors money on sailing. I get it that many of you want to fight... but is it your money you propose to fight with? How many of you will put your money where your mouth is? Did you give to the ISCA legal fund? Why not if you believe they should fight? 

On #3 I can agree the business logic. 

I am no fan of LP and for sure not a puppet for them. But geeze if we are being serious and not just funnin on the Internet then you guys just seem to want to fight a battle you will not pay for, likely can't afford (based on results so far), and does nothing to benefit sailors. 

I answered your question repeatedly. But nobody can answer mine. 

* why does the name matter for sailors? How is my sailing experience worse if it's called the A14 tomorrow?   Wess , we are holding a one design regatta next week. Bring your boat along.  We dont have a name for the class but bring whatever boat you own and when you get here you can find out if its the same as everyone elses.

You bought a S***fish?   Umm you might get lucky and discover that there is an owners association for people who own boats like yours but it is very hard to find it exists because it is called the IWBA14A  (International Wes and Bill's A 14 Association)

* how is it wrong for me to want to spend my money benefitting sailors and the game on buying your product and spares at reasonable prices instead of paying high margins to subsidize a fruitless lawsuit? Good question for LP

 

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Both Sunfish (1960ish) and Laser (1970ish) came on the market to fill a void for an unserved demand. Same could be said for Hobie Cat and Windsurfer. The RS Aero is a pretty cool boat, haven't sailed one but looked them over, but it's not targeting a void in the market but trying to capture a segment of an existing market. To be successful at that, they need to offer better value (which imo they do), deliver better customer service (not difficult to outdo LP), and reach a point of critical mass where it's 'the' single handed dinghy to buy. The latter will take a little time, but I think it can be done if RS is committed to the boat for the long haul. When they get to 10-12K boats sold, it'll be pretty well established. 

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Certainly AERO is targeting a void in the market. 

They are trying to sell to the 99.9999% who aren’t currently Sailing  singlehanded Sailboats. 

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15 minutes ago, Wess said:

How do you get that angry on Christmas Eve? Or any day? It's just sailing. Recreation. Fun. Find some peace and love and joy!

Reasons to be angry on Christmas Eve.

1. Because its too cold to go sailing

2. Its not too cold to go sailing ...in fact its warm and blowing 12-15 from the SE...but the better half's parents and sister have arrived and I would be sleeping outside tonight if I snuck off to go sailing.

3. Because the malls and grocery stores are jammed. Wes forgot to buy the cranberries and Mrs Wes has sent him out into the madness again.

4. Because Wes got to the grocery store, forgot what he had been sent out for and the cell phone is dead.

Christmas Eve always has plenty of potential for angst.......but Wess is right .....tomorrow is all about peace and love and joy!   All of us are blessed to have discovered the joy of boats propelled by wind .....we share that. I wish all of you the best possible health for 2018 and many wonderful sailing adventures.

Bill and Larry.....you as well. You both love the Sunfish and just have to find some Xmas spirit to realize that it can be all about the fun.

 

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54 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Certainly AERO is targeting a void in the market. 

They are trying to sell to the 99.9999% who aren’t currently Sailing  singlehanded Sailboats. 

No, there's already several boats available to customers looking for a single-handed dinghy for racing or pleasure sailing. Offering an alternative is trying to capture some of that market, not fill a void. If the 99.999% were looking to buy a solo dinghy, they already had many options.

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