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EquusAsinusDomesticus

Keel Blocks Winter Storage

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Quick question for anyone:

Storing a new boat (for me) at a new yard this winter and noticed they didnt block the keel at all.  The keel is ~7ft, thin trunk, big bulb T keel and the cradle is custom built with 4 pads per side each lined up with a stringer.  Boat seems solid as shit in the cradle, so i'm mostly worried about the pressure of the keel hanging all winter.

Is it sketchy to not have the keel supporting any weight?  Is there any reason with this shaped keel not to block it?  Are the guys at the yard lazy morons for not blocking it or is there some actual reason for doing so with a deep T keel?  Am i a moron for not knowing this...

Thanks

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perfect blocking scenario....slip some cribbage under the keel and wedge up against the bottom of keel....better than setting the keel on blocking then support from the sides after

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1 minute ago, SailBlueH2O said:

perfect blocking scenario....slip some cribbage under the keel and wedge up against the bottom of keel....better than setting the keel on blocking then support from the sides after

That makes sense.  so just bang some wood under there basically?  Thanks for the response

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27 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

And that same keel hangs in the water with the same gravitational pull in the summer, and its ok then, or are you worried then too?

Minus the weight of the water it displaces.  My bigger concern is that the weight of the entire boat is resting on a limited number of pads with a very limited surface area.  

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Ask the boatyard and not us idiots on this site 

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

And that same keel hangs in the water with the same gravitational pull in the summer, and its ok then, or are you worried then too?

 

Well...As long as you live on earth, 'gravitational pull' is always the same so i guess you're right???

In reality, the actual force exerted by the keel on the structure is significantly more when you dont have water displacement.

 

1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

Minus the weight of the water it displaces.  My bigger concern is that the weight of the entire boat is resting on a limited number of pads with a very limited surface area.  

Agreed.  Im also worried about the bolts/washers/glass at the keel/hull joint.  I'm wondering if they don't block it since it's so skinny where it meets the hull  that theyre trying to avoid any lateral force.

 

4 minutes ago, jesposito said:

Ask the boatyard and not us idiots on this site 

Hey man, for better or worse, gotta trust certain people on here a lot more than most anyone in the boat world.  You guys know more about this shit than any yard.

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Maybe this is folklore and old wive's tales (can we still say that?) but I always thought that while on the hard most of the weight of the boat should be on the keel.  The pads / stands  just keep the boat from tipping over.  

Perhaps it depends to some extent on the type of boat.  

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The keel's weight in air vs. water isn't that different, especially on a fin and bulb, as it does not displace all that much volume. However the stress on its immediate attachment should easily handle it's full weight in air. If it is to stay attached to the boat while heeling, being knocked down, or dropping from a wave the attachments should be good for at least double it's weight, and on a deep fin and bulb many times its weight. If this is a worry do not sail the boat. 

So don't worry about the keel, worry about the hull at the pads. Depending on the boat's construction, this could easily dimple the hull at the pads - or not. A heavily build single skin probably not. A lightly built cored hull, it is possible or probable depending. Even if the pads are located at bulkheads and stringers, unless the core has been completely removed in all those areas (unlikely) then crushing the core is a possibility. Personally I'd want the keel supported. There is higher probability of damaging the hull from the pads, than damaging the keel structure by standing it on the keel. 8 pads x maybe 4 sq in per pad effective x 8 pads x 100 psi = 26000 lbs supported, provided the pads are exactly evenly loaded (which is impossible) etc. 

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Bugger is right - the weight should be on the keel and the pads are just props for balance - they shouldn't bear any significant weight.

The yard you're in doesn't seem that competent.

The comments about the keel just hanging in the water are are way off - in the water the entire immersed hull is displacing the weight of the boat - on stands the weight becomes point loading where the pads are - an entirely different scenario. Even when it's in bunks on a trailer the loading is far more localized than in the water and the keel should bear significant weight.

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As far as the 'lazy morons in the yard' theory goes, I trust my guys, some of whom have been putting boats away for winter every six months for more than forty years plus. Alot of them are the same boats which have held up remarkably well. They'll tell you exactly what Bugger and Sloop are saying. If it's an old wives tale it seems to be working.

Number one tell that a boat hasn't been balanced properly on the keel is sticky companionway hatch...and not interested in how stiff everyones hull is yada yada yada...

 

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1 minute ago, fufkin said:

As far as the 'lazy morons in the yard' theory goes, I trust my guys, some of whom have been putting boats away for winter every six months for more than forty years plus. Alot of them are the same boats which have held up remarkably well. They'll tell you exactly what Bugger and Sloop are saying. If it's an old wives tale it seems to be working.

Number one tell that a boat hasn't been balanced properly on the keel is sticky companionway hatch...and not interested in how stiff everyones hull is yada yada yada...

 

yea that was a joke...i actually work at a boat yard.  That's why I was curious as i've never seen a boat set without keel blocks.

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I only worked fifteen years as a yard dog. The old timers told me 80 to 90 percent of the weight was on the keel and the cradle or stands were just for balance.

Eyeball the hull shape around the pads for deflection and back off the pads if you see any.

And take down the mast you cheap lazy bastards. Windage is huge. Plus, aluminum masts condense moisture and it drains into the bilge. And freezes.

Most importantly, tip in CASH.

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5 hours ago, bugger said:

Maybe this is folklore and old wive's tales (can we still say that?) but I always thought that while on the hard most of the weight of the boat should be on the keel.  The pads / stands  just keep the boat from tipping over.  

Perhaps it depends to some extent on the type of boat.  

This is how my yard has done it for 35+ years.

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When I ran a yard (this is a decade and a bit back, however) SOP was to block the keel first then thump along the hull using the base of your fist to find the bulkheads. That's where the jackstands go. Then ease the travelift slings and double check jackstand positions as well as for any signs of excess pressure on the keel - normally, but rarely seen at the aft end if it's a glue-on keel type of boat. If the captain had specific requirements, however, well, he's the boss.

 

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1 hour ago, ropetrick said:

I only worked fifteen years as a yard dog. The old timers told me 80 to 90 percent of the weight was on the keel and the cradle or stands were just for balance.

Eyeball the hull shape around the pads for deflection and back off the pads if you see any.

And take down the mast you cheap lazy bastards. Windage is huge. Plus, aluminum masts condense moisture and it drains into the bilge. And freezes.

Most importantly, tip in CASH.

Basically keeping your mast up over the winter says either you don't give a fuck...or alternatively, you don't give a fuck.

It's not just the windage or the moisture through the mast which are both great points, but the fact that the windage will result in compounded stresses on the rig in an immobile cradle as opposed to in the water where there is a 'give' factor.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, what about tipping in whiskey?

 

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4 hours ago, Squalamax said:

Speak for yourself.......

 

You are lucky you have a trailer, or you would be asking the same stupid question.

 

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14 minutes ago, jesposito said:

You are lucky you have a trailer, or you would be asking the same stupid question.

 

not a stupid question...Who knows with new shit.  Boat is built to take the load of the keel+gravity down.  Maybe you could hurt the trunk by pushing it up.

Again, i've set 1000s of boats and have always put the load on the keel but thought i'd put the question out there in case there was some new thing with hull construction or whatever.  The more i think about it the more i see the potential for damage if even slightly out of balance in load on a T keel.

seen a fair number of boats get fucked up by shitty winter storage.  trying to avoid the same thing. 

 

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14 minutes ago, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

not a stupid question...Who knows with new shit.  Boat is built to take the load of the keel+gravity down.  Maybe you could hurt the trunk by pushing it up.

Again, i've set 1000s of boats and have always put the load on the keel but thought i'd put the question out there in case there was some new thing with hull construction or whatever.  The more i think about it the more i see the potential for damage if even slightly out of balance in load on a T keel.

seen a fair number of boats get fucked up by shitty winter storage.  trying to avoid the same thing. 

 

Like H20 is saying wouldn't be a bad idea to contact the builder/designer or other owners. No such thing as a stupid question...and you never know with some of these keels with such a small root/contact point to the hull. You could also track down the guys who set the boat and see what they've gotta say. 'Be interesting to see what you come up with. I'm still betting on blocking the keel though.

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Quick estimates..

So 7 ft t bulb.. Guess weighs about 6500 lbs. The displaced water then would be about 600 lbs buoyancy upwards while 6500 lb downwards.  Don' t really make much difference in or out of water.  Blocking not necessary for static vertical load.  

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1 minute ago, bgytr said:

Quick estimates..

So 7 ft t bulb.. Guess weighs about 6500 lbs. The displaced water then would be about 600 lbs buoyancy upwards while 6500 lb downwards.  Don' t really make much difference in or out of water.  Blocking not necessary for static vertical load.  

except in the water all wetted surface is supporting the hull...in this case the 4 pads each side

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55 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

except in the water all wetted surface is supporting the hull...in this case the 4 pads each side

8 pads.  Probably11000lb displacement. Roughly 1400 lb per pad.  It's fine.

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2 minutes ago, bgytr said:

8 pads.  Probably11000lb displacement. Roughly 1400 lb per pad.  It's fine.

yeah...probably....I am curious as to the thinking of the yard

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2 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

...I'd still block and wedge under the bulb

^^^This^^^

Those "idiots" in Mosquito Crk put my boat up one time it was oil canning two of four pads. With keel blocked up. 

Had to ask for a re-do. Hull popped right back, but still............:huh:

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On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 1:20 PM, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

Total displacement is around 9800 lbs. 

Lead is about 700 lb/cubic foot.  Assuming 50% ballast/displacement, your keel displaces about 7 cubic feet.

Water is about 62 lb/cubic foot.  So the effect of keel-hanging-in-air vs. keel-hanging-in-water is about 435 lbs.  Or probably about 50 lbs per keel bolt.

In other words... not something worth worrying about.

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The next time you take a walk around the boatyard, look at the variety of cradles, and specifically where on the hull the pads are placed. Some cradles seem to put the pads further toward the bottomof the hull, some a little more up the side of the hull. The hull shape will often define the limitations/possibilities of the cradle design, unless your going with movable stands, which will be open to the interpretation of the yard/owner.

 I'm not sure you can generalize the effect of point loading with a basic equation because of this variety of pad placement. A cradle/hull shape configuration with bottom of the hull bias will hold more weight on the pads than a side-of-the-hull pad placement(which should hold very little and are there for balance),

If you've got a 'side-biased' pad placement and the keel is not blocked properly,, the pads holding the hull will have a compression effect that you would not have in the water. If you've ever been on a boat on the hard where the companionway is sticky, it is because the 'side-biased' pads are holding more weight than they should because the keel has been improperly blocked.

 

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On 11/7/2017 at 8:29 AM, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

Quick question for anyone:

Storing a new boat (for me) at a new yard this winter and noticed they didnt block the keel at all.  The keel is ~7ft, thin trunk, big bulb T keel and the cradle is custom built with 4 pads per side each lined up with a stringer.  Boat seems solid as shit in the cradle, so i'm mostly worried about the pressure of the keel hanging all winter.

Is it sketchy to not have the keel supporting any weight?  Is there any reason with this shaped keel not to block it?  Are the guys at the yard lazy morons for not blocking it or is there some actual reason for doing so with a deep T keel?  Am i a moron for not knowing this...

Thanks

DANGER WILL ROBENSON

Boats are designed to have keep hanging 100% of the time through their life

BUT Only in the water, as the lead weighs Less in Water & more so the deeper it is (to a degree)

Add to that the weight loss of Dry Storing your keel bulb as it sits out in the Air

Ideally you want build a little pond/trough around the keep bulb and keep it filled with water over top of bulb

If you have access - use Heavy Water

Nothing worse than a Dry Bulb on yer 1st sail of the season !!!

Yer Welcome in advance 

 

 

But then again that's another reason we live in DAGO

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I wonder how much of current blocking theory is a carry-over from wooden boat days.  Seems for a wooden boat with frames and planking it would make more sense to put the weight of the keel on blocks and have the pads only for stability.  That way the keel would be pushing the framing structure and planking up much the way the water would be when immersed.  Since most all boats are a monoque structure now such blocking wouldn't be as much of an issue?  Just a wild thought...

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5 hours ago, boatcat65 said:

I wonder how much of current blocking theory is a carry-over from wooden boat days.  Seems for a wooden boat with frames and planking it would make more sense to put the weight of the keel on blocks and have the pads only for stability.  That way the keel would be pushing the framing structure and planking up much the way the water would be when immersed.  Since most all boats are a monoque structure now such blocking wouldn't be as much of an issue?  Just a wild thought...

Current blocking analysis isn't really related to wooden boat days.  Often finite element structural analysis is carried out to make sure the structure doesn't get damaged.  I've done such analysis as part of my job,  explicitly computer modeling the stages of the blocking to make sure the hull doesn't get busted.

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

Current blocking analysis isn't really related to wooden boat days.  Often finite element structural analysis is carried out to make sure the structure doesn't get damaged.  I've done such analysis as part of my job,  explicitly computer modeling the stages of the blocking to make sure the hull doesn't get busted.

That reminds me of the scene from Animal House when they are modifying Kent's brother's car.  Belushi takes a tape measure and measures the width and height of a window and then picks up a hammer and smashes it.  Thanks for a chuckle.   

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19 hours ago, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

Again, i've set 1000s of boats and have always put the load on the keel but thought i'd put the question out there in case there was some new thing with hull construction or whatever.  The more i think about it the more i see the potential for damage if even slightly out of balance in load on a T keel.

 

Slightly out of balance on a T keel will put a slightly eccentric load into the keel root. Heeled at 30 degrees, or a 90 degree knockdown, will put a huge eccentric load on the keel root. Once again, on any boat where this was a concern, I would not sail it far from the dock. 

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

That reminds me of the scene from Animal House when they are modifying Kent's brother's car.  Belushi takes a tape measure and measures the width and height of a window and then picks up a hammer and smashes it.  Thanks for a chuckle.   

Glad to provide entertainment.  Not sure of the analogy.  the taxpayers might be a lil disturbed if their billion dollar warship was busted in a poorly done docking job.

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

Glad to provide entertainment.  Not sure of the analogy.  the taxpayers might be a lil disturbed if their billion dollar warship was busted in a poorly done docking job.

I'm continually amazed by what the taxpayers will put up with.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

I'm continually amazed by what the taxpayers will put up with.

politicians ?.......it is so rigged we get to happily choose who is going to fuck us next...and we are divided in half fighting among  ourselves  over which party has the better sensitizing jell...

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On 11/9/2017 at 7:06 PM, ribber said:

Since someone brought up tipping the yard guys, how do you figure it?  wanna know if I'm doing this right...

Anything.  Money, booze, food, even a nice note to the boss saying how happy you are with the way the guys treat your boat.  It never ceases to amaze me ,(1) how much difference a little positive reinforcement does for the yardbones, and (2) how a guy who would think nothing of throwing a 20 at someone who brought him his mediocre dinner doesn't recognize the effort of the guys who keep him safe for which he pays 100 times that amount.

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On November 11, 2017 at 12:28 PM, bgytr said:

Glad to provide entertainment.  Not sure of the analogy.  the taxpayers might be a lil disturbed if their billion dollar warship was busted in a poorly done docking job.

I have no valid excuse, but I thought you were advocating FEA to plant a sailboat on the hard.  Sorry.

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On 11/11/2017 at 12:45 AM, DA-WOODY said:

DANGER WILL ROBENSON

Boats are designed to have keep hanging 100% of the time through their life

BUT Only in the water, as the lead weighs Less in Water & more so the deeper it is (to a degree)

Add to that the weight loss of Dry Storing your keel bulb as it sits out in the Air

Ideally you want build a little pond/trough around the keep bulb and keep it filled with water over top of bulb

If you have access - use Heavy Water

Nothing worse than a Dry Bulb on yer 1st sail of the season !!!

Yer Welcome in advance 

 

 

But then again that's another reason we live in DAGO

 

Does anyone know DA-WOODY in real life? Is he just drunk, or is this more of an aneurysm-type deal?

 

FWIW, compare the cost of a few wooden blocks to a keel replacement job. Even if your boat is built strongly enough to hang on a few pads all winter with the keel unblocked, that's unnecessary stress you're putting on the structure. Not to mention that most boats are able to sit on their keels. All the fishing boats in the yards near us, including ours, have a few sets of blocks under their keels along with stands & pads for the hull.

 

A few cases of beer will go a long way towards convincing the yard guys to block your keel even if they don't want to.

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1 hour ago, Commercial Boater said:

 

Does anyone know DA-WOODY in real life? Is he just drunk, or is this more of an aneurysm-type deal?

 

FWIW, compare the cost of a few wooden blocks to a keel replacement job. Even if your boat is built strongly enough to hang on a few pads all winter with the keel unblocked, that's unnecessary stress you're putting on the structure. Not to mention that most boats are able to sit on their keels. All the fishing boats in the yards near us, including ours, have a few sets of blocks under their keels along with stands & pads for the hull.

 

A few cases of beer will go a long way towards convincing the yard guys to block your keel even if they don't want to.

if it works for a fishing boat it'll work for a sailboat as they are All the same

don't forget to jack up the rudder too

Image result for tuna seiner keel

who wouldn't know that after being here from way back in April

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2 hours ago, Commercial Boater said:

Does anyone know DA-WOODY in real life?

No one who's willing to admit it.

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9 hours ago, Commercial Boater said:

 

Does anyone know DA-WOODY in real life? Is he just drunk, or is this more of an aneurysm-type deal?

 

FWIW, compare the cost of a few wooden blocks to a keel replacement job. Even if your boat is built strongly enough to hang on a few pads all winter with the keel unblocked, that's unnecessary stress you're putting on the structure. Not to mention that most boats are able to sit on their keels. All the fishing boats in the yards near us, including ours, have a few sets of blocks under their keels along with stands & pads for the hull.

 

A few cases of beer will go a long way towards convincing the yard guys to block your keel even if they don't want to.

I don't know if he is real or not ,but have his Christmas present 

WooCoon.jpg

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So...I ended up taking a half dozen of my salvage bags and inflating them around the boat then lashing the mast to 4 light poles.  Don't worry though, i took all the stays off so the only pressure is at the very top...It actually sounds really cool with the rods just swinging around banging into the carbon rig.  I filled all the tanks/even the bilges with water too, so the boat will be really heavy and make the bags stay put (and since the floorboards are a little tight it should stretch the stringers out a bit when the bilges freeze to make everything a little easier to get in/out).  I feel like this setup should closely replicate the physics of the boat being in the water and make sure there's no damage.

I also left a huge shit in the head because some old sailors told me that was good luck...

 

 

In reality, just dropped the boat a bit and put a little weight on the keel dead centerline to root.  Even though i think hull/stringers can take the load and the foam should distribute it a bit, makes me feel more comfortable.  Thanks for the answers to a somewhat stupid question...

On to painting carbon rig with white awlgrip...awful job

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4 minutes ago, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

So...I ended up taking a half dozen of my salvage bags and inflating them around the boat then lashing the mast to 4 light poles.  Don't worry though, i took all the stays off so the only pressure is at the very top...It actually sounds really cool with the rods just swinging around banging into the carbon rig.  I filled all the tanks/even the bilges with water too, so the boat will be really heavy and make the bags stay put (and since the floorboards are a little tight it should stretch the stringers out a bit when the bilges freeze to make everything a little easier to get in/out).  I feel like this setup should closely replicate the physics of the boat being in the water and make sure there's no damage.

I also left a huge shit in the head because some old sailors told me that was good luck...

 

 

In reality, just dropped the boat a bit and put a little weight on the keel dead centerline to root.  Even though i think hull/stringers can take the load and the foam should distribute it a bit, makes me feel more comfortable.  Thanks for the answers to a somewhat stupid question...

On to painting carbon rig with white awlgrip...awful job

post photos

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15 hours ago, Commercial Boater said:

Does anyone know DA-WOODY in real life? Is he just drunk, or is this more of an aneurysm-type deal?

I know him.  He's actually quite rational, but does have a quirky sense of humor.  He imbibes regularly at Fiddler's Green, but I wouldn't call him a drunk.  That's in comparison to other friends, who definitely are drunks, so my outlook may be biased.

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21 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I have no valid excuse, but I thought you were advocating FEA to plant a sailboat on the hard.  Sorry.

Ha!  Ya that is pretty funny. ..  Hunting mosquitos with a bazooka..

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