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JMF

Which budget to consider for a used Ninja foiling Moth

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Hello,

I would be happy to learn about the budget to consider for a used Ninja Moth in "normal" condition. I have not seen so many on Mothmart.

looking a bit at the question, this model seems to be a good cost/performance ratio to discover foiling here in Europe. I'm not in a hurry, and the aim is to have a reasonable reference.

As it is not my intention to race, I would like to cap my budget under 5000-7000€ and don't know if it is realistic or not.

Thanks for your advices.

Best regards,

JM

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Hi!

Agree a well kept ninja is a very good budget choice for a moth.you spend a bit more than a bladerider but you have a much better boat.

For the budget you write you could maybe get a very early ninja. I would think it would be better to spend a couple of grands more (8 or 9ke) to get a ninja with elite foils, which would get you a lot more close to the performance of current boats

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Hi JM, 

From my knowledge there's 2 main versions of the Ninja the original, and second version which came with an upgraded set of "elite" foils around and a longer bow if I remember correctly around (2011). From what I've been told the elite foils greatly improve boat handling and make maneuvers much easier. Some of the later ninjas also came fitted with prototype rocket foils and some even have the production rocket foils. 

As far as I know the controls and rigging we're also continuously upgraded, and some boats came with optional extras such as aero wing bars. Some of the original boats with rigging and controls of the same age, seem to go for around £4000-£5000, with the later boats with the rocket foils and newer rig go for £6000-£7000. Make sure to ask what exact foils are included, as they seem to carry the majority of the value in the package.

I reckon there will be a decline in the price of the older boats in the fleet soon, as the newer exocets ect seem to be getting increasingly faster with more boats becoming uncompetitive. However there always seems to be demand for the older boats as people want to get involved with the class. Hope this makes sense! If you any questions fire away, although I may not be of much more help.

 

Ryan 

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+1

If you really want to go Mothing, then the novelty of a UFO will wear pretty thin pretty quickly if you're sailing near Moths, especially in the 8-10kn sweet spot where a Moth is fantastic fun but a UFO would be a bit of work to get foiling.

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Hi,

Thanks all for your answers. Those are very helpful.

 

Need: I want to experience the "essence" of foiling

 

Background:

  • I'm 50 and a (non foiling) A cat sailor since almost 15 years.
  • A Cat provided to me up to now the best pleasure / burden ratio: high pleasure, little maintenance, easy to setup and go sailing. There is a club fleet and it was the active area fleet in the area up to foiling / non foiling (local ) drama,
  • My personal perspective about the foiling A cat is that we set rules to prevent them to fly. Clever people found ways to foil in this constrained set of rules, and that this does not allow to have a sound flying design at the root => it will be complex, tough and expensive. This is not my way to discover foiling
  • I also sailed laser , wind surf, some small trimarans and bigger  boats,
  • My scope is pleasure is sailing for pleasure and curiosity: how that thing can fly, how it feels, how it works practically,
  • I'm afraid to be in a foiling moth "white area": South of France, near Marseille seems pretty inactive: no club races, no used boats, no test mate.

 

I won't race. My key criteria would be:

  • Well designed and healthy boat,
  • Rig suitable for my 65 kg,
  • As large as possible comfortable/safe wind range to maximize pleasant sailing time => are there differences there between the boats / rigs ?

 

Benefits from a Mach2 / Exocet / Rocket performance increases won't be justified in my case in front of cost increases.

 

I imagine that a Blade Rider could do the job, but I like better the story behind the UK foiling boats, and the superior boat for a bit more money.

 

I have to consider that reselling may be an issue as it seems that there are no (at least in that area) amateur races and strong second hand market for "expert" class and not so competitive boats.

 

Last, I believe I more on the side of the proven and consistent foiling moth package than the UFO. But that's a question of taste. Il also believe that after reading and thinking to it, I discarded the WASP option.

 

JMF

 

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Additional questions:

- is there a best season to buy a Moth ? before / after some events ?

- is there some reference web source to learn how to recognize the different boats versions (which is part of the learning curve and knowing what you buy)?

- shall one wait a lot to see  £4000-£5000 early Ninjas, or £6000-£7000 later boats with the rocket foils and newer rig?

- are there some other adds source than Mothmart to monitor the adds in Europe ? 

- on Mothmart, there is a Manta with Ninja elite foils. Does the package makes sense or is it an unknown combo ? (I found almost no information on the Manta)

- what about the Prowler if a well priced one is advertised ?

- I understand the foreseen decline in the price of the older boats in the fleet, but I'm afraid that it will mainly impact the 15k€ to 10k€ boats than the 7k€-5k€ ones. Am I right ?

Kind regards,

JM

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4 hours ago, JMF said:

Additional questions:

- is there a best season to buy a Moth ? before / after some events ? 

At the worlds, but this normally involved boats which are used to race at the worlds, which is not your target. I Think season has no huge impact

- is there some reference web source to learn how to recognize the different boats versions (which is part of the learning curve and knowing what you buy)?

no

- shall one wait a lot to see  £4000-£5000 early Ninjas, or £6000-£7000 later boats with the rocket foils and newer rig?

I don't know what comes first. Maybe ne ninja with elite are more spread

- are there some other adds source than Mothmart to monitor the adds in Europe ? ù

Facebook pages; moth buy&sell, International moth sailing group, moth class uk group

- on Mothmart, there is a Manta with Ninja elite foils. Does the package makes sense or is it an unknown combo ? (I found almost no information on the Manta)

I don't know much. If it is maguire built it could be a decent built boat.

- what about the Prowler if a well priced one is advertised ?

I sailed a prowler. boats are well built, but ninjas are at least 1 generation better. A prowler to be usable needs a new rudder and an upgraded control system

- I understand the foreseen decline in the price of the older boats in the fleet, but I'm afraid that it will mainly impact the 15k€ to 10k€ boats than the 7k€-5k€ ones. Am I right ?

No idea

Kind regards,

JM

 

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Hi JMF,

I would agree with what Mika is saying there, the UK moth class on Facebook is a great resource and people there are very helpful! If you join someone posted on October 18th looking for feedback regarding buying a boat on a budget, and a number of people gave their advice. The pricing of these boats seems to be all over the place, so if you manage to find a bargain grab it.

Ryan 

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JMF,

I have sailed (briefly) the foiling Moth and at length a well sorted foiling A-Cat (Exploder AD3). The A-Cat is still low down on the development curve compared with the Moth, so that has some downsides, but at the moment at least the board position has been sorted and the foil evolution has slowed a good bit. The biggest downside to the A is its lack of upwind foiling compared with the Moth. The upside is its very stable, IMO pretty easy to foil, and usable in low winds. The moth is trickier to launch (keep this in mind!), and not much fun in non-foiling conditions. I would argue the wind range on the A is larger and it can handle more sea state than the Moth. Again, all tradeoffs, the Moth is a wonderful boat and if you can pick up a good one for the right price than go for it. I also advise you to go sail a properly sorted foiling A as well as a Moth before buying either.

 

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On 16/11/2017 at 10:37 PM, RYANIRL said:

Hi JMF,

I would agree with what Mika is saying there, the UK moth class on Facebook is a great resource and people there are very helpful! If you join someone posted on October 18th looking for feedback regarding buying a boat on a budget, and a number of people gave their advice. The pricing of these boats seems to be all over the place, so if you manage to find a bargain grab it.

Ryan 

Hi, Ryan, sorry for the late reply. I hadn't subscribed to the topic and missed the answer.

As I'm not a native English speaker; I'm not sure what you mean by "The pricing of these boats seems to be all over the place". Is it that you can find boats on a budget in many places (easy), or is it that the price of the boat is distributed all over the price range (from cheap to very expensive) ?

I agree with your previous statement that price of some boats will decline with the push of the Exocet at the top of the fleet, as a similar thing happened in A-Cats here two times, with the happening of the DNA first, and then foiling boats. I just don't know how fast it will propagate...

JMF

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11 hours ago, samc99us said:

JMF,

I have sailed (briefly) the foiling Moth and at length a well sorted foiling A-Cat (Exploder AD3). The A-Cat is still low down on the development curve compared with the Moth, so that has some downsides, but at the moment at least the board position has been sorted and the foil evolution has slowed a good bit. The biggest downside to the A is its lack of upwind foiling compared with the Moth. The upside is its very stable, IMO pretty easy to foil, and usable in low winds. The moth is trickier to launch (keep this in mind!), and not much fun in non-foiling conditions. I would argue the wind range on the A is larger and it can handle more sea state than the Moth. Again, all tradeoffs, the Moth is a wonderful boat and if you can pick up a good one for the right price than go for it. I also advise you to go sail a properly sorted foiling A as well as a Moth before buying either.

 

Hi Samc99us,

I love sailing my A-Cat, especially not foiling. Ease of use and pleasure are both incredible.

You have a point for the Moth launching: this really puzzles the neeby I'm and seems anything but easy. And I can sail my A-Cat all the year round "dry" (just have to put the feets in the water to launch), where Moth will definitively a wet activity, event in low wind conditions.

My position about sailing foiling A-Cat could change once fully sorted out and if class rules against foiling are killed, allowing a free and optimized foiling design.

I'm interested about yout statement about the wind range. I can easily imagine the thing in low winds. I'm not clear about the sailing of the Moth in higher winds. We does the boat starts to be tricky to sail and to request "more expert" skills ? Can the sail be easlily depowered in higher winds ?

(on the A-Cat, I'm comfortable up to 15-16 knts of wind. Above, I start to think twice)

I'm afraid not to have the possibility to try a Moth before buying one :-) Hence the importance to find a boat at the right prioce tag, So I can (easily) resell It if it doesn't fit.

By the way, could it be that you also post on RCGroups about gliders, CNC and so on (as there is a similar ID) ?

Kind regards,

JMF

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Hey JMF,

   I'm no expert Moth sailor, but above 18kts of breeze the Moth is also a handful-you can watch plenty of videos in Garda and especially the Australian Worlds. They don't handle waves particularly well (which is why the class goes for flat water venues). At the speeds the boat is capable of, 30kts+, it definitely requires expert skill and handling to get through sea state. Further, while the Moth is a stable foiling boat, it is nowhere near as stable as the A-Cat in either floating or foiling mode. It requires a great deal of finesse to keep the heel angle correct etc. It is also demanding on the body because you are hiking all day. Finally, my big thing with the moth is every crash has you soaking wet and upside down. When I fall off foils on the A, I don't also nose dive and go swimming. If I get thrown from the boat, over 3/4 of the time the boat stops and I can pull myself back with my bungee system, no capsize involved. I'm not saying the A is a perfect foiling boat or without its pitfalls, but I do think the learning curve on the Moth for a cat sailor is much steeper.

Depowering on the moth involves lots and lots of vang, cunnigham and mast rake, nothing too crazy but its a cambered sail more like a windsurfer rig. I'm sure someone builds a small sail for high breeze.

I would definitely request a moth demo day before buying one, I understand the dilemma you are in but surely it is possible. If that doesn't workout, surely a demo on the Waszp could be arranged? Definitely not the same performance as a Mach 2 or well sorted Ninja etc. but they are still moths and overall sail like a Moth.

And yes, same guy over on rcgroups with my own CNC and glider designs etc.

-Sam

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On 22 November 2017 at 6:32 AM, JMF said:

Hi, Ryan, sorry for the late reply. I hadn't subscribed to the topic and missed the answer.

As I'm not a native English speaker; I'm not sure what you mean by "The pricing of these boats seems to be all over the place". Is it that you can find boats on a budget in many places (easy), or is it that the price of the boat is distributed all over the price range (from cheap to very expensive) ?

I agree with your previous statement that price of some boats will decline with the push of the Exocet at the top of the fleet, as a similar thing happened in A-Cats here two times, with the happening of the DNA first, and then foiling boats. I just don't know how fast it will propagate...

JMF

Hi JMF, I meant that the asking prices seem to vary quite a lot, I've seen early ninjas advertised for less than 4000 GBP and I've also seen the similar boats advertised for 6000 GBP, the value seems to be in the boats around the 10-11K that have the majority of the latest rigging, but are missing a few newer upgrades which seems to drop their price. I hope this is clear if not let me know

Ryan 

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6 hours ago, aardvark_issues said:

Worth bearing in mind there are probably only about 20 Ninjas out in the wild, and probably only half that with the elite foils.

Always good to hear from the builder!

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Humm, not so good news...

This limits the probability to find that entry level well designed Moth I'm looking for. I start to think that, even if the more mature from my perspective,  foiling Moths may not be the easiest class to discover foiling because of:

- price of second hand boats / small number of affordable boats (subjective, I know),

- landing to swim ratio (or crash/capsize).

However, the way they fly capture some part of dream the you really want to experience.

JMF

 

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At some point I considered the idea of home building one, seeing that Aardvark was proposing the molds, and that a lot of spare parts are proposed on sale. But  I stepped back: molds are far, ans sourcing all bits would take a time that I can't aford (or that I prefer have sailing).

By the way, thanks to Aardvark to propose that option !

JMF

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2 hours ago, JMF said:

At some point I considered the idea of home building one, seeing that Aardvark was proposing the molds, and that a lot of spare parts are proposed on sale. But  I stepped back: molds are far, ans sourcing all bits would take a time that I can't aford (or that I prefer have sailing).

By the way, thanks to Aardvark to propose that option !

JMF

I say a wise decision by you, well done and enjoy the sailing :)

Fish

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I went through some more learning about Moths. I had a look at 2 youtube videos from Chris Rashley and Mike Lennon, stating that beginners should look at "newer boats" as they are much more easy to sail than older boats.

If this is true, I would like to know about what are the key improvements to achieve that result. Is it related to:

  • additional controls (ride height, gearing...) ?
  • Hull design ?
  • Foils design (more tolerant ?)
  • Rig design ?

 

I also looked at some crashes, and it looks quite impressive. Are there some accidents ? Is sailing a Moth more dangerous than some other boats ?

 

JMF

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From a ninja elite to current boat, I'd say biggest difference  in ease of sailing are the improvements in the control system for the waves. Not only more controls, but also better contols (better tolerances, higher stiffness of pushrods and flaps, bowsprits, etc).

From an older ninja or even worse, from a bladerider, another huge difference is foil stiffness. old bendy oils make the boat harder and less fun.

Rig and hull are less important IMHO for ease of sailing.

 

If you just want to have fun old boats are still good for going out in normal conditions. though. 

 

 

 

 

 

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The moth crash videos are dramatic and get a good following, but mostly they are from extreme days in big regattas. These days are rare but make the best viewing for many people. Fast boats in smooth water do not look as spetacular.

If you just want to enjoy moth sailing do not go out when its really rough. Even with the best boat and the best control systems and adjustments, you still need some special techniques to master wave sailing. If I knew what they were I could help, but I am hopless in waves and crash a lot.

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Hi, I come back looking for some complementary advice.

I may have found a boat and I'm dicussing with current owner. A Ninja with first generation rocket foils by the way.

The boat can come with an "original" Hyde sail (seems well used) or a Ka MSL 16.3 almost new at an additional price. I'm 65 kg and I'm always cautious of too powerful sails I can't manage.

I would like to learn how those two sails normally compare as of power, depowering /flattning, ease of use (some sails are harder to use than others).

I understand that the sail is not the most critical item to start discovering the activity, but I have to decide about that opportunity now :-)

Happy new year and best whishes for 2018.

Kind regards,

JM

 

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Hi! Don't worry too much. I don't know well the Hyde on that boat, but I guess both can be flattened pretty well by pulling lot of downhaul (I am 65kg as well). 12:1 should be enough purchase for those rigs. Now almost everybody is on 16:1, but that is because latest sails (ex lennon a3M and more, latest north sails) have a lot more power than the ones you are talking about and latest masts are also stiffer.

So it depends on the condition of the hyde, and how much do you pay for the KA. Honestly if the hyde is decent, I would keep the money and, once you learn to properly sail the boat, get a second hand lennon or north . Right now at 65kg I am very happy with a recent lennon (a4m) and downhaul upgraded to 16:1.

Michele

 

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Hi Thanks for the feedback.

The 16.3 is stated to have been used less than 10 times and is 500€. The mast is an Aardvark.

JMF

 

 

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Hi,

Thanks for all your advices and support !

I'm now the owner of a Ninja with Elite main foil, Rocket rudder and bowsprit : GBR 3614 (ex Lola).

The boat is now in south of France in Club Nautique Berrois.

I now have to learn how to use it  :-). This will be a bit more difficult as I will be alone : no fleet here...

I will have to address all warnings that Samc99us raised !

Thanks especially to 17Mika, Ryanirl and Mike and for their advices.

JMF

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Cool! It looks like a good boat! Have fun, and sail with others whenever you can.

I know there are few moths in south france who sail in the Med, contact the freanch class if you did not do it already 

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