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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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THINK ABOUT THIS...
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:

• 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.

• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.

• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.

• 3% are accidental discharge deaths.
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.

• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago

• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore

• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit

• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals.
But what about other deaths each year?

• 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!

• 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.

• 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide).

Now it gets good:

• 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!

• 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If the liberals and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides .............. 

Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions! 

So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple:
Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.
Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs. So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: 

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed."

 

I just got this in the mail. No citations whatsoever. Nutin new here. It's probably total bs.

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America is unique in the 1st world both in the number of guns, the number of gun deaths of all types, and the response to gun deaths by calling for more guns.

2425307100000578-2879650-image-a-69_1418

Gun deaths by country

If, just to make up a random example, tens of thousands of people in Canada were killed per year by nitroglycerine, people threw nitroglycerine bottles into schools and churches, and people killed themselves by banging nitroglycerine bottles on their heads, every other country in the world would think they were batshit crazy to try and solve the problem by increasing the sales of nitroglycerine and reducing the regulations for buying it :rolleyes:

They would also wonder at how Canadians have made owning nitroglycerine practically a religion and feel it sets them above every other nation.

BTW, I was doing a crap job at getting bullets on a 6 inch target from 60 feet or so with a pistol the other day. I think I only got about 50% on at best. I was kind of sad thinking that in my youth, target plinking and hunting were sports and the NRA was about being careful to not be a danger to yourself or others. We now have morphed into a situation where gun owners become gun nuts frothing at the mouth about their guns being needed to keep anyone from taking their gunzzz and having guns at work, at the store, in school, in church, and they probably jack off with their gun in one hand in case they get ambushed.

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38 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

they probably jack off with their gun in one hand in case they get ambushed.

Keep both hands free.

image.png.2fdcace636cb38d9dddc1311444f482c.png

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

America is unique in the 1st world both in the number of guns, the number of gun deaths of all types, and the response to gun deaths by calling for more guns.

2425307100000578-2879650-image-a-69_1418

.

You captured exactly why the left's anti gun propaganda is a complete lie. The dishonesty of the anti gun lobby is clear. 

Capture.thumb.JPG.7bf9d0018411a6efed813ab858951d5c.JPG

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25 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

That graph is GUN suicides, not ALL suicides.

And calculated to create a false impression. Your graph has no value. except deception. Showing gun suicides in Japan without mentioning the fact that Japan has one of the highest TOTAL suicide rates in the  world is the same thing as lying. Your whole argument against guns is based on similar smoke and mirror deceptions especially the lie that taking guns away would fix anything. 

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I don't know why gun suicides should ever be factored in. No gun? Overdose, jump off building, electric cord hanging, walk in front of bus, gas explosion; those people are going down no matter what the tool. Nothing anyone can do to change this appreciatively.

I just posted that email cuz it certainly describes how I feel about the issue. The Confiscators have a bunch of alternate facts but my bottom line is that bad/crazy people will find a way. The Texas awfulness could have been even worse with an IED. Directions are on the net. Or, a stolen 18 wheeler flattening everybody, rental truck, rental truck with explosive load, a gallon of battery acid. This is the new reality.

We're going to have to HTFU.

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1 hour ago, Hillary said:

And calculated to create a false impression. Your graph has no value. except deception.

It responds directly to the OP which states:

Quote

 

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms...

  •  65% of those deaths are by suicide...

 

 

You were a pretty bad troll before you started dressing like Hillary, now you're just embarrassing.

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46 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I don't know why gun suicides should ever be factored in. No gun? Overdose, jump off building, electric cord hanging, walk in front of bus, gas explosion; those people are going down no matter what the tool. Nothing anyone can do to change this appreciatively.

We're going to have to HTFU.

So, here's the deal with suicides.  The fact is that more women ATTEMPT suicides than men.  Yet men are 6x more likely to succeed at completing the act.  That difference is almost entirely accounted for by guns.  Why?  Guns are really good at killing people, particularly killing oneself.   They're very fast and very effective.  It's actually kinda hard to knife yourself to death.  It hurts.  It's actually kinda hard to overdose.  You tend to puke.  Hanging?  Knots slip, ropes break, etc.  Fear of heights can actually overcome the desire to commit suicide.

So, what does that have to do with anything?   From  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

"First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.

Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal."

----------------

That's why I'm personally of the opinion that to buy a gun, you need to sign an affidavit that you are not currently suicidal.  It's amazing what even that single document can do to someone who IS suicidal and how totally irrelevant it would be to gun purchases otherwise.  It's easy, virtually free, and generally helpful to those who actually need the help.  Based on the studies, you're incorrect about changing the behavior.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Blue Crab said:
THINK ABOUT THIS...
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:

• 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.

• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.

• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.

• 3% are accidental discharge deaths.
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.

• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago

• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore

• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit

• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals.
But what about other deaths each year?

• 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!

• 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.

• 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide).

Now it gets good:

• 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!

• 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If the liberals and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total number of gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides .............. 

Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions! 

So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple:
Taking away guns gives control to governments. The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.
Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs. So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: 

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed."

 

I just got this in the mail. No citations whatsoever. Nutin new here. It's probably total bs.

Detroit does not have stricter gun laws. In fact the chief of police encourages citizens to get their CPL and to carry whenever they can.

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8 hours ago, Blue Crab said:
THINK ABOUT THIS...
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925%....

Think about this...

Anyone that can't calculate a percentage is an idiot.

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32 minutes ago, bhyde said:

Think about this...

Anyone that can't calculate a percentage is an idiot.

That too. :lol: 

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2 hours ago, bhyde said:

Think about this...

Anyone that can't calculate a percentage is an idiot.

Awww, c'mon - he was only off by 4 decimal places. That's pretty close, considering the source.

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9 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Awww, c'mon - he was only off by 4 decimal places. That's pretty close, considering the source.

Lies, damned lies, and GOP statistics.

Good thing they're working on the tax plan. 1.5 million, 1.5 trillion, what's the difference, right?

3eea2f0d6c6bead95f67c6ce15206895.jpg

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Pretty sloppy no doubt. It came in the mail. Wot about the takeaway message...(cough, cough) the actual points?

Making an argument that gun deaths are statistically insignificant is a pretty poor argument when the statistics are wrong. Kind of undermines the whole point. Also saying that gun deaths are insignificant when compared to other causes of death is equally uncompelling. Just because malaria kills millions does not mean we stop working on automobile safety or drug OD's. We can do better than that. They all need our attention, and if reasonable actions can be taken to prevent these deaths, then we should have that discussion. How much attention we put in to these efforts depends on our collective will.

The real statistics seem to suggest that not having guns prevents gun deaths (i.e. most other countries), but our culture is different so another solution needs to be found. There is probably a middle ground between an all out ban and having a country awash in a sea of guns.  Having had guns pulled on me a couple times, and having been shot at on at least one occasion, I lean towards more restrictive access to guns, but at the same time, I have no problem with people that enjoy hunting or target shooting or other gun sports. It's part of our culture and history, but claiming guns don't kill that many people compared to other things, as the e-mail seems to do, is just not a reasonable argument IMHO.

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Peer countries? Hardly. Those are our protectorates.

Let's see the stats on Russia, and China, our actual peers. I'm guessing they're very low numbers and that you're OK with that. Me?, not so much.

 

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21 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Keep both hands free.

image.png.2fdcace636cb38d9dddc1311444f482c.png

Hump Stocka

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18 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Here is the takeaway - The USA has vastly higher levels of gun violence than any other developed country AND higher levels of gun suicide.

 

You must live in a REALITY resistant universe. 

Why does the number of GUN suicided matter and more that then number of car exhaust suicides matter or the number pf jumpers while ignoring Total suicide counts. 

Your chart is a lie. Not because it states an incorrect fact but because it intentionally communicates a false impression.

Recently someone from Canada strutted about how BC was better than the US. Except that when you stop lying with deceptive  statistics and add up total suicides, murders and drug deaths you see just how destructive liberal policy is. 

Mr  Kent you trumpet a chart that show how few gun suicides there are in Japan and crow how America is worse than all other 1st world peers. 

Shame on you.

 

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30 minutes ago, bhyde said:

but claiming guns don't kill that many people compared to other things, as the e-mail seems to do, is just not a reasonable argument IMHO

Whether you consider it a "reasonable" argument or not - the statistics in the OP are largely correct.

And the main point that yet again needs repeating because all of the grabberz are deliberately attempting to inflate the numbers - is that the overwhelming majority of "gun deaths" are suicides.  No amount of universal background checking, registration, training, insurance, assault weapon bans, etc are going to change that fact.  But 30,000 sounds like a whole lot better number to argue than 5000.  So that's why the grabberz are dogged in their need to use the bigger number.  But the fact remains that 5000 deaths out of 300 Million people IS insignificant.  

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13 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You think Russia and China need to have higher murder rates? I am not sure I follow???

 

OH hell yeah! That's exactly what I meant!

Had yer coffee yet?

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2 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

OH hell yeah! That's exactly what I meant!

Had yer coffee yet?

Our murder rate is about 1/3 of Russia's and 5 times as high as China.

I don't get the relevance though. Neither one are remotely similar to 1st world countries. Is the iron fisted one party rule in China what you look up to or does the klepto-mafia state in Russia look more like a goal to you? :unsure::unsure:

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6 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Whether you consider it a "reasonable" argument or not - the statistics in the OP are largely correct.

And the main point that yet again needs repeating because all of the grabberz are deliberately attempting to inflate the numbers - is that the overwhelming majority of "gun deaths" are suicides.  No amount of universal background checking, registration, training, insurance, assault weapon bans, etc are going to change that fact.  But 30,000 sounds like a whole lot better number to argue than 5000.  So that's why the grabberz are dogged in their need to use the bigger number.  But the fact remains that 5000 deaths out of 300 Million people IS insignificant.  

You missed the point. Making a comparison to other causes is not a valid argument, not the number of deaths.

What you find insignificant (5K, 30K, 100K, whatever) is your opinion, as it is for everyone else. Have at it.

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KI - My point was that China and Russia are our actual peers on the world stage. The average Joe doesn't have access to weapons like we do. I suspect the gun murder rates are by the governments. As I'm sure you realized as well.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Here is the takeaway - The USA has vastly higher levels of gun violence than any other developed country AND higher levels of gun suicide.

 

And critically - vastly higher levels of gun ownership.

Of course, none of them have anything to do with each other.

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3 hours ago, bhyde said:

Making an argument that gun deaths are statistically insignificant is a pretty poor argument when the statistics are wrong. Kind of undermines the whole point. Also saying that gun deaths are insignificant when compared to other causes of death is equally uncompelling. Just because malaria kills millions does not mean we stop working on automobile safety or drug OD's. We can do better than that. They all need our attention, and if reasonable actions can be taken to prevent these deaths, then we should have that discussion. How much attention we put in to these efforts depends on our collective will.

The real statistics seem to suggest that not having guns prevents gun deaths (i.e. most other countries), but our culture is different so another solution needs to be found. There is probably a middle ground between an all out ban and having a country awash in a sea of guns.  Having had guns pulled on me a couple times, and having been shot at on at least one occasion, I lean towards more restrictive access to guns, but at the same time, I have no problem with people that enjoy hunting or target shooting or other gun sports. It's part of our culture and history, but claiming guns don't kill that many people compared to other things, as the e-mail seems to do, is just not a reasonable argument IMHO.

Stop making so much sense - we're talking about GUNZ ferfuckssake.

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

KI - My point was that China and Russia are our actual peers on the world stage. The average Joe doesn't have access to weapons like we do. I suspect the gun murder rates are by the governments. As I'm sure you realized as well.

You think China and Russia report government executions as murders :unsure: I really doubt that.

If you really think the USA is another version of Russia or China then I can't help you.

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2 hours ago, Hillary said:

Recently someone from Canada strutted about how BC was better than the US. Except that when you stop lying with deceptive  statistics and add up total suicides, murders and drug deaths you see just how destructive liberal policy is.

Christ you are a dishonest cunt.

You bring in bullshit about junkies OD'ing to a gun discussion and then claim it's other people providing false statistics on gun homicide.

Did I say you are a dishonest cunt?

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The best thing about a gun thread is you learn just how fucked up every other non-gun aspect of our world is.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

KI - My point was that China and Russia are our actual peers on the world stage. The average Joe doesn't have access to weapons like we do. I suspect the gun murder rates are by the governments. As I'm sure you realized as well.

Have you spent any time living in either of those countries?

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8 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The murder rate in British Columbia is 1.54 per 100,000. The USA is near 5. How is BC worse??????????? BC doesn't even stand out in CANADA, they are about average.

Disingenuous bastard! You forgot to include deaths from drugs, car accidents, knifings, moose stampedes, bad donuts, heart disease, nature causes, swallowing hockey pucks, watching too much Trailer Park Boys, shopping cart collisions, and Orca attacks that are really aquatic mammal suicides. Hack.

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20 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The murder rate in British Columbia is 1.54 per 100,000. The USA is near 5. How is BC worse??????????? BC doesn't even stand out in CANADA, they are about average.

Lots of people die of other causes here - like Fentanyl and suicide.

I think that was the "point".

It's called deflection and is a primary tactic of dishonest cunts.

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7 minutes ago, bhyde said:

Disingenuous bastard! You forgot to include deaths from drugs, car accidents, knifings, moose stampedes, bad donuts, heart disease, nature causes, swallowing hockey pucks, watching too much Trailer Park Boys, shopping cart collisions, and Orca attacks that are really aquatic mammal suicides. Hack.

You missed drinking Tim Hortons coffee - or was that lumped in with donuts?

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

You missed drinking Tim Hortons coffee - or was that lumped in with donuts?

I think it goes without saying the Timmy Ho donut would kill you long before you had time to wash it down. Ever see the employees at Tim's making those toxic toroids of death? They're wearing gloves for a damn good reason.

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Tim's donuts have a much high survival rate than Krispy Kreme's.

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BC - 30.6 per 100,000 overdose death rate.

USA In 2015, the five states with the highest rates of death due to drug overdose were West Virginia (41.5 per 100,000), New Hampshire (34.3 per 100,000), Kentucky (29.9 per 100,000), Ohio (29.9 per 100,000), and Rhode Island (28.2 per 100,000).

BC isn't exactly good, but we have them beat in a couple of states :(

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Tim's donuts have a much high survival rate than Krispy Kreme's.

i think you'll quickly find the death rate per 1000 from Krispy Kreme's donuts is far lower than Tim's when adjusted for American exponential exceptionalism. This is just common knowledge.

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3 hours ago, bhyde said:

You missed the point. Making a comparison to other causes is not a valid argument, not the number of deaths.

What you find insignificant (5K, 30K, 100K, whatever) is your opinion, as it is for everyone else. Have at it.

I agree with the first part. I was not trying to compare to other types of death. But I’ll he fact remains that gun homicide numbers in the overall numbers of gun deaths ha and even homicide deaths is small compared to the overall population. More people are killed with fists and knives than die from assault rifles. But gunz!!

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When was the last time fists and knives killed over 50 and wounded over 500?

Or killed a couple of dozen at an elementary school?

Or killed a couple of dozen in church?

 

Those comparisons are specious.

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I suspect many see the murders happening to "those people" in "that part of town" and figure that they aren't one of those and don't live over there. Thing is, eventually it spreads into places you DO go.

Guns = solution to your problems = bad outcome.

 

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Personally, I tend to look at guns in the same vein as Alcohol or Distracted Driving.

We know we shouldn't talk on cell phones and drive.  We do anyway because we like it.  About 3500 people per year are killed by distracted driving, approximately 390,000 injured.  That's the price of cell phone freedom (https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/distracted_driving/index.html)

The LA times puts Alcohol deaths at 88,000 per year or about 3x the number of gun deaths.  Again, it's the price we pay for 'enjoying' the freedom to drink (http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-alcohol-related-deaths-years-lost-sxsw-20140313-story.html)

The only difference is that some people 'like' alcohol and others 'like' guns.  Some people don't think you need guns.  I don't think you need alcohol.  But the popular vote wins and the constitution effectively enshrines both rights.

 

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I agree with the first part. I was not trying to compare to other types of death. But I’ll he fact remains that gun homicide numbers in the overall numbers of gun deaths ha and even homicide deaths is small compared to the overall population. More people are killed with fists and knives than die from assault rifles. But gunz!!

So the current number of deaths related to guns, and yes I'm counting suicides, it ok with you? That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. You're threshold is just different than mine. If there were 2 deaths each year from guns, I doubt anyone would care and everyone could walk around enjoying their guns. If there were 4 million, everyone would be shitting their pants and calling for an all out ban. But regardless of the absolute number, what we find acceptable in our culture, we don't get to say that other causes are worst so it's ok. Your analogy is like saying fists kill more people than airplane accidents, so we don't need to look at making planes safer. We need to work on figuring out how to keep people from beating each other to death (social problem) AND prevent planes from auguring into the ground (technical problem). I'm personally not good with the current numbers, but I'm also not good with an all out ban.

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20 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Mass murder by cell phone?

This is a 1 minute google search - so yea, mass murder by cell phone.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/world/europe/bavaria-germany-train-crash.html

"Eleven people died, and 80 were injured, some seriously, in the crash, which occurred on a single-track stretch of railway near Bad Aibling in Bavaria, about 35 miles southeast of Munich. A week later, the state prosecutor Wolfgang Giese said that the dispatcher, identified only as a 39-year-old man, had violated work rules and had most likely caused the crash."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-train-crash/train-engineer-was-texting-just-before-california-crash-idUSN0152835520081002

"The Metrolink commuter train plowed into a Union Pacific freight locomotive on September 12 in Chatsworth, California, killing 25 people and injuring 135 in the worst train accident since 1993."

https://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/texting.asp

"In this case the captioning was accurate. The accompanying photograph captures the aftermath of an accident that took place near Gray Summit, Missouri, on 5 August 2010 which killed the pickup driver and a 15-year-old student and left 38 other people injured. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined the collision was caused by a “manually, cognitively and visually distracted” teenage driver who had sent and received eleven text messages just prior to the crash:"

 

 

 

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OK, I admit that posting that unsearchable email argument was a mild troll, but the thread title was meant to direct attention to the many other things that are killing people. Way more than die of gunshots. The post about the impulsive aspect of suicides was informative for sure but not nearly reason enough for me to stand behind confiscation, even if the criminals and gangs turned their weapons in first.

It wouldn't sell products but if the media  lead off the newz each night with the daily morbidity/mortality stats --the stuff that really kills a whole bigger bunch of people -- we wouldn't be having this conversation. Eg: NOT FAKE NEWZ

Good evening, I'm Blue Crab reporting live with the evening newz. Today some 1,671 Americans died of heart disease. Just like yesterday. And as I say every night, about 610,000 people die of heart disease in the United States every year–that's 1 in every 4 deaths. Heart disease is the leading cause of death for both men and women.
Sadly, another 4,626 nice, normal people were diagnosed with cancer today while 1,646 people flat out died from cancer. Just like yesterday. Many were children. The families are devasted. As always, about 110 Americans were killed in automobile accidents. The number is up slightly from the 103 people dead daily last year. Many of the deceased were children.12 bad guys were shot by LEOs today, while gang shootings claimed another 14.
In sports, one real good team beat a crappy one 51-7. Other scores were 14-3, and 33-0.
 
Perspective gents. It's the new normal. HTFU.
 
 
 

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22 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

OK, I admit that posting that unsearchable email argument was a mild troll, but the thread title was meant to direct attention to the many other things that are killing people. Way more than die of gunshots. The post about the impulsive aspect of suicides was informative for sure but not nearly reason enough for me to stand behind confiscation, even if the criminals and gangs turned their weapons in first.

It wouldn't sell products but if the media  lead off the newz each night with the daily morbidity/mortality stats --the stuff that really kills a whole bigger bunch of people -- we wouldn't be having this conversation. Eg: NOT FAKE NEWZ

Good evening, I'm Blue Crab reporting live with the evening newz. Today some 1,671 Americans died of heart disease. Just like yesterday. And as I say every night, about 610,000 people die of heart disease in the United States every year–that's 1 in every 4 deaths. Heart disease is the leading cause of death for both men and women.
Sadly, another 4,626 nice, normal people were diagnosed with cancer today while 1,646 people flat out died from cancer. Just like yesterday. Many were children. The families are devasted. As always, about 110 Americans were killed in automobile accidents. The number is up slightly from the 103 people dead daily last year. Many of the deceased were children.12 bad guys were shot by LEOs today, while gang shootings claimed another 14.
In sports, one real good team beat a crappy one 51-7. Other scores were 14-3, and 33-0.
 
Perspective gents. It's the new normal. HTFU.
 
 
 

100% of people die, but most prefer to do it when they are 90 years old in bed vs. being gunned down at church or a concert. YMMV

Your chances of being murdered in the USA are around 2-5 times higher than any other 1st world country. That is an absolute fact. If you are OK with that, just say so. Some are, some are not.

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Also, many things are being done to try to reduce all those killers that Crabby listed.

Unlike guns.

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Fuck you, gun wankers:

 

Four people are dead and an armed assailant has been shot and killed by law enforcement officers in a shooting on Tuesday at an elementary school in rural Tehama County, authorities said.

At least seven others were hospitalized following the shootings that occurred around 8 a.m. at the school and several other sites in Rancho Tehama, which is about 115 miles north of Sacramento, a Tehama County sheriff’s deputy said.

Some students were medically evacuated and other, non-injured students were taken “to a safe location,” Tehama County Assistant Sheriff Phil Johnston said.

There were at least 100 officers investigating the shooting at five crime scenes, Johnston said.

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28 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

blue crab = rusty old single cylinder engine

:D Man, I'd like to argue the point but now that I'm on my 3rd pacemaker (21 years and counting), I just have to face that fact.

 

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Got electronic ignition upgrade apparently :)

Oh yeah. The new one is really high tech. $18K.

Frankly, at my age, I dunno if it was all that good of an investment in me by the good 'ol US of A. Particularly given the way I voted last time.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I agree with the first part. I was not trying to compare to other types of death. But I’ll he fact remains that gun homicide numbers in the overall numbers of gun deaths ha and even homicide deaths is small compared to the overall population. More people are killed with fists and knives than die from assault rifles. But gunz!!

More people are killed by "generic weapons A & B", so we should ignore "generic weapon C" because "specialised subset of generic weapon C" isn't as used as often.

"But gunz" comes from the fact "gunz" are the weapon used in 69% of homicides in the USA. So not only outnumbering "fists and knives", but outnumbering all other weapons used to commit homicide in total.

Stick to "Fuck you, Second Amendment" Princess. It's the only argument you're good at.

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3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

This is a 1 minute google search - so yea, mass murder by cell phone.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/world/europe/bavaria-germany-train-crash.html

"Eleven people died, and 80 were injured, some seriously, in the crash, which occurred on a single-track stretch of railway near Bad Aibling in Bavaria, about 35 miles southeast of Munich. A week later, the state prosecutor Wolfgang Giese said that the dispatcher, identified only as a 39-year-old man, had violated work rules and had most likely caused the crash."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-train-crash/train-engineer-was-texting-just-before-california-crash-idUSN0152835520081002

"The Metrolink commuter train plowed into a Union Pacific freight locomotive on September 12 in Chatsworth, California, killing 25 people and injuring 135 in the worst train accident since 1993."

https://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/texting.asp

"In this case the captioning was accurate. The accompanying photograph captures the aftermath of an accident that took place near Gray Summit, Missouri, on 5 August 2010 which killed the pickup driver and a 15-year-old student and left 38 other people injured. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined the collision was caused by a “manually, cognitively and visually distracted” teenage driver who had sent and received eleven text messages just prior to the crash:"

Murder requires intent. I don't think any of those examples had the "cell phone user" intending to kill people.

Yeah, I know, it sucks when someone says "mass murder" and means "mass murder" not "mass manslaughter", but that's where we're at ;)

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7 hours ago, bhyde said:

Making an argument that gun deaths are statistically insignificant is a pretty poor argument when the statistics are wrong. Kind of undermines the whole point. Also saying that gun deaths are insignificant when compared to other causes of death is equally uncompelling. Just because malaria kills millions does not mean we stop working on automobile safety or drug OD's. We can do better than that. They all need our attention, and if reasonable actions can be taken to prevent these deaths, then we should have that discussion. How much attention we put in to these efforts depends on our collective will.

The real statistics seem to suggest that not having guns prevents gun deaths (i.e. most other countries), but our culture is different so another solution needs to be found. There is probably a middle ground between an all out ban and having a country awash in a sea of guns.  Having had guns pulled on me a couple times, and having been shot at on at least one occasion, I lean towards more restrictive access to guns, but at the same time, I have no problem with people that enjoy hunting or target shooting or other gun sports. It's part of our culture and history, but claiming guns don't kill that many people compared to other things, as the e-mail seems to do, is just not a reasonable argument IMHO.

Do you agree life is not risk free? Every activity extracts a human cost. Boating for instance. There are about 700 fatalities on the water.

Other than public service announcements I don't see any great push to eliminate this risk. Pleasure Boating is a sport, a recreational activity. No other purpose. As a society we in effect are saying 700 deaths and the larger number of non fatal accidents are an acceptable cost. 

Gun are also a recreational activity but they have utility as defensive weapons, a hedge against despot rule, investment and of course hunting/providing. 

There are approximately 13 million boat registrations in America vs about 130 million gun owners; one tenth and many.

There are 10,000 non suicide firearm deaths. This is somewhat higher than the 7,000 expected  deaths if you scale  the number of boat owners but considerably less than for alcohol related deaths.

So why are some death counts tolerated for the sake of recreation but others are not? 

Surprise me by being honest for once and  admit, because it is useful politically. Gun ownership mirrors the political divide quite well and gun deaths make good TV.  Guns are the Perfect Political Football.. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Hillary said:

 

Mechanically speaking, it actually is possible for your washing machine to “eat” an errant sock. According to the Whirlpool Institute of Home Science, both top-loading and front-loading washers are capable of allowing a sock to exit the drum and get trapped in areas not normally visible or accessible to the user.

 

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3 hours ago, Hillary said:

Do you agree life is not risk free? Every activity extracts a human cost. Boating for instance. There are about 700 fatalities on the water.

Other than public service announcements I don't see any great push to eliminate this risk. Pleasure Boating is a sport, a recreational activity. No other purpose. As a society we in effect are saying 700 deaths and the larger number of non fatal accidents are an acceptable cost. 

Gun are also a recreational activity but they have utility as defensive weapons, a hedge against despot rule, investment and of course hunting/providing. 

There are approximately 13 million boat registrations in America vs about 130 million gun owners; one tenth and many.

There are 10,000 non suicide firearm deaths. This is somewhat higher than the 7,000 expected  deaths if you scale  the number of boat owners but considerably less than for alcohol related deaths.

So why are some death counts tolerated for the sake of recreation but others are not? 

Surprise me by being honest for once and  admit, because it is useful politically. Gun ownership mirrors the political divide quite well and gun deaths make good TV.  Guns are the Perfect Political Football.. 

 

 

I have a boat and a gun. Only one of them can kill a bunch of people in a church, I'll leave you to guess which one. Don't conflate MURDER and ACCIDENTS. Boating accidents = hunting accidents. Taking someone out on a boat, tying a weight to them, and throwing them overboard is murder like shooting someone is murder.

Also note the idea that nothing is done about boat, airplane, or any other kind of fatalities is flat out WRONG. When I was 10 years old nothing but my parents stopped me from cruising the river in a boat with 600 HP. Now.........not so much for 10 year olds or anyone born after 1972 or so.

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4 hours ago, Hillary said:

Do you agree life is not risk free? Every activity extracts a human cost. Boating for instance. There are about 700 fatalities on the water.

Other than public service announcements I don't see any great push to eliminate this risk. Pleasure Boating is a sport, a recreational activity. No other purpose. As a society we in effect are saying 700 deaths and the larger number of non fatal accidents are an acceptable cost. 

Gun are also a recreational activity but they have utility as defensive weapons, a hedge against despot rule, investment and of course hunting/providing. 

There are approximately 13 million boat registrations in America vs about 130 million gun owners; one tenth and many.

There are 10,000 non suicide firearm deaths. This is somewhat higher than the 7,000 expected  deaths if you scale  the number of boat owners but considerably less than for alcohol related deaths.

So why are some death counts tolerated for the sake of recreation but others are not? 

Surprise me by being honest for once and  admit, because it is useful politically. Gun ownership mirrors the political divide quite well and gun deaths make good TV.  Guns are the Perfect Political Football.. 

 

 

This is a stupid argument, but what the hell.

cause if I kill someone Sailing it will be me or my kids, and not a classroom of kindergarteners?

what do I win?

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8 hours ago, bhyde said:

So the current number of deaths related to guns, and yes I'm counting suicides, it ok with you? That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. You're threshold is just different than mine. If there were 2 deaths each year from guns, I doubt anyone would care and everyone could walk around enjoying their guns. If there were 4 million, everyone would be shitting their pants and calling for an all out ban. But regardless of the absolute number, what we find acceptable in our culture, we don't get to say that other causes are worst so it's ok. Your analogy is like saying fists kill more people than airplane accidents, so we don't need to look at making planes safer. We need to work on figuring out how to keep people from beating each other to death (social problem) AND prevent planes from auguring into the ground (technical problem). I'm personally not good with the current numbers, but I'm also not good with an all out ban.

First of all, suicides do NOT belong in this discussion.  Self-murder is a whole different animal than murdering others.  If you self-murder with a gun, are you any more dead than if you self-murder with a rope or a razor blade or a bottle of pills?  

And no, I'm not comfortable with 5000 murders by gun anymore than I am good with 3500 people being killed by cell phone.  But I don't hear anyone calling for a cell phone ban or cell phone registration or cell phone background checks.

But the fact remains that the total numbers of gun murder are still in the very small range statistically compared to the overall population.  Furthermore, almost three times as many people are killed every year by fists and feet than by rifles of ALL types.  Does it really matter if they are killed all at once or spread out over the course of a year??  Are the victims of fists any less dead?  

But back to your point above.... no I am not comfortable with 5K or 10K deaths from murders using guns anymore than I am with people who die by Drunk driving or cell phone driving.  But I think the SOLution is similar to cell phone and drunk driving..... awareness, education, shaming, draconian enforcement of the laws, tougher sentences, etc.  We didn't ban booze and cars in the 70s and 80s at the height of the DUI deaths peak.  We addressed is as a societal problem to change behavior.  We made it no longer "cool" or acceptable to drink and drive.  We equally need to make it no longer "cool" or acceptable to kill a bunch of people as a way of lashing out at society for being an unknown loser.  Maybe if we started publicly shaming and ridiculing these shitbags in the press and social media..... the next loser sitting in his/her basement contemplating shooting up a church or movie theater will think twice and just kill themselves first instead rather than going through that public shaming.  

 

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5 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

We do. That's kind of the point.

"We" do?  Who is this "We" shit???  I thought you lived in your gun-free douchetopia.  Please do not speak for my country and I will not speak for yours.  

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OP (minus the bullshit email that gets so much wrong it's not worth itemising): Why the focus on gunz?

Answer (minus the politics and personal jibes PA is known for): Because 69% of all murders in the US are carried out using them.

 

When they're not the singular means by which the vast majority of murders are carried out, then they'll lose focus.

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16 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

"We" do?  Who is this "We" shit???  I thought you lived in your gun-free douchetopia.  Please do not speak for my country and I will not speak for yours.  

Who said anything about speaking for your country, Princess? In case you missed it, the conversation is international in it's participants. Don't like that, go find yourself a yankee exclusive forum to piss & moan on.

 

 Take a panadol, get yourself a hot water bottle, and go take a nap. We know PMS takes it out of you, but it's no excuse for being a fucking moron.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

First of all, suicides do NOT belong in this discussion.  Self-murder is a whole different animal than murdering others.  If you self-murder with a gun, are you any more dead than if you self-murder with a rope or a razor blade or a bottle of pills?  

The relevant point is that you are assuming that those 30,000 people will still be dying, but by other means, if they have no access with a gun. This is not what is observed in practice.

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1 hour ago, Battlecheese said:

The relevant point is that you are assuming that those 30,000 people will still be dying, but by other means, if they have no access with a gun. This is not what is observed in practice.

 

Hanging has become the most common method for suicide in Australia, the gun grabbers never mention this fact when they cherry pick a reduction with firearm suicides.

Quote

METHOD OF SUICIDE

In 2013, the most frequent method of suicide was hanging, strangulation and suffocation (X70), a method used in more than half (55.2%) of all suicide deaths

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/3303.0~2013~Main Features~Method of Suicide~10011

 

Quote

Trends in hanging and firearm suicide rates in Australia: substitution of method?

This study examined the increase in the rate of suicide by hanging and an apparently simultaneous decrease in the rate of suicide by firearm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416

 

The gun grabbers think they have achieved something by quoting a reduction in firearm suicides in Australia since our 1996 gun laws, since they never mention the simultaneous increase with hanging suicides it's clear they don't give a fuck about those who hang themselves.

Suicide should be treated as a separate issue it makes no difference what method they use.

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10 hours ago, bhyde said:

Mechanically speaking, it actually is possible for your washing machine to “eat” an errant sock. According to the Whirlpool Institute of Home Science, both top-loading and front-loading washers are capable of allowing a sock to exit the drum and get trapped in areas not normally visible or accessible to the user.

 

No answer huh?

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20 hours ago, bhyde said:

Making an argument that gun deaths are statistically insignificant is a pretty poor argument when the statistics are wrong. Kind of undermines the whole point. Also saying that gun deaths are insignificant when compared to other causes of death is equally uncompelling. Just because malaria kills millions does not mean we stop working on automobile safety or drug OD's. We can do better than that. They all need our attention, and if reasonable actions can be taken to prevent these deaths, then we should have that discussion. How much attention we put in to these efforts depends on our collective will.

The real statistics seem to suggest that not having guns prevents gun deaths (i.e. most other countries), but our culture is different so another solution needs to be found. There is probably a middle ground between an all out ban and having a country awash in a sea of guns.  Having had guns pulled on me a couple times, and having been shot at on at least one occasion, I lean towards more restrictive access to guns, but at the same time, I have no problem with people that enjoy hunting or target shooting or other gun sports. It's part of our culture and history, but claiming guns don't kill that many people compared to other things, as the e-mail seems to do, is just not a reasonable argument IMHO.

How about claiming that bump stocks really don't contribute in any meaningful way to our suicides?

Am I wrong in making that claim? Or in calling BS on the use of suicides as a reason to ban bump stocks?

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have a boat and a gun.

Do you agree with badlat that your gun should be confiscated upon your death? That ours should be the last generation to have the freedom you do?

Do you agree with grabberz that it's a nuisance, not property, so no compensation is required?

Would you sign up for such a confiscation program or be Uncooperative? What should be done with Uncooperative types?

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7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have a boat and a gun. Only one of them can kill a bunch of people in a church, I'll leave you to guess which one. Don't conflate MURDER and ACCIDENTS. Boating accidents = hunting accidents. Taking someone out on a boat, tying a weight to them, and throwing them overboard is murder like shooting someone is murder.

Also note the idea that nothing is done about boat, airplane, or any other kind of fatalities is flat out WRONG. When I was 10 years old nothing but my parents stopped me from cruising the river in a boat with 600 HP. Now.........not so much for 10 year olds or anyone born after 1972 or so.

The two activities have similar human costs. Boating  death rates never lead the national news for weeks on end. Boating is almost exclusively recreational. Guns are largely recreational but they also have our  legitimate uses. We accept with only token fanfare that if we want to have pools or bicycles a certain death rate is reasonable. 

You single out Gun deaths for a hugely disproportionate response . You do it because of where you lie on the political landscape. Logic would lead a rational person to concentrate such attention on the most lethal activities first or at least with some degree of proportionality. 

Somthing you are unable or unwilling to do. 

As a completely side question. What impact do you think it would have on gun crimes instead of hating guns and gun owners, society and the media turned its anger toward Drug and Alcohol owners. About half of the violent crime is committed while or after consuming alcohol and or drugs. Assaults, domestic violence, rape, child abuse, neglect, negligent homicide, industrial accidents etc are all strongly associated with addictions. A further percentage is committed to facilitate an alcohol or drug dependency. 

You want to make a real human impact not just a political one? Start hating on drug and alcohol users. Make them the pariah  of polite society. 

Just saying you can care about politics and winning elections or you can actually care about improving the human condition. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

 

Hanging has become the most common method for suicide in Australia, the gun grabbers never mention this fact when they cherry pick a reduction with firearm suicides.

 

 

The gun grabbers think they have achieved something by quoting a reduction in firearm suicides in Australia since our 1996 gun laws, since they never mention the simultaneous increase with hanging suicides it's clear they don't give a fuck about those who hang themselves.

Suicide should be treated as a separate issue it makes no difference what method they use.

Sticking with your own reference source, consider a later paper (2010, rather than the dusty 2003 one you found) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20402605

Quote

RESULTS:

There was a decline in rates of shooting, gassing, poisoning and drowning in males and a decline in shooting, gassing, jumping from a height and drowning among females, but an increase in hanging by both males and females in the decade 1998-2007 when the compared to 1988-1997. There was significant variation in the rates of and trends in methods of suicide between the states and territories of Australia between 1988-1997 and 1998-2007.

CONCLUSIONS:

The decline in rates of suicide in most parts of Australia coincides with a reduction in the availability of lethal methods. Consideration should be given to further measures to limit the availability of lethal methods of suicide.

 

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Do you agree with badlat that your gun should be confiscated upon your death? That ours should be the last generation to have the freedom you do?

Do you agree with grabberz that it's a nuisance, not property, so no compensation is required?

Would you sign up for such a confiscation program or be Uncooperative? What should be done with Uncooperative types?

I have never advocated for eliminating all private ownership of all guns. Believe it or not, there is a middle ground between no guns for anyone and all guns for everyone ;)

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1 hour ago, Hillary said:

The two activities have similar human costs. Boating  death rates never lead the national news for weeks on end. Boating is almost exclusively recreational. Guns are largely recreational but they also have our  legitimate uses. We accept with only token fanfare that if we want to have pools or bicycles a certain death rate is reasonable. 

You single out Gun deaths for a hugely disproportionate response . You do it because of where you lie on the political landscape. Logic would lead a rational person to concentrate such attention on the most lethal activities first or at least with some degree of proportionality. 

Somthing you are unable or unwilling to do. 

As a completely side question. What impact do you think it would have on gun crimes instead of hating guns and gun owners, society and the media turned its anger toward Drug and Alcohol owners. About half of the violent crime is committed while or after consuming alcohol and or drugs. Assaults, domestic violence, rape, child abuse, neglect, negligent homicide, industrial accidents etc are all strongly associated with addictions. A further percentage is committed to facilitate an alcohol or drug dependency. 

You want to make a real human impact not just a political one? Start hating on drug and alcohol users. Make them the pariah  of polite society. 

Just saying you can care about politics and winning elections or you can actually care about improving the human condition. 

 

Anything else the NRA sent your way?

Car accidents kill vastly more people than airplane accidents, say 30,000 vs. 600 or so. I think it only logical we get rid of the FAA and eliminate the pilot's license requirement and put the money where the problem is.

Also note boats and airplanes typically are used to murder people in the 0 to single digit numbers per year. You do get the difference between falling off a cliff and getting pushed, right?

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On 11/13/2017 at 9:46 AM, Blue Crab said:
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100.

Golly, with "actual" numbers of gun violence so ridiculously low, why do all those Americans keep guns for protection? It's almost as if their family is more endangered by the "protection gun" than from gun crime huh?

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