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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Tyson0317

J/35 Another Rule 18 Clarification

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Well, here is another video. This time, I felt in the right. No protest came.

I was a jackass in the wrong? Or is this an example of more sailors not understanding Rule 18?

Click here for the Video

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The question is, was there an inside overlap established at the 3 boat length circle.  At 6 knots you move about 10 feet per second.  The other boat appears longer than 35 and since they hit the circle first it is their 3 boat lengths not yours. Doing the math you would have had to have an overlap very early in the video.  No real way to tell given the camera angle and parallax if there was an overlap from the video alone.   If there was, you had rights for room to round the mark on the inside.  If not, then you fouled them.  Burdon of proof would be on you to prove there was an overlap as the presumption in a dispute is that there was not,

How big was the other boat? What was your speed? what would you estimate their speed?  Wind speed? any current?    Those are the questions I would be asking as  PC.

 

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3 hours ago, lartaunt said:

The question is, was there an inside overlap established at the 3 boat length circle.  At 6 knots you move about 10 feet per second.  The other boat appears longer than 35 and since they hit the circle first it is their 3 boat lengths not yours. Doing the math you would have had to have an overlap very early in the video.  No real way to tell given the camera angle and parallax if there was an overlap from the video alone.   If there was, you had rights for room to round the mark on the inside.  If not, then you fouled them.  Burdon of proof would be on you to prove there was an overlap as the presumption in a dispute is that there was not,

How big was the other boat? What was your speed? what would you estimate their speed?  Wind speed? any current?    Those are the questions I would be asking as  PC.

 

yeah, I'm not seeing an overlap there ....

 

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My guess you would have to establish an overlap before you were thirty seconds from rounding the mark at that speed, else you were clear astern and would likely lose the protest.

 

Reagrdless of speed, 3 hull lengths of a 45 foot boot is approx 150 feet from the mark you have to be clearly overlapped. Hard to tell from video but doesn't look even close  to me.

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The real question to me in this case is why even risk a protest by going inside?  It's not like you gybed around the mark and went off back downwind.  You tacked onto starboard and sailed off upwind.  From a risk/reward perspective, you could have easily ducked him, tacked on his quarter and sailed right over and by him with no risk of being tossed, and little lost time or speed.

Didn't look like you had overlap until one boat length or so, but as other's have said, hard to tell in the video...

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I wish to understand this. 

 

I thought that the distance rule was not based on how far we were physically from one another, but rather on a circle principal with it's center at the mark. Two boats coming at the mark from different directions are still covered by the rule based on the circle around the mark.

Clearly, our speeds were not more than 1kt apart. I'm guessing they are a ~39-42ft boat; we are 35. Even if we are going a full knot faster, that means ~1.5ft per sec closing rate. Given that we arrived at the mark simultaneously, does that not mean that overlap is clearly established?

Another way to look at this:

Assuming they are 40ft loa, they enter the 3 length zone 120ft from the mark and reach the mark in approx 13sec (@6kt). Given that we were going 1kt faster, in 13sec we would cover less than 20 additional feet. This means that we were effectively bow to beam with them and clearly 3 lengths from their circle when they were within 3 lengths of the mark. Wrong?

 

Crash, point taken. But a starboard boat could also yeild to a port boat anytime. But people get quite competitive with that stuff. I want to learn the rules.

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"and clearly 3 lengths from their circle when they were within 3 lengths of the mark. Wrong?"

huh?

that ain't right.

you have to be overlapped when they enter the circle.

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Point taken. I'll read up on this some more and make good with those guys.

 

Sarcoma, what happened last weekend?? Are you talking about the boat that never uttered the word "starboard" and while drifting at less than 1kt and passing solid 10 seconds behind us, tried to say that they had to alter course? We could have pointed higher if an issue arose; we communicated with them throughout the very slow crossing and they literally said nothing until after we crossed.

I welcomed a protest challenge on that count, but after talking smack, and flying a red flag well in our wake, they never followed up with it. Their self-chosen delay, if any, amounted to no more than 2 seconds.

Talking shit now is quite lame.

More on the point of last weekend: We had a boat fail to yeild to our starboard calls in 20kt of wind, as we were changing head sails and had our lazy sheet unrigged. We were forced to tack to avoid imminent collision without a sheet rigged and our #3 half way up. The tack caused our #3 to jump out of the forestay track and 10+ min to un-fuck the whole mess while our primary competition flew right past us. 

The guys apologized. It was a shitty situation - they mistook our waves and yells as waiving them through... We didn't protest - it was an honest mistake.

Guys trying to air laundry here when they clearly didn't feel they had a case, is very not cool.

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1 hour ago, Expat Canuck said:

You don't have to hail "starboard" to have rights.

That's true. But when you are moving at 1kt and pass a full 10sec behind the boat that "cut you off", you have a limited amount of bitching rights.

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I completely agree that learning exactly what the rules say and mean, and how to put them into practice is a good pursuit.  We should all probably do more of that.  But you don't win sailboat races by doing everything right or perfect.  No one sails a perfect race.  You win sailboat races by making the fewest mistakes.  Hence the risk/reward perspective here.  If its close, and he does protest, and you lose, then the cost of that is significant.  The cost of ducking him, and then tacking given your boat speed advantage, and pointing advantage would have been minimal.  Therefore I see little logic or reason to take the big risk of trying to go inside in this situation.

Also in this case, there is only one circle.  Its centered on the Mark, and in this case is three of his boat lengths in diameter.  So if he is 40 feet long, you need to be overlapped when he touches the outside of the circle which is 120ft in diameter.  If not overlapped when he touches, then you have to give him room regardless of if overlap is established later.  You sure looked like you we going a couple knots faster than him, and didn't have any overlap when he touched the circle.

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26 minutes ago, Sarcoma said:

More talking about the second incident. It very much appeared that you were waving us across our bow...which would make sense if you were doing a headsail change on stbd tack. To suddenly see a change of heart when we were a boat-length apart was rather unsettling...

Waving someone across and then calling starboard when the boats are close enough to almost cause a collision is more than not cool, It's a rule 2 violation. 

So pretty sure a specific incident between two boats and the people on them are better solved by going off and having a beer and having this discussion, rather than having it on a public forum....

 

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30 minutes ago, Crash said:

So pretty sure a specific incident between two boats and the people on them are better solved by going off and having a beer and having this discussion, rather than having it on a public forum....

 

You're not wrong. I'm sure there wasn't any mal intent on Tyson's part, I was just reminded of the incident seeing this post. 

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For the record, by the time we came within hailing range, I was on the bow correcting an error in the set. Two of my four crew were sea-sick. Another was on his third ever day of sailing; the fourth is barely over 100lb and not bow-trained. Everyone aboard I heard was yelling "Starboard”, myself included. The guy I left the helm to did say that that at one point he waved at you guys to get out of the way, which was clearly misunderstood. 

 

It was an honest mistake, which is why no protest was made. Beers always welcome.

For the record, I looked for the guys from the first incident at the party to beer-settle any protest issues. We were very conspicuously present the entire time. I could not find them.

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On 11/13/2017 at 11:38 PM, Tyson0317 said:

Well, here is another video. This time, I felt in the right. No protest came.

I was a jackass in the wrong? Or is this an example of more sailors not understanding Rule 18?

Click here for the Video

You are out. PERIOD.
Sea sock crew or not. You need to withdraw.

On 11/15/2017 at 6:51 PM, Bump-n-Grind said:

yeah, I'm not seeing an overlap there ....

 

I agree, that Tyson was reaching into the mark and had no rights what so ever..
You cannot over stand the mark and reach in expecting room.

Read the rules.

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Maybe I am being thick here, but I want to understand this...

Two boats of roughly the same size (they are about 5ft longer); traveling the same speed (we were going maybe 1kt faster), reach the mark at about the same time (we were actually there a bit before them). By what calculus are you guys saying that we did not have overlap when 120ft from the mark? Isn't overlap circular in this case? As in we don't actually have to be rail to rail?

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1 hour ago, Tyson0317 said:

Maybe I am being thick here, but I want to understand this...

Two boats of roughly the same size (they are about 5ft longer); traveling the same speed (we were going maybe 1kt faster), reach the mark at about the same time (we were actually there a bit before them). By what calculus are you guys saying that we did not have overlap when 120ft from the mark? Isn't overlap circular in this case? As in we don't actually have to be rail to rail?

 

Overlap is an infinite line at their transom, perpendicular to the centerline of their boat. If any part of your boat or its equipment in normal position is ahead of that line, you have an overlap.

It's a horrible angle to tell, but it sure doesn't look like an overlap in the video. It isn't just about how fast you were going relative to them, but the relative angles and geometry. You were reaching and sailing much lower than them, so you were approaching the overlap line on an angle.

What you hailed to them makes no sense; it doesn't matter how close you were to them. When you are going into a situation like this, you need to be very aware of when an overlap is obtained or broken. It is not in the rules that you have to hail or say anything to the other boat, but communications about an overlap (or lack of an overlap) could let you know when there might be doubt about whether one exists. When there is reasonable doubt about whether an overlap is gained or broken, it is presumed to have not.

Anyways, I said it was a stupid move because, given the course after the mark, it's a no-brainer in that situation to take his transom and the high lane.

 

 

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OK, here you go...

Yes, the zone is a circle, 

The other boat is the Perry 42 "Good as Gold".  Looks to me like they were travelling at 7.3'/sec  (a bit under 5 knots, as evidenced by very little bow wave).  They reached the mark at 1:11 in the video-and no you didn't reach the mark before them, look at your video at 1:11.  The overlap question is answered when their bow is 42 x 3 = 126' from the mark, which would have taken 126/7.3=17.2 seconds.  Dial your video back 17 seconds from 1:11, to 0:54.  Do you have an overlap?  I don't  think so, I don't see an overlap until about 1:03.

If someone with OD racing experience had been driving the Perry, they would have driven higher starting maybe 10 length from the mark, so that at 3 lengths they could have cracked off directly on your line thus shutting the door to any overlap question and also giving you bad air.

To Meat Wad's comment above and just for clarification, this wasn't a windward leg.  It was a close reach leg of a distance race.  Lot's of folks were approaching the mark lower than rhumb line because they had sailed high to avoid bad air earlier in the leg.

 

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Why do you figure that a 42ft boat would be doing only 5kt in those wind conditions? Either way, our speeds could not have been more than 1kt apart.

To cross 126ft at (let's assume 5kt); they would be traveling about 7.8ft/sec... 16.1 seconds. Assume we were going a full knot faster (a stretch!) we would be going at 9.36ft/sec - meaning that 16.1 seconds from the mark we would be 150.696 ft from the mark. 150-126=24. We would have been bow to beam. The circle is hard to judge from the fish-eye lens. But the math above holds. 

I do have to admit - I erroneously thought at the time that we had to be within some lengths of them when they were 3 lengths from the mark; and hence my statement on the video. The old (and quite experienced) guy that I used to crew under some years back, used that as his interpretation of the rules many, many times around me. It got a bit ingrained I guess. However, re-reading the rules and now seeing clearly that "overlap" must be demonstrated at 3 lengths from the mark and the math above, I do not see how anyone can say that we failed to meet that.

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You cant count time backwards from the mark and compare speeds to decide. When he hits the three boat length circle, you have to be clearly overlapped at that point.

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8 hours ago, Tyson0317 said:

Why do you figure that a 42ft boat would be doing only 5kt in those wind conditions? Either way, our speeds could not have been more than 1kt apart.

To cross 126ft at (let's assume 5kt); they would be traveling about 7.8ft/sec... 16.1 seconds. Assume we were going a full knot faster (a stretch!) we would be going at 9.36ft/sec - meaning that 16.1 seconds from the mark we would be 150.696 ft from the mark. 150-126=24. We would have been bow to beam. The circle is hard to judge from the fish-eye lens. But the math above holds. 

I do have to admit - I erroneously thought at the time that we had to be within some lengths of them when they were 3 lengths from the mark; and hence my statement on the video. The old (and quite experienced) guy that I used to crew under some years back, used that as his interpretation of the rules many, many times around me. It got a bit ingrained I guess. However, re-reading the rules and now seeing clearly that "overlap" must be demonstrated at 3 lengths from the mark and the math above, I do not see how anyone can say that we failed to meet that.

In this case, Overlap is not established when YOU hit the three boat length circle. Overlap is established when he hits the zone. 

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8 hours ago, Tyson0317 said:

Why do you figure that a 42ft boat would be doing only 5kt in those wind conditions?

I already answered that, re-read comment about lack of bow wave.

To make it simple, if a person standing at your bow can see the back edge of the horizontal portion of the radar arch you don't have an overlap.  I'm using the radar arch for reference because the transom is slightly curved on Good as Gold.  On boats with flat transoms that's a good reference.  You tell us when in the video you believe someone standing at your bow could no longer see back edge of the arch.

In the meantime, those of us that watched the video are ALL making a judgment that an overlap didn't happen until very close to the mark.

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11 hours ago, Tyson0317 said:

Why do you figure that a 42ft boat would be doing only 5kt in those wind conditions? Either way, our speeds could not have been more than 1kt apart.

Its hard to estimate speed just based on your video, but given how quickly you overhaul him, esp as you are sailing a longer course, tells me you speed difference is closer to 2 kts, maybe more.  The breeze seems on the moderate to light side.  He is significantly heavier that you, has white sails that are cruising cut, and is trying to sail almost close hauled.  You have a lighter boat (you only displace 60% of what he does), have laminate sails (and almost 84% of his sail area),  a deck sweeper genoa, and are cracked off.  If the best you can do under those conditions is 1 kt faster....well...

Its ok that you made the wrong call...it happens, we all make bad calls sometimes.  Learn from it.  But stop trying to defend what was both a bad move (going inside to begin with) and then viewing the circumstances (his speed vs. yours etc) so they justify that bad call.  Like I said, It's ok to be wrong.  It approaches not ok, when you stubbornly defend being wrong....

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Point taken

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Jeebus,

Other boat bobbing towards mark with stern arch and roller furling headsail whilst you carbon sails ablaze charge in to mark. Clearly not a championship regatta. Why be such a tough guy threatening protest and mucking it up? You could effortlessly flick your boat around them and the mark and be out of there with everyone's day unsoiled. OK, you wanted to teach them a lesson about rules or whatever...........bottom line, you acomplished nothing other than annoy another sailor and make us wonder why you would bother posting this silly incident here.

 

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