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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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kmcfast

X 24 class is a simplified J 24

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https://www.facebook.com/X-24-Class-Association-523240304679254/

Putting together a class of slightly modified J 24’s. A 3 sail, 3 person boat with standard J 24 class sails main, Jib and spinnaker. Prototype has no pulpits stern rails just 4 stantions, no primaries, no traveler just bridle, turnbuckle or Furler on forestay. Any ideas on rules or tips to make a simpler boat chime in.

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6 minutes ago, Lynch said:

Shit

You can simplify a J24!

I was thinking the same thing; but I guess an assym is simpler....

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1 hour ago, Kevlar Edge said:

instead of x24 you should call it an IC24 otherwise is sounds like an X-Yachts 24

Great, now you got the idea in my head that X-Yachts is coming out with a 24' one design. I wonder what it would look like.

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8 hours ago, kmcfast said:

https://www.facebook.com/X-24-Class-Association-523240304679254/

Putting together a class of slightly modified J 24’s. A 3 sail, 3 person boat with standard J 24 class sails main, Jib and spinnaker. Prototype has no pulpits stern rails just 4 stantions, no primaries, no traveler just bridle, turnbuckle or Furler on forestay. Any ideas on rules or tips to make a simpler boat chime in.

http://okcboatclub.com/files/phrf/class-rules/ic-24.pdf  ?

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4 hours ago, Don the mexican said:

take the bung out, when launching

 

+1   (It's still a J 24.....by any other name)   

 

I became quite acquainted with their stability, or lack thereof back in my 'yute'....

 

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9 hours ago, kmcfast said:

https://www.facebook.com/X-24-Class-Association-523240304679254/

Putting together a class of slightly modified J 24’s. A 3 sail, 3 person boat with standard J 24 class sails main, Jib and spinnaker. Prototype has no pulpits stern rails just 4 stantions, no primaries, no traveler just bridle, turnbuckle or Furler on forestay. Any ideas on rules or tips to make a simpler boat chime in.

What is the goal? All for a modified j24 class - but what are you aiming for?

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Some J fleets are dying...getting rid of the Genoa makes it a 3 man boat. less crew more boats racing. Longer forestay fixes the lack of weather helm. see ic 24. J 24 rules are too restrictive. Staying with standard j 24 sails for now. Post your input.  Thx

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Could call it “Ex 24 if that makes u happy.  Ex because your Ex took all your money and all you can afford is just this stinkin tee shirt and J.

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We likely have a J-24-X for sale - cockpit already modified. Rather like this, but it still has a traveler. 

Vessel is in western Lake Erie 

Let me know if interested. 

Image result for modify a j-24 sailboat

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2 hours ago, kmcfast said:

Some J fleets are dying...getting rid of the Genoa makes it a 3 man boat. less crew more boats racing. Longer forestay fixes the lack of weather helm. see ic 24. J 24 rules are too restrictive. Staying with standard j 24 sails for now. Post your input.  Thx

seems a miss to create a class without making the j 24 more comfortable/less expensive. flattening her out without railmeat makes a lot of sense. But why slow her down and require 3 to run her. I vote:

  • keep the traveler and primaries since they are already there
  • switch to a 120ish headsail on a roller furler
  • allow the main to be roached out
  • ditch the lightweight sailcloth and move back to more durable/less expensive materials
  • add a portapotty

I don't see the value in removing the pulpit or stern rail

 

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2 hours ago, kmcfast said:

Could call it “Ex 24 if that makes u happy.  Ex because your Ex took all your money and all you can afford is just this stinkin tee shirt and J.

sounds like the Ex took your traveler, primaries, and bow/stern rails with her in the split

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Feet in hiking only

Allow through deck lines

Mast ram and rollers on mast butt to allow pushing the mast forward downwind

In race rig adjustments allowed

Larger roach main

Allow blocks on the jib clew to add a purchase and winches are optional

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Our proto boat is saving over 160 lbs. by removing primaries, bow and stern rails, 2 Stantions, traveler. Plumber and freewheelin thx for your input. You can fill the old holes with s s carriage bolts.

 

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The only good thing about a j24 these days is OD racing. There are still good competitive fleets all around the world and the cost of entry is reasonable. Why change that?

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11 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

We likely have a J-24-X for sale - cockpit already modified. Rather like this, but it still has a traveler. 

Vessel is in western Lake Erie 

Let me know if interested. 

Image result for modify a j-24 sailboat

Visual proof. Add a decent cockpit and folks are sitting or standing around, with no one hiking :)  Those boats like to be sailed flat!

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I don't think he's trying to change the healthy fleets.  But cruise craigslist or similar, and there are tons of older J-24s that are not in shape to compete in OD, but could make a nice little, lower key racer, for a lot less bucks.  I think that's what he's aiming at.  I raced a J-24 in a PHRF fleet way back in the late 80s (No OD where I was).  Back then the boat was a joy to sail.  It hadn't yet been tweaked to extract every last .001 kts out of it.  It had a nice helm with a touch of wx helm in almost all conditions.  Sails were reasonable...not one regatta wonders like now.  Keels were faired, but the max forward keel stuff hadn't started yet I don't think, etc, etc.

I'd happily get back into racing that kind of J-24...

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∆∆∆ okak, I get it (kind of), thanks.

8 minutes ago, Crash said:

I don't think he's trying to change the healthy fleets.  But cruise craigslist or similar, and there are tons of older J-24s that are not in shape to compete in OD, but could make a nice little, lower key racer, for a lot less bucks.  I think that's what he's aiming at.  I raced a J-24 in a PHRF fleet way back in the late 80s (No OD where I was).  Back then the boat was a joy to sail.  It hadn't yet been tweaked to extract every last .001 kts out of it.  It had a nice helm with a touch of wx helm in almost all conditions.  Sails were reasonable...not one regatta wonders like now.  Keels were faired, but the max forward keel stuff hadn't started yet I don't think, etc, etc.

I'd happily get back into racing that kind of J-24...

 

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5 hours ago, kmcfast said:

Our proto boat is saving over 160 lbs. by removing primaries, bow and stern rails, 2 Stantions, traveler. Plumber and freewheelin thx for your input. You can fill the old holes with s s carriage bolts.

 

Then you need to put it all and more in a bulb at the bottom of the keel...

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Actually, we used our modified J-24-X as a learn to sail boat. 

The mod gets mostly rid of the deck sweeper boom, and leaves room for four (easily and) safely in the cockpit. 

I thought it was a blast to sail - and no kicker motor needed - sailed easily off and on the dock, which was a great confidence builder for newkies. 

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23 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

Great, now you got the idea in my head that X-Yachts is coming out with a 24' one design. I wonder what it would look like.

 

Ditto that. I was excited, until I found out that it was about those little pain box miseryships...

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With all due respect, why on earth would anyone pour money into modifying a boat that can be had for <$5,000k in pretty much any market? around here they’re practically free.

Apaud the spirit of getting more people out, but it smells a bit of diminishing returns.

Like putting disc brakes and a new Dura Ace gruppo on a 1982 celeste Bianchi frame, just because steel was so real... 

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Exactly Crash... some fleets are strong others are gone. Cheap boats everywhere. Repurpose them or to the landfill. Fixed forestay length forced many mods that would have been unnecessary with a longer forestay. An example of Repurpose is In PDX, the have 40+ cal 20s all have jibs and spinnakers.

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10 hours ago, Crash said:

I don't think he's trying to change the healthy fleets.  But cruise craigslist or similar, and there are tons of older J-24s that are not in shape to compete in OD, but could make a nice little, lower key racer, for a lot less bucks.  I think that's what he's aiming at.  I raced a J-24 in a PHRF fleet way back in the late 80s (No OD where I was).  Back then the boat was a joy to sail.  It hadn't yet been tweaked to extract every last .001 kts out of it.  It had a nice helm with a touch of wx helm in almost all conditions.  Sails were reasonable...not one regatta wonders like now.  Keels were faired, but the max forward keel stuff hadn't started yet I don't think, etc, etc.

I'd happily get back into racing that kind of J-24...

Personally, I love the idea of turning the J24s laying around in every yard into the go-to low cost (purchase and maintain) racer. They are a blast to race around in, but it is a kick in the gut having to put in the entire purchase price of a boat every year just to stay competitive. I think this idea has legs.

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1 hour ago, kmcfast said:

Exactly Crash... some fleets are strong others are gone. Cheap boats everywhere. Repurpose them or to the landfill. Fixed forestay length forced many mods that would have been unnecessary with a longer forestay. An example of Repurpose is In PDX, the have 40+ cal 20s all have jibs and spinnakers.

I am no expert, but I would like to see a way to move the j24 to a flatter, lighter boat requiring less crew to perform. But making it an entry level knock-around racer in my mind means it should be somewhat versatile. How would a Jib alone perform on point to point races? I think it would be fun to see some $7K boats get into the mix with $70K boats on some of the long course races. There are enough w/l only boats out there...

Food for thought?

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A couple of comments:

There is already the IC24, we actually have one at our club on Tampa Bay. Why another class version of the similar type modification?

In light air venues such as ours only having a blade is going to be misery, it is bad enough with the genoa. The IC24 guy just gets killed on our Thursday beercans, in fact I have not seen the boat move or sail in a while.

It is an idea for old boats that are not being used for class racing but gutting the performance too much is a deal breaker for some, IMO.

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3 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

 

Like putting disc brakes and a new Dura Ace gruppo on a 1982 celeste Bianchi frame, just because steel was so real... 

Steel is REAL!  Shimano on a Bianchi?  The horror!

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5 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

A couple of comments:

There is already the IC24, we actually have one at our club on Tampa Bay. Why another class version of the similar type modification?

In light air venues such as ours only having a blade is going to be misery, it is bad enough with the genoa. The IC24 guy just gets killed on our Thursday beercans, in fact I have not seen the boat move or sail in a while.

It is an idea for old boats that are not being used for class racing but gutting the performance too much is a deal breaker for some, IMO.

I share this concern. Gutting performance too much takes away the fun. But the idea I think is to re-purpose the thousands of boats available for cheap - even if that means making it similar to a less available boat.

What would you suggest to keep the performance up, but make the boat competitive for a shorthand crew. In my experience you seem to need 4 on the rail in order to sail close to rating.

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10 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

I am no expert, but I would like to see a way to move the j24 to a flatter, lighter boat requiring less crew to perform. But making it an entry level knock-around racer in my mind means it should be somewhat versatile. How would a Jib alone perform on point to point races? I think it would be fun to see some $7K boats get into the mix with $70K boats on some of the long course races. There are enough w/l only boats out there...

Food for thought?

Having raced J/24s and a number of things that used to rate level-is with J/24s (Kirby 25, Merit 25, Capri 25) in point to point races as well as 'round the cans, I can attest that jib only is probably not competitive unless the rating took a major bump. Beamy, short waterline things like to be sailed flat, and only have an advantage when you can surf/plane. For us the formula used to be throw up the 155 and get a few beefy dudes on the high side. Shorthanded, jib-only in big air in point-to point races, we would get passed by boats with lower aspect ratio sailplans that had less heeling moment for the same amount of horsepower, and waterlined by things like C&C 30s who we owed 4 sec/mile. In lighter air things like U20s just stomped us downwind. Without changing the rig or putting a blob of lead at the bottom of the keel, I can't see a way of making crew weight a non-factor. Jib only is just going to be underpowered. 

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6 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

I share this concern. Gutting performance too much takes away the fun. But the idea I think is to re-purpose the thousands of boats available for cheap - even if that means making it similar to a less available boat.

What would you suggest to keep the performance up, but make the boat competitive for a shorthand crew. In my experience you seem to need 4 on the rail in order to sail close to rating.

this

post-36108-039570400%201326800755.jpg

 

Class jib uphill.... big fuck-off A-kite downhill.

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10 minutes ago, ajbram said:

Having raced J/24s and a number of things that used to rate level-is with J/24s (Kirby 25, Merit 25, Capri 25) in point to point races as well as 'round the cans, I can attest that jib only is probably not competitive unless the rating took a major bump. Beamy, short waterline things like to be sailed flat, and only have an advantage when you can surf/plane. For us the formula used to be throw up the 155 and get a few beefy dudes on the high side. Shorthanded, jib-only in big air in point-to point races, we would get passed by boats with lower aspect ratio sailplans that had less heeling moment for the same amount of horsepower, and waterlined by things like C&C 30s who we owed 4 sec/mile. In lighter air things like U20s just stomped us downwind. Without changing the rig or putting a blob of lead at the bottom of the keel, I can't see a way of making crew weight a non-factor. Jib only is just going to be underpowered. 

talk to me about this blob of lead in the keel...

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Why create another simplified J-24 when the IC-24 already exists?  The IC-24 is a fun boat to bonk around in, and the only real drawback to them is the small jib (in light air) but going to a single jib on a eX-24 would have the same effect.

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2 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

talk to me about this blob of lead in the keel...

Lower c/g = less reliance on crew weight for righting moment. I'm no engineer, but a 300lb bulb would probably be as helpful as 2 dudes on the rail. If you want to keep class sails and make a J/24 still competitive with less crew, I see this as a way to maintain performance. Jib-only, no traveler just helps to depower the boat. Saving ~150# by removing deck gear probably doesn't compensate for the loss of horsepower from not having a genoa.

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1 minute ago, ajbram said:

Lower c/g = less reliance on crew weight for righting moment. I'm no engineer, but a 300lb bulb would probably be as helpful as 2 dudes on the rail. If you want to keep class sails and make a J/24 still competitive with less crew, I see this as a way to maintain performance. Jib-only, no traveler just helps to depower the boat. Saving ~150# by removing deck gear probably doesn't compensate for the loss of horsepower from not having a genoa.

Also, bolting on a keel bulb can't be any more expensive than replacing a deck.

 

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Because, as stated before, IC-24 = new deck.  That means too many $$$.  Idea is to repurpose all the old J-24s sitting around, without having to put a new deck on them...

Now a shoe on the bottom of the keel to increase RM to offset less crew, and an A-frame sprit on the front to run an asym or Code 0 and you'd have a pretty neat boat...

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2 minutes ago, Crash said:

Because, as stated before, IC-24 = new deck.  That means too many $$$.  Idea is to repurpose all the old J-24s sitting around, without having to put a new deck on them...

Now a shoe on the bottom of the keel to increase RM to offset less crew, and an A-frame sprit on the front to run an asym or Code 0 and you'd have a pretty neat boat...

+1.... increase RM, A-kite on that boat with a retrieval line and you wouldn't need anyone on the foredeck. Could be sailed by 3 pretty easily. 

Less crew + less sail = less fun.

Less crew + more RM + more downwind SA = same amount of upwind fun + more upwind fun = more net fun.

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7 minutes ago, Crash said:

Now a shoe on the bottom of the keel to increase RM to offset less crew, and an A-frame sprit on the front to run an asym or Code 0 and you'd have a pretty neat boat...

now we are talking... A-frame would be badass.

Though now we may be moving away from the "low cost of entry" deal. what about weights in the bilge instead of the bulb - would that help at all?

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I remember reading about the j24 sailors cheating by adding lead to the keel. They obviously did this without adding a bulb. Is there an easy/cheap way to do this, and would it flatten the boat?

Once you move away from OD, its no longer cheating and becomes a mod, right?

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2 hours ago, freewheelin said:

I am no expert, but I would like to see a way to move the j24 to a flatter, lighter boat requiring less crew to perform. But making it an entry level knock-around racer in my mind means it should be somewhat versatile. How would a Jib alone perform on point to point races? I think it would be fun to see some $7K boats get into the mix with $70K boats on some of the long course races. There are enough w/l only boats out there...

Food for thought?

J 24 Class min. Hull weight 3031# most PHRF will credit jib 6-9 sec./ mile

X 24  upwind with jib SA/D with 600# crew is 23.5

J 24 upwind with Genoa SA/D with 882# crew is 22.36

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2 hours ago, kmcfast said:

J 24 Class min. Hull weight 3031# most PHRF will credit jib 6-9 sec./ mile

X 24  upwind with jib SA/D with 600# crew is 23.5

J 24 upwind with Genoa SA/D with 882# crew is 22.36

So you're talking about max crew weights. This is really only beneficial when it's windy. Our most successful time racing a Kirby 25, we were 3 up totalling ~520lb. If it was blowing we flew the #3. If it was 11kt or less we flew the #1. In big air a J/24 with a jib is enough fun, it's when it gets light that it's going to feel really sticky with no #1.

I don't see why "simplifying" has to mean "making it slower."

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48 minutes ago, ajbram said:

I don't see why "simplifying" has to mean "making it slower."

+1 - Cheaper, yes. More simple, yes. Slower, no.

I have sailed a J 24 plenty of time jib only in light winds, it is sticky and boring - and that's just day sailing. I have also sailed shorthanded with a 155 in bigger winds, and that is not much fun either. I think something in between would be balance enough and still fast.

I really like the sprit idea, though maybe just because it looks cool. I've never sailed an asym - how stable would it be downhill?

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5 hours ago, bridhb said:

Steel is REAL!  Shimano on a Bianchi?  The horror!

Yeah. About as much of a horror show as retrofitting a sprit and asym on a facking J24...

About as useful as sewing a third arm into my face. 

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17 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

Yeah. About as much of a horror show as retrofitting a sprit and asym on a facking J24...

About as useful as sewing a third arm into my face. 

why not mod a j 24? what other boat is as inexpensive, available, and still fast enough to be fun? seems like the perfect boat to mess with.

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On 11/15/2017 at 9:47 AM, ajbram said:

Why get rid of the traveler? 

Opens up the cockpit the std. short one is next to useless.

3 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

why not mod a j 24? what other boat is as inexpensive, available, and still fast enough to be fun? seems like the perfect boat to mess with.

SA/Disp. Is too low. And hull shape is too fat and too much rocker for a proper A sail sport boat.

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18 hours ago, freewheelin said:

+1 - Cheaper, yes. More simple, yes. Slower, no.

I have sailed a J 24 plenty of time jib only in light winds, it is sticky and boring - and that's just day sailing. I have also sailed shorthanded with a 155 in bigger winds, and that is not much fun either. I think something in between would be balance enough and still fast.

I really like the sprit idea, though maybe just because it looks cool. I've never sailed an asym - how stable would it be downhill?

Asym on a sprit sails hotter angles. You need crew weight to keep it flat. Deck-mounted articulating sprit allows you to sail deeper, which might be better for a J24

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38 minutes ago, ajbram said:

Asym on a sprit sails hotter angles. You need crew weight to keep it flat. Deck-mounted articulating sprit allows you to sail deeper, which might be better for a J24

ok, now we may have officially jumped the shark on the OP's desire for simple, cheap, accessible. So maybe back to basics? 

  • Roached out main with full battens
  • Headsail somewhere in the the 120-30 range
  • Durable sail cloth
  • Normal, widely available spin
  • Leave the traveler/primaries as optional
  • Ditch pulpit, but keep stern rail - it's a comfort factor while daysailing

If the traveler is useless, let owners decide whether to go with it or save the weight 

  • 1 hour ago, kmcfast said:

    Opens up the cockpit the std. short one is next to useless.

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32 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

ok, now we may have officially jumped the shark on the OP's desire for simple, cheap, accessible. So maybe back to basics? 

  • Roached out main with full battens
  • Headsail somewhere in the the 120-30 range
  • Durable sail cloth
  • Normal, widely available spin
  • Leave the traveler/primaries as optional
  • Ditch pulpit, but keep stern rail - it's a comfort factor while daysailing

If the traveler is useless, let owners decide whether to go with it or save the weight 

  •  

If the desire really is simple, cheap, accessible, and the idea is to base something on the J/24 since there are so many cheap ones sitting around right now, why not just leave it alone? If the idea is to get more people out for phrf events, there is nothing wrong with a J/24 as is. The boat that won the C division beercans at our club this year is a J/24 that the owners bought for $100. A couple new class sails and consistent crew, and they were competitive.  Maybe the idea should be to increase awareness that there are boats available that would get interested people out on the water for a minimum investment.

If the idea is to create a one-design class that capitalizes on the J/24s that are out there and readily available, but friendlier for shorthanded crews, I would still argue that getting rid of the genoa, and then trying to compensate for the loss of sail area by incrementally reducing weight and functionality will just result in slowed-down J/24 one-design racing in anything but heavy air. 

 

On the traveler issue,  I agree that the short traveler is pretty ineffective in heavy air, but in light air getting the boom above centerline (even if it's just a bit) for twist is critical. Taking this off the boat, along with several of the other "simplifying" modifications just rob the boat of any light air performance. 

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These Martin 24’s once had Genoa’s. The M 24’s we Configured would murder the old Genoa version. If you want a Genoa knock your self out. Photo Dena Kent

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20 minutes ago, kmcfast said:

These Martin 24’s once had Genoa’s. The M 24’s we Configured would murder the old Genoa version. If you want a Genoa knock your self out. Photo Dena Kent

yes....but. these martins have a completely reshaped main. they also start out 60lbs lighter than the J. I don't think stripping deck hardware but keeping the class main would get you there on a J.

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Shouldn't really be too hard to manage a sail off....find a decent club level J-24 OD boat to serve as the base boat.  BuyFind  an older, cheaper one and make some mods and see how it goes.  I'm guessing that in all by the lightest air, the somewhat lightened, smaller crewed eX-24 would sail at least as well upwind as a standard class boat...

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1 hour ago, kmcfast said:

These Martin 24’s once had Genoa’s. The M 24’s we Configured would murder the old Genoa version. If you want a Genoa knock your self out. Photo Dena Kent

We did the same thing to a Martin 24 back in 1991 or so - and we weren't the first.  Didn't have the fat head mains back then though.  Stuck a 242 rig on it with custom sails but same basic sail plan.

Ironically, I suggested this on an old thread here and got PM'd by one of the Oregon guys back then (Gladiator I think circa 2006) saying that the idea of putting a 242 rig on a 24 was idiotic. Perhaps I should have clarified that it also entailed using the basic 242 sail plan as well, not just the rig itself - but I thought that aspect would be self evident.

We regularly beat the 242s boat for boat in under 8 or over 12 kts.  3 up at that!  The boat was freakin' fast.

Edit:; Just noticed it looks like the Martin 24s in the photo may be sailing 3 up as well

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Stupid Idea! Just get a J/24 and learn how to sail it. What are you saving by getting rid of all the stuff that actually makes the 24 competitive after all these years. Optimize the boat and make sure she is at minimum weight. 

Frenzy

 

 

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Because, the folks that want to be doing that already are, and/or have plenty of opportunity to do so.  This is for a lower key, more laid back "fun" boat.  Less serious, less worried about minimum weight, or getting the keel to max forward.  Just a fun little boat to go beer can racing in.  Less crew, less sails, less optimization to within a thousandth of a mm, etc, etc.  

The J-24 class is great if that's what you want to do.  But there are a ton of cheap J-24s around that would require almost no serious effort to turn into an eX-24, yet would need thousands of dollars and 100s of man hours to make into a semi-competitive OD boat...

Not trying to change the J-24 OD class one bit.  Not trying to draw folks away from it.  But why go thru all that if there is no serious OD where you are...and/or you just want a beercan boat?  Or you like the idea of OD, but not the effort, resources, etc that it takes to really be competitive even regionally in a J-24?

Make more sense?

Crash

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We will have a 6 boat members X 24 fleet this spring at Stockton Sailing Club. Home of the Delta Ditch Run. All J 24’s are welcome..we will have some toggles to extend your forestay, just leave your Genoa in the car.

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1 hour ago, FRENZY said:

Optimize the boat and make sure she is at minimum weight. 

The whole idea is not having to pay as much to optimize the boat or worrying about crew weight

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33 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

The whole idea is not having to pay as much to optimize the boat or worrying about crew weight

Probably a long shot, but might be able to go masthead with 105% headsails. Need to find a class of boat with suitable I & J where decent used jibs and spins are plentiful.  Lengthen spreaders and move chain plates outboard to rail.

Would require some calcs to see if the mast section above the speaders is adequate.

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4” added to the forestay seems to fix the no weather helm issues in the older or no max fwd. keel boats. Run what u brung....

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I get where he's going... I'd be less specific about the li'l bits and pieces.. traveler vs bridle, lifelines or not, leave that to personal preference... just bolt on a 300# torpedo... roach out the main to whatever you can fit under the backstay to make up for the jib being whatever you can fit that doesn't go past the spreaders... add a big masthead Asail that flies on a deck mounted retractable tube prod... yes, you'd have to build the plain sails, I see that, but the ballast bulb and prod would be pretty cheap easy mods... the bulb would help keep up with the Asail in a breeze and mean you could step down a crew or two in most breezes and the stick on those things just miiiight be stout enough to hang on to the new kite without breaking!

my 2¢

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A big Assy should take care of downwind performance.  It sounds like lack of weather helm or even leeward helm is a problem.  Solve that with larger-roached main and a roachy, battened jib instead of a genoa.  That will give a more efficient sail plan than the original, and keep the rig the same.  Sails need to be replaced regularly anyway.  And sure, allow people to play with the forestay length.  Why does that one end up in class rules anyway?  Are they trying to prevent a budget-busting forestay length arms race? 

Keep the bow pulpit so the change is as simple as possible.  Besides, a pulpit is a nice place to do bow work when the going gets nasty.

As much as I like the added righting moment, bolting on a torpedo bulb is not that simple; it adds a huge amount of leverage against the keel bolts and structural grid.

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thats why you try it on a $2k boat... if it busts the keel off the plan is no good... if it doesn't then press on! its called redneck engineering... same with the masthead chute... weld in a sheave box, hoist an old m24 kite and see if it breaks!

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On 11/18/2017 at 11:11 AM, 12 metre said:

Probably a long shot, but might be able to go masthead with 105% headsails. Need to find a class of boat with suitable I & J where decent used jibs and spins are plentiful.  Lengthen spreaders and move chain plates outboard to rail.

Would require some calcs to see if the mast section above the speaders is adequate.

Lashed a block to the masthead and ran a (symmetric) fractional half-tonner kite on a J/24  in 1984 in about 20 knots. Hairy as all fuck and drove the nose under a bit running down waves but the section stood up just fine. Yes, there was alcohol involved, but we won the bet. Even gybed it a couple of times before dragging it down.

That was an Alspar J24 rig built by Sean Langman in his youth. Section is the same as Etchells masts IIRC?

Might be a different story with softer sections such as Kenyon spars.

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June 2nd. 2018 Stockton Sailing Club Delta Ditch Run X 24 one design class. Leave your Genoa at home get a 9 sec./mile PHRF credit.

2018 proposed Class Rule: Must use standard size J 24 OD sails on a J 24, USCC and YRA safety equipment, 4 stanchions and a lifeline, all other International J 24 rules are waived.

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KMC,

Need crew?  Wife's parents live in Stockton, and I've always wanted to do a Ditch Run...

Crash

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We may have as many 8 boats maybe more. Getting interest from SF bay boats as well. PM me your contact info. Fleet boats that want to shoot for OA will need a YRA PHRF rating.

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On 11/15/2017 at 9:34 PM, Crash said:

I don't think he's trying to change the healthy fleets.  But cruise craigslist or similar, and there are tons of older J-24s that are not in shape to compete in OD, but could make a nice little, lower key racer, for a lot less bucks.  I think that's what he's aiming at.  I raced a J-24 in a PHRF fleet way back in the late 80s (No OD where I was).  Back then the boat was a joy to sail.  It hadn't yet been tweaked to extract every last .001 kts out of it.  It had a nice helm with a touch of wx helm in almost all conditions.  Sails were reasonable...not one regatta wonders like now.  Keels were faired, but the max forward keel stuff hadn't started yet I don't think, etc, etc.

I'd happily get back into racing that kind of J-24...

Yup 

 

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Could this thing not be as simple as getting a PHRF rating for J24 without the genoa.

Having done a wide variety of sailboat racing, I have got to say that lighthearted, O/D in beat up shitboxes where everyone has a laugh is quite appealing. I think it migh suit certain demographics quite well, as I get a little older I still like sailing, I still like racing. As life becomes more grown up I just can't really get a space in my head where I can take it very seriously.

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2018 Delta Ditch Run X 24s PHRF rating credit will be 9 sec. / mile. We will most likely have a OD fleet 5 plus boats but the overall will require a PHRF cert.

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16 hours ago, kmcfast said:

2018 Delta Ditch Run X 24s PHRF rating credit will be 9 sec. / mile. We will most likely have a OD fleet 5 plus boats but the overall will require a PHRF cert.

So why not race a stock J/24s OD, why would you want a PHRF rating to race OD? Goofy!

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On 11/15/2017 at 11:59 AM, kmcfast said:

Some J fleets are dying...

Its their time. They have lived a long and good life. I owned and campaigned a J24 for many years. No regrets. But its time to say those last goodbyes.

As Dan Tucker, a passionate J24 sailor for many years, said so gracefully

"There is nothing wrong with a J24......that cannot be fixed with a chain saw and a dumpster"

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On 11/16/2017 at 9:59 AM, kmcfast said:

 Cheap boats everywhere. Repurpose them or to the landfill.

Yup.

 

Oh and I do like the idea of a longer forestay. That fixed forestay rule must have been written by the Trade Union For Speed Shop and Keel Fairing

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8 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Yup.

 

Oh and I do like the idea of a longer forestay. That fixed forestay rule must have been written by the Trade Union For Speed Shop and Keel Fairing

They are now allowing a turnbuckle on the forestay attachment. I bet that some forestay magically get a little longer on the racecourse...if you know what I mean...

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1 hour ago, Plumber said:

They are now allowing a turnbuckle on the forestay attachment. I bet that some forestay magically get a little longer on the racecourse...if you know what I mean...

Yup

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