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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
hdra

Have Torqueedo Outboards Come of Age Yet

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Does anyone have experience with relatively new Torqueedo outboards?  We're thinking about getting one to replace the 9.9HP Mercury 4-stroke (which has its own set of issues) on our Achilles 3.4m air-floor inflatable.  I know there were a lot of teething problems with the Torqueedos, particularly around waterproof-ness/marinization  - I had some friends who bought one in 2011 and replaced it 6 months later with a gas 4-stroke.  Has battery life / range / performance improved significantly?  I know we won't be able to plane with one, but will we be able to push the dinghy with 5 adults in it into 20kts of wind?  How many batteries would we need to shuttle back and forth to shore all day at a reasonable pace?

-Eric

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I have had one for six months now

here are two films about it

In summary - good for four miles at full blatt- 6 knots - 12 foot dinghy

good for 14 miles at 3 knots - and because it is quiet I am happy to go at three knots

 

the gain on the mike first film makes it sound noisier than it is

I used a petrol outboard the other day for the first time after six months of peaceful motoring. It seemed smelly and noisy by comparison.

 

 

 

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Pushing a loaded RIB into a head wind uses the battery fairly quickly. Say an hour or less. I would want a spare.

On the other hand pottering about in calm conditions in an easily driven skiff and the battery will last much longer. 

If I knew I was never going to make more than 2 short trips in a day then at 1500 US the 2 hp is worth considering.

But that is still 3 times the price of a 2 stroke 2.5hp 

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2 hours ago, hdra said:

Has battery life / range / performance improved significantly?

Not much.  Travel 1003C was released recently with increased range, I think the same model that Dylan reviews.  Expensive initial outlay for minimal range and long charging times.  (7 hours for charging from the mains, double that using a 12v charger.)  Dylan covered the positive points: quiet, clean and low maintenance.

  I think these will remain relatively niche until battery technology catches up with the concept in terms of energy density and charging speed.  I have a 10 year old 4 stroke Yamaha 2.5 on my hard dinghy and I'm pretty sure I'll have it 10 years from now.  Not sure a Torqeedo owner will be able to make the same statement without sending their unit in for repairs and needing to eventually purchase a new battery pack for $1k.

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Hdra,

I'm using a Travel 1003 for auxiliary power for my 3200 lb. H-Boat on an inland lake - much different purpose than you have in mind. I have a 500+Wh battery and a 900+Wh battery. Thus far it has been fine. I migrated from a Honda 2.3 HP 4-cycle last January. It would push me at about 5.3 knots with WOT in calm air; the Travel 1003 would do 4.8 knots. While the Torqeedo people say it's equivalent to 3 HP, I don't think it is. Nevertheless, I've been quite happy with it. 

Take a look at this thread for lots of info.

 

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Anecdotal evidence around here is they're not ready.  One friend had a software glitch this summer that required the outboard to be returned to Torqeedo for reflashing.  Could not be done locally. He discovered a number of similar reports.  Annoying if you live somewhere you can borrow a spare from someone to use to get out to your boat;  a real issue if you're off cruising.  YMMV.  Do not taunt happy fun ball. Etc.

 

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Dylan, which motor/battery are you reviewing?  The 530WH battery or the 900Wh+ one?

Bull City, Thanks for the link - will dig through that post tomorrow.

My biggest concern (I think) is ability to run all day without issues - we're going to be doing some trips next spring where the 3.4m airfloor boat will need to be shuttling scuba tanks back and forth between the big boat and another tender on a dive site all day long, potentially up to 1 mile round trips.  We've got plenty of charging capability to recharge batteries, but would be nice to be able to only buy 2 batteries and not have to worry about things like software glitches freezing the motor.

We've done this with the 9.9hp gas motor, and trying to decide if we can expect to be able to function (albeit perhaps slower when returning empty) with an electric.  The 9.9HP mercury is a bit of a bastard - not very reliable, always clogging the idle jet (no matter about filtration etc) so am trying to decide which set of headaches is better.

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1 hour ago, Hovertank said:

Not much.  Travel 1003C was released recently with increased range, I think the same model that Dylan reviews.  Expensive initial outlay for minimal range and long charging times.  (7 hours for charging from the mains, double that using a 12v charger.)  Dylan covered the positive points: quiet, clean and low maintenance.

  I think these will remain relatively niche until battery technology catches up with the concept in terms of energy density and charging speed.  I have a 10 year old 4 stroke Yamaha 2.5 on my hard dinghy and I'm pretty sure I'll have it 10 years from now.  Not sure a Torqeedo owner will be able to make the same statement without sending their unit in for repairs and needing to eventually purchase a new battery pack for $1k.

I think that the move to electric requires a slight change of mindset and accepting a few truths about the way we use our dinghies in the real world.  I cannot remember the last time I did more than a couple of miles in the tender when using the Honda 2.3 (an excellent little engine in its way - although not without some faults). Most of the time I use it I am ferrying stuff to and from the shore - usually around 200 yards or so.  At three knots the dinghy/torqeedo combo I have seems to offer around 10 or 12 miles of travel and is using about 300 watts or so at that speed.  That is a s lot of shuttling around. If I want to go at six knots the engine is using 1KW and is forcing the dinghy up onto the plane - not an efficient way to travel. - down to four miles then.

When on holiday I am usually marina hopping and doing just the occasional night on the hook or a mooring. Again short shuffles.  So keeping the thing charged is no problem.

Battery life of the Lithium Ion jobbies is turning out to be longer than expected - fingers crossed.

the manufacturers of batteries for almost everything are using the same  16250 cells in them - the cars the powerwalls, the laptops, the bikes, the cordless drills. Power density on these cells is slowly rising. 

My engine  is a long shaft and I use it in the trailer sailer as well as the dinghy- I am on a river with 3 knot tides - but only in the channel - along the edges it runs at 0.5 knots  so if I cannot get the 22 footer going at 3.5 knots then I am not going to my mooring (which is in the deep water).

I reckon it will shove my one tonne trailer sailer at 4.5 knots - but only for half an hour or so. If I am using the little Honda on the big boat then a gallon of petrol will keep that little sucker running at 4.5 knots for around 8 hours. However, 8 hours of sharing a cockpit with an air cooled honda in a well at the centre of a parallax reflector is a truly pants experience.

 

There are lots of days when I can go out to the yacht in the tender and use the torqeedo on both vessels. I get home at night plug it in and it is magically full and ready to go again. However, slumbering in the quarter berth is the 6hp long shaft Tohatsu and a three gallon tank of petrol. So if things go tits up weatherwise then I have a plan B.

 

However, if I am off adventuring in  the trailer sailer then it is back to the 6hp Tohatsu for the main engine and the 2hp Honda as the tender engine and back up. Knowing that the six gallons of fuel on board will keep the boat running at six knots for 12 hours or so is a great comfort.

The little Honda can also be used as a secondary power unit for a bigger boat - in this case shoving the Centaur along - jolly nice boats by the way. I miss her greatly.

 

The Torqeedo is a bit like my electric bike - it is not a case of chucking away the old bike - but running them both but on different days.

 

With the Torqeedo my dinghy and yacht do not smell of petrol, it costs about 10 pence for a tank full of electricity, so far no maintenance has been required. It does not feel as robust as the Honda... but maybe it does not need to be.

 

I was given this Torqeedo by a Tanker Captain called Chris (who says my films keep him sane when on a six week tour of duty)  He said it would change my relationship with the river. It has done that. I see more birds, I travel more slowly because travelling under power is almost as nice as sailing, if I am not going that well to windward just to get around a bend in the estuary or I stuff up a tack too close to the mud flicking the throttle on the Torqeedo swings her around in a jiffy.

All round, I love not using the petrol engines - but I would never risk leaving the estuary unless at least one of them is aboard for when the Torqeedo runs out of puff.

You do have to change your thinking .... but being able to hear the birds when under power is a wonderful thing.

Dylan

 

 

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46 minutes ago, hdra said:

Dylan, which motor/battery are you reviewing?  The 530WH battery or the 900Wh+ one?

Bull City, Thanks for the link - will dig through that post tomorrow.

My biggest concern (I think) is ability to run all day without issues - we're going to be doing some trips next spring where the 3.4m airfloor boat will need to be shuttling scuba tanks back and forth between the big boat and another tender on a dive site all day long, potentially up to 1 mile round trips.  We've got plenty of charging capability to recharge batteries, but would be nice to be able to only buy 2 batteries and not have to worry about things like software glitches freezing the motor.

We've done this with the 9.9hp gas motor, and trying to decide if we can expect to be able to function (albeit perhaps slower when returning empty) with an electric.  The 9.9HP mercury is a bit of a bastard - not very reliable, always clogging the idle jet (no matter about filtration etc) so am trying to decide which set of headaches is better.

It is the bigger battery. The use you describe sounds like a big ask for a battery outboard. I would use an air cooled Honda 2.3. They are amazing engines - they are basically paretially marinised lawnmover engines. Designed to run flawlessly and on almost no maintenance for five years or so - but when they give up they really do throw in the towell

Incidentally, an unexpected upside of an air cooled outboard in an engine well is that it keeps my feet warm in winter.

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I love rowing too - but there are times when you need to move a lot of gear around or the tide and the wind are both coming the wrong way or you need a back-up for the main engine.

I now have three dinghies and three sets of oars. When family come to stay we often go off for a row in the dinghies - usually downtide or downwind. Once it is time to come home we breast up the three dinghies and use the Torqeedo for bringing us all home. It is then that we break open the wine or rum and drink as we come back home. We can talk using our voices at normal volume. 

I am really enjoying the little engine.

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Dylan,

I join you in enjoying the relative quiet and the absence of petroleum smell. So far, I haven't had any range anxiety, but my needs are different from Hdra's, and yours. The added bonuses for me are (a) Reverse gear, and (b) Remote throttle (connected by cable): my boat has a long afterdeck, and reaching the Honda's throttle was very awkward, (c) no more repeatedly yanking the bloody starter cord and having it snap back and hit my other hand.

I can break down the Torqeedo into two components and lock them in the cabin with no worries about leaking gasoline and oil.

Happy Torqeedoing,

B.C.

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I'm guessing the long charge time effectively precludes the chance of sitting a solar panel in the dink as the juicer then?

If you're towing them with the prop down can they hydro-generate?

A shame they look like a Transformer's robot dick. Musk or Jobs wouldn't have launched the future looking that clunky.

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I'm getting 3 miles range out of a lead acid car battery and an electric trolling motor. 

I love the quiet and I'd love 5-8 mile range of a Torqueedo.

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Hey @dylan winter, why not tart up your parabolic sound torture panel with some funky cork acoustic baffling? Or less funky acrylic sonic diffusers. Or take the swain way and weld on some egg cartons.

 

IMG_1060.JPG

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2 hours ago, kdh said:

I don't know. Oars are so easy to use and maintain. I'll stick with that approach for now.

There are oars and there are oars...

 

69577410-BCE6-4C9F-B299-167B4141AD80.jpeg

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There is no doubt, the Torqueedo is here to stay. I've seen several around the coast. That's a big increase considering I didn't see a one until a couple years ago. About that time, many people were saying the electric car would never work out for production. Ha! I especially appreciate the lack of noise when one goes by. Everybody does. 

If we ever feel the need for an assist, it will be an electric outboard. I dislike all the complications of an outboard, the smell and noise. The Torqueedo solves that at a reasonable cost. It does add complication to our simple, reliable rowing system. 

Our typical row for our coastal cruising, even when ferrying big loads, isn't very long. It's the most pleasurable exercise(which we look for), better than a walk in the woods. 

21910344375_c67bdc4a4a_h.jpg

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I wonder if the Torqueedo gets an exemption at the Brooklin Yacht club on the Eggemoggin Reach? All are welcome to tie their dinghy up at the clubs docks, but not if you have an outboard. :) Some one should test their rule:

"Visiting dinghies may tie up on the inside of our floats, but outboard motors are not welcome."

https://www.chycinfo.com/

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The OP asked a question which hasn't really been answered yet-  Has the reliability improved? Waterproofness/marinization?

The re-flashing of the computer, and damage to the electronic components is one of the things keeping me on the old fashioned electric trolling motor. In the 3-5 times I've witnessed someone actually using their Torqueedo, one of those times, I watched an owner load it onto his dinghy, and the unit failed, giving alarm tones. He gave up and rowed. That's not cool, considering the price of these things.

Can anyone speak to these issues?  How was customer support when you had an issue?

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It's my understanding that the "computer" related issues have been worked out. I got mine in January of this year, and haven't had any problems.

I had a customer support issue related to the configuration of the remote throttle cable. I got it resolved, but it required persistence on my part. I was surprised by the initial stubbornness of Torqeedo USA, given that they are trying to gain acceptance of a relatively new product.

The Travel 1003 seems robust enough for my tame sailing environment. If I were sailing on coastal waters, I would want more power and range. Torqeedo makes an OB that is a step up in HP and price.

If I had to shuttle a dink with 5 adults into a 20 knot head wind, I'm not so sure the Travel 1003 is up to the job.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Can anyone speak to these issues?  How was customer support when you had an issue?

I have five Sage 17 owners using Torqueedos on their boats.   One had an issue with a battery fault (they had two, which i recommend, and the other worked fine).  The customer w/the battery fault contacted Torqueedo and returned the battery and received a replacement ... took maybe 3-4 weeks (can't remember it was four years ago) for shipping etc.

No other issues reported by owners.  Delivered a Sage 17 to her own last month with a Torqueedo on the transom.

 

sailing.JPG

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I have had my torqueedo 3hp for 3 years now without any hassle or bother or even the need to charge it.    It stays quite clean and unobtrusive in its delivery cardboard box sitting in the garage.    I also have the carrying case which folds up nicely when not in use which is always.    

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When I got my new (to me) boat I was given a choice between the Dyer 9' sailing dink, which has custom chock's on the coachroof, and the rigid bottom inflatable with a torqueedo. I took the inflatable with the torqueedo. I used it a bit and like it, and I already have a Trinka I can drag around.

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Good to hear. Maybe I'll reconsider. I'm just pushing an 8 foot dink with 2 or 3 people.

Scoob, I got to see the Sage boats up close at the Annapolis boat show. They seem like great little boats. I'm partial to the catboat.  I hope business is going well for you.

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The fin broke when I hit the hard - £20 from ebay. The shear pin broke and mashed the inside of the prop - torqeedo replaced the prop for me.

the things are not as robust as 2hp four strokes

but I still like. I was using it today on the 22 footer - I like the peace and quiet.

D

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On 11/16/2017 at 5:20 PM, HFC Hunter said:

A shame they look like a Transformer's robot dick.

You better hope this guy never takes that as an insult:

 

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100 lb thrust trolling motors are now available

what about two of those on the stern of a 25 footer - and maybe ten lead acid batteries, solar panels, an aerogen  and a genset

I would  also have the long shaft 6hp Tohatsu on a bracket.

The boat in question is  one of these

I have come across one with a fekked and seized engine

894533_0-1.jpg

 

 

 

- I would like to be able to motor for 20 miles in calm weather but am hoping that the 6hp and the trolling motors would give me some punch if I needed some short term oomph! - as is likely in scotland.

 

 

 

 

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I'd sooner go with a nice fuel injected Honda outboard. If you keep the RPMs low, they're incredibly quiet.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

I'd sooner go with a nice fuel injected Honda outboard. If you keep the RPMs low, they're incredibly quiet.

Is there a light fuel injected Honda?  The closest thing in function to the Torqueedo is the Honda 2.3, and it isn't quiet. 

I sold my outboard after 3 years of carrying it around and not using it. I just prefer rowing. 

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

100 lb thrust trolling motors are now available

what about two of those on the stern of a 25 footer - and maybe ten lead acid batteries, solar panels, an aerogen  and a genset

I would  also have the long shaft 6hp Tohatsu on a bracket.

The boat in question is  one of these

I have come across one with a fekked and seized engine

894533_0-1.jpg

 

 

 

- I would like to be able to motor for 20 miles in calm weather but am hoping that the 6hp and the trolling motors would give me some punch if I needed some short term oomph! - as is likely in scotland.

 

 

 

 

Rebuild the engine, it’s fun ...

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I've had three outboards on my 20' daysailer, including a Torqeedo 1003 for the petrol-free lake and for racing under sail. The other outboards were a Suzuki 2.5 (which I got rid of) and a smelly but gutsy Mariner 6hp for cruising at sea.

The Torqeedo's range with the newish bigger battery (915Wh, standard on the 1003C) is much improved on the original but still way off an "equivalent" petrol outboard like the Suzuki 2.5hp with a spare bottle of fuel.  And I can say categorically that whatever Torqeedo claim, the 1003 is in no way equivalent to a 3hp engine.  Drive it into wind and chop and you find out how gutless it can be - in addition to draining the battery very much faster.

There is also an issue with robustness.  There's a lot of plastic on the Torqeedo and it doesn't stand up well to rough treatment.  Bits tend to crack and snap.  It is not properly marinised, leading to electrical contact problems.  The reduction gearbox is a weak link and if you're unlucky like I was, it made an astonishing amount of whiny noise before it was sent back for an overhaul.  It's now quieter but not silent. My new large battery developed a charging fault and had to go back for repair.

I think Torqeedo with the 1003 had their particular sector to themselves for too long and became complacent and/or distracted by bigger motors and hybrid drives.  ePropulsion have recently gone into direct competition with them and not before time.  Their Spirit 1.0 on the face of it looks like it has a few advantages, including a bit less plastic and a lot less noise.  However, range is still an issue.

If like hrda I was shuttling divers and their heavy kit around at sea, I would stick to a robust and mostly metal petrol outboard for a few more years yet. If on the other hand I want to creep slowly up a river to see the wildlife,  I wouldn't want to be waving oars around and the Torqeedo is better for a bit of stealth. Just don't let the plastic skeg or plastic propeller touch bottom.

One more thing.  Torqeedo have recently been acquired by fellow German company Deutz, who make very large engines for industrial stuff.  I bet that this won't improve Torqeedo's focus on the small end of the motor market.

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On 11/17/2017 at 9:06 AM, dylan winter said:

Most of the time I use it I am ferrying stuff to and from the shore - usually around 200 yards or so.

I'm rarely anchored within 200 yards of shore.

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4 hours ago, dylan winter said:

100 lb thrust trolling motors are now available

what about two of those on the stern of a 25 footer - and maybe ten lead acid batteries, solar panels, an aerogen  and a genset

I would  also have the long shaft 6hp Tohatsu on a bracket.

The boat in question is  one of these

I have come across one with a fekked and seized engine

894533_0-1.jpg

 

 

 

- I would like to be able to motor for 20 miles in calm weather but am hoping that the 6hp and the trolling motors would give me some punch if I needed some short term oomph! - as is likely in scotland.

 

 

 

 

Dylan,

Normally, I'd jump right on your side with this idea but knowing where you're taking that boat, I think it's a bad idea. The North Atlantic is brutal and unforgiving, even though you plan on staying near shore.

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4 hours ago, IStream said:

I'm saving my pennies for the ED-209 coming out next year. 

And I thought you were referring to a new and improved electric OB.<_<

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5 minutes ago, Bull City said:

And I thought you were referring to a new and improved electric OB.<_<

Well it will be new and improved.

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2 hours ago, Alex W said:

Is there a light fuel injected Honda?  The closest thing in function to the Torqueedo is the Honda 2.3, and it isn't quiet. 

I sold my outboard after 3 years of carrying it around and not using it. I just prefer rowing. 

No, I was speaking strictly to Dylan's cockamamie plan to put two trolling motors and a Torqueedo on the transom of that 25' pilothouse. However, I spoke before searching and it turns out the smallest Honda EFI outboard is 40hp. However Suzuki makes a 9.9 EFI that could do the job nicely.

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For what its worth, the software issue I reported above (as experienced by a friend) was on a T purchased this spring, and occurred this summer, so I'm not convinced that all the bugs are worked out.  

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34 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Dylan,

Normally, I'd jump right on your side with this idea but knowing where you're taking that boat, I think it's a bad idea. The North Atlantic is brutal and unforgiving, even though you plan on staying near shore.

I see a small motorsailer on the beach of a lee shore, waves crashing,... 3 electric propellers spinning silently in the wind,...and it's on Youtube. 

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11 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

I see a small motorsailer on the beach of a lee shore, waves crashing,... 3 electric propellers spinning silently in the wind,...and it's on Youtube. 

two electrics at 2 hp a pop and 6 hp from the tohatsu.

10 hp to get off that lee shore - plus sails

 been a sailor for fifty years and never managed to get myself ever blown onto a lee shore . The weather forecasts are great and I doubt that I will ever be more than ten miles from a safe anchorage.   I am really keen to get back to scotland with a boat with inside steering. This idea might be fun .So could anyone with experience of trolling motors guess how long one would run on say 6 lead acid batteries.

D

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3 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Rebuild the engine, it’s fun ...

This. Or fit another one. It's generally the labour cost that makes doing stuff like re-powering a boat outrageously expensive.

FKT

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Could you at least buy Firefly batteries so that you can actually use the battery's rated capacity?

Come on, Dylan. I'm the alt-energiest, tree-huggingist guy in the world. I drove my own home-built EV for two years before Tesla even existed and even I am a little concerned about this.

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17 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

two electrics at 2 hp a pop and 6 hp from the tohatsu.

10 hp to get off that lee shore - plus sails

Assuming you can keep the props in the water when the boat is bouncing up & down - which I doubt.

Assuming the engines keep working when they're being dunked in salt water every 30 seconds - which I doubt.

Pete Hill tried this on BADGER down in the Falklands. After numerous failures, he installed an inboard diesel.

FKT

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25 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

 been a sailor for fifty years and never managed to get myself ever blown onto a lee shore .

Famous last words.

Sorry Dylan, couldn't resist.

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10 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Assuming you can keep the props in the water when the boat is bouncing up & down - which I doubt.

Assuming the engines keep working when they're being dunked in salt water every 30 seconds - which I doubt.

Pete Hill tried this on BADGER down in the Falklands. After numerous failures, he installed an inboard diesel.

FKT

do you have experience with trolling motors?

I have no idea how they behave and how waterprooof they are

as for the stern coming out of the water... that is always a worry. But this is a pretty stumpy little hull with a proper transom

as for a replacement engine ... 6K

D

 

this is badger

Alt_carlyhill.041.jpg

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Just now, Bull City said:

Famous last words.

Sorry Dylan, couldn't resist.

You know I think us sailors sometimes spend so much money making sure that something that is hugely unlikely to happen does not happen.

I know that  the 6hp shoves the 26 foot centaur along at 4.5 knots....

I am assuming that an extra 200 lbs of thrust would  help.

D

 

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I think 6.2 ish max knots under power for a 30sh foot boat is a reasonable minimum. Underpowering the boat even slightly and your target max speed plummets quickly by a knot, maybe 1.5 knots. These are guesstimates as there are so many variables.

In the pilothouse boat pictured above, your only at 25ft and whatever the waterline is, you've got huge windage issues and I think you'd want to NOT skimp on power. Even max power(I would guess for this boat more like 18 hp?)probably gets you 5.5 knots.

I've always thought of the engine as auxiliary and the ability to sail off a lee shore of paramount importance. But there are times, mainly through narrow straits or passages where the current is very strong and tacking through it is probably not going to happen. If you've under powered your boat you'll not be able to punch through a 5knot current. Period. 

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Just now, dylan winter said:

do you have experience with trolling motors?

I have no idea how they behave and how waterprooof they are

as for the stern coming out of the water... that is always a worry. But this is a pretty stumpy little hull with a proper transom

as for a replacement engine ... 6K

D

 

Salt water & electrical motors exposed to the elements in a seaway when you really need them to keep working - what could *possibly* go wrong...... does Torqueedo rate these things for submerged operation?

FWIW I used to manage a marine science support/logistics group. We employed more electronics techs & engineers than we did mechanical and gear techs because the equipment failed far more frequently - and our budget ran into 7 figures annually so we could buy the best we could find.

If the boat is cheap enough 6K sounds reasonable. Bit on the expensive side here - what sort of engine & how many HP is that? I could buy a 30HP Nanni diesel for around $12K AUD I think.

FKT

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3 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

You know I think us sailors sometimes spend so much money making sure that something that is hugely unlikely to happen does not happen.

I know that  the 6hp shoves the 26 foot centaur along at 4.5 knots....

I am assuming that an extra 200 lbs of thrust would  help.

D

 

Point 1 - did you ever do risk analysis? Likelihood of event and consequence of occurrence in a matrix - low likelihood, high consequence means you had better address that situation before it happens. That's exactly what being caught on a lee shore with no effective means of propulsion is. If it does happen, there goes your boat - as Bill Tilman could attest, were he still alive.

Why not leave out the bilge pumps? After all with modern f/g and metal hulls a leak is quite unlikely.....

The 6HP shoved the Centaur along in what wind & sea state? If it was in a flat calm, big deal. That's a convenience not a necessity.

FKT

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Dylan,

              I'm no expert but this sound sketchy to me.  Fisher 25s visually  come with a 30hp diesel, I think...

 I saw a decent looking 1GM10 for sale online recently... might not replace the original but I think I'd rather rely on it than electric... and I do have a small electric motor for my Avon.... 

 

Cheers,

               W. 

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risk analysis -

very good.... of course the most dangerous part of any expedition -  apart from the driving - is the dinghy to  yacht transfers.

No bilge pump on my current boat. A frightened man with a bucket etc etc.

As for losing boats - mine are only insured third party so I am always ready for that.

I think that the lee shore game is a very small risk compared to the the electrics packing up up

It would  still be good to hear from some-one who has experience with these high thrust trolling motors.

I would  also have three motors - so the chances of all three doing down should  be small.

So, does anyone have any idea how long say six 80 amhour batteries would  give me on one of these 100lb thrust trolling motors.

D

 

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4 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

A Fisher 25 would displace hp minimum

http://www.southerly.com/yachts/fisher/25/

I just looked at the stern of that thing.

Just *where* is it going to be possible to fit *3* outboards and still have a functional rudder?

Not to mention that it's going to take some serious work to do it properly, by a man who states that he hates 'fettling' boats. Far less work to either fix the existing engine or fit a new one.

FKT

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The ones I saw for sale mostly have old Volvo’s in them,  those old models are regularly advertised for give away prices as people re engine.

if it’s an early pre2000 series engine, they run forever...

 

 

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1 minute ago, dylan winter said:

risk analysis -

very good.... of course the most dangerous part of any expedition -  apart from the driving - is the dinghy to  yacht transfers.

No bilge pump on my current boat. A frightened man with a bucket etc etc.

As for losing boats - mine are only insured third party so I am always ready for that.

I think that the lee shore game is a very small risk compared to the the electrics packing up up

It would  still be good to hear from some-one who has experience with these high thrust trolling motors.

I would  also have three motors - so the chances of all three doing down should  be small.

So, does anyone have any idea how long say six 80 amhour batteries would  give me on one of these 100lb thrust trolling motors.

D

 

What's the current draw of the motors at full stick? You've got a theoretical 480 AH of current available, in practice half of that if you don't want the batteries to die an early death. Divide A into B and there's your best case answer.

FKT

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some stuff here

 

full blat 50 amps - half  blatt 25 amps

https://www.trollingmotors.net/blogs/selection/86961351-calculating-motor-run-time

It says in the link that a 100 am hour battery would  get you half blatt at 25 amps

4 hours so  my bank of eight batteries with both motors at half speed might get me a day or better under power.

I could live with that.  Plus a genset and the 6hp  if I needed more range.

 

D

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Was initially thinking you'd need 3x your 10hp but threw out a guess of 18hp...should've gone with my first instinct.

Here is a Fisher25 equipped with Volvo Penta 28hp. Pretty cool little boat...but again...I'd think twice before fucking around and limping on an underpowered version.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Fisher-25-Pilothouse-3150991/Maple-Bay/Canada#.WhDEvdTEirUimage.thumb.jpeg.222db4c0d1b95a42fb22d0c69695bff4.jpeg

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:
4 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Rebuild the engine, it’s fun ...

not fun at all

Put it another way?  Have the engine rebuilt or replace it.  More power and greater reliability, as well-advised by the consensus of replies so far.

Multiple low power backups won't do the job and are needless weight.

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7 hours ago, dylan winter said:

100 lb thrust trolling motors are now available

what about two of those on the stern of a 25 footer - and maybe ten lead acid batteries, solar panels, an aerogen  and a genset

I would  also have the long shaft 6hp Tohatsu on a bracket.

The boat in question is  one of these

I have come across one with a fekked and seized engine

894533_0-1.jpg

 

You'd definitely win the COTB thread. Three different motors decorating the transom? Yee haw.

 

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I think it is more a motor boat than a sail boat, wouldn’t want to try to sail my way out of trouble.

I like it, good for cold areas like here or Scotland...

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I have experience with 12V trolling motors.... 

They are excellent for pushing a tinny row boat around an inland lake, silently for hours on a single car battery. 

A heavy, ocean going motorsailor?  Um... please take care Dylan, we like your stuff. 

 

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Think of it in non-electric terms... would anyone think it sane to hitch 2x 2hp and 1x 6hp outboards on the back of a 2-3tonne motorsailor and head around the Scotch coasts?

Or would you go with the sister-ship and a 28hp donkey?

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Dylan, I asked my #3 granddaughter what she thought of your re-powering plan. Here is her reaction:

5a10e50a261cd_Version2.jpg.4e88eb9ffe456378432cf714a0a0d6a0.jpg

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3 hours ago, HFC Hunter said:

Think of it in non-electric terms... would anyone think it sane to hitch 2x 2hp and 1x 6hp outboards on the back of a 2-3tonne motorsailor and head around the Scotch coasts?

Or would you go with the sister-ship and a 28hp donkey?

That’s 5 tonnes

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6 hours ago, dylan winter said:

some stuff here

 

full blat 50 amps - half  blatt 25 amps

https://www.trollingmotors.net/blogs/selection/86961351-calculating-motor-run-time

It says in the link that a 100 am hour battery would  get you half blatt at 25 amps

4 hours so  my bank of eight batteries with both motors at half speed might get me a day or better under power.

I could live with that.  Plus a genset and the 6hp  if I needed more range.

 

D

How do you get over 24 hours? I make it 10 hours maximum, worst case 5. Per motor. If you need to run both motors at full stick to get out of trouble, you've got 100A draw from a usable capacity of 240AH so 2.5 hours.

The only way you can run that 480AH of battery close to dead flat and not kill them stone dead very quickly is to use lithium batteries. Now work out the cost of the batteries, 2 electric engines and the sophisticated charging system needed to keep those batteries in good condition and see what it adds up to.

And even then you still only get 24 hours on a single engine. Did you ever bother to read the battery threads here? If so, it sure isn't obvious.

My friend's 40HP Nanni diesel pushing a 15 tonne sailboat burns 1.5 litres/hour in a dead calm and 4 litres/hour in a seaway so 24 hours motoring burns 36 litres of diesel and they can keep that up for 10 days if necessary. A 30HP diesel in one of these Fishers might burn 2-3 litres/hour indefinitely and produce far more thrust, a lot lower in the water column where it's useful, and with a protected engine.

But by all means ignore all the engineering advice you're getting. Some people simply have to learn from personal experience.

FKT

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I don’t understand how you are going to charge those big batteries Dylan.

There is no way to keep them charged up in a cold climate with solar.

Other options are plug in or a generator.....

I would happily kick in to your fund if you need help to rebuild or remotor, and maybe we could maybe find some old retired geezer who knows how to fix things to help out ...

You are a national treasure after all, we all benefit from your travels, and would like to see you come home safely.

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15 hours ago, dylan winter said:

two electrics at 2 hp a pop and 6 hp from the tohatsu.

10 hp to get off that lee shore - plus sails

 been a sailor for fifty years and never managed to get myself ever blown onto a lee shore . The weather forecasts are great and I doubt that I will ever be more than ten miles from a safe anchorage.   I am really keen to get back to scotland with a boat with inside steering. This idea might be fun .So could anyone with experience of trolling motors guess how long one would run on say 6 lead acid batteries.

D

I was just having a little fun, Dylan! :) My experience with stern hung propeller spinners on sailboats is not the power, but the placement on the stern as opposed to below the boat.

You have a well founded fear of engines (your vid of the engine in slug haunts me,...). I get that. You should wait for the right Fisher with a good engine. 

Getting a Fisher with a seized engine could be a good move for someone who would feel comfortable swapping another engine in (that would be me). Any sailboat under power in adverse conditions is hobbled. An outboard only hobbles it more. 

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8 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I don’t understand how you are going to charge those big batteries Dylan.

There is no way to keep them charged up in a cold climate with solar.

Other options are plug in or a generator.....

I would happily kick in to your fund if you need help to rebuild or remotor, and maybe we could maybe find some old retired geezer who knows how to fix things to help out ...

You are a national treasure after all, we all benefit from your travels, and would like to see you come home safely.

Excellent points.

here are a few thoughts.

charging...

sailing in scotland in the summer offers amazingly long days - it starts getting light at 3am and stays light until 11pm. In the summer I tend to sail around an area from my base on a two or three month mooring.  - maybe motoring for two hours a day before the wind kicks in or when it dies at night. I tend to sail with the wind or with the tide if I can. No deadlines. sailing time when alone  can be ten hours - when with Jill that is more like four hours.

In the summer I tend to sail for a week on and a week off so I would hope that a week of long scottish summer days would mean that the batteries would be full when I arrive.The fisher has a lot of flat space for solar panels so that is a help.

In the winter I am generally marina hopping with just the occasional night out on the hook - so charging would not be a problem.

I could add an aerogen but am not keen on them. I would have a genset of last resort for when I was really stymied.  Again I would not like to use it.

I have been using the torqeedo in the 22 foot trailer sailer and I am learning that an extra 50 lbs of quiet thrust can mean the difference between fetching at three knots and fetching at 5. I am prepared to add a little bit of thrust from the Torqeedo whereas I would not want to start an outboard or an inboard. Now the Minstrel is not a Fisher 25 and these old fishers will not be sparkling performers so  a few quiet lbs of thrust which came in from the solar panels when I was not on the boat last week might improve passage times a bit. 

For days when I needed power for long periods then I could use the Tohatsu and jerry cans.  I would hope that there would be lots of sailing days when I used just the two transom mounted trolling motors.

Then there comes the problem of putting three props across the stern of one of these things. Take a look at the transom and the minn Kota mounts.

I would plan to have a stout outboard mount that could be the main place for the Tohatsu (which I already have).

The two trolling motors could go on the other side if I needed all three motors  - they have long shafts and I am confident that they would be in the main flow of water - as would the prop of the Tohatsu. On days when I did not need the Tohatsu then I could put one trolling motor on the bracket and one on the transom.

Windage on the chunky motorsailer  is obviously a problem - my main snag will be if I end up with four hours upwind to a safe harbour - that is when a nicely installed 25 hp thunking diesel would be a lovely and comforting thing to have. However, it is a big price to pay for arranging things so badly as to be bashing into a four hour headwind and chop.

I would obviously do my best to avoid being in this position _ I have always been more than happy to turn around and go somewhere easier. the most dangerous thing on a yacht is a calendar - and a deadline. I can generally avoid these. I dump the boat all over the shop and hitch back to the car.

Then we have the much feared the lee shore scenario in the event of a blow.  These boats go pretty well close hauled under  genoa and mizzen. They are slippery little hulls and theslab sides can be a small help when close hauled (or at least not such a handicap - in some circumstances you can sail with the dodgers and cabin sides on a standard yacht). I think that with 6hp from the Tohatsu on the stern then at least on one tack i could make some excellent progress. On the other tack I should have 200lbs of thrust from the trolling motors. Or I can point the bow into the waves, turn up the dials on the electric ones and the throttle on the Tohatsu and hoe that I( can make progress to windward.

Dylan

 

 

 

167637_BoatPic_Main.jpg

 

313471-northshore-fisher-25806073_thb.jp

 

image1.jpeg?w=288&h=384

 

img_20141015_145502844_hdr.jpg

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Dylan, I admire your resourcefulness and creativity but you're about to make a big mistake. If you're going to get this boat, either fix or replace the inboard or find another example that had a decent motor. If you want quiet thrust under easy conditions, there's nothing stopping you from putting your Torqueedo on the transom and using it instead but at least you'll still have a proper auxiliary for those times when it's the best option, including charging your Torqueedo battery. 

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38 minutes ago, IStream said:

Dylan, I admire your resourcefulness and creativity but you're about to make a big mistake. If you're going to get this boat, either fix or replace the inboard or find another example that had a decent motor. If you want quiet thrust under easy conditions, there's nothing stopping you from putting your Torqueedo on the transom and using it instead but at least you'll still have a proper auxiliary for those times when it's the best option, including charging your Torqueedo battery. 

Plus providing heat and hot water.

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I think Dylan has come to terms with his need for shelter. Let's not jump all the way to actual comfort just yet, you might spook him.

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Dylan, I know you have had your eye on a Fisher 25 for some time.  I think it is a perfect choice for your mission.

Sell your dog.  Sell your body on the street.  Sell a video of you selling your body on the street.

Do anything to get a proper diesel. 

Steve 

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22 hours ago, olaf hart said:

The ones I saw for sale mostly have old Volvo’s in them,  those old models are regularly advertised for give away prices as people re engine.

if it’s an early pre2000 series engine, they run forever...

 

 

The access looks good for a 25'er. I think this panel in the sole is in the wheelhouse. If you could drop the same engine in (assuming a serviceable used one is available), it could be an economical swap. 6300197_20170714072101509_1_LARGE.jpg?t=

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5 hours ago, IStream said:

Dylan, I admire your resourcefulness and creativity but you're about to make a big mistake. If you're going to get this boat, either fix or replace the inboard or find another example that had a decent motor. If you want quiet thrust under easy conditions, there's nothing stopping you from putting your Torqueedo on the transom and using it instead but at least you'll still have a proper auxiliary for those times when it's the best option, including charging your Torqueedo battery. 

This. People far more skilled in building boat stuff than Dylan have tried this and failed.

I actually can't see a lot of space on that hull to fit outboards anyway, not without some engineering to deal with the rudder issue. Also if only running on one engine at a draw of 25A/hour, you'll need 300W of solar at optimum to replace that in the same amount of time - ie 1 hour running equals 1 hour to recharge. The long days are not really that relevant - we have long days here in summer (not as long) and the solar gain in the early periods is bugger-all unless you align the panels to the sun, in which case it's a fraction more than bugger-all. The man making the 'Cruising the Cut' vlogs on YouTube has some figures on solar gain in England, it's not great and he has a *lot* more cabin top area to play with. I think a 250 amp 12V panel takes up about 1.2m x 0.5m of space. Probably need 4 of them.

IMO it'd make far more sense to couple a 5HP 240V 3 phase motor to the existing prop shaft, hook it to a variable frequency drive and a big inverter. At least all that stuff would be out of the weather and driving a prop set well down in the water. I still wouldn't do it myself though because the energy density of current batteries sucks and so does the recharge time (ignoring lithium batteries) plus the need for a generator to actually recharge in a realistic time frame.

FKT

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17 hours ago, Panope said:

Do anything to get a proper diesel. 

I think this bit of sailorly wisdom overlooks an obvious and good solution:

A gasoline inboard. They're a heck of a lot cheaper. They' don't last as long? You all have seen Dylan. A properly maintained one will easily outlast him.

I know sailors don't like them but most inboards in boats are gasoline powered for some good reasons.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I think this bit of sailorly wisdom overlooks an obvious and good solution:

A gasoline inboard. They're a heck of a lot cheaper. They' don't last as long? You all have seen Dylan. A properly maintained one will easily outlast him.

I know sailors don't like them but most inboards in boats are gasoline powered for some good reasons.

The problem with gasoline in this case, is that the boat that Dylan is looking at most likely has a drip deisel furnace.  If it does not, it should because nothing is better when holed up in some rainy cove for days on end.

Does a gasoline furnace exist that does not require electricity to operate?

Steve

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My solution to cold is to avoid it. I'd say that for the difference in price between a gas and diesel inboard, the heating problem should be solved with change to spare. Don't ask me how. Keep the diesel furnace? Get another kind? Head south until the need disappears? I'd go with the third one.

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Having seen the stern of the boat, I have no idea how one would mount and outboard AND two trolling motors without interfering with the rudder.

Dylan, if you must go electric I advise removing the dead engine and installing an electric motor on the shaft along with your large bank of batteries. It's been done and is a proven design. 

I can't imagine that the cost of a single, 10hp electric motor and controller would cost more than two 100lb. thrust trolling motors.  Have a metal shop fabricate a mount for it and a coupler/adapter to connect it to the shaft.  This should not be anywhere near the expense of a new diesel + installation.

I've been researching the Firefly carbon foam batteries. They are group 31 and 216 amp hours that you can actually use. They cost 2x as much, but they are like having 2 batteries so the cost evens out. They will stand up to the abuse that you are