couchsurfer

TF10 foiler... what could possibly go wrong!?.....

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...from FP....  ''Designed from scratch as a super fun foiler for mere mortals''     

Yah, sure,,, an idiot proof $200,000 foiler,, foils at 8 knots,,,,, all fun until a seto'spurts dumps it in 12!   ...a la Wally.  :mellow: 

 

                                        yah, Dug,,, I know.... took the words right outa yer mouth  :lol:

 

Big Pimpin’

This is the new foiling TF10 trimaran. A high-tech carbon fest, allowing sailors to foil easily in around 8 knots of boatspeed! Designed from scratch as a super fun foiler for mere mortals, we believe that goal has been accomplished!

About this video: A small crew from DNA recently travelled to Barcelona for the new foiling TF10 trimaran to be tested by a jury of 12 European sailing magazines for the 2018 European Yacht of the Year competition – the TF10 is nominated in the category Special Yacht. After the jury testing for EYOTY, we kept on sailing with other media and prospects for their impressions.

Our mission to sail the TF10 trimaran in Barcelona was surrounded by turmoil as the local Catalonia region was passing a resolution for independence from Spain at that time. Low flying helicopters and a big presence from the local military police added a dimension for sure.

Sailing in indigo blue Mediterranean waters with stunning backgrounds was absolutely fabulous. This video captures some of the sailing experience and as the video clearly shows, we had cloudy and rainy days too. The sun came out as soon as the video team went home. Of course.

Learn more about the TF-10 and DNA Performance Sailing here. [and look for Clean’s boat review shortly! -ed]

November 17th, 2017

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2 minutes ago, Vorticity said:

Try $500,000, not 200k.

...yah, well,,, far beyond those 'average' sailors in either case.   :mellow:

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One thing is for sure, it's not for an every day sailor. You've got to be semi pro at least

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4 hours ago, jorge said:

One thing is for sure, it's not for an every day sailor. You've got to be semi pro at least

How do you come to that ill informed conclusion? The boat has been designed for "every day sailors". There is a strict rule on owner drivers and the stated aim is that it is a corinthian class. You should read the class rules on the matter. There are strict limits pros who need to be approved by the class, paid the agreed class rate and you have to swap pro after every day with the other boats so nobody gets an advantage of "buying" or bringing along the best pro. The idea behind the class is that anybody who is able to sail a non foiling tri will be able to sail this boat and it was owner driven from the start. A group of owners (every day sailors) are behind the idea and they went to M&M to design and build a foiler for everyday sailors. They have made it very user friendly with "4 point" foiling and not needing to raise and lower boards on each tack. If the boat needs to be sailed by "semi pros", there will be some lawsuits flying around as those behind the class will not have got the boat they commissioned.

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I love how the FP forgot to mention that they dropped the rig at the end of this day of sailing a few weeks ago. 

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Why pro's onboard? It's just another flying boat! A pretty cool one, for sure. But DNA know what they are doing, so I guess theyve made it sailable. 

In the a-class almost everybody will be able to make the latest generation fly. It requires some training, but it's rather easy. In less the 8-9 m/s, though, above it's gets a little tense because of the speed.

I guess it'll be the same with this boat. 3 sails require some more coordination, but with a good helmsman and a good trimmer all should bed good.

And a petty they broke the mast, but it happens now and then, also on new boats.

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Well Lars that's what I was meaning with "semi pro sailor"  not precisely getting paid for. To sail one of those you need practice, time on the water, training. That means time, and time is money, that's what I was trying to say. The word "every day sailor is tricky", or ,that is what it really  means, able to sail every day. Not everyone is able to do that. (I'm not complaining lucky for those who can)

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But that's the same for any boat, you need to practice to get fast! 

And this one can be sailed by newcomers, they can even choose not to fly by setting the foils in neutral, and get back to the harbour. 

I've only been doing a-cats and there is no need to sail it everyday. If you know how to trapeze and helm, you can probably fly it right out of the box. But more time on the water always works. And it's probably the same with this tf10.

 

 

 

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People see the word "foiler" and automatically conclude that you need some special skills that are beyond the abilities of most sailors. That is wrong. There are foilers that do need that extra skill set that can only be got through many hours of sailing, but more and more we are seeing foilers that are relatively easy to sail and which the "average" sailor can manage. The TF10 is one of those foilers which can be sailed b y the "average' sailor, by which I mean non professional owner/drivers who haven't spent their lives dedicated to sailing. 

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A Class Sailor:  Yes indeed!  A few minutes instruction and with headset-comms anybody can foil on most of these boats.  Maybe not a Moth.

Observation:  many dinghy sailors do not know how easy it is to trap.  Likewise, many cat sailors do not know about dinghy hiking and zero-cleat sheeting.

My 2 cents.

Still learning - and having a ball with it!

Charlie

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16 hours ago, soma said:

Does every boat come with Mischa as standard equipment?

LOL.  Pretty funny.  That could maybe be said of the DNA line!

And what a bonus he would be!!

 

PS - How did you make out with your boat and the mess post hurricanes?  Nice thing you guys were able to do to try to help.  Hope you have a great holiday with the fam...

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Thats not the last downvote for wessie-just the beginning..........

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47 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Wess, what did you do to DL to deserve this last downvote? 

The steady stream of stream of self aggrandizement from the clown of caps and colors is funny and I figure a down vote from Doggie is a badge of honor, Rasp.  I don't exactly follow this stuff but I think all my negatives are from him but still somehow I think I will just barely be able to find a way to struggle forward, LOL.  I think I can even happily go sailing unaffected by it all...  perhaps we could return the the topic at hand.  I at least prefer not to type re our windmill tilting troll.  :lol:

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18 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

................ but more and more we are seeing foilers that are relatively easy to sail and which the "average" sailor can manage. The TF10 is one of those foilers which can be sailed b y the "average' sailor, by which I mean non professional owner/drivers who haven't spent their lives dedicated to sailing. 

really now...if you look into the world of sailing,, and define 'average sailor' you'd have some guy that maybe sailed a dinghy as a kid,, maybe raced for a while,, possibly spent some time as rail meat...then got busy in the business world and family, never to sail for 20 years..... then he hit the big times on bitcoin or gawdknowswhat... then sees this hot hot people's foiler,, just pop down a measly half mill and yer all good to go,,, a simple way to reclaim his youth!

   I've seen it with measly skiffs plenty enough,,a couple of outings in 4 or 5 knots, nothing to write home about,, then a fun one in 8-9,,'we really flew!'     But unfortunately mr secondwind doesn't realize the exponential increase in power he'll see for just 3 knots more wind,, he let's go of the paid $ailor who was showing him the ropes ....and doesn't make it past the end of the dock before he's chopped some kayaker in three.          It's only a matter of time.   :wacko:

 

On 11/19/2017 at 7:18 AM, Lars Schrøder d 13 said:

 

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Average sailors in your neck of the woods must be what the rest of the world call beginners.  I know several dozen amateur sailors that would handle this thing quite well.  Most never foiled before but would pick it up very quickly.

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Pardon me, I do not want to start a discussion about it. But I guess your known amateur sailors, capable of buying  one of these, are more than average sailors.

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I do get very pissed off with people who have never sailed foilers talking shit about stuff they really have no idea about. If you own a 4KSB then maybe you aren't ready for the TF10, but if you are used to steering a decent sports boat or bigger race boat, you will be able to sail the TF10. You do not need to be a "semi pro" to sail this boat.There is this whole myth been built up about foiling that really isn't justified. 

4 hours ago, couchsurfer said:

really now...if you look into the world of sailing,, and define 'average sailor' you'd have some guy that maybe sailed a dinghy as a kid,, maybe raced for a while,, possibly spent some time as rail meat...then got busy in the business world and family, never to sail for 20 years..... then he hit the big times on bitcoin or gawdknowswhat... then sees this hot hot people's foiler,, just pop down a measly half mill and yer all good to go,,, a simple way to reclaim his youth!

That is not what I would call an "average sailor". What you describe is very in the parts of the world I have lived. To me, what you describe sounds like somebody who is basically a beginner in terms of helming performance boats. If he is your definition of "average sailor, then maybe this boat isn't for him but that still doesn't support the original comment that this is a boat for only "semi pros".

I will concede that if you haven't owned a boat before, this is unlikely to be your first choice, but if you have and are a competent helm of a boat that is in any way sporty, you will be able to sail this boat. You do not need to be a semi pro as jorge suggested. It is time for people to realise that foiling boats are not just for the incredibly skilled and gifted world class sailors. I don't mean to be derogatory (totally the opposite) but Charlie Mayer has shown us and told us from his own experience that foiling is accessible to most people if the boat is right and in the case of the FT10, the boat is right.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

The steady stream of stream of self aggrandizement from the clown of caps and colors is funny and I figure a down vote from Doggie is a badge of honor, Rasp.  I don't exactly follow this stuff but I think all my negatives are from him but still somehow I think I will just barely be able to find a way to struggle forward, LOL.  I think I can even happily go sailing unaffected by it all...  perhaps we could return the the topic at hand.  I at least prefer not to type re our windmill tilting troll.  :lol:

You boys really need to put DouG on ignore..... the last 6 months have been so much better without him  .... free yourselves... imagine a DouG less world

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2 hours ago, jorge said:

Pardon me, I do not want to start a discussion about it. But I guess your known amateur sailors, capable of buying  one of these, are more than average sailors.

Yes.... Most sailors I know sail high performance dinghies or Multihulls and cross over into big boats.  Some even own big boats as well.  These guys are all amateur club sailors.

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On 11/20/2017 at 8:54 AM, A Class Sailor said:

People see the word "foiler" and automatically conclude that you need some special skills that are beyond the abilities of most sailors. That is wrong. There are foilers that do need that extra skill set that can only be got through many hours of sailing, but more and more we are seeing foilers that are relatively easy to sail and which the "average" sailor can manage. The TF10 is one of those foilers which can be sailed b y the "average' sailor, by which I mean non professional owner/drivers who haven't spent their lives dedicated to sailing. 

Just wondering what you're basing your opinion on. Have you:

  1. Sailed the boat
  2. Know someone who has sailed the boat
  3. Watched someone else sail it
  4. Read the brochure

It may be relatively easy to go from a floating or C board A Class to full foiling, but how about someone who's never sailed an A Class or catamaran trying to foil straight up? That's what you need to contend with. The TF10 also needs a crew of 3, all working together, particularly mainsheet and helm.

The video doesn't show a lot of stable foiling, the longest clip is about 13 seconds and it's fairly unstable in heave. Given the benign conditions, I'll bet this thing is a handful in 15 to 20 kn with a bit of chop. The bear away at the top mark is going to be a thrill. It might be easier to sail than other foilers, but it is not something that a novice can jump on with a couple of mates and just go foiling.

I'm also not impressed with having the crew seated on the windward float. They need to be able to respond very quickly, sitting in a seat mitigates against that. It's just not the sort of boat people should sit comfortably thinking everything can be set and forget.

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5 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Yes.... Most sailors I know sail high performance dinghies or Multihulls and cross over into big boats.  Some even own big boats as well.  These guys are all amateur club sailors.

I think you need to remember the difference between the definitions of 'amateur' and 'novice'. Just because someone has never received money to sail, doesn't mean that they are a novice and unqualified to drive a TF 10. I only know a little bit firsthand about the boat, and whether or not it will necessarily be appropriate for this particular class of 'amateurs', but I do know plenty about the conglomerate of owners who've ordered the first 5 TF10's:

-All of them have indeed 'dedicated their lives to sailing' (quoted from someone above), albeit in a recreational sense of the word. All their free time, energy, and a great deal of their spare cash... and all have decades of racing and thousands of miles under their belt

-All of them have owned/still own some seriously high performance race boats, and to my knowledge most of them  have been at the helm of every one of their race boats for every regatta, for decades; boats ranging from beach cats to Melges 32s to Marstrom 32s to TP52s to Gunboats to Fast 40's to Maxis.

-At least a few that I know spend tens of hours per week getting involved with their crews and being intimately involved with the boat and the race program, and are pretty 'with-it' as far as the design, the equipment, the projects/engineering, etc

-Some of these guys would destroy many of my buddies (pros/boat captains/race 'mercenaries' ) in a match race in a dinghy, and some have gained a pretty good reputation as skilled helmsman behind some powerful wheels.

Sooo.. again, not arguing for or against the boat and/or its 'fit-for-purpose' here, just trying to clear up the facts about who will actually be driving these things (at least the initial ones!)

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Who will sail these boats, sailors with experience.  

Amateur = not professional.  Does not earn any income from sailing.  

Novice = beginner

 

A novice also won't jump straight onto a skiff, apparent wind cat or a racing keel boat and sail it safely. 

 

How hard is it to foil, I foiled the first time I got out in breeze strong enough to get up.  I am getting a better and better at it the more I go out.  I have only sailed in breeze strong enough to foil, 5 times now.   How hard is it to foil well...... I would imagine not even as close to as hard as many think.  Just need time on water getting to know how the boat reacts.

 

 

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

Just wondering what you're basing your opinion on. Have you:

  1. Sailed the boat
  2. Know someone who has sailed the boat
  3. Watched someone else sail it
  4. Read the brochure

Fair comment. I can only base my comments on your points 2,3 and 4. I haven't sailed the boat myself.

3 hours ago, RobG said:

It might be easier to sail than other foilers, but it is not something that a novice can jump on with a couple of mates and just go foiling.

Where has anybody suggested that this boat is one that novices could jump on with a couple of mates. There is a big gap between "semi pro" and novice, and the debate is whether you need to be a semi pro to sail one. I argue that you do not.

LotsO'knots

Thanks for your comments. The question is whether the consortium behind the boats are semi pro. Considering how the class has spent a fair bit of wordage in their rules discussing pros, semi pros and Corinthian sailors, I am pretty sure they don't consider themselves semi pro. 

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Where has anybody suggested that this boat is one that novices could jump on with a couple of mates. There is a big gap between "semi pro" and novice, and the debate is whether you need to be a semi pro to sail one. I argue that you do not.

 

A bit of hyperbole. The marketing for all types of foilers seems to show them in very moderate conditions, which I guess is marketing 101, but I'd like to see a decent review in a range of conditions. 

Given a chance of a ride, I'd be there with bells on. ;-)

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11 hours ago, RobG said:

 

A bit of hyperbole. The marketing for all types of foilers seems to show them in very moderate conditions, which I guess is marketing 101, but I'd like to see a decent review in a range of conditions. 

Given a chance of a ride, I'd be there with bells on. ;-)

But are you a semi pro?:P

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18 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Fair comment. I can only base my comments on your points 2,3 and 4. I haven't sailed the boat myself.

Where has anybody suggested that this boat is one that novices could jump on with a couple of mates. There is a big gap between "semi pro" and novice, and the debate is whether you need to be a semi pro to sail one. I argue that you do not.

LotsO'knots

Thanks for your comments. The question is whether the consortium behind the boats are semi pro. Considering how the class has spent a fair bit of wordage in their rules discussing pros, semi pros and Corinthian sailors, I am pretty sure they don't consider themselves semi pro. 

They do not. There is however, to my knowledge, at least one professional boat captain (from one of the owners' other yachts) involved in the build & spec. I'm not sure whether you'd call him a build manager, owners rep, or just a consultant. Its a far shot from a standard boat captain/build manager in a typical bespoke super yacht, presumably because the Holland peeps are keeping things pretty close to the chest on this one. I also can tell you that there will be some pro crew involved in the sailing, upkeep, and logistics of the program on at least a few of these. I don't know what the class rules & regs specify as far as racing, but these owners will not be turning their own wrenches.

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2 hours ago, LotsO'Knots said:

They do not. There is however, to my knowledge, at least one professional boat captain (from one of the owners' other yachts) involved in the build & spec. I'm not sure whether you'd call him a build manager, owners rep, or just a consultant. Its a far shot from a standard boat captain/build manager in a typical bespoke super yacht, presumably because the Holland peeps are keeping things pretty close to the chest on this one. I also can tell you that there will be some pro crew involved in the sailing, upkeep, and logistics of the program on at least a few of these. I don't know what the class rules & regs specify as far as racing, but these owners will not be turning their own wrenches.

The likely crew for #6 know what they're doing with performance multihulls of this size too. Of course I'm sure they'd appreciate a bit of Mischa guidance too! Reckon he'll just happen to be in Aus this time next year too. 

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So, are these going to be sailing in Newport this summer?

will they be at the Annual Regatta in june.., or the race week in july?

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One is already here. Not sure on the schedule of #2 but to my understanding, there will be a maximum of 2 ready to sail for the Summer events due to the delays caused by the failure of the initial rig design.

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1 hour ago, LotsO'Knots said:

the failure of the initial rig design

i guess i missed that part...

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Yes two masts dropped during testing so they went back to the drawing board. Same thing on the first generation boards.

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1 hour ago, LotsO'Knots said:

Yes two masts dropped during testing so they went back to the drawing board. Same thing on the first generation boards.

2 masts?

i am pretty close to one of the projects and only saw one..

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My knowledge is only second hand - you are probably righter than me. Perhaps it was x2 masts that were redesigned after the first one fell (weren't there two already up at that point?)?

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TF10 HULLS #1 AND #2 SAILING IN NEWPORT, RI
This is an exciting time for the TF10 project as the first 2 boats have made their way to Newport, RI for testing and training. These impressive machines have put up equally impressive boat speed numbers - details to follow! Visit the TF10 Gallery to view images of the build and new images under sail. Be sure to check back as our progress on sail and boat testing continues. Want to see a TF10 in person? May training dates and locations to be announced.

 
VISIT THE GALLERY
 
image.jpg
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That thing is WAY out of the water. How is pitch controlled? Wand, rudder appendages, or other?

 

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TF10 . Sportsboat of the Year  Yachts and Yachting

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The boat looks awesome! 

Not doubting Morelli & Melvin's abilities.. but i was wondering how this boat will perform upwind without a daggerboard.

I know the game on this machine will be VMG (and one design racing).. but will the float foils be enough to allow it to point high enough?

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5 hours ago, can-UK said:

Not doubting Morelli & Melvin's abilities.. but i was wondering how this boat will perform upwind without a daggerboard.

Its got two!

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

Its got two!

yeah i get that :) but other foiling tri's.. maserati, gitana..etc retain a daggerboard.

Just wondering if the relatively small float foils will allow it to point high without sliding sideways too much.

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I suspect it depends how high they ride. They might have to fly lower upwind so that enough of vertical part of the board is in the water. It's no different from a cat like the GC32 and I'm pretty sure these go upwind fine...

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The Z's work fine upwind and down. No additional centerboard needed on the A-cat's and now Nacra 17s.  

Upwind foiling from a picture on Catsailing News:AclassAusNats2017_017.jpg

The thing that works well with the Zs is that as leeway develops, the leeward board gets more loaded and the windward board gets less loaded, increasing righting moment.  A centerboard would hurt that cause and reduce righting moment.  

 

 

 

 

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On 5/1/2018 at 11:48 PM, mookiesurfs said:

That thing is WAY out of the water. How is pitch controlled? Wand, rudder appendages, or other?

 

I thought it has a stability control computer and actuators on control surfaces to make it simple?

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No stability computer but it does have electric actuators on rudders and daggerboards.  Pitch control is passive. Its similar to an A cat.  The longer wheel base (distance between foil and rudder) helps slow down the motions. The bigger the boat the easier it gets.

4 hours ago, Sailabout said:

I thought it has a stability control computer and actuators on control surfaces to make it simple?

 

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On 5/22/2018 at 9:13 PM, Sailabout said:

I thought it has a stability control computer and actuators on control surfaces to make it simple?

You might be thinking about the F4 ( ex Gunboat G4 )

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47 minutes ago, Justaquickone said:

You might be thinking about the F4 ( ex Gunboat G4 )

The F4 was different from the G4. Not massively different, but meaningfully different  

 

I checked out the TF10's yesterday. Wicked boat, can't wait to see them on the water. 

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8 hours ago, soma said:

The F4 was different from the G4. Not massively different, but meaningfully different  

 

I checked out the TF10's yesterday. Wicked boat, can't wait to see them on the water. 

I realise that Soma , i was just being a little lazy with my post .

Yep gotta agree, the TF 10 does look like a wicked boat  and taken up by a Yacht Culb I would never have expected to .

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:40 PM, Justaquickone said:

I realise that Soma , i was just being a little lazy with my post .

Yep gotta agree, the TF 10 does look like a wicked boat  and taken up by a Yacht Culb I would never have expected to .

It only took a C-class regatta on their front lawn to convince them that multihulls were not the devil's whip.

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Check out newest multihulls world magazine ( #160) nice test of  the TF10 

Boats 1,2,3  are in Newport US , boat 4,5,6 under construction , delivery every month scheduled !2018-05-25_21-33-22.thumb.jpg.7afe60c5dc8324329cda8ad1c8ea1e5f.jpg

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, blunted said:

It only took a C-class regatta on their front lawn to convince them that multihulls were not the devil's whip.

I would imagine there were a few ruffled blazers when the fleet rocked up .

Obviously left a good impression  with the establishment for which we are all gratefull for .

You would have to be seriously impaired or dead not to be moved by the  spectical  of a C class , let alone a fleet of them !

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:36 AM, Justaquickone said:

I would imagine there were a few ruffled blazers when the fleet rocked up .

Obviously left a good impression  with the establishment for which we are all gratefull for .

You would have to be seriously impaired or dead not to be moved by the  spectical  of a C class , let alone a fleet of them !

I'm sure it was our post-prize giving entertainment that put them most at ease.

520203683_2010_LITTLE_AC-MATCH_RACING-DAY_TWO__AWARDS-MEREDITH_BLOCK_PHOTO26.jpg.d38f2d82cdf02406582c4b8adcf73e4e.jpg

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Well I got to sail this boat for the last few days in Newport RI and I can happily report its a great little boat.

We had it foiling downhill in anything over 6.5 knots TWS and steady breeze.  A bit more breeze than that makes for nice steady foiling once everything is dialed in. We had one, two and three boat testing happening at times and managed to get all the boats working in the same performance envelope.

In light air upwind we had code zeros working nicely below six knots, then over to the Jib. even in 7 knots of breeze speeds uphill were in the range of 10-11 knots tacking through 90 degrees. As the breeze came up we were regularly doing 13's uphill with good angles. That's with four good sized guys on the boat.

Foiling compared to more sporty boats is smooth and controlled. There's certainly some work to do on technique but sailing with foil settings close to the design tables delivered the promised performance much of the time. Lift off could be done as low as a boat speed of 15.5, but 16 plus was a more reliable lift off speed. That having been said, when it was marginal, one could do "high lift fraction" sailing where say 50% of the mass of the boat was on foils, reducing wetted surface and you could easily skate along at 17 knots downhill in 7 knots of breeze very smoothly. As the breeze comes up just a shade more its pretty easy to get up on foils and stay there. Obviously time in the boat will deliver better and better results for skippers and crews alike as they get used to the boat's preferences.

Coming down off the foils, even unexpectedly was easy going to say the least. You might get a splash over the bow and spill your cocktail but that was about as bad as I experienced in the few days I was on the water. Compared to some beasts I have sailed this was positively benign. Between the mass of the boat, which carries momentum and the freeboard and lateral surface area at the waterline, I felt no closer to death on a splash down then I might crossing the street after rush hour in the big City.

There is of course a few details still to be sorted. Like put a slightly larger outboard on it and refine some of the reefing details as well. Up at 13 knots true a reefed jib is very good and North of 16 reefing the main is the way to go. I suspect the reefable jib will go away to be replaced by a J1 and a J2. Broadly speaking however the design of the boat is bang on the money and the construction is well sorted and detailed by Holland composites. The new mast will need some serious abuse to break. The only complaint I heard was the choice of winches in the cockpit. Crews are still working out mechanics in maneuvers but big leaps were made even in the time I was there.

For a boat that set out to be a "gentleman's foiler" I'd say it's hitting the goals. You can drive from the cockpit or up on the bench in total comfort. Things get more athletic the further you move forward as pit and front man have to do most of the grinding and humping the foils up and down. The pit guy should be prepared to do a whack of grinding in any kind of variable conditions downhill as the AWA can move around a lot.

For a lot less money you can get around the course a good deal faster than a TP52 both up and down with a fraction of the crew. it wasn't unusual to be going 2.5 times the windspeed down hill sailing through decent angles. We saw 28 knots a few times as did the other boats when the breeze was at 12-13 or so. the whole ting folds up on a trailer and can be rolled or craned into the water easily.

Personally I look forward to sailing these things more in the future. Pete Melvin and his boys have done a fine job designing this little Yacht and the NYYC has shown some daring in seeding and promoting this particular development in the sport.

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Oh yes I forgot, the push button actuators on the foils angles are dreamy after having spent years ripping my arms off pulling too small strings to move foils around under load. Four rocker buttons handle all the fun for the two main foils and the two rudders. 

Some boats are playing around with some distributed buttons for the crew to use from the rail and there was talk of making a wrist or forearm based version of the control panel so you can tweak the foils from where ever you are on the yacht.

All very civilized. A 120 Volt shore power cable plugs neatly into a cockpit port when the day ends to recharge the system over night. It also has two bunks below, one up forward and another under the cockpit so you can keep your mistress on board or do some light coastal racing in some decent shape. Having done two Mac's on a turbo Melges 32 I can assure you I would take the TF10 over a Melges any day for some kind of distance race. Faster and more comfortable for sure. The hiking benches are the bomb.

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Nice report Blunted, I was begging to wonder as I saw the M32's out in Newport but no TF10. Are they doing the Newport Unlimited multihull regatta in a few weeks?

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Sorry I have no idea what the short term plan is for yachting. Each program is marching to their own drum currently. I just got jetted in for a spell to help dial in the program.

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Mahalo blundted for such a usable report.  Did you get any swell to play in?  I'm curious how they would do in rough/stronger conditions like we get in Hawaii?

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We didn't spend too much time in waves but we did get "outdoors" for a bit.

Seemed easy enough, swells were pretty spread out so upwind you are just sailing along happily enough through them. Downhill on the foils if they are big enough the boat contours, or gently follows the up and down of the wave, but not entirely, only about half the height of the wave. It's a multivariate problem, wavelength, wave period, wave amplitude, angle to wave, steady flight or not, wind strength. Regardless, we didn't find anything objectionable about sailing in long swells.

Either way, if they are small enough waves essentially don't exist once you're up and going. A few times in the bay we'd be approaching a big set thrown up by a big cabin cruiser and the correct response is simply to ignore the waves and blast right through them. On the swells, with the right angles, you could also surf them on the foils easily enough.

I always describe foiling to people who have never done it as the Costanza paradigm. Perhaps you remember the Seinfeld episode where George Costanza is just failing at everything so he has a radical idea, simply do everything the opposite of what his gut tells him to. Sure enough he starts doing everything "backwards" and his life gets immeasurably better.

Same for foiling. You're up on foils and a puff hits, what do you do? Channel George and sheet in and step forward, ta-da! you go faster with more control. You come upon some big waves sledding along downhill, what do you do? Sheet in and plow through them like they're not even there, ta-da, nice smooth ride. It's a simple way to explain that lots of foiling is counter-intuitive to a person who has grown up leaning back and easing out in the puffs. Then the light bulbs start to go on.

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1 hour ago, blunted said:

Costanza paradigm

Ha ha ha, fantastic way to illustrate it.

@blunted -- are the control systems providing any limitation / envelope? Say, if the safety envelope for foil rake shrinks as wind and speed increase, is there anything that'll help a crew notice/remember that when wind actually increases?

Hearing Pete Melvin talk, I remember thinking we need (or will soon need) fly-by-wire systems that keep control surfaces within safety parameters, as modern Airbus/Boeings have...

Perhaps not for pros like you, but more mainstream sailors like me.

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Well there is always room for operator error as foil systems are but one part of a complex program. Sail trim and steering are just as big a factor in having a bad day shall we say.

We did have some discussions about the idea of pre-sets for foiling. So lets say we have a default "upwind button". You press it and the foils settle into a reasonable setting for upwind sailing. Likewise you can have a downhill button, that sets things up for the top mark. Then you immediately get to, light, medium and heavy downhill buttons as what you do in 6 knots is no what you do in 20 knots TWS.

I think that expecting a crew to forget they are sailing a foiling boat and not trim it right is a bit soft headed. If you sail these boats you are doing it 90% of the time to race. Racers pay attention to settings, its their job. Is there anything to help them notice the wind is increasing? sure, the speed, the altitude, the different behavior of the boat, the fact that you could hurt yourself or the boat if you don't pay some attention to the gross trim details of operating the boat. A few bad wipeouts has a way of burning the importance of a particular setting into your mind and memory. If you have too much lift on, you know immediately, the boat flies way high then steps sideways and falls back to earth. If you don't have enough, well you simply don't fly.

Currently the boat has a "tack" button, which when you press it mirrors the settings on all four foils at once. Press it and forget it, all the foils move in a few seconds to the new setting while we're all running about turning the boat, it frees up a set of hands at a critical time.

To the extent that the entire system is already fly by wire it lends itself to all manner of software tinkering. From here you very quickly get into the conversation of AI or automation and is the boat sailing itself or are the sailors making the decisions about how to use different elements of the boat in real time. Personally I think presets make sense for this boat and from a class rule perspective they could be helpful for doing things like limiting differential. Differential being the difference in AOA between the windward foil and the leeward foil. You can set your windward rudder to apply downforce which creates righting moment and makes you go faster, you tend to match it with more lift to leeward as you are pushing the boat down in the water. Going fast enough you can generate a shit ton of RM and ultimately it can end up exceeding the design parameters of the boat and you'll start breaking shit. Having limits baked into the software that allows for foil control could prevent that situation where you are breaking the boat because you're pressing the pedal too hard or you're simply not aware that you are about to exceed the design parameters of the yacht. A load sensor in the mast step is a very simple way to gauge if you are in the design envelope or not in how you operate the boat.

The problem with AI or auto systems is they will very quickly want a whole herd of sensors to help them fly the boat. Gyros, altitude sensors, sonar and so on. These all need to be calibrated and kept in good working order to allow the entire system to make sensible flight decisions. I think all of that is beyond the ken of what was originally contemplated for this class. For example, ask the few hundred dead people at the bottom of the Atlantic off the Brazilian coast how they feel about frozen Pitot tubes on their Airbus. One sensor was bad and the crew did not have enough traditional skill at piloting by hand to question the supposedly air tight autopilot system that kept trying to pitch down because it thought it was about to stall due to too low airspeed. Had the pilots simply got their head out of the cockpit, turned off the auto and flown the plane everyone would have lived. Instead they were trained to trust a very complex system that had a faulty primary sensor that was having a very bad day, which indeed had a force multiplier effect on the bad day front.

Sailing a foiling boat isn't that drastic but its a good example of where lines start to blur between human and machine decisions in complex processes. Like I said, I think pre-sets are fine to get you in the ball park, no different than having numbers on your boom to follow outhaul setting, the human still decides how much outhaul to put on. After that I am of the mind that the sailor's skill should be the deciding factor in the boats performance.

One things is for sure, there will be lots of room for experimentation.

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2 hours ago, blunted said:

Going fast enough you can generate a shit ton of RM and ultimately it can end up exceeding the design parameters of the boat and you'll start breaking shit.

That's exactly the scenario I was referring to. If a mast pressure sensor would work, a visual display + alarm would do the job for this specific case. 

2 hours ago, blunted said:

frozen Pitot tubes on their Airbus

Yup yup. I'm a computer hw/sw guy, raised by an airplane pilot and accident investigator. 

The setup you describe makes sense -- "tack" button, simple limits to rake differential. I do expect that a simple-ish "dynamic differential" / "dynamic rake adjustor" where you set your rake and it adjusts up/down based on boatspeed will end up being interesting. 

Perhaps not for the TF10, but I expect the space will evolve. I do think that GPS+gyro, which are reliable and don't require fiddling, can deliver a reasonable simple dynamic/automatic configuration. Don't think we want to get too fancy, most of the AI stuff is smoke and mirrors.

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The problem with AI or auto systems is they will very quickly want a whole herd of sensors to help them fly the boat. 

 

There are a lot of engineers with a lot of money in the SF Bay area. A semi-open one design class with open sensors and automation could result in some very interesting developments. Plenty of interesting competitions ranging from beercans to offshore racing to hawaii and maybe even shallow foiling in the south bay (drop off the foils and you loes them to the mud).

 

Building Internet-scale software has it's place, but there is something genuinely fun about coding a small system with a handful of sensor inputs. If a Raspberry Pi isn't sufficient to drive a foiling boat, a small network of them probably are. If you want GPU level computation, then there are compact mobile boards for that that cost under a grand.

Pitch sponsorship to Google and Uber and you are done.

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There is already one boat in the test phase with an automated system. Foil design is more radical and the performance is at the very extreme end of things compared to the TF10. But it’s working well and for sure it’s quicker and more stable than any manual or mechanical system. 

I’m sure it will break cover soon enough. And then there will be more to follow. 

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On 7/30/2018 at 5:32 PM, blunted said:

The only complaint I heard was the choice of winches in the cockpit.

What were the complaints? I am interested in learning about how the Pontos winches performed....the good, the bad, and the ugly

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On 8/4/2018 at 3:37 AM, macca said:

There is already one boat in the test phase with an automated system. Foil design is more radical and the performance is at the very extreme end of things compared to the TF10. But it’s working well and for sure it’s quicker and more stable than any manual or mechanical system. 

I’m sure it will break cover soon enough. And then there will be more to follow. 

I guess the owners can do whatever they want.., but I think racing in general should draw a line.., before this infects the whole sport

autopilots can steer faster than probably 3/4 of the people helming boats in the Bermuda race - should we permit autopilots to steer the race?

the better solution is to just design foiling boats that can be driven by humans.., and live with the fact that machines might be faster. 

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