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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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hoppy

Which three Asymmetrics?

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If you had a racer with a bowsprit and you only used asymmetrics. Which three asymmetrics would you choose for a mixture of up and down club racing and passage races?

NS_Downwind_Vseries_Asy_WebPanel_15_v2.j

I guess local conditions and the boat will help dictate the choice and there will need to be compromises. 

 I have a feeling is that an A2 is a must. If the boat has small non-overlapping jibs, then I'd be inclined to think an Code zero could be a good reaching compromise otherwise an A3. For heavy air, maybe an A5 to reaching and running.

 

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Phone a friend: ask your local loft given they should have a feel for typical windspeeds/directions you plan to race?

Buy a vowel: Can you add a jibtop as a med/heavy air reacher on top of your asym threesome?

50:50: Would you rather win the passage races or the ups&downs?

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I took polar plots of all our races from last year.  The plots showed the wind strength and direction for every second of the downwind and reaching legs.  We discussed crew skill and my goals.  He sold me an A3 and said I did not need any other sail (spinnaker).  I have a GP symmetric if the winds should ever be light again.  We race government marks.

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I would say that it depends a lot on the kind of racing (windward-leeward or coastal) and the wind strength, of course.

If you race coastal, you would need an A3; not if you only race W-L. In my experience an A3 is a lot more useful than an A0 and can be used a lot more frequently.

Certainly an A2. This would be sail  #1, except in low wind areas where maybe an A1.5 would be the workhorse.

Another sail would be

- an A4 or A5 if more coastal than W-L; Racing over 20 kn with the A2 would ruin it.

- an A1 or A1.5 if mainly W-L in low winds

- the A0 has a very narrow condition; it is a good option once you have all the other sails, which are more widely useful

My few cents.

Ask your sailmaker ;-)

 

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Like others have said, depends on what racing you do. To expand on my earlier post,  we race mostly W/L with the odd coastal race. Mostly light to moderate air. Of course it also depends on your boat, but using the Melges 32 for comparison, the A2 is our go-to in W/L club races in 8-18kt of breeze. If it is light and you need to sail hotter angles we go A3 (we also go A3 in big air).  The Zero has won us a couple point-to point coastal races when the air has been next to nothing and we use it like a genoa. If you already carry an overlapping headsail, the A0 is probably redundant.

 

 

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Unhelpful lack of details, but I'll bite.

Biggest angle/speed coverage in 3 sails:

A1.5, A2, A3.

What You'll Get:

A1.5-Light air reaching and vmg running (0-10, 120-145 deg)

A2-Medium air deep running (9-20, 140-155 deg)

A3-Medium-heavy air reaching (9-22, 120-140 deg)

What you'll give up:

A4-Being confident you won't blow up your kite running in heavy (20+) air

Code Zero/A1-Light air tight reaching (0-8 - forward of 120 deg)

A5-Heavy air reaching (22+, 120-140 deg) 

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Now to add an expensive wrinkle...

It's worthwhile to look at the SI's for the distance racing you plan to do.  A lot of organizers allow for an additional spinnaker above the number the boat's been rated for. 

That fourth kite gives you a lot more coverage and also lets you tailor your inventory to the weather on a given day.

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Thanks for the comments so far

1 hour ago, Sarcoma said:

More details: Boat type, typical conditions etc...

 

Boat is unknown at the moment, but this is more about how others think rather than a shopping list for me.

I'm trying to sell my cruiser and will buy a racer as discussed in this thread

 

My cruiser is equipped with a "code 1" (code 0 like but spinnaker nylon) and a huge North G2 runner. These sails are on rollers and allow me to easily sail solo with them. I'm preferring a racer that will have a bowsprit and Asy's already so I can race with less crew or at least have a smaller core crew and the rest are for ballast. 

My fascination with the code 0 comes from my experience with my code 1. In <5 it really gets my heavy Jeanneau moving and can point almost as high as with its genoa (135% heavy cruising on roller). If we ever get a race in <5 I think my code 1 will work well on the windward legs. Of course with a racer, it will point much higher with a genoa/jib, so maybe a code 0 will be less advantageous, but with only non-overlapping jibs maybe the VMG could still make it worthwhile. 

When I have the racer and we have used it a bit and I have some cash to splash, I will be looking to a local sailmaker for advice on which direction to go. 

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1 minute ago, hoppy said:

Thanks for the comments so far

Boat is unknown at the moment, but this is more about how others think rather than a shopping list for me.

I'm trying to sell my cruiser and will buy a racer as discussed in this thread

 

My cruiser is equipped with a "code 1" (code 0 like but spinnaker nylon) and a huge North G2 runner. These sails are on rollers and allow me to easily sail solo with them. I'm preferring a racer that will have a pole and Asy's already so I can race with less crew or at least have a smaller core crew and the rest are for ballast. 

My fascination with the code 0 comes from my experience with my code 1. In <5 it really gets my heavy Jeanneau moving and can point almost as high as with its genoa (135% heavy cruising on roller). If we ever get a race in <5 I think my code 1 will work well on the windward legs. Of course with a racer, it will point much higher with a genoa/jib, so maybe a code 0 will be less advantageous, but with only non-overlapping jibs maybe the VMG could still make it worthwhile. 

When I have the racer and we have used it a bit and I have some cash to splash, I will be looking to a local sailmaker for advice on which direction to go. 

And there you go.

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27 minutes ago, Sarcoma said:

And there you go.

Where's the fun in waiting until I've sold my Jeanneau, then found, surveyed, purchased and delivered my racer, racing it locally and before finally speaking to a sailmaker about which sails????? 

 

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1 hour ago, CrushDigital said:

Now to add an expensive wrinkle...

It's worthwhile to look at the SI's for the distance racing you plan to do.  A lot of organizers allow for an additional spinnaker above the number the boat's been rated for. 

That fourth kite gives you a lot more coverage and also lets you tailor your inventory to the weather on a given day.

Clearly the correct answer for the most competitive Asy racer is to buy all 7 sails and pick the 3 that best suit the racecourse and conditions :)

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If you want a pretty good all round inventory I would go A1.5, A2.5 and an A3. You'll be compromising in true light air reaching conditions between the 1.5 and 3(1.5 a little too round, 3 a little too heavy) and also compromising in 10-14 knots downwind where you would want a full shouldered A2. If you were just doing buoy racing I would go for A1, A2, A4 but because you'll be doing offshore and potential random leg courses you'll need a little more flexibility that the tweener kites allow. 

 

Sub 10 knots go for the A1.5 unless you're really wicked up on a reach in which case A3.

10-22 go for the A2.5 for VMG running and A3 for anything hotter than130/135TWA

More than 22 go for the A3.

 

A1.5: Airx 500

A2.5 Airx700 with reinforced tack, clew, and head patches. 

A3: Airx900: Nice and flattttttttttt

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If I lived in a place with an average WS less then 15 I would go  A1, A2 and A0

 

If I lived in a place with an average over 15 I would go  A1.5, A2 and A3

 

 

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10 hours ago, hoppy said:

If you had a racer with a bowsprit and you only used asymmetrics. Which three asymmetrics would you choose for a mixture of up and down club racing and passage races?

NS_Downwind_Vseries_Asy_WebPanel_15_v2.j

I guess local conditions and the boat will help dictate the choice and there will need to be compromises. 

 I have a feeling is that an A2 is a must. If the boat has small non-overlapping jibs, then I'd be inclined to think an Code zero could be a good reaching compromise otherwise an A3. For heavy air, maybe an A5 to reaching and running.

 

Type of boat, local predominant conditions, type and location of distance races, other sail inventory, experience level, etc, etc are all factors that are needed to answer that question.  Also - why the 3 sail limit?  Local sausage and distance racing will have different inventories (ideally)

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49 minutes ago, Christian said:

Type of boat, local predominant conditions, type and location of distance races, other sail inventory, experience level, etc, etc are all factors that are needed to answer that question.  Also - why the 3 sail limit?  Local sausage and distance racing will have different inventories (ideally)

3 sail limit is about $$$$$$ 

To be even more specific on location. Up and back races will be at the top end of Port Phillip Bay and passage races will be in Bass Strait, both coastal and down to Tassie. Types of boat can be found in the 80k thread. Sail inventory will depend on the boat I buy, but my fav's have overlapping genoa's so a Code Zero might only be beneficial for passage races.

 

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11 hours ago, hoppy said:

If you had a racer with a bowsprit and you only used asymmetrics. Which three asymmetrics would you choose for a mixture of up and down club racing and passage races?

regardless of my specifics, I'm interested in what people think for their own local conditions and the type of boat they sail or might sail with asy's

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My post was intended to encourage you to take your conditions to a sailmaker.  As I said, he recommended an A3.  What I presented to him was all of our races from last year and the wind was typically 5 - 30 on each race although some were 0-25.  The legs are short so you pick one sail and stick with it.  These were challenging specs and I assume yours will be different.  But the more data specific to what you want to do the better the result.  The guy spent 2 hours with me before recommending the A3. He then spent another couple of hours measuring the boat, mostly for the new main I am also getting.

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When you start getting into REALLY tight reaching with things like a Code 0, there are some additional rigging enhancements you'll need to consider:

  • Bobstay 
  • 2:1 tack line
  • Low stretch halyard
  • Low stretch sheets
  • twings
  • Furling 

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

regardless of my specifics, I'm interested in what people think for their own local conditions and the type of boat they sail or might sail with asy's

In regard to the program I sail with. It is a well optimized J125(lightweight downwind machine). We have the following flying sails: A1.5, A2, A2.5, A3, A4, A0 and a BRO(Blast Reaching Zero).

 

We never take all the sails with us. Typically for a 30-60 mile race we will look at forecast and take 3-4 kites. For buoy racing we are pretty much only using the A1.5, A2 or A4 based on conditions.....

 

 

 

In the last year we have used every single one of those sails and without any one of them our performance would have been compromised. You have to  decide whether you want to have a compromised inventory from the get go, or slowly build a bigger more comprehensive inventory. 

On a way more R/C boat I sail on we have a true “upwind” zero, A1,A2 and A4. We certainly miss an A3 at times and we would swap the A4 for an A3 in a heartbeat.

 

 

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Easy, A2 for light air running, A3 for reaching,  A4 for heavy air.  Done.

Other options: 

Code 0: Nice sail but needs fairly specific conditions.  You won't use it often but when you do you'll love it.  Not a necessary sail for a basic inventory though. 

A1 or 1.5:  Meh, good for light wind but the A2 can do that decently well and if the wind comes up a little you won't have to change kites.  The A1& 1.5 are similar to the code 0, more of a specialty sail after you have the basics.  Unless you sail somewhere where it never gets windy.  The first couple years you'll be more occupied learning the new boat & the speed difference between a A1/1.5 and A2 will be the least of your problems!  Later when you have the boat dialed in get the A1/1.5

A5: If it's blowing that much you prob won't want the kite up anyway until you get used to the new boat.  In a year or two add the A5 if you sail in a place where it blows big often.  

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51 minutes ago, lydia said:

Depends on the boat, so silly question really.

With all respect.

That's why the question was worded

17 hours ago, hoppy said:

If you had a racer with a bowsprit and you only used asymmetrics.

Then anyone replying can answer based on any boat they choose. I think it is quite interesting and possibly useful when people have listed 3 and included the logic behind their choices.

You could answer for your S38 if you were going to go asy's or if you think asy's on a S38 is silly, you could write based on your experience doing the race on the Edge.

 

I'm bored waiting for my Jeanneau to sell which means I'm also bored looking at the same old boats on the sales website, so thinking about asy's keeps me occupied ;)

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Take a Sydney 38 as opposed to a Fast 40 (A Ker 40 for instance)

Very different stability and speed (read apparent wind)

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I know nothing about nothing.

But over a few years of racing on a reasonably competative keel boat in Port Phillip Bay, I do seem to recall that the brains trust would be debating what kite to use, while the pit crew were bringing up the A2. Or the other A2. Very occasionally the A4 after we had blow up an A2.

This was for W/L short course of a mile or two stuff. 

I remember liking a JT a lot on a passage race once. And on deliveries.

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15 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

Now to add an expensive wrinkle...

It's worthwhile to look at the SI's for the distance racing you plan to do.  A lot of organizers allow for an additional spinnaker above the number the boat's been rated for. 

That fourth kite gives you a lot more coverage and also lets you tailor your inventory to the weather on a given day.

unless you're a member of the yralis....then you just bring a 4th and 5th anyways ;-)   

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I'd never heard of a "jib top" until this thread, but I had seen them without understanding what they are for. Whilst I read the advantages, one of which is the sheeting angle because you use the spinnaker sheet, I can't see why you couldn't just use the spin sheet on your genoa.

My cousin when to demonstrate this to me but whilst he was rigging it, he fell OB LOL. 

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29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I'd never heard of a "jib top" until this thread, but I had seen them without understanding what they are for. Whilst I read the advantages, one of which is the sheeting angle because you use the spinnaker sheet, I can't see why you couldn't just use the spin sheet on your genoa.

My cousin when to demonstrate this to me but whilst he was rigging it, he fell OB LOL. 

You would never get enough leech pressure to set a genoa on a spin sheet,  tweaking it down hard enough to get some shape just turns it into an outboard sheet.  Also a JT is usually cut with a higher foot to reduce the chance of the bow wave going through it as they are usually used blast reaching in higher wind pressures.

They are a great sail for those heavy reaches that are just too far forward &/or too heavy for your smallest assy.  Almost essential for passage racing but rarely used on short courses.

 

TUBBY

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If the boat is no Genoa then zero, a2, a3 covers a large amount of the bases. 

Zero tight reaching in light airs and broader reaching in big breeze, it's is not just a light airs sail. 

A2 if cut well will get you from 5-22 knots fine, it will struggle a bit in the light but will be fine over 7knots.

A3 for light medium reaching and can be used downwind when it blows. 

If you have genoas you can look at possibly a A1.5 for light airs vmg running and reaching  fitting below the a3 but depends on the Genoas, if you don't have a light Genoa then a zero can be useful to fill a gap there .

A5s can be great but you want to be happy putting kites up in big breeze and know your boat, if you have a zero then often the are actually quite close in what you can use them so not generally worth having both. 

But as said before really depends on usage and boat

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45 minutes ago, TUBBY said:

You would never get enough leech pressure to set a genoa on a spin sheet,  tweaking it down hard enough to get some shape just turns it into an outboard sheet.  Also a JT is usually cut with a higher foot to reduce the chance of the bow wave going through it as they are usually used blast reaching in higher wind pressures.

They are a great sail for those heavy reaches that are just too far forward &/or too heavy for your smallest assy.  Almost essential for passage racing but rarely used on short courses.

 

TUBBY

^This. When everyone's pissed off from broaching (again!) and shredding the A4 after carrying it too hot in big breeze offshore with many miles to crawl on a reach under a twisted out J4  to the next waypoint, and the misery from being cold and wet and bruised builds whilst you plot evil revenge on the afterguard, and the fleet horizons you........ having a JT to hoist will bring that shit-eating grin back and get you there lickitysplit.

Kite speeds with whitesail ease. Sleighride!

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8 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

Easy, A2 for light air running, A3 for reaching,  A4 for heavy air.  Done.

Other options: 

Code 0: Nice sail but needs fairly specific conditions.  You won't use it often but when you do you'll love it.  Not a necessary sail for a basic inventory though. 

A1 or 1.5:  Meh, good for light wind but the A2 can do that decently well and if the wind comes up a little you won't have to change kites.  The A1& 1.5 are similar to the code 0, more of a specialty sail after you have the basics.  Unless you sail somewhere where it never gets windy.  The first couple years you'll be more occupied learning the new boat & the speed difference between a A1/1.5 and A2 will be the least of your problems!  Later when you have the boat dialed in get the A1/1.5

A5: If it's blowing that much you prob won't want the kite up anyway until you get used to the new boat.  In a year or two add the A5 if you sail in a place where it blows big often.  

This right here is why venue is so important to these discussions.  Hugh is from SF, he thinks 10 kts is iight air.  If you were to give the same answer with the same thought process, but talking about Long Island Sound, you'd end up with an A2, and A3, and an A1.5 which would probably end up being your most heavily used sail.

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56 minutes ago, CrushDigital said:

This right here is why venue is so important to these discussions.  Hugh is from SF, he thinks 10 kts is iight air.  If you were to give the same answer with the same thought process, but talking about Long Island Sound, you'd end up with an A2, and A3, and an A1.5 which would probably end up being your most heavily used sail.

10 knots is light air...

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24 minutes ago, allene222 said:

10 knots is light air...

Haha.  You need to come do a mid-distance race in Puget Sound sometime, where our 0-3 TWS drifter is a critical sail to get through holes.  Much of our racing sees top wind speeds in the 10-12 knot range.

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51 minutes ago, allene222 said:

10 knots is light air...

not for a boat with a SA/D of >30:1 ... Hell even a 109 is beginning to shift gears around 10kts and thats only what, 22:1? 

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2 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

This right here is why venue is so important to these discussions.  Hugh is from SF, he thinks 10 kts is iight air.  If you were to give the same answer with the same thought process, but talking about Long Island Sound, you'd end up with an A2, and A3, and an A1.5 which would probably end up being your most heavily used sail.

Is it even possible to sail in 10 knots of wind?  I thought they'd just cancel the race if that ever happened. :D  

Edit: Despite what we try to convince you all of, we actually do see light winds for two or three months in the winter.  As fun as the heavy summer winds are it's nice to drift in circles for a change sometimes. Cheaper too, we blow up less kites and break less shit in the winter.  But I digress, you make a good point regarding local conditions.

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Where I sail, when the wind gets light it is often because it is a lull between two different wind fields.  Not unusual to watch the windex do turns.  My goal when the wind gets light is to keep the boat pointing toward the next mark as it is a bitch to try and turn the boat in light air :-).  Here is a polar plot of wind speed and direction for one of our races.  The dark blue is the downwind leg and the magenta the reaching leg.  The goal was to find one sail that would work for both legs with the exception that we would have to take the sail down for the second half of the reaching leg.  I did a plot like this for each race and took that to the sail maker.  We decided on an A3.  Seem like a good choice?  

course 24.png

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8 hours ago, TUBBY said:

You would never get enough leech pressure to set a genoa on a spin sheet,  tweaking it down hard enough to get some shape just turns it into an outboard sheet.  Also a JT is usually cut with a higher foot to reduce the chance of the bow wave going through it as they are usually used blast reaching in higher wind pressures.

They are a great sail for those heavy reaches that are just too far forward &/or too heavy for your smallest assy.  Almost essential for passage racing but rarely used on short courses.

 

TUBBY

JT's are great when it's like this:

FullSizeRender.jpg

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After comments here and further reading, the Jibtop is now on my potential shopping list once I have a racer and are preparing for out first ocean race. 

Would a JT be considered an alternative to an A5?

Is there an asymmetric equivalent of a Jibtop? Effectively a JT on a code zero roller? 

 

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5 hours ago, allene222 said:

Where I sail, when the wind gets light it is often because it is a lull between two different wind fields.  Not unusual to watch the windex do turns.  My goal when the wind gets light is to keep the boat pointing toward the next mark as it is a bitch to try and turn the boat in light air :-).  Here is a polar plot of wind speed and direction for one of our races.  The dark blue is the downwind leg and the magenta the reaching leg.  The goal was to find one sail that would work for both legs with the exception that we would have to take the sail down for the second half of the reaching leg.  I did a plot like this for each race and took that to the sail maker.  We decided on an A3.  Seem like a good choice?  

course 24.png

If you often find yourself on reaching legs and you had to pick one kite for SF Bay an A3 is a pretty good choice.  If you do mostly windward leeward than a runner like an A4 is the one kite I'd pick for SF Bay.  With our local conditions the A3 can also be used as a chicken kite when, depending on the boat, the winds get above 25-30.  The one drawback to a deep runner in SF is when the winds are up you'll have a fairly narrow groove.  The A3, although slower deep downwind will be more versatile for sure and most days you'll have plenty of pressure to use it for running.  In places where winds are generally light to moderate I'd think a runner would be more versatile because you could reach with it in lighter winds.  Reaching with an A2 or A4 in 20+ knots of wind can be tough.

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The JT on Fineline was a recut heavy #1, clew higher and foot shaped to suit. Only had it onboard for the Coastal but it was a great sail for that race. 2 sail reaching at 15knts was a blast

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32 minutes ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

If you often find yourself on reaching legs and you had to pick one kite for SF Bay an A3 is a pretty good choice.  If you do mostly windward leeward than a runner like an A4 is the one kite I'd pick for SF Bay.  With our local conditions the A3 can also be used as a chicken kite when, depending on the boat, the winds get above 25-30.  The one drawback to a deep runner in SF is when the winds are up you'll have a fairly narrow groove.  The A3, although slower deep downwind will be more versatile for sure and most days you'll have plenty of pressure to use it for running.  In places where winds are generally light to moderate I'd think a runner would be more versatile because you could reach with it in lighter winds.  Reaching with an A2 or A4 in 20+ knots of wind can be tough.

We have three downwind legs.  Only one is DDW.  And on that one, it is often advisable not to sail directly to the mark as doing so puts the boat in a wind hole.  I won the last race by 25 minutes by sailing a curved course and that isn't bad on an under one hour race.  What the sailmaker said was when we do have strong winds on the DDW mark, the A3 will work.  When the wind is light, going south and not DDW is better strategically. I am pretty excited about it.  I have had my symetric spinnaker about 5 years and used it about 5 times.  Too much wind, not enough crew, wrong crew, etc etc.

The real reason I am getting this sail is that I am tired of being embarrassed using a 50 year old sail down wind.  We have used a light 150 for years.  We can pole it out and it does pretty well but time to get a nicer looking sail out there.  I don't even care if I go faster with it.  Sailing is just for fun after all. 

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On 11/20/2017 at 8:39 PM, hoppy said:

3 sail limit is about $$$$$$ 

To be even more specific on location. Up and back races will be at the top end of Port Phillip Bay and passage races will be in Bass Strait, both coastal and down to Tassie. Types of boat can be found in the 80k thread. Sail inventory will depend on the boat I buy, but my fav's have overlapping genoa's so a Code Zero might only be beneficial for passage races.

 

You are asking for advice - I am not going to sit sifting through another thread to find out what boat we are talking about.  

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12 hours ago, Mike Hunt said:

We use a A2, A3 and A0 on the Viper.

 

You really need an A1.5 for light (3-8 knots) and planing conditions.  A3 great for 0-3 knots and reaching off course.  A2 great for 8-12

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8 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

Is it even possible to sail in 10 knots of wind?  I thought they'd just cancel the race if that ever happened. :D  

Edit: Despite what we try to convince you all of, we actually do see light winds for two or three months in the winter.  As fun as the heavy summer winds are it's nice to drift in circles for a change sometimes. Cheaper too, we blow up less kites and break less shit in the winter.  But I digress, you make a good point regarding local conditions.

go ahead and rub it in  ;-)

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Not a lot of call for sails dedicated for light conditions here. And even less as you head south for offshore races.

RC is likely to call off the race if there is only 5 knots. At least once when we were within a couple of hundred meters of getting the gun.

 

image.png.2832f4445cadaa266370b65ee3580444.png

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29 minutes ago, dacapo said:

go ahead and rub it in  ;-)

:lol:  If it's any consolation we freeze our butts off every day, and especially in the summer.  You know how we can tell who's a tourist?  They're the one's who show up in shorts and t-shirts thinking all of California is like SoCal but within the first hour they buy a "I Love San Francisco" coat from a gift shop and spend the next few days wearing a coat with shorts.   

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9 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Not a lot of call for sails dedicated for light conditions here. And even less as you head south for offshore races.

RC is likely to call off the race if there is only 5 knots. At least once when we were within a couple of hundred meters of getting the gun.

 

image.png.2832f4445cadaa266370b65ee3580444.png

Since we started racing in May, I think about 5 races we were planning to do were cancelled either in the morning of the race or 30 min to the start because of gale warnings. We've had 1 DNF because we failed to finish in time and one abandoned due to light winds. We had one race with about 20 knots which is perfect for us (came 5th) and the rest had winds between 0 & 15 at times with enough to finish the race. I think a A2 would be better value than an A1.5.

If I understand it, summer has stronger winds than winter.

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13 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Since we started racing in May, I think about 5 races we were planning to do were cancelled either in the morning of the race or 30 min to the start because of gale warnings. We've had 1 DNF because we failed to finish in time and one abandoned due to light winds. We had one race with about 20 knots which is perfect for us (came 5th) and the rest had winds between 0 & 15 at times with enough to finish the race. I think a A2 would be better value than an A1.5.

Back when we had div 0, on at least one occasion RC called off racing for us due to high winds while the optis were still out having fun. I only recall racing in 30 knots once - which was something of a spectacle... It seems a lot of the dedicated race boats don't really have reefable mains - I know we never reefed the main inshore on the 50'er. As I said above, we carried two A2s and an A4 for most W/L racing. I believe the rest of the race boats did something similar. I think pieces of the A1.5 can still be found floating in Corio bay.

But it's no fun just planning to do what everyone else does.

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up and down club - VMG runner, heavy runner.

offshore -- all you can afford to fill those sail selection gaps from the inshore inventory.. and select as appropriate for the race.  Typically that means many more reach-oriented sails (Zero, JT, light reacher, staysail).

Zero should always go on a furler these days, or you'll end up hating it (and the crew will hate you) and you won't use it as often.

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

After comments here and further reading, the Jibtop is now on my potential shopping list once I have a racer and are preparing for out first ocean race. 

Would a JT be considered an alternative to an A5?

Is there an asymmetric equivalent of a Jibtop? Effectively a JT on a code zero roller? 

 

Jib tops are typically for tighter angles than a loose luffed A5 as they are still on the headfoil. 

The closest thing to a "jibtop on a code zero roller" is a FRO(Fractional Code Zero) or a BRO(Blast Reaching Code Zero). These are just smaller, flatter, and heavier versions as typical A0's. 

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Just a word to the wise, check a JT on a furler doesn't count towards your A Sail limit under IRC, or of not, likely it will be your longest luffed headsail, so will affect your rating. Went through this with a cruising boat turned short handed offshore race boat a few years ago.

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22 minutes ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

Just a word to the wise, check a JT on a furler doesn't count towards your A Sail limit under IRC, or of not, likely it will be your longest luffed headsail, so will affect your rating. Went through this with a cruising boat turned short handed offshore race boat a few years ago.

My understanding of A sail design requirements, is that a JT will not count as an A sail, but as a jib.

Sails%20headsail%20set%20flying.JPG

 

So for boats with non-overlapping jibs, it will need to be small to not affect your rating.

Jib+Topsail?format=500w

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/21/2017 at 10:35 AM, RATM said:

When you start getting into REALLY tight reaching with things like a Code 0, there are some additional rigging enhancements you'll need to consider:

  • Bobstay 
  • 2:1 tack line
  • Low stretch halyard
  • Low stretch sheets
  • twings
  • Furling 

+ InnerFucker

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12 hours ago, Christian said:

You really need an A1.5 for light (3-8 knots) and planing conditions.  A3 great for 0-3 knots and reaching off course.  A2 great for 8-12

When we add another kite, it will be an A1.5.  We find the A2 fine in planing conditions as long as we're doing WL's.   An A1.5 would be better in the lighter stuff but we haven't had any speed issues in those conditions against the boats we typically race against so we haven't see the need just yet.  The A2 is definitely the workhorse of our inventory.

 2016-07-02664.jpg

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1 hour ago, Mike Hunt said:

When we add another kite, it will be an A1.5.  We find the A2 fine in planing conditions as long as we're doing WL's.   An A1.5 would be better in the lighter stuff but we haven't had any speed issues in those conditions against the boats we typically race against so we haven't see the need just yet.  The A2 is definitely the workhorse of our inventory.

 2016-07-02664.jpg

Us too... but ours is big and black...

Image may contain: ocean, sky, outdoor, water and nature

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Another word of caution. In SF Bay, a jib with a mid girth > 50% and <75% is just illegal.  It is not a jib and not a spinnaker.  At least that was the ruling I got 3 years ago when I was about to buy a jib with a mid girth over 50%.

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

My understanding of A sail design requirements, is that a JT will not count as an A sail, but as a jib.

Sails%20headsail%20set%20flying.JPG

 

So for boats with non-overlapping jibs, it will need to be small to not affect your rating.

Jib+Topsail?format=500w

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had assumed the JT on the furler would be out at the end of the spirit, hence the longest luff comment. Yes, I misspoke re JT being in your A Sail limit...need a coffee.

 

Is that diagram above of the A Sail from an IMS measuring? 

Edited by TANGO QUEBEC

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4 hours ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

Is that diagram above of the A Sail from an IMS measuring? 

I think it was for ORCi. I know that IRC has a similar mid girth requirement for A sails

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12 hours ago, TANGO QUEBEC said:

Just a word to the wise, check a JT on a furler doesn't count towards your A Sail limit under IRC, or of not, likely it will be your longest luffed headsail, so will affect your rating. Went through this with a cruising boat turned short handed offshore race boat a few years ago.

A JT (and blast reacher) are just jibs

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8 hours ago, Mike Hunt said:

When we add another kite, it will be an A1.5.  We find the A2 fine in planing conditions as long as we're doing WL's.   An A1.5 would be better in the lighter stuff but we haven't had any speed issues in those conditions against the boats we typically race against so we haven't see the need just yet.  The A2 is definitely the workhorse of our inventory.

 2016-07-02664.jpg

You will pick up a good deal more speed with an A 1.5 over the A2 - reach up as hard as you can, pick up more speed, AWA goes forward, follow it down and you will be sailing at the same TWA and several knots faster

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