Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Shortforbob

mass beatings, rape and murder

Recommended Posts

Isis? Boko Harim?

Nope..just business as usual in India and Myanmar

I opened the news this morning. 

Two articles drifted passed the the side bar.

First..an indian MP offering a reward of 1,6 million to behead an actress 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/india-bollywood-beheading-bounty-deepika-padukone-padmavati-surajpal-amu-sanjay-leela-bhansali-a8066566.html

second..Rape as a weapon in Myanmar 

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/17/asia/myanmar-rohingya-rape/index.html?iid=ob_article_organicsidebar_expansion

The victims here are Muslim women or Hindi women, the perpetrators? Hindi men or Buddhist men.

A question?

Why do our politicians focus on evil Kim, various middle eastern dictators or the horrible (but relatively tiny numbers) of murders by a buch of Thugs in the ME when in these two countries alone, thousands of women are raped beaten and murdered every day?

India..Allie to the west, Burma..well Aung san is a poster girl for the wests championship of discriminated women and a NPP winner..can't put pressure on HER can we?

How can our leaders, (leaders of comfortable people in safe places) feel confident to turn their eyes and real power onto these gendercidal  human rights abuses when it's so much easier to chase squirrels (Muslims)

Modern politicians made Muslims public enemy number one, surely with the will, they can collectively set us upon regimes that perpetrate atrocities on women...after all..if women are safe the world is safer.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You want the real answer?

We can hold a government semi-accountable for their actions and they can correct them.  We CANNOT hold an entire country accountable for their culture - and make absolutely no mistake regarding the Indian sub-continents regard toward women and those of lesser caste.

To put that another way, you can tell a billion people to stop acting how they were raised but it isn't going to happen.  And if you've had any extended interactions with their people you'll find it goes a lot deeper than most Americans believe.  Many of those Indians hold the caste system and mistreat of women as their core internal values, the way we teach please and thank-you over here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Well how many wars do you want to start?

Is anyone invading/blockading/whatever Australia over their island "resorts"?

Well..personally I'd rather start a war with Myanmar over human rights (unlikely) or a war with India (even more unlikely) that start a nuclear war with NK over ????

Why do you answer a serious question with a stupid straw man?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

You want the real answer?

We can hold a government semi-accountable for their actions and they can correct them.  We CANNOT hold an entire country accountable for their culture - and make absolutely no mistake regarding the Indian sub-continents regard toward women and those of lesser caste.

To put that another way, you can tell a billion people to stop acting how they were raised but it isn't going to happen.  And if you've had any extended interactions with their people you'll find it goes a lot deeper than most Americans believe.  Many of those Indians hold the caste system and mistreat of women as their core internal values, the way we teach please and thank-you over here.

Yet we place crippling sanctions on countries like Cuba that don't abuse women..or even NK, that don't single out women for abuse.

India can change it's culture, start with some government guts and gaol that MP, start telling the governors to sort out their corrupt police or they'll find themselves investigated for corruption. India's economy relies way more on the west than we rely on them.

Threaten Myanmar with sanctions until they tell their generals that they will be held responsible for the actions of their troops.

China changed it's culture against women (more or less) it's not impossible.

War is bad, civil war even worse, gendercide is intolerable.

Forget the "WAR ON TERROR" Forget the "WAR ON DRUGS"

Have WAR ON MISOGYNY" and the other two would largely follow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No doubt we waste a lot of time on things like oil and ignore the human rights aspects, but until the governments of Myanmar and India want to change, their people aren't going to change.  We can't fix that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of people in this generation have somehow become convinced war is nearly sterile, that the most casualties won't be civilians. I attribute that to the press's fascination with high-tech gizmos. Drones and such. The same people are shocked when drones kill civies. I wonder if all the video games have played a factor. 

 At any rate, at some point it naturally culminates with an opinion that wars to bring "freedom" to people make more sense than wars of preemptive self defense. 

 

 

 

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You aren't going to end the war on women by asking wealthy white conservative men to lead the charge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

No doubt we waste a lot of time on things like oil and ignore the human rights aspects, but until the governments of Myanmar and India want to change, their people aren't going to change.  We can't fix that.

why not? we can exert pressure on Muslim majority countries on terrorism, we can exert pressure on Israel re their human rights abuses (settlement expansion etc)

Just saying "we can't fix that" when we exert pressure on on other countries because we don't like their politics seems like a cop out to me. They managed to stop burning widows in India and foot binding in China...If India can make changes to attitudes to "untouchables" the it can make changes to attitudes to women.

As For Myanmar, the raping and murder of women could be stopped tomorrow. They are an emerging economy and their exports are double their imports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

You aren't going to end the war on women by asking wealthy white conservative men to lead the charge.

you forgot the:rolleyes:

and don't make the an RvD issue..it's not.

Seriously..if wealth and power is concentrated in wealthy white men..then they have a responsibility to use it to protect.

Use it or lose it.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah, right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

you forgot the:rolleyes:

and don't make the an RvD issue..it's not.

Seriously..if wealth and power is concentrated in wealthy white men..then they have a responsibility to use it to protect.

Use it or lose it.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah, right.

Good luck with that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meli,

I am 100% for putting whatever sanctions were on Burma Myanmar back in place and putting them right back on the shitlist. I am not sure they'll care, but we can do that.

India is a democracy with rule of law (sort of). How exactly will they react with outsiders telling them what to do?

The most dangerous neocon fantasy is every country in the world is a mini USA at heart with bad leaders. Kill off a few and suddenly George Washington Al-Iraqi suddenly emerges :rolleyes:

The most dangerous left-wing fantasy is <insert name of 3rd world shithole here> human rights disasters can be fixed if Big Daddy USA and all our soldiers show up, kick some ass, and tell them to be sensitive or else!

Take up the White Man’s burden—

Send forth the best ye breed—

Go send your sons to exile

To serve your captives' need

To wait in heavy harness

On fluttered folk and wild—

Your new-caught, sullen peoples,

Half devil and half child

Take up the White Man’s burden

In patience to abide

To veil the threat of terror

And check the show of pride;

By open speech and simple

An hundred times made plain

To seek another’s profit

And work another’s gain

Take up the White Man’s burden—

And reap his old reward:

The blame of those ye better

The hate of those ye guard—

The cry of hosts ye humour

(Ah slowly) to the light:

"Why brought ye us from bondage,

“Our loved Egyptian night?”

Take up the White Man’s burden-

Have done with childish days-

The lightly proffered laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years,

Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Meli,

I am 100% for putting whatever sanctions were on Burma Myanmar back in place and putting them right back on the shitlist. I am not sure they'll care, but we can do that.

India is a democracy with rule of law (sort of). How exactly will they react with outsiders telling them what to do?

The most dangerous neocon fantasy is every country in the world is a mini USA at heart with bad leaders. Kill off a few and suddenly George Washington Al-Iraqi suddenly emerges :rolleyes:

The most dangerous left-wing fantasy is <insert name of 3rd world shithole here> human rights disasters can be fixed if Big Daddy USA and all our soldiers show up, kick some ass, and tell them to be sensitive or else!

 

I'm sorry, while you're president is playing games with Nukes and NK, I simply won't accept that "we can't tell a democracy what to do"

And I;m not talking about the USA..I mean EVERY developed nation from Japan to China To even NZ

It would be economically and diplomatically painful but not that hard..how hard can it be to say..you treat 50% of your population as badly as you treat your dogs. .No more mr nice guy..no subsidies, no imports, no exports..no university for your rich kids, ..etc

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

why not? we can exert pressure on Muslim majority countries on terrorism, we can exert pressure on Israel re their human rights abuses (settlement expansion etc)

Just saying "we can't fix that" when we exert pressure on on other countries because we don't like their politics seems like a cop out to me. They managed to stop burning widows in India and foot binding in China...If India can make changes to attitudes to "untouchables" the it can make changes to attitudes to women.

As For Myanmar, the raping and murder of women could be stopped tomorrow. They are an emerging economy and their exports are double their imports.

The same reason we couldn't "fix" Iraq and Afghanistan.  True change needs to be internal, and the peoples of these countries don't see the need or have the want to actually change.  We need to give up on nationbuilding.  It's pretty simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Grrr... said:

The same reason we couldn't "fix" Iraq and Afghanistan.  True change needs to be internal, and the peoples of these countries don't see the need or have the want to actually change.  We need to give up on nationbuilding.  It's pretty simple.

We didn't try to fix Iraq..Women in Iraq were the most advanced in the western world..we broke it.

We didn't try to fix Afghanistan the USA and Russia tore it apart.

We've actually never tried to fix solely human rights issues with really hard sanctions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check your history man.  We've a ton of it, from Japan to Poland to Iraq to Haiti to Burma.  We've persuaded the EU to hit everything from Belarus to Congo.  But fucking over a country just pisses off the people and makes them stand up against you.  We've learned that lesson over and over again.  We need to fix our own country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

Check your history man.  We've a ton of it, from Japan to Poland to Iraq to Haiti to Burma.  We've persuaded the EU to hit everything from Belarus to Congo.  But fucking over a country just pisses off the people and makes them stand up against you.  We've learned that lesson over and over again.  We need to fix our own country.

The EU?..Hitting the small players is pointless..the peasants don't notice if their 8 beans a day become 6..But the wealthy in big "Democratic" countries will feel the pain when they find they can't sent the next generation of modern day high casts to Oxford...wow..they might just start "fixing it from within then..when they have no "without" to escape to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

why not? we can exert pressure on Muslim majority countries on terrorism, we can exert pressure on Israel re their human rights abuses (settlement expansion etc)

Just saying "we can't fix that" when we exert pressure on on other countries because we don't like their politics seems like a cop out to me. They managed to stop burning widows in India and foot binding in China...If India can make changes to attitudes to "untouchables" the it can make changes to attitudes to women.

As For Myanmar, the raping and murder of women could be stopped tomorrow. They are an emerging economy and their exports are double their imports.

Seen North Korea lately?  Cuba?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

Seen North Korea lately?  Cuba?

There's nothing wrong with Cuba in relative terms (and they'd be a whole lot better off without 50 years of spite from the USA)

Nth K ..Um..I've never seen any accusations that the NK army target NK women in particular..That's what this topic is about..Gendercide. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

The EU?..Hitting the small players is pointless..the peasants don't notice if their 8 beans a day become 6..But the wealthy in big "Democratic" countries will feel the pain when they find they can't sent the next generation of modern day high casts to Oxford...wow..they might just start "fixing it from within then..when they have no "without" to escape to.

So you plan on telling India you are going to screw up their economy if they don't do something about crime against women?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the road you are building goes downhill and is covered with ice :o

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

So you plan on telling India you are going to screw up their economy if they don't do something about crime against women?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the road you are building goes downhill and is covered with ice :o

 

OK to start..I'd tell India we are not accepting their young men and women into our Universities or jobs until they fix their Gendocidal culture.

I've been downhill on and ice covered road in a car with no breaks, , close scrape with a tractor but it all ended well..(if you want to use metaphors )

We have this old and toothless international body that has the structure to fix this..but it needs extensive dental work.

AND..start calling sitting Presidents and Prime ministers into the ICJ..they ARE accountable for the actions of their military.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's nothing wrong with Cuba in relative terms (and they'd be a whole lot better off without 50 years of spite from the USA)

Nth K ..Um..I've never seen any accusations that the NK army target NK women in particular..That's what this topic is about..Gendercide. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-41778470

" A former soldier says life as a woman in the world's fourth-largest army was so tough that most soon stopped menstruating. And rape, she says, was a fact of life for many of those she served with. "

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

OK to start..I'd tell India we are not accepting their young men and women into our Universities or jobs until they fix their Gendocidal culture.

So you would punish decent Indian people that want to study here based on their ethnicity? Even better you will have to order Australian university's to not accept people of Indian decent. And of course banning Indian students from entering Australia.

How very Trump like of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah... kinda coming to the conclusion  the Shortforbob has some pretty thick rosy glasses on.  We've seen time and again that it doesn't work.  Definition of insanity and all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meli,

This is why the USA gets so freaking tired of being the world police. If we set foot in another country, we are evil imperialists screwing it up and if we leave them alone we are isolationist assholes letting them screw themselves up. Pissed at India? The UK owned the place for over 100 years and twice that if you count British East India Inc., didn't they? How about they go invade, take the place back over, and tell them what's what ;)

We have been there - done that - and everyone hated us for it. Remember trying to straighten out the starving Somalis?

header.jpg?t=1477991243

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

you forgot the:rolleyes:

and don't make the an RvD issue..it's not.

Seriously..if wealth and power is concentrated in wealthy white men..then they have a responsibility to use it to protect.

Use it or lose it.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah, right.

We are busy here in the states fight ‘The Man’ against perceived differences in man/woman pay.   We don’t have time for trivial issues of foreign women.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like another white asshole that thinks their lifestyle and morals are the only ones that are important. The old agree with me or be punished. Just the sort of entitled assholes the world needs less of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-41778470

" A former soldier says life as a woman in the world's fourth-largest army was so tough that most soon stopped menstruating. And rape, she says, was a fact of life for many of those she served with. "

 

and this is different in other armies? Your not getting it. I;m talking about cultures that specifically target women for abuse and rape and murder.

And this isn't about KN, it's about two countries where we have normal diplomatic and trade relations..why is it so hard for you to stay on topic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Meli,

This is why the USA gets so freaking tired of being the world police. If we set foot in another country, we are evil imperialists screwing it up and if we leave them alone we are isolationist assholes letting them screw themselves up. Pissed at India? The UK owned the place for over 100 years and twice that if you count British East India Inc., didn't they? How about they go invade, take the place back over, and tell them what's what ;)

We have been there - done that - and everyone hated us for it. Remember trying to straighten out the starving Somalis?

header.jpg?t=1477991243

I'm not talking about the USA "fixing" this.. I'm talking about developed nations as a whole. The USA has a poor record of fixing things when left to their own devices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Yeah... kinda coming to the conclusion  the Shortforbob has some pretty thick rosy glasses on.  We've seen time and again that it doesn't work.  Definition of insanity and all that.

What doesn't work? sanctions on developed democracies or action against countries that trade with us?

Stopping the genocide in Kosovo came out pretty well in the end.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

So you would punish decent Indian people that want to study here based on their ethnicity? Even better you will have to order Australian university's to not accept people of Indian decent. And of course banning Indian students from entering Australia.

How very Trump like of you.

I'd put sanctions on that hurt the top 20%,,the ruling class..don't care how it's done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Gissie said:

Sounds like another white asshole that thinks their lifestyle and morals are the only ones that are important. The old agree with me or be punished. Just the sort of entitled assholes the world needs less of.

So slaughtering minorities is OK with you...Rape as a weapon is OK with you? 

Why am I not surprised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm sorry, while you're president is playing games with Nukes and NK, I simply won't accept that "we can't tell a democracy what to do"

And I;m not talking about the USA..I mean EVERY developed nation from Japan to China To even NZ

It would be economically and diplomatically painful but not that hard..how hard can it be to say..you treat 50% of your population as badly as you treat your dogs. .No more mr nice guy..no subsidies, no imports, no exports..no university for your rich kids, ..etc

 

You seem to forget that Saudi Arabia has the oil. The USA isn't going to piss of their great & good friend no matter how long they disenfranchise 50% of the population.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm not talking about the USA "fixing" this.. I'm talking about developed nations as a whole. The USA has a poor record of fixing things when left to their own devices.

Yeah but they're absolutely first class at breaking things.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd prefer that we focus on a Buddhist Country that is currently slaughtering, raping and beating Muslim women..just for a change.

A Buddhist country that we trade with and support developmentally.

 

But apparently no one want's to Focus on this. Like I said, It could be stopped tomorrow without military intervention. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

There's nothing wrong with Cuba in relative terms (and they'd be a whole lot better off without 50 years of spite from the USA)

Nth K ..Um..I've never seen any accusations that the NK army target NK women in particular..That's what this topic is about..Gendercide. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-41778470

 

Quote

A former soldier says life as a woman in the world's fourth-largest army was so tough that most soon stopped menstruating. And rape, she says, was a fact of life for many of those she served with.

Quote

"North Korea is a traditional male-dominated society and traditional gender roles remain," says Juliette Morillot, author of North Korea in 100 questions, published in French. "Women are still seen ttukong unjeongsu, which literally translates as 'cooking pot lid drivers', and means that they should 'stay in the kitchen where they belong'."

Edit

 

Ish beat me to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

yeah someone already posted that squirrel.

Last time I looked, NK was not somewhere where we have much influence:rolleyes:

Much like Myanmar:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, mad said:

Much like Myanmar:rolleyes:

no..nothing like Myanmar.

Australia is working to broaden and deepen our bilateral partnership with Myanmar through strengthening government-to-government ties, growing trade and investment and expanding people-to-people links. This is underpinned by Australia’s development assistance that aims to support Myanmar’s reform process by improving the quality of education; promoting peace and stability; and promoting inclusive economic growth and government management.

http://dfat.gov.au/geo/myanmar/Pages/myanmar.aspx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

no..nothing like Myanmar.

Australia is working to broaden and deepen our bilateral partnership with Myanmar through strengthening government-to-government ties, growing trade and investment and expanding people-to-people links. This is underpinned by Australia’s development assistance that aims to support Myanmar’s reform process by improving the quality of education; promoting peace and stability; and promoting inclusive economic growth and government management.

http://dfat.gov.au/geo/myanmar/Pages/myanmar.aspx

Looks as if Australia needs to work a little harder then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Remember trying to straighten out the starving Somalis?

You mean earlier this month?

12 hours ago, Mark K said:

 At any rate, at some point it naturally culminates with an opinion that wars to bring "freedom" to people make more sense than wars of preemptive self defense. 

I'm not really sure which we're doing in Somalia. Or Niger. Or anywhere else.

And by "we" I mean the Unitary Executive, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, mad said:

Maybe they should sort this little issue out that's closer to home first?

 

 

as in. maybe like.........PNG.. it is .ranked highest in the world in HR Abuses....but it's not mainstream news.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meli,

I remain amazed at the number of international lefty types that absolutely hate the USA like we were the evil twin of Nazi Germany, but can't stop thinking of things for us to be doing. Here is a hint: Walking into a foreign country and MAKING THEM act the way you would want enlightened residents of a liberal first world democracy to act on their best day is an extraordinarily difficult task.

Note we solved Kosovo, to the extent it is solved, with bullets and high explosives.

We succeeded perhaps beyond what anyone has done before or since with remaking Japan in our image, but we had to utterly destroy the place first so it was our way or die of starvation in the ruins ;) 

We should ban Australians from travel to the USA and confiscate any money and property we can get our hands on. Any of them presently in the USA need to go right into prison too. Doesn't matter what they did personally, if we get enough Australians in jail or bankrupt maybe they'll change their ways. If that doesn't work, they are well within the range of our drones and bombers. I bet a few 5-52s flying wingtip to wingtip raining incendiaries down on the local library in Melbourne would change their policies.

manif3.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a long thread on Manus.

Why do you guys insist on attempting to change the subject?

No one is actually blaming the USA for this situation on Myanmar (for a change)

Despite Kent's fixation, No one has said anything about the USA "Fixing the situation"

So why are you so afraid to discuss the rape and murder of women in war?

Interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mad said:

What does that have to do with this? 

about as much as the situation in Myanmar has to do with the situation in NK?

But more useful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Meli,

Did you just now realize war is a really nasty business?

You have also conflated it with crime in India. Do you have any idea what goes on in Africa :o

The subject is not war...the subject is the rape and murder of women..in wa r and cultural attitudes in general and what the world can do about it  

you seem to only be able to operate on one track... how does this affect the USA?

Well I suppose a few of your people may lose money, or end up in Den Haag ...or heaven help you..have to think about something outside the USA:rolleyes: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's a long thread on Manus.

Why do you guys insist on attempting to change the subject?

No one is actually blaming the USA for this situation on Myanmar (for a change)

Despite Kent's fixation, No one has said anything about the USA "Fixing the situation"

So why are you so afraid to discuss the rape and murder of women in war?

Interesting.

Rape and murder in war has been happening just as long as war has been going on.

Not that I don't care, I see no effective way of dealing with this situation. The few things that might have some effect, like forcible re-colonisation and ruthless execution of perpetrators, would have people like you screaming to the skies.

BTW that's how the British terminated suttee when they ruled India.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Rape and murder in war has been happening just as long as war has been going on.

Not that I don't care, I see no effective way of dealing with this situation. The few things that might have some effect, like forcible re-colonisation and ruthless execution of perpetrators, would have people like you screaming to the skies.

BTW that's how the British terminated suttee when they ruled India.

FKT

actually the only problem I'd have with ruthless execution is that it's too quick..shame it took 16 years and pressure from the EU to get the Serbs to hand Mladic over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

actually the only problem I'd have with ruthless execution is that it's too quick..shame it took 16 years and pressure from the EU to get the Serbs to hand Mladic over.

I meant ruthless *summary* execution none of this long-drawn trials etc.

First you have to catch them so what's your position on re-colonisation then?

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I meant ruthless *summary* execution none of this long-drawn trials etc.

First you have to catch them so what's your position on re-colonisation then?

FKT

My position on recolonisation is that it's kind of obsolete.

We don't actually have to build a tea plantation or two to "rule" a country anymore.

Every day economically powerful countries exert pressure on other counties in trade matters..often unfairly and to their detriment. You don't seem to think of this as is being a bad thing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

You mean earlier this month?

I'm not really sure which we're doing in Somalia. Or Niger. Or anywhere else.

And by "we" I mean the Unitary Executive, of course.

We are engaged in our war against militarized radical Islam in those places. I thought everybody knew that. Hell, we've been doing that shit for about 16 years now. You remind me of Bill Maher, who never stopped whining about Obama's reluctance to use the term "radical Islamic terrorists" by pretending it unfathomable and unexplained by Obama, as if Obama hadn't explained his reasoning on the matter. As if Fareed Zakaria hadn't right on his own show, among others. 

  I believe the technical term for this is "concern trolling", but am unsure. Does that term encompass being deliberately obtuse? Interesting questions abound! 

 

 

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

My position on recolonisation is that it's kind of obsolete.

We don't actually have to build a tea plantation or two to "rule" a country anymore.

Every day economically powerful countries exert pressure on other counties in trade matters..often unfairly and to their detriment. You don't seem to think of this as is being a bad thing.

 

I'm interested in things that work - I'm a scientist/engineer not a liberal arts type. So far what you propose won't work.

As for trade as a (mis)use of power - go for it. See what happens next.

Supplying the women with pistols and a free pass to shoot one man per year would be a lot more effective IMO.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I'm interested in things that work - I'm a scientist/engineer not a liberal arts type. So far what you propose won't work.

As for trade as a (mis)use of power - go for it. See what happens next.

Supplying the women with pistols and a free pass to shoot one man per year would be a lot more effective IMO.

FKT

economic sanctions ended apartheid in South Africa.

It's not a matter of colonialism or interference, It's a matter of insisting that the world start exerting economic pressure on countries that treat one section of the community with brutality and enforced servitude...in this case that section of the community is defined by their gender rather than race or religion.

The world is pretty good at "fixing" things if there is a profit to be made..but the same tools can be used for humanitarian purposes too.

Anyway, I have to go to work.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

economic sanctions ended apartheid in South Africa.

It's not a matter of colonialism or interference, It's a matter of insisting that the world start exerting economic pressure on countries that treat one section of the community with brutality and enforced servitude...in this case that section of the community is defined by their gender rather than race or religion.

The world is pretty good at "fixing" things if there is a profit to be made..but the same tools can be used for humanitarian purposes too.

Anyway, I have to go to work.   

There is no "the world". What exists is a bunch of countries with radically different philosophies. A lot don't give a damn about your concerns. I don't give a damn about many of them and I'm another Australian. Happens I do care quite a lot about the abuse and repression of women though.

As to whether sanctions caused the collapse of apartheid, debatable. Might by the same logic also led to the collapse of the Rhodesian Government and that worked out spectacularly well, didn't it? Zimbabwe doesn't even have its own currency these days. Can't feed its own population. Mashona abuse of the Matabele. Which is pretty typical of Africa all over really - tribalism over nation-state.

If we stopped trading with India, how about China, too? What's your position on the 1 child policy and forced late term abortions?

I'd start with doing something about problems right here in Australia - take a look at the sexual abuse of Aboriginal children by other Aboriginals in Roebourne and other remote communities. But no - we can't do that because of politics - couldn't admit that we really need to jail a lot more men and take the children permanently off of a lot more women and adopt them out. People like you would be howling 'genocide' all over again.

So - propose something that has some chance of working and I'll consider it. Otherwise this is just another example of 'woe is me/them' on an internet forum and I'll treat it as a bit of light entertainment.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you ever considerered that if the world works toward ending violence and economic abuse against women..all women..us being a bit more that half the worlds population, many of those things you mention..both at home and abroad will improve? Think about it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

There is no "the world". What exists is a bunch of countries with radically different philosophies. A lot don't give a damn about your concerns. 

THIS....end of discussion ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Have you ever considerered that if the world works toward ending violence and economic abuse against women..all women..us being a bit more that half the worlds population, many of those things you mention..both at home and abroad will improve? Think about it.

 

Will you get it through your head that THERE IS NO "THE WORLD"? There is no consensus. There isn't going to be any consensus.

Agree that in many places women get the shitty end of the stick. Some places it's utterly part of the culture - pretty much every Islamic state comes to mind. Other places it's partially cultural - India & China. Western world Enlightenment countries, by & large at the margins.

So you need to pick your targets a bit more selectively. I prefer to deal with issues here at home where we control the laws and can change them. You want to hope that things locally will improve once 'the world' cleans up it's act.

There's a technical term for your belief system. 'Pollyanna thinking'.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meli - this is the fantasy of Star Trek. You have an incredibly powerful warship with a kind of liberal do-gooder ethos. They use their military prowess and might to make things better for various societies they encounter.

In real life this is incredibly hard to do if you could do it at all.

Question: Australian first nations (Aborigine) women can be treated pretty badly. When do we attack?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Have you ever considerered that if the world works toward ending violence and economic abuse against women..all women..us being a bit more that half the worlds population, many of those things you mention..both at home and abroad will improve? Think about it.

 

Yes I have... I also wondered ... A World W/O  WAR , borders, racism,violence,weapons, religious persecution,  pollution. and a universal minimum wage.....and how very wonderful it would be.. if we were to be   just one earth population instead of regional

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

So slaughtering minorities is OK with you...Rape as a weapon is OK with you? 

Why am I not surprised.

Never said either of these but certainly not surprised you just wrote it anyway.

You are happy to decide that your morals and cultural references are the correct ones. That they should be the ones that are followed by all or they should be punished. But surely, if things are to be fair, it should go the other way. The middle east should be able to boycott Aus for allowing women freedoms that they feel are wrong. China should boycott Aus for believing that democracy needs to be enforced around the world.

The world is changing and new alliances are forming. Cultural norms change over time, for example you would not have to go back far in Aus or Pom history to get to a place where the things you are complaining about would be considered okay. But wanting to force change with the threat of punishment or death to suit your morals of the day. That makes you just another white asshole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, captpiratedog said:

Yes I have... I also wondered ... A World W/O  WAR , borders, racism,violence,weapons, religious persecution,  pollution. and a universal minimum wage.....and how very wonderful it would be.. if we were to be   just one earth population instead of regional

Is that where everyone links hands and sings 'Kumbaya My Lord'......?

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Is that where everyone links hands and sings 'Kumbaya My Lord'......?

FKT

...I was thinking more like this one that Coca-cola ripped off 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Meli - this is the fantasy of Star Trek. You have an incredibly powerful warship with a kind of liberal do-gooder ethos. They use their military prowess and might to make things better for various societies they encounter.

In real life this is incredibly hard to do if you could do it at all.

The British managed it in places like Yemen between the 2 big wars. They simply bombed the tribal villages that got out of hand & went off raiding the other villages. After a while they'd trained the village leaders to come & complain to the British Resident instead of launching retaliation raids.

Can't remember the book title but Freya Stark recorded this during her travels.

Note the very, very large power imbalance and the collective punishment aspects.

Meli would *never* agree with this as a policy though, any more than she would Australia forcibly removing Aboriginal children from abusive situations and adopting them out. Better to put them in another situation of abuse so as to preserve the cultural identity. Friend of mine's son was a doctor who spent a couple years working in those communities. What he tells isn't pretty.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Likewise the USA had the insurgents/terrorists/assholes in the Philippines in hand. We just killed them a *lot* until they settled down. Anyone think we should take that place back over and re-kick their asses?

We even invented a gun to kill them more dead than usual:

American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine–American War using the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, .38 Long Colt, found it to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had high battle morale and often used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[10] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the late 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[11] The problems prompted the then–Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[11]

450px-M1911A1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Likewise the USA had the insurgents/terrorists/assholes in the Philippines in hand. We just killed them a *lot* until they settled down. Anyone think we should take that place back over and re-kick their asses?

It's a no-win regardless of how you look at it. WW2 pretty clearly demonstrated the extent an oppressor was prepared to go to but still not manage to completely cow the population. 10 for 1 massacres, slaughtering whole villages - no way we're going there and it still didn't work. Yet good intentions at the start could easily lead there. Things have gotten a lot worse WRT asymmetric warfare since then.

I've got to the 'pox on the lot of them' point these days. If your country is a shit-hole, don't blame it on anyone except your fellow citizens. I'm not supporting outsiders fixing your problems for you, do it yourself. The Australian effort in the Solomon Islands is a rare exception where things worked out reasonably well - so far - but that was because the tribal fighting over the spoils between the Guadalcanal people and the Malaitans had gotten to the point where an outside party independent of both was welcomed - broadly - by all parties.

Meli has it right, we could and should refuse to deal with governments & people who engage in systematic exploitation/abuse of women. There are places & groups of people I won't have anything to do with in any way. Where she loses the plot completely is talking about "the world" taking action. Never going to happen. Waste of time. The UN is even worse a joke, all you have to do is look at the countries on the Human Rights protection committee.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Mark K said:
22 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

You mean earlier this month?

I'm not really sure which we're doing in Somalia. Or Niger. Or anywhere else.

And by "we" I mean the Unitary Executive, of course.

We are engaged in our war against militarized radical Islam in those places. I thought everybody knew that. Hell, we've been doing that shit for about 16 years now. You remind me of Bill Maher, who never stopped whining about Obama's reluctance to use the term "radical Islamic terrorists" by pretending it unfathomable and unexplained by Obama, as if Obama hadn't explained his reasoning on the matter. As if Fareed Zakaria hadn't right on his own show, among others. 

  I believe the technical term for this is "concern trolling", but am unsure. Does that term encompass being deliberately obtuse? Interesting questions abound! 

I know I started it, but can we stop using the royal "we" to refer to Donald Trump? It's kinda creeping me out.

Being concerned about what he might do is trolling? OK...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/video-slave-auction-migrants-libya_us_5a161d56e4b064948072e9f3?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Here is a cause for you Meli:

After a video surfaced showing migrants apparently being sold at auction in Libya, people worldwide have been calling for action. 

Last week, CNN published a report on modern slavery in Libya, featuring a video that reportedly was shot in August and appeared to show a man selling African migrants for farm work.

“Big strong boys,” the man said in the video, according to a CNN narrator. “400 … 700 … 800,” he called out the mounting prices. The men were eventually sold for about $400 each, CNN reported. The Libyan government said it has launched an investigation into slave auctions in the country. 

Oddly enough, the sale prices are right in line with old time slave auctions in the USA.

figure2.jpg

So..do we bomb Libya AGAIN?

Do we just colonize the place and kill all the miscreants?

What is your suggestion?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad you are not an employee of mine.

Project management might not be your strong point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2017 at 8:46 PM, Shortforbob said:

So slaughtering minorities is OK with you...Rape as a weapon is OK with you? 

Why am I not surprised.

How crazy is your argument when I am forced to agree with Gissie against you?

Your weak-minded paternalistic thinking is precisely why so many of these countries are a basket case already. Changes in social standards like you desire can only be self-motivated. Penalising a few rich people won't do it. Changing their leadership won't do it.

The two primary mechanisms by which countries change structural law-and-order issues such as you are complaining about are via brutal dictatorships, or equally brutal religious theocracies.

This is why IS is able to hold territory. Not because the people think they're awesome, but because they pay their bills, keep the busses running, and largely eliminate the lawless environments which wars leave in their wake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/22/2017 at 8:43 PM, Shortforbob said:

What doesn't work? sanctions on developed democracies or action against countries that trade with us?

Stopping the genocide in Kosovo came out pretty well in the end.

 

 

On 11/23/2017 at 7:49 AM, Shortforbob said:

actually the only problem I'd have with ruthless execution is that it's too quick..shame it took 16 years and pressure from the EU to get the Serbs to hand Mladic over.

For a librarian you seem wildly ignorant of history. 

I am curious to know how you think that mess started? You think the serbians just got up one day and decided to kill their muslim neighbours for some reason? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm glad you are not an employee of mine.

Project management might not be your strong point.

So - no answer then?

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The darkness that exists will  continue to be shrouded by denial.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm..Meli actually never said anything about using high explosives to do anything..but you have my permission to turn this into a gun thread:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Hmmm..Meli actually never said anything about using high explosives to do anything..but you have my permission to turn this into a gun thread:rolleyes:

Tom wouldn't do that, would he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites