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PJF

J24 sump...epoxy or polyester resin filler?

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Getting ready to cut the last of the filler out of an 81 J24 sump around the aft keel bolts...when I re-fill, and going by the class website guide, do I use polyester or can I use west epoxy?   thoughts on difference?  epoxy bonds better but is more brittle.   I have milled fibers to mix.   ideas?  

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Here  This gallery includes a good example of the repair you're talking about on a 1986 hull, which has two deep sections of keel sump forward, and one section full of vermiculite aft under the lifting strap.

This is the correct, strong, J24 Class accepted method of filling the sump, for boats where one or more bays of the sump are filled up to the level to support the keel bolts torqued down.  What you're looking at is a well cleaned, well abraded, ground surface (either 36 or 45 grit disk if I recall correctly).  Prep a stack of cloth and high density foam (penske board, similar) plates to dry fit, first.  Use epoxy neat to saturate the surfaces once clean and prepared to bond, then follow with epoxy thickened with structural filler.  A g10 plate at the top, incorporated with a  couple of sheathes of glass tied into the hull liner to both sides of the keel to cap it off nicely.  Remember to create at least one or more drain holes into the deepest part of the bilge.

Do not pour straight resin, regardless of the resin.  Do not pour thickened epoxy or polyester without laying cloth and foam.  You'll have made a very solid mess of things.

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The photos are locked but I have seen similar pictures.  Is there sufficient structure to prevent compression and movement in the keel when the keel bolts are torqued down?   The J Class site shows a full pour, while others show your suggested method of high density foam and compression sleeves around the bolts.   And i have no idea where to get 5/8" bolt compression sleeves.   

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On 12/1/2017 at 3:53 PM, PJF said:

The photos are locked but I have seen similar pictures.  Is there sufficient structure to prevent compression and movement in the keel when the keel bolts are torqued down?   The J Class site shows a full pour, while others show your suggested method of high density foam and compression sleeves around the bolts.   And i have no idea where to get 5/8" bolt compression sleeves.   

A compression sleeve would be a tube of G10 that is slid over the bolt if I'm not mistaken.  You could find that at McMaster Carr

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No compression sleeves.  Layers of glass cloth sandwiching high density foam, capped with a topping plate of G10.  There's no one in the class measurement community that would currently recommend a straight pour of resin of any kind, it just doesn't provide any structural integrity.

First make the stack to fit

15661957925_a390a19eb5_z.jpg.3e7f98ce4d00ba3dfe4d370fb4cb4ebe.jpg

Dry Fit

15041812133_bf0ee98154_z.jpg.b0b116b3c7e8e416f8ac7c489d2a8dd6.jpg

Tie g10 plate/top of fill into surrounding hull with a layer or two of glass cloth.  Allow to cure several days before final torque values.

15041805813_a3a2f49a82_z.jpg.4a053985ed00938c4b3022f69b99a65f.jpg

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ok, your photos are great, but the plates of foam and glass are horizontal vice vertical.   Damn, I am confused.   Yours makes sense because it is like laying bricks, but I have see other photos where they put in "vertical sheets" with pour in between.   Good excuse to start drinking over the winter and just go for the consensus this spring the it is warm enough to epoxy.   This is a "spare J24" that will be used to allow newbies into the class to try it out.   But still want to be class legal.   

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Yeah I think the problem is the word "pouring."

"pouring" is like 1987 and polyester is the thing, and it's not actually a good way to do this.

Laminating a new stack of foam interlaced with glass cloth, and epoxy with structural filler, layer by layer, is going to yield a significantly better result.  That's why the layers are horizontal.

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Getting ready to do verm job with the Waterline kit.

The kit doesn’t come with resin.

Looking at ordering some but there’s a lot to choose from out there.

Someone please advise, it sounds like epoxy resin be the preferred type of resin for this project? 

Any suggestions for type, brand, source appreciated.

Originally, I expected to be “pouring” large amounts of resin to fill the sump. After reading above posts and waterline instructions I realize it will be more brick laying in a resin putty. Using the method referenced above with Penske foam, same as Waterlines instructions, what might be a reasonable estimate of how much resin to order?

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Waterline got back to me. 

The original quote was for just aft section of sump.

Once I let them know It’s the entire sump they had to Redo the quote.

The price for the kit for the entire sump is $1434.00

the additional cost is for more Penske foam and additional section of flooring

Seems a little weird.  Oh well need the kit.

Pulled the trigger today. 

Will share on how it goes.

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Jeez!  I Wish I had seen this earlier, in case my experience would be helpful in terms of cost.   I'm all for a quality repair, but it seems like overkill to me.  I filled mine with polyester and chopped fiber in 1996.  I did it in a few pours so that it wouldn't overheat while curing.  It's still absolutely fine today.  Cost something like $30 in materials.

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Sump 22 years after filling...  I don't see any problems.  Each bolt is holding about 200# of ballast.

Keel sump.jpg

Edited by Vpharris
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Thank you, That sump looks really good. 

I would be very happy with that installation. 

I am wondering why you didn’t fill the front end section of the sump. Small Bilge?

Did you just use plywood for floor stringers and the floorboard?

I agree the Waterline kit isn’t cheap. I have considered different routes in doing this.

The time savings and efficiency of having premade floors and having record that the kit was used

is valuable to me. The teak and holly will just look nice.

If I avoided the kit, I figured the materials to create solid glass floorboards and rebuild the sump proper probably more like $400 - $500 give or take. Then the time spent custom building the floors etc...

It would be nice to get away spending $50 on this.

As the boat is worth it to me I don’t feel bad spending some dough on the floors as I’ve heard good things.

I will post photos of the kit when it arrives for others (I know there’s still a few, maybe) going down this road.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Herreshoff said:

Thank you, That sump looks really good. 

I would be very happy with that installation. 

I am wondering why you didn’t fill the front end section of the sump. Small Bilge?

Did you just use plywood for floor stringers and the floorboard?

I agree the Waterline kit isn’t cheap. I have considered different routes in doing this.

The time savings and efficiency of having premade floors and having record that the kit was used

is valuable to me. The teak and holly will just look nice.

If I avoided the kit, I figured the materials to create solid glass floorboards and rebuild the sump proper probably more like $400 - $500 give or take. Then the time spent custom building the floors etc...

It would be nice to get away spending $50 on this.

As the boat is worth it to me I don’t feel bad spending some dough on the floors as I’ve heard good things.

I will post photos of the kit when it arrives for others (I know there’s still a few, maybe) going down this road.

 

 

 

If he filled the forward sump it would permanently seal up the forward keel bolts. 

I did the same repair using just thickened fill on my nephews J24 many years ago. It was held up perfectly as well. 

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While polyester resin IS cheaper,  Epoxy is a lot stronger and has much better secondary bonding (attachment to previously-cured material) - in other words,  it's a lot stickier.  Epoxy also absorbs much less moisture.

Because it costs more,  using a solid filler like the G10 plates greatly reduces the amount of material you need to buy and it a lot easier to work with - if you loaded up fabric with resin to the same mass you'd have a LOT of heat there.

Just my 2cents

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On 12/5/2017 at 4:56 PM, Dogfish4255 said:

Yeah I think the problem is the word "pouring."

"pouring" is like 1987 and polyester is the thing, and it's not actually a good way to do this.

Laminating a new stack of foam interlaced with glass cloth, and epoxy with structural filler, layer by layer, is going to yield a significantly better result.  That's why the layers are horizontall

I didn’t think there would be so much to consider with getting rid of vermiculite and maybe overthinking but it seems others have put some thought into it too.

There seem to be a couple of schools of thought on this and while the fiber mixed with epoxy only “pouring” method appears to work and hold up nicely per photos above. Waterline instructions and direction from our local measurer advise using the Penske board / cloth “brick laying” method referenced and pictured in Dogfish4255 posts above. 

I am not sure if this is a structural or weight concern, or both. I understand that the Penske board method will be a bit lighter opposed to just filling the sump with resin and fiber but considering the somewhat small size of the sump I don’t see the weight difference being much between the two methods. I guess the class has decided replacing vermiculite / resin mix with straight resin and fiber will yield significantly heavier result than using board, cloth and resin sandwich?  Or are they more simply concerned with the difference in weight between the original verm install and new epoxy fill regardless of method? Are we talking a lot of weight? It sounds like the standard back in the day was to “pour” the mix straight away no foam board. Now they want you to use the foam and cloth. It’s not lead shot type weight difference, what are are we talking a couple pounds? Either way, short of adding gravel or shot, wouldn’t either method be lighter then the original?  Perhaps I’m underestimating the weight of straight epoxy compared to verm mixed with epoxy. I’m not sure if the 80 lbs. I’ve heard referenced as the original vermiculite weight includes the bunch they put all throughout under the floor. 

Anyways, If loss of weight is enough to bring the boat under minimum and cause one to be adding corrector weights doesn’t seem right. It seems like the old verm boats doing the job now get screwed a bit. Not sure why you can’t put back exactly the weight you took out and instead they make you put it in the ends of the boat. Oh well I guess. The new solid glass floor stringers are additional weight so perhaps that’s part of the consideration.

Weight differences aside, while the straight pour method appears okay, class and builder are directing to use the bricklaying method so that’s how we’ll go.  At the end of day, layers of epoxy resin, Penske foam, and cloth tabbed to the walls of sump seem to be more structurally significant when compared to a pour of resin and strands.

Looking for two things with this verm job, losing soaked verm extra / inconsistent weight  and stiffening the boat a bit.

Interesting to see the changes in ideas over time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This is a little frustrating, there must be a bunch of boats out there that all have different versions of the vermiculite repair.

I can see why theres been so many different approaches. The class didn’t do a great job providing a detailed,

consistent repair. Squalamax,  I don’t see how filling forward section buries any keel bolt.

It seems the pouring method was the class approved method for quite a while.

the early soggy sole repair is something else.

Soggy sole repair page 18 - http://j24archives.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Vol.-16-April-1986.pdf

Retrofitting vermiculite early boats page 15 - http://j24archives.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Vol.-19-Fall-1987.pdf

Retrofitting vermiculite early boats page 15 - http://j24archives.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Vol.-21-Fall-1988.pdf

The Mushy Vermiculite problem page 15 - http://j24archives.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Vol.-23-Fall-1989.pdf

This reference is good but they lay the foam vertically, so just another take -  replacing rotted floors page 119 http://dl.kashti.ir/ENBOOKS/FBIR.pdf

This is Waterlines instructions for their kit. vermiculite removal.doc

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On 11/16/2018 at 4:22 PM, Great Red Shark said:

While polyester resin IS cheaper,  Epoxy is a lot stronger and has much better secondary bonding (attachment to previously-cured material) - in other words,  it's a lot stickier.  Epoxy also absorbs much less moisture.

Because it costs more,  using a solid filler like the G10 plates greatly reduces the amount of material you need to buy and it a lot easier to work with - if you loaded up fabric with resin to the same mass you'd have a LOT of heat there.

Just my 2cents

We did my nephews boat with epoxy. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The G10 plate method is a great method and is probably quicker than doing the "pouring "method. 

Heat is kept to a minimum by pouring the resin in thin layers, allowing each pour to "kick" before pouring the next layer. It takes all day to finish the pour if I remember correctly. 

If I were to do it again, I would investigate the G10 method, just because its probably alot quicker.  

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