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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Peanut Butter

Ridiculously Overpriced Boats

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We've already got the "Mocking" thread.

Never divide your forces.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I don't know, $2200 for a nice trailer and a bunch of FD parts and sails isn't all that unreasonable. Much easier to sell if you get that crappy boat off the trailer :rolleyes:

Especially if you take two or three zeros off that price.

That "boat" is another WTF? entry. Trailer has at least been painted and had a nice new jack & winch added recently, almost worth having for the price of driving over there to get it.

What I don't understand is why people want to sell boats when they have zero knowledge. "What do you think this thing is?" "I dunno, with those ropes & wires & metal poles and shit , it almost looks like a sailboat." "What do you think it's worth? " "I dunno, but sailboats are expensive. Try for a couple thou, at least."

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Especially if you take two or three zeros off that price.

That "boat" is another WTF? entry. Trailer has at least been painted and had a nice new jack & winch added recently, almost worth having for the price of driving over there to get it.

What I don't understand is why people want to sell boats when they have zero knowledge. "What do you think this thing is?" "I dunno, with those ropes & wires & metal poles and shit , it almost looks like a sailboat." "What do you think it's worth? " "I dunno, but sailboats are expensive. Try for a couple thou, at least."

FB- Doug

The real closer for me was the new bow it needs.

Almost as compelling as all the 20-year old, shagged-out Lasers people ask $2,000 for in cottage season. 

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

He's still trying to flog that? How many years has it been now?

Pretty sure The Major has dropped the price - IIRC it started over $400K.

It isn't listed as a 2011 build anymore either.

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23 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Pretty sure The Major has dropped the price - IIRC it started over $400K.

It isn't listed as a 2011 build anymore either.

Ya, but what the brokerage had said was true in the pursuit of their business. 

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...honey I DO have the boat for sale...I don’t know why it’s not selling...

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Not in this case - he paid full freight to have pro's rebuild it from the mouldings and expects to get it back. Apparently it just sit at the RCYC dock

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53 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Not in this case - he paid full freight to have pro's rebuild it from the mouldings and expects to get it back. Apparently it just sit at the RCYC dock

Between rcyc's dock and wigger's for the winter. I wonder who delivers it back and forth.

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25 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

How sad. I bet he feels Rejected.

By his right hand.

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He's certainly experienced a lot of Rejection here - and in the courts. He should be used to it by now.

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Re the ketch, another case of spending a shitload on the refit, tallying it up, and expecting to get it back...over half million on a 70k boat.  Wonder where an insurance survey would value it...market price plus %50 might put it at $130-150K tops on the very high side.

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5 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

This thread is becoming a pile-up on the one-way street into Hater-ville.

Anyone got any boats to talk about? 

Tons of them here:

Why the second thread?

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3 hours ago, fufkin said:

Re the ketch, another case of spending a shitload on the refit, tallying it up, and expecting to get it back...over half million on a 70k boat.  Wonder where an insurance survey would value it...market price plus %50 might put it at $130-150K tops on the very high side.

Yawl

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Educate me on the why of the presumably rational market.   I understand that there is a shitload of fairly solid fiberglass hulls in every category and size.    They outlast the rigging, interior and owner.   The best way to get a great boat value seems to be finding somebody else’s well done treasure and pay nickels for his refit dollar.   Depreciation makes buying new only slightly smarter than refitting your own.   The collective wisdom is to ignore refit value since non refit comps are dirt cheap.    Why aren’t refit boats with good surveys and yard credentials valued almost as well as new boats?    For the sake of argument, ignore designs maximizing obsolete IOR considerations.   Ignore amateur jobs done amateurly.   Ignore boats intended for use as floating condos with occasional daysails and yearly marina hops often under power, where maximum cabin volume and motoring ability are the primary considerations.   Ignore performance oriented designs in favor of comfortable cruisers.   Ignore wooden boats as their own universe.  Why wouldn’t a solid hull of good shape, well furnished and newly rigged by a quality yard compare favorably to a new boat?   Won’t both require considerable work in 15 years?   What is the difference in speed, pointing or sea friendliness (both boats with new or renewed rigs and sails) if you compare by LOA, LWL, displacement or volume?    Sure a couple extra feet of waterline might gain a fraction of a knot, adding up to maybe 40 nm in a week.   Otherwise, I don’t know the answer and am asking.   They gain stateroom volume per slip length, possibly at the expense of wet decks.   Is this why a buyer willing to pay for the quality of a refit boat he liked would not be as savvy as the new boat buyer?   Maybe my logic error was ignoring the floating condo market.

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17 minutes ago, Beer Can said:

Looks well-maintained but shouldn't that be around a 45k asking price?  Or less?

 

Well rebuilt and probably professionally  maintained. Lightly used over the last bunch of years......spring and fall delivery trips and maybe a trip to the pump out. 

At one point in time a few years back, the asking price had an additional zero with what you think its worth.

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55 minutes ago, Lark said:

Educate me on the why of the presumably rational market.   I understand that there is a shitload of fairly solid fiberglass hulls in every category and size.    They outlast the rigging, interior and owner.   The best way to get a great boat value seems to be finding somebody else’s well done treasure and pay nickels for his refit dollar.   Depreciation makes buying new only slightly smarter than refitting your own.   The collective wisdom is to ignore refit value since non refit comps are dirt cheap.    Why aren’t refit boats with good surveys and yard credentials valued almost as well as new boats?    For the sake of argument, ignore designs maximizing obsolete IOR considerations.   Ignore amateur jobs done amateurly.   Ignore boats intended for use as floating condos with occasional daysails and yearly marina hops often under power, where maximum cabin volume and motoring ability are the primary considerations.   Ignore performance oriented designs in favor of comfortable cruisers.   Ignore wooden boats as their own universe.  Why wouldn’t a solid hull of good shape, well furnished and newly rigged by a quality yard compare favorably to a new boat?   Won’t both require considerable work in 15 years?   What is the difference in speed, pointing or sea friendliness (both boats with new or renewed rigs and sails) if you compare by LOA, LWL, displacement or volume?    Sure a couple extra feet of waterline might gain a fraction of a knot, adding up to maybe 40 nm in a week.   Otherwise, I don’t know the answer and am asking.   They gain stateroom volume per slip length, possibly at the expense of wet decks.   Is this why a buyer willing to pay for the quality of a refit boat he liked would not be as savvy as the new boat buyer?   Maybe my logic error was ignoring the floating condo market.

I've made similar comments in the past. Restored boats are worse than restored cars in that respect. Many well restored boats should bring - and are "worth" - far more than the market will pay. A big bunch of it is just the attitudes out there rather than the "value" of the boat.

A while back there was an essentially brand new Haida for sale in Seattle or environs - it was totally restored from the mouldings up and looked like new. If it was a new boat it would have been close to $100 grand yet everyone sneered at the $20-ish ask. Someone got a great bargain on it.

The C&C 43 up thread is the same thing except the owner is trying to change the market mindset singlehandedly. The remarks about him are based on his long history of being an asshole here, not about the boat which is totally lustworthy. I recently read that the 43 was the personal favourite of one of the Georges and that one is very likely the best in the world but no-one is going to pay $300K for it even if a similar sized, new BeneHuntAlina would cost that or more.

The moral of the story is, as is the same in the car world, buy already done, don't restore it yourself.

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George Cuthbertson's  memorial is being held at the RCYC November 29th under the guidance of Robb Mazza.    you are all  welcome to attend.

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1 hour ago, Lark said:

Educate me on the why of the presumably rational market.   I understand that there is a shitload of fairly solid fiberglass hulls in every category and size.    They outlast the rigging, interior and owner.   The best way to get a great boat value seems to be finding somebody else’s well done treasure and pay nickels for his refit dollar.   Depreciation makes buying new only slightly smarter than refitting your own.   The collective wisdom is to ignore refit value since non refit comps are dirt cheap.    Why aren’t refit boats with good surveys and yard credentials valued almost as well as new boats?    For the sake of argument, ignore designs maximizing obsolete IOR considerations.   Ignore amateur jobs done amateurly.   Ignore boats intended for use as floating condos with occasional daysails and yearly marina hops often under power, where maximum cabin volume and motoring ability are the primary considerations.   Ignore performance oriented designs in favor of comfortable cruisers.   Ignore wooden boats as their own universe.  Why wouldn’t a solid hull of good shape, well furnished and newly rigged by a quality yard compare favorably to a new boat?   Won’t both require considerable work in 15 years?   What is the difference in speed, pointing or sea friendliness (both boats with new or renewed rigs and sails) if you compare by LOA, LWL, displacement or volume?    Sure a couple extra feet of waterline might gain a fraction of a knot, adding up to maybe 40 nm in a week.   Otherwise, I don’t know the answer and am asking.   They gain stateroom volume per slip length, possibly at the expense of wet decks.   Is this why a buyer willing to pay for the quality of a refit boat he liked would not be as savvy as the new boat buyer?   Maybe my logic error was ignoring the floating condo market.

If you ignore all that what is left?

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Some very nice, very good looking, essentially brand new boats.

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24 minutes ago, Rejected said:

George Cuthbertson's  memorial is being held at the RCYC November 29th under the guidance of Robb Mazza.    you are all  welcome to attend.

Wish i could make it.

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4 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

Probably because that thread is likely buried deep in the catacombs? 

Choose your playroom. Don’t matter to me none.

First thread on page one in CA, usually one of the top ten. But don't let me spoil your fun here.

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4 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Yawl

I hear yawls are languishing on the market quite badly these days...maybe they should do another refit and move some masts around.B)

 

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51 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

First thread on page one in CA, usually one of the top ten. But don't let me spoil your fun here.

 

Ahhhh, that’s why. 

I can honestly say I don’t believe I’ve ever visited CA in all my time here.

Come on everybody. Let’s blow this joint. The real party’s down the hall at Cruising Anarchy!

 

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3 hours ago, Lark said:

Educate me on the why of the presumably rational market.   I understand that there is a shitload of fairly solid fiberglass hulls in every category and size.    They outlast the rigging, interior and owner.   The best way to get a great boat value seems to be finding somebody else’s well done treasure and pay nickels for his refit dollar.   Depreciation makes buying new only slightly smarter than refitting your own.   The collective wisdom is to ignore refit value since non refit comps are dirt cheap.    Why aren’t refit boats with good surveys and yard credentials valued almost as well as new boats?    For the sake of argument, ignore designs maximizing obsolete IOR considerations.   Ignore amateur jobs done amateurly.   Ignore boats intended for use as floating condos with occasional daysails and yearly marina hops often under power, where maximum cabin volume and motoring ability are the primary considerations.   Ignore performance oriented designs in favor of comfortable cruisers.   Ignore wooden boats as their own universe.  Why wouldn’t a solid hull of good shape, well furnished and newly rigged by a quality yard compare favorably to a new boat?   Won’t both require considerable work in 15 years?   What is the difference in speed, pointing or sea friendliness (both boats with new or renewed rigs and sails) if you compare by LOA, LWL, displacement or volume?    Sure a couple extra feet of waterline might gain a fraction of a knot, adding up to maybe 40 nm in a week.   Otherwise, I don’t know the answer and am asking.   They gain stateroom volume per slip length, possibly at the expense of wet decks.   Is this why a buyer willing to pay for the quality of a refit boat he liked would not be as savvy as the new boat buyer?   Maybe my logic error was ignoring the floating condo market.

I think your last line answers at least a good part of your question. A lot of people today see what they can get out of a coastal cruiser/weekender/clorox condo, and the big fat interior of a Bene/Junneau/Hanse etc., coupled with the safe if not benign handling characteristics, gives them all they really need, sailing performance being down on the list of priorities. Add to this that there is by far a wider pool of buyers for these boats come resell time and a 300K newish or new boat might seem like a safer bet to some. 

If you look at a 40 year old fibreglass boat with great hull integrity, buy it for 100k, put 100K into it, sell a few years later, it's still worth maybe a 100k. While the new(ish) Beneteau etc.) worth 300k new might easily depecriate 100k in the same amount of time, when it's time to sell, the Bene sells faster to the larger pool of buyers. 

That said, I say that beautiful C&C 43 is worth 250K all day long. Question is, what day, a year or 5 from now, and where is the unique buyer when you need him?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lark said:

Educate me on the why of the presumably rational market.   I understand that there is a shitload of fairly solid fiberglass hulls in every category and size.    They outlast the rigging, interior and owner.   The best way to get a great boat value seems to be finding somebody else’s well done treasure and pay nickels for his refit dollar.   Depreciation makes buying new only slightly smarter than refitting your own.   The collective wisdom is to ignore refit value since non refit comps are dirt cheap.    Why aren’t refit boats with good surveys and yard credentials valued almost as well as new boats?    For the sake of argument, ignore designs maximizing obsolete IOR considerations.   Ignore amateur jobs done amateurly.   Ignore boats intended for use as floating condos with occasional daysails and yearly marina hops often under power, where maximum cabin volume and motoring ability are the primary considerations.   Ignore performance oriented designs in favor of comfortable cruisers.   Ignore wooden boats as their own universe.  Why wouldn’t a solid hull of good shape, well furnished and newly rigged by a quality yard compare favorably to a new boat?   Won’t both require considerable work in 15 years?   What is the difference in speed, pointing or sea friendliness (both boats with new or renewed rigs and sails) if you compare by LOA, LWL, displacement or volume?    Sure a couple extra feet of waterline might gain a fraction of a knot, adding up to maybe 40 nm in a week.   Otherwise, I don’t know the answer and am asking.   They gain stateroom volume per slip length, possibly at the expense of wet decks.   Is this why a buyer willing to pay for the quality of a refit boat he liked would not be as savvy as the new boat buyer?   Maybe my logic error was ignoring the floating condo market.

It's the old "dime on the dollar" rule and it might just be a rule because it's a rule. Markets are that way.

There are exceptions though. Maybe they explain the rule somehow. Specifically, you can get most or all of your money back (way more than a dime on the dollar) by pouring money into an old Potter-built Sea Craft hull. Or an old Bertram hull, particularly a 31. Some sailboats too. New stuff vs old can swing the price of an old F-27 quite a bit.

I was just talking to my wife tonight about the brokerage where I worked trying to sell an Endeavour 32 that had a brand new, zero hours, full warranty from the best local shop Yanmar diesel installed. It eventually sold for... drumroll please... just about the same number I saw on the invoice for that diesel. Which is just about what the same boat with original 1978 power sells for. Go figger.

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Kind of like spending $500,000 restoring a 1973 Chevy wagon. Sure is a nice car, but WTF :wacko:

I was thinking something like spending $60,000 on the wagon vs $65000 for a new Tahoe.   The car has drastically improved over the decades, instead of restoring to matching numbers you would drop a donor fuel injected electronic ignition engine with automatic five speed, front transfer case, add  antilock disk brakes, upgrade sway bars, add air bags, three way seat belts, working cup holders, Bluetooth, navigation, usb chargers, a second radio speaker, etc.   If the result could be expected to compare to the new car for reliable years of operation it would be an interesting decision.   How has the new sailboat changed from the old one, aside from electronics, IMF, self tacking jibs and fake wood?   It seems those things could be added as desired during the refit.  

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The car thing you describe is called a "Resto-mod" and is quite popular - the old style with the new running gear. Expensive to have done though - starts around $50K and nice ones are more like $100K

Unfortunately it doesn't work quite as well with sailboats because the hull shape is such a big component of a boats performance. A cars shape doesn't have nearly the same effect unless you're going to Bonneville with it.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The car thing you describe is called a "Resto-mod" and is quite popular - the old style with the new running gear. Expensive to have done though - starts around $50K and nice ones are more like $100K

Unfortunately it doesn't work quite as well with sailboats because the hull shape is such a big component of a boats performance. A cars shape doesn't have nearly the same effect unless you're going to Bonneville with it.

Sloop, 

From some of your posts over on CA where the real party is at, I've gathered that you know a little bit about restoring old fibreglass, but also cars.

Let me pose this question to you, but also to the esteemed panel at large that seems to be assembling. 

Where do the parallels of classic cars and classic yachts diverge? There may be similarities, and I can see them in the 'resto-mod' category that you mention. But I struggle to find comparisons in the collectible end of the classic car market. 

Case in point. If you've got a 1 million dollar early 60s Aston Martin DB5 sitting in your garage that's been perfectly maintained and is in near mint condition, if you so much as add a small paint touch up to it you might light a fire to a half million. The 'unretouched' end of the classic car market seems to maintain a way higher value than the 'resto-mod' part of the market. 

Are there any comparisons in the classic yacht market, or is there a utilitarian component to the yacht market (I.e. It's gotta be in good shape and usable as opposed to sitting in the tent/garage as a placeholder of value) that the classic car market has managed to outrun in terms of collectibility?

 

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Fufkin, I see a few comparisons in the two markets - boats like Dorade, Ganbare and the Fife restorations in Europe - La Nioulargue and so forth. All wood boats though AFAIK. And totally bottomless pockets needless to say.

That's about it though - I don't know of any glass or metal boats being done like that (yet). You can't really do the barn find thing with boats though - they require constant maintenance to stay alive. That whole thing has become an absurd fetish with some of the car people - don't even wash the car before auction or the price will go down - just stupid. Like the people who objected to cleaning the smoke and ash off the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

As I said, the wood boat people are where that mentality, or the closest comparison to it exists in the boat world. WoodenBoat mag recently ran an article about the restoration of a 100 Y.O. Herreshoff done with that "curated" mentality - duplicating all the errors of the original build like fasteners that missed a frame and ended up hanging in mid air, cutting beams too short and shimming them etc.

I can see it if it is going into a museum as part of the historical record but otherwise it is just an OCD fetish of "Mine's purer than yours".

In terms of real world, useable boats, I think a "resto-mod" comparison is the way to go - new hardware, new fibers, epoxy instead of hide glue and red lead etc.

I think the "Spirit of Tradition" boats are another attempt to capture what is wonderful about the old stuff while improving it at the same time - they are kind of "resto-mods" I guess but have included the hull design as well. More of a retro new build really, like a new Dodge Challenger.

Anyway, that's my view and I'm never wrong about these things. ;)

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19 hours ago, fufkin said:

I say that beautiful C&C 43 is worth 250K all day long.

"worth" is defined by what someone is willing to pay.

And most buyers aren't looking to spend 200k for someone else's upgrades to a 46 year old production boat that - without the upgrades - is probably "worth" about 50k

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If I own a boat, I can ask any price I want. You as the buyer can pay whatever you think is right as well. If you think my price is too high either offer a different price or walk away.  That is called capitalism.  

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1 minute ago, LionessRacing said:

if you have to value your toy by what somebody else would pay, you probably can't afford it. 

 

this............and you wouldn't attempt it even in your dreams.........art for art's sake ......anyone who made a small fortune in boat renovation started with a large one........... 

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21 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Fufkin, I see a few comparisons in the two markets - boats like Dorade, Ganbare and the Fife restorations in Europe - La Nioulargue and so forth. All wood boats though AFAIK. And totally bottomless pockets needless to say.

That's about it though - I don't know of any glass or metal boats being done like that (yet). You can't really do the barn find thing with boats though - they require constant maintenance to stay alive. That whole thing has become an absurd fetish with some of the car people - don't even wash the car before auction or the price will go down - just stupid. Like the people who objected to cleaning the smoke and ash off the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

As I said, the wood boat people are where that mentality, or the closest comparison to it exists in the boat world. WoodenBoat mag recently ran an article about the restoration of a 100 Y.O. Herreshoff done with that "curated" mentality - duplicating all the errors of the original build like fasteners that missed a frame and ended up hanging in mid air, cutting beams too short and shimming them etc.

I can see it if it is going into a museum as part of the historical record but otherwise it is just an OCD fetish of "Mine's purer than yours".

In terms of real world, useable boats, I think a "resto-mod" comparison is the way to go - new hardware, new fibers, epoxy instead of hide glue and red lead etc.

I think the "Spirit of Tradition" boats are another attempt to capture what is wonderful about the old stuff while improving it at the same time - they are kind of "resto-mods" I guess but have included the hull design as well. More of a retro new build really, like a new Dodge Challenger.

Anyway, that's my view and I'm never wrong about these things. ;)

A couple other comments to add to what Sloop says...which I totally agree with OBTW.

I think there is a big difference in the "use case" between collector cars and vintage/classic sailboats.  Most truly expensive collector cars go "into" collections and largely sit there to be admired...and in many cases with a hope they will "appreciate."  The exception is in truly vintage car race events like Goodwood, where you regularly see $$$$ cars being flogged on the track.  Vintage/Classic sailboats on the other hand are hard to "store" in a collection...so only exist in the "use it/race it" category, thus greatly limiting the number of folks interested in the first place.

 

Other comment is that Resto-mod cars, while cool, do not have all the modern safety features of newer cars (Airbags, crumple zones, door intrusion beams, etc), so you can only bring a resto-mod part way to modern.  Therefore, they tend to exist only in the Sunday driver/show car type of world, and not really in the commute 30 miles into downtown LA world.  Resto-boats, outside of the hull, could have all the modern gear/features....no reason an restored boat couldn't have a carbon stick, the latest in standing rigging and running rigging, all new deck gear, 3Di sails, and maybe even updated foils, etc, etc.  

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On 11/25/2017 at 11:15 PM, SloopJonB said:

The car thing you describe is called a "Resto-mod" and is quite popular - the old style with the new running gear. Expensive to have done though - starts around $50K and nice ones are more like $100K

Unfortunately it doesn't work quite as well with sailboats because the hull shape is such a big component of a boats performance. A cars shape doesn't have nearly the same effect unless you're going to Bonneville with it.

Actually, displacement and stability dominate performance. Hull shape has a big impact on performance only in ways that reduce displacement or increase stability. Of course hull shape has some impact, just a LOT less than displacement and stability.

Compare a Class 40 to an Olson 40, for example. More stability at about the same weight gives the Class 40 a dominating advantage, even with a much higher drag, more wetted surface hull shape.

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I was thinking more along the lines of full keels VS fins and the like, not the more subtle aspects you reference.

I doubt Class 40's are ready to be resto-modded yet. ;)

You can resto-mod a Westsail 32 to your wallets discontent and it will still be a slug.

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21 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I was thinking more along the lines of full keels VS fins and the like, not the more subtle aspects you reference.

I doubt Class 40's are ready to be resto-modded yet. ;)

You can resto-mod a Westsail 32 to your wallets discontent and it will still be a slug.that is ho

And I think this is the nub of it. Designers have learned a lot and made substantial gains in achieving performance, utility and comfort in a given LOA and, like it or not, that is how the buyers out there categorize them. "My newish 40 footer has two heads and rates thirty seconds a mile faster than your 40 footer with one head. Ergo, mines worth three times as much". The fact that the older boat with less beam and LWL probably should be compared against a newish 33 footer doesn't get considered. Unless of course the older boat is one of those rare classics which actually can achieve ridiculously overpriced status at sale. I'm thinking of a Bermuda 40 here. 

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A classic to look at for resto mod comparison and performance issues is  Usual Suspect.......a C&C 43 Custom from 1973 I believe.  (see yachtworld.com).    It was beautifully redone at Bruckmann probably 14 years ago and won the Chicago Mackinac in 2011.   It is now for sale in Fiji having had a delightful cruise by the owner.     No newish 40 footers beat Usual Suspect either in the Mac or the many races it did in Lake Ontario.    I think it also won its division in Sorc  back in 2004 or thereabouts.    Brian will never get his money out of it  but he does not care as he did it knowing  that it was George Cuthbertson's  favourite design and as stated by Mark Ellis,   was as  seminal to C&C Custom as was Saudade to  S&S,   way back in the day.    Resto mods  ( I like the term )  are not for everyone.     Our current crop of 30 plus year old sailors  have little education or understanding of the history of racing or the provenance of racing,   so the market  is not very big.    A lot of the people that like the concept sadly do not have the money.    Contrary to  the opinions of those that don't know,   a  restoration will take upwards of 7,000 hours at $100 per hour in a quality yard.    Another $400k  in  everything else from wire to winches to electronics and sails  makes a resto mod  beyond the abilities of pretty well everyone in a normal yacht club.     They will buy a  relatively cheap new boat.    But remember you get what you pay for,  in more ways than one.

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1 hour ago, kinardly said:

The fact that the older boat with less beam and LWL probably should be compared against a newish 33 footer doesn't get considered.

That is the biggest point - comparing new and old on LOA is completely meaningless since boats are generally plumb ended now.

Comparing on LWL and Disp is the only valid way to compare old & new for "size". A friends recentish Hunter 38 was almost exactly the same size as my old Columbia 43 in all significant dimensions except LOA.

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1 hour ago, kinardly said:

Unless of course the older boat is one of those rare classics which actually can achieve ridiculously overpriced status at sale. I'm thinking of a Bermuda 40 here. 

It's only ridiculously overpriced if you are buying by dimension, or head/berth count instead of value. $/linear or cubic foot drives you to other choices than a vessel built by hand, using state of the industry methods and materials and finished by craftsmen.

You can find a lot cheaper pieces of painted canvas than those hanging in museums and signed by some dude named Picasso.

The modern swept spreader, open transom, high freeboard fin keel factory made boats certainly "do a lot of things better," than my full keel, yawl rigged stately lady, who rates  a blazing 174 in PHRF at 40' LOA while sleeping a comfortable 6, Heck they even steer in reverse. 

But, I doubt many of their owners get told their boats are "pretty" and they certainly won't be worth their original purchase price (or more) > 50 yrs later. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Crash said:

A couple other comments to add to what Sloop says...which I totally agree with OBTW.

I think there is a big difference in the "use case" between collector cars and vintage/classic sailboats.  Most truly expensive collector cars go "into" collections and largely sit there to be admired...and in many cases with a hope they will "appreciate."  The exception is in truly vintage car race events like Goodwood, where you regularly see $$$$ cars being flogged on the track.  Vintage/Classic sailboats on the other hand are hard to "store" in a collection...so only exist in the "use it/race it" category, thus greatly limiting the number of folks interested in the first place.

 

Other comment is that Resto-mod cars, while cool, do not have all the modern safety features of newer cars (Airbags, crumple zones, door intrusion beams, etc), so you can only bring a resto-mod part way to modern.  Therefore, they tend to exist only in the Sunday driver/show car type of world, and not really in the commute 30 miles into downtown LA world.  Resto-boats, outside of the hull, could have all the modern gear/features....no reason an restored boat couldn't have a carbon stick, the latest in standing rigging and running rigging, all new deck gear, 3Di sails, and maybe even updated foils, etc, etc.  

The closest boat I can think of that compares to a resto-modded car would be the replica of the schooner America. Carbon rigs with wood veneer. 

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55 minutes ago, Monkey said:

The closest boat I can think of that compares to a resto-modded car would be the replica of the schooner America. Carbon rigs with wood veneer. 

Wondering whether some of the recently IRC modded tonners like Black Fun and Swuzzlebubble could be considered resto-modded.  Too new?

Black Fun looks a lot different than her original IOR config whereas, Swuzzlebubble looks fairly similar (other than the foils and open transom).

Blackfun 3.jpg

P1030144.JPG

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I'd be inclined to call those two Hot Rodded. The C&C 43 upthread is more what I'd call a resto-mod - pretty much only the mouldings are original. A true resto mod car only has the body shell original.

These sort of categories or dividing lines are pretty vague though - there are any number of categories in the car world. Just in hot rodding there are; hot rods, street rods, pro street, pro touring, resto-mod, resto-rod etc. In collector cars, what distinguishes a "barn find" from a "survivor"? Dirt?

A lot of it is just fashion - which I've always found kind of contradictory in something like modified cars. A bit like chines on sailboats these days.

My personal attitude for both cars and boats is simply "Is it nice"? Beyond that I don't care much about what category it may fall into.

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is it nice........that makes sense........do you love what has  been created.........I loved the 43's  after racing against them at the Rochester yacht club.....they were so pretty and fast and just so awesome..........it led to getting into design/build.....it created Dobroth and Wiggers.......and now none of them exist.......it is a huge loss..........sad.

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5 hours ago, Rejected said:

No newish 40 footers beat Usual Suspect either in the Mac or the many races it did in Lake Ontario.    I think it also won its division in Sorc  back in 2004 or thereabouts.    Brian will never get his money out of it  but he does not care as he did it knowing  that it was George Cuthbertson's  favourite design and as stated by Mark Ellis,   was as  seminal to C&C Custom as was Saudade to  S&S,   way back in the day.    Resto mods  ( I like the term )  are not for everyone.     Our current crop of 30 plus year old sailors  have little education or understanding of the history of racing or the provenance of racing,   so the market  is not very big.    A lot of the people that like the concept sadly do not have the money.    Contrary to  the opinions of those that don't know,   a  restoration will take upwards of 7,000 hours at $100 per hour in a quality yard.    Another $400k  in  everything else from wire to winches to electronics and sails  makes a resto mod  beyond the abilities of pretty well everyone in a normal yacht club.     They will buy a  relatively cheap new boat.    But remember you get what you pay for,  in more ways than one.

I could be wrong but I would be willing to bet that if Usual Suspects raced distance races on Lake Ontario at any time after 1990 it would have been beaten by Macintosh at least once, but what would I know I am only a 30 something year old sailor with little education or understanding of the history of racing.

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7 minutes ago, Rejected said:

is it nice........that makes sense........do you love what has  been created.........I loved the 43's  after racing against them at the Rochester yacht club.....they were so pretty and fast and just so awesome..........it led to getting into design/build.....it created Dobroth and Wiggers.......and now none of them exist.......it is a huge loss..........sad.

That still doesn't make the 46 year old c&c worth much more than 40k. You are delusional if you think it is.

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5 minutes ago, basketcase said:

That still doesn't make the 46 year old c&c worth much more than 40k. You are delusional if you think it is.

Certainly not on the open market.  But there may be ONE person with $300k burning a hole in their wallet who falls in love with and all it represents it and just HAS to have it.  Highly unlikely, but possible - it only takes one person.  Possibly insane - but only one.

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4 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Certainly not on the open market.  But there may be ONE person with $300k burning a hole in their wallet who falls in love with and all it represents it and just HAS to have it.  Highly unlikely, but possible - it only takes one person.  Possibly insane - but only one.

True, except when you are that one person and you already own the boat.

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or perhaps two of them ........ les miserables........it is so sad how the alt left hate everyone else that are so much more wealthy.........

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58 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I could be wrong but I would be willing to bet that if Usual Suspects raced distance races on Lake Ontario at any time after 1990 it would have been beaten by Macintosh at least once, but what would I know I am only a 30 something year old sailor with little education or understanding of the history of racing.

Suspect and Mac were very evenly matched and faced off in a few Hoods in the 2000s (on the rare occasions when both boats were on the lake).  I believe they each won once when dueling with the other...

 

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40 minutes ago, Rejected said:

or perhaps two of them ........ les miserables........it is so sad how the alt left hate everyone else that are so much more wealthy.........

Surely you mean one fuckwit with two overpriced boats. 

 You tool.

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2 hours ago, basketcase said:

That still doesn't make the 46 year old c&c worth much more than 40k. You are delusional if you think it is.

Actually Basket, the 43's command a better price than that - generally into 6 figures. IIRC there was one in Sausalito a couple of years ago that was still original and was cheaper but they don't go for $40K. Agree that no-one is going to pay 300 large for one though

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?cit=true&slim=quick&ybw=&sm=3&searchtype=advancedsearch&Ntk=boatsEN&Ntt=&is=&man=C%26C&hmid=0&ftid=0&enid=0&type=(Sail)&fromLength=43&toLength=43&fromYear=&toYear=1980&fromPrice=&toPrice=&luom=126&currencyid=1000&city=&pbsint=&boatsAddedSelected=-1

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1 hour ago, Rejected said:

or perhaps two of them ........ les miserables........it is so sad how the alt left hate everyone else that are so much more wealthy.........

And here I thought you had perhaps turned a corner in your level of ignorance.

I was misinformed.

And I have a better investment counselor than you.

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2 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Certainly not on the open market.  But there may be ONE person with $300k burning a hole in their wallet who falls in love with and all it represents it and just HAS to have it.  Highly unlikely, but possible - it only takes one person.  Possibly insane - but only one.

Well there's another C&C 40 built/launched 1966? I believe (LOA 39 and change) on Lake Ontario that was a huge SORC competitor that changed hands about ten years ago that might fit this description. But I disagree with the insane part. Some historical boats, might retain value due to their historical importance. (i.e. They become collectable.) 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

And here I thought you had perhaps turned a corner in your level of ignorance.

I was misinformed.

And I have a better investment counselor than you.

So you are not using the 3b law firm, as we all know they 'are not investment counselors'.

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But they are so much more wealthy than all those envyous haters. ;)

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2 hours ago, fufkin said:

Well there's another C&C 40 built/launched 1966? I believe (LOA 39 and change) on Lake Ontario that was a huge SORC competitor that changed hands about ten years ago that might fit this description. But I disagree with the insane part. Some historical boats, might retain value due to their historical importance. (i.e. They become collectable.) 

Probably Odenbach’s  “Rampage” out of RYC. One of them was a Redline 41, succeeding one(s) also C&C 40/39 range. Think Rampage became “Latent Image” 

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3 hours ago, fufkin said:

Well there's another C&C 40 built/launched 1966? I believe (LOA 39 and change) on Lake Ontario that was a huge SORC competitor that changed hands about ten years ago that might fit this description. But I disagree with the insane part. Some historical boats, might retain value due to their historical importance. (i.e. They become collectable.) 

True, but my comments were with regard to the C&C 43 in question

The  boat you are referring to would be the Redline 41 "Red Jacket" which won 1967 SORC and is allegedly the first cored boat built.  She was designed by C&C, but predates C&C Yachts.

Red Jacket may be able to sell for a premium because of her historical significance, but the same could not be said for other Redline 41s.  There is a very nice one advertised in West Van right with an asking price of about $80k

Some IOR boats that IMO might sell for a substantial premium because of their historical significance (provided they are in excellent condition) include: Ganbare, Magic Bus, and Imp.

I might even include Terrorist in that group because of her revolutionary design -which was quickly banned.  Okay, not banned, but heavily penalized.  She was laying falling apart in a yard in Port Townsend a few years ago until someone in Texas bought her and did a wonderful restoration job on her.  I think they even kept her infamous bilge boards.

terr7 best.JPG

Terrorist.jpg

Terrorist_Aug 14_2.jpg

Aug 13_2.jpg

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28 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

No traveler?

I'm guessing it is on the front side of the crew partition.  Looks like there may be a base for a curved track in this photo - down low on the front side.

Topsides_stern.jpg

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6 hours ago, 12 metre said:

True, but my comments were with regard to the C&C 43 in question

The  boat you are referring to would be the Redline 41 "Red Jacket" which won 1967 SORC and is allegedly the first cored boat built.  She was designed by C&C, but predates C&C Yachts.

Red Jacket may be able to sell for a premium because of her historical significance, but the same could not be said for other Redline 41s.  There is a very nice one advertised in West Van right with an asking price of about $80k

Some IOR boats that IMO might sell for a substantial premium because of their historical significance (provided they are in excellent condition) include: Ganbare, Magic Bus, and Imp.

I might even include Terrorist in that group because of her revolutionary design -which was quickly banned.  Okay, not banned, but heavily penalized.  She was laying falling apart in a yard in Port Townsend a few years ago until someone in Texas bought her and did a wonderful restoration job on her.  I think they even kept her infamous bilge boards.

 

Hiya 12M, the Redline 41 was a development of Red Jacket but they are not the same design.  Here's info on Jacket's original history (there's also a pretty significant connection between Bruckmann Yachts and at least one of the 43s discussed above):  http://www.bruckmannyachts.com/index.php/company/red-jacket/

 

And here's how Red Jacket's looking now:  updated, competitive, and still maintained in bristol fashion:

5a1d570fb7a29_RJ01.JPG.2847aedb289e06e929d6e1c7437c0b36.JPG5a1d572084c4c_RJ05.JPG.33c2a17454f32ae4f51e6cded29945ad.JPG

 

I know the C&C 43's got great lineage and was one of big George's favourites, but they're a bit rotund when compared to the style and grace of a Redline 41.  That's always been my ultimate resto mod since I first set eyes on Bagatelle as a young sailing school brat at KYC.  She's still there 47 years later, same slip, same owner...  I sometimes dream of what kinda franken-resto I'd do if I only had the means...

 

Cheers!

 

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5 hours ago, 12 metre said:

True, but my comments were with regard to the C&C 43 in question

The  boat you are referring to would be the Redline 41 "Red Jacket" which won 1967 SORC and is allegedly the first cored boat built.  She was designed by C&C, but predates C&C Yachts.

Red Jacket may be able to sell for a premium because of her historical significance, but the same could not be said for other Redline 41s.  There is a very nice one advertised in West Van right with an asking price of about $80k

Some IOR boats that IMO might sell for a substantial premium because of their historical significance (provided they are in excellent condition) include: Ganbare, Magic Bus, and Imp.

I might even include Terrorist in that group because of her revolutionary design -which was quickly banned.  Okay, not banned, but heavily penalized.  She was laying falling apart in a yard in Port Townsend a few years ago until someone in Texas bought her and did a wonderful restoration job on her.  I think they even kept her infamous bilge boards.

terr7 best.JPG

Terrorist.jpg

Terrorist_Aug 14_2.jpg

Aug 13_2.jpg

That is awesome. Looks like a beautiful restoration along with suitable updates/upgrades thrown in.

New Orleans has a lot of shallow water, it would totally make sense to keep the bilgeboards.

Kudos to the owner(s) of Red Jacket also, that's a beautiful (and lucky) boat.

FB- Doug

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

And here I thought you had perhaps turned a corner in your level of ignorance.

I was misinformed.

And I have a better investment counselor than you.

sorry to have offended you and Basketweave......combination of  a couple of  preprandial libations and anti right  CNN hate mongering  got the better of me.......perhaps I should say to the viewing public that I do not write about you and Weave  who i know are sound fairminded men (I think men)  who would never say something nasty or out someone even though they hate that person and I do not know if you two are lefties  and/or envious.......I humbly beg foregiveness for  causing you pain .     You are both still welcome at  rcyc  for the GC memorial on wednesday  and i shall happily help you both at the bar with right wing drinks to George.     

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39 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

Hiya 12M, the Redline 41 was a development of Red Jacket but they are not the same design.  Here's info on Jacket's original history (there's also a pretty significant connection between Bruckmann Yachts and at least one of the 43s discussed above):  http://www.bruckmannyachts.com/index.php/company/red-jacket/

 

And here's how Red Jacket's looking now:  updated, competitive, and still maintained in bristol fashion:

5a1d570fb7a29_RJ01.JPG.2847aedb289e06e929d6e1c7437c0b36.JPG5a1d572084c4c_RJ05.JPG.33c2a17454f32ae4f51e6cded29945ad.JPG

 

I know the C&C 43's got great lineage and was one of big George's favourites, but they always looked a bit rotund when compared to the style and grace of a Redline 41.  That's always been my ultimate resto mod since I first set eyes on Bagatelle as a young sailing school brat at KYC.  She's still there 47 years later, same slip, same owner...  I sometimes dream of what kinda franken-resto I'd do if I only had the means...

 

Cheers!

 

Great boat and still lovely to look at and well cared for.    Usual Suspect is perhaps the last 43,  but I think Long Reach was the last one,   but  U S   didn't do too bad  winning  Chicago Mac in 2011  and  her class at SORC in around 2004 .   I think she beat RJ  racing on Lake Ontario as well.   Not sure but I am sure somebody is.

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8 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Probably Odenbach’s  “Rampage” out of RYC. One of them was a Redline 41, succeeding one(s) also C&C 40/39 range. Think Rampage became “Latent Image” 

Rampage was at RCYC  last i looked,   still called Rampage and painted white and well kept.   Owned by Randy Bell  I believe  who i think at one time worked for C&C Custom.   Maybe not.   Someone would know.     Beautiful boat totally unrestored  and well sailed.     Odenbach JR  has a modern condo style boat and has not exhibited any interest in nostalgia when at RCYC.    Some do and some don't .    I think he sees boats as just appliances with no soul  or historical significance.   Sad,   as the family has money and could make a statement of historical signifcance if they so chose.

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2 hours ago, Rejected said:

Sad,   as the family has money and could make a statement of historical signifcance if they so chose.

Not all passions cross generations. I lived briefly adjacent to the Odenbach's "summer cottage" on Ontario Blvd in Manitou Beach back in '61-65 or so. 

We hauled our Oday Sprite up a slide on the seawall, they had a ~200ft concrete pier which I think once had a boat tied to it, it made a great place to fish as a young boy. 

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On 11/25/2017 at 1:09 AM, SloopJonB said:

He's certainly experienced a lot of Rejection here - and in the courts. He should be used to it by now.

Can I assume we are speaking of David Probale or whatever his handle was?

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