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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
KnockedDown

YRALIS PHRF Committee Purge

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i believe all will be revealed Sunday evening............or at least what is to come

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Just now, dacapo said:

i believe all will be revealed Sunday evening............or at least what is to come

Our they realley considerting the yumonoide robotte optione?

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Just now, Snaggletooth said:

Our they realley considerting the yumonoide robotte optione?

yes :ph34r: 

 

also for consideration will be the cash/check/debit card   option   

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1 minute ago, dacapo said:

yes :ph34r:

"Thack you forre youre inputte and partissipatione.  Halve a nice daye"                    :)

3 minutes ago, dacapo said:

also for consideration will be the cash/check/debit card   option   

Allso nowene as "SC Optione"                                              :)

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No abrupt removal of people from the organization = no purge

Rumor has it the brain trust walked en masse

Prepared for the shizzit to hit the fan?

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Dear Commodore, Race Chair, and other members of each respective yacht club's Organizing Authorities, 

 

I am writing to you all to make note of some significant changes in your YRA of LIS for 2018.

 

First, a reminder that yacht club memberships can now be renewed through the YRA website  and Amex is now accepted. An invoice will still be generated by our accounting office as we move into the new year but please feel free to proceed without the paper reminder.

 

Second, our bylaws state "Each Club or other yachting association that is a member of the Association in good standing shall be entitled to appoint from its membership one Delegate to the Association...." This practice fell by the wayside over ten years ago and I feel at this time, as all of us involved in the management of our sport feel the increased burden of lessening participation and search for solutions, that having a direct conduit between Club and YRA is an important connection we need to renew.  I will ask each of you, as you go through the transition in club leadership in the next month or two, to appoint your YRA of LIS delegate and please forward to me, personally, that person's contact information. We are planning a meeting over the winter months for the Delegates and the Executive Board to discuss the state of our sport and how we can work together to improve our navigation through these turbulent waters.

 

Third, PHRF is evolving as well to reflect the current state of sailing on Long Island Sound. Notably, the weight credit system, long viewed as impossible to enforce by Organizing Authorities, onerous to protest by competitors, and rife with abuse on the race course  is being eliminated. And we are establishing a PHRF Technical Committee that will use the new regs from last year to allow for a more linear enforcement of boats that do not sail in compliance with their PHRF certificate.  I will be discussing some of this at this coming Sunday's annual meeting at Larchmont and the revised PHRF regulations will be updated in the 2018 Race Program.

 

Fourth,  Subsequent to these Executive Board decisions effecting regulations and enforcement, a number of long-standing members of the PHRF committee felt it was not in their purview or professional interest to be, perhaps, in the position of "PHRF Cop", if you will, and have resigned. We all should offer thanks and gratitude to Rick Royce, George Samalot, Bob Kendrick, Mark Plock, Rich Gold, Matt Berger and Andrew Weiss who have all put in countless hours and wrangled though reams of paperwork to build our PHRF database and rankings to be second to none in this country. 

 

 Frankly, no one in any volunteer position should feel obligated to put in multiple decades of service for any activity and it is time for a reshuffling of the deck. We need a more consistent turnover in the committee to keep the awareness of what is going on in the racing community of LIS current and valid. And we want to have a representation of a broad cross-section of handicappers from the 60 plus member clubs that make up this organization. And we would like to have representation from the sailing community with a little less gray in their hair, to put it bluntly. 

 

I need approx. 6 more people for 2018 and am looking to you for nominees from your club membership for these positions. You know the right person-someone with a history of sailing on multiple boats, and who is currently still sailing, an awareness of how boats are built and work and a love of the sport and of fair competition. 

 

I will be stepping in as acting Interim Chair of the PHRF committee this year to ease through the transition so please forward prospective names to me and I will bring them to the current committee members for a consensus.

 

Thanks for the continued support of our sport and I look forward to seeing many of you this Sunday, 

 

Best, 

 

 

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19 hours ago, adrianl said:

No more weight allowances, new committee members needed, etc

 

Why not completely eliminate weight restrictions?

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footlong - they will be eliminated according to Steve's release above.

No more taking weight credit for 8 people if the cert rules allow 10  and then showing up with 10 when the breeze is up.

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13 minutes ago, footlong said:

I'm not talking about credits. I say get rid of max weight all together.

Agree. Crew weight is self limiting. Only so much room for all the arses.

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6 hours ago, TBone said:

No abrupt removal of people from the organization = no purge

Rumor has it the brain trust walked en masse

Prepared for the shizzit to hit the fan?

It was pretty abrupt and could well be described as a "purge". The YRALIS bylaws give the YRALIS President an absolute right to appoint/dismiss committee members at will. Some life members of the PHRF Committee disputed that absolute right. Ultimately there was a bit of a dust up over PHRF Committee not willing to enforce PHRF regs and certs and that is what lead to some being "allowed" to resign.

Expo for PHRF Prez! That's the ticket. Get it sorted out toute de suite.

On a serious note though, el Presidente is looking for nominations to serve the reconstituted PHRF Committee. Now is everyone's chance to do something more than just grouse under the tent.

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3 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Ultimately there was a bit of a dust up over PHRF Committee not willing to enforce PHRF regs and certs and that is what lead to some being "allowed" to resign.

Me thinks you forgot this is a self-policed sport.  No PHRF organization is responsible for policing.  YOU are responsible for policing.  You agree to follow the rules, which includes the PHRF rules.  If you believe someone is not following the PHRF rules you can file a protest for that race.  Please keep this in mind going forward.

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38 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Me thinks you forgot this is a self-policed sport.  No PHRF organization is responsible for policing.  YOU are responsible for policing.  You agree to follow the rules, which includes the PHRF rules.  If you believe someone is not following the PHRF rules you can file a protest for that race.  Please keep this in mind going forward.

You missed the memo. Even on the west coast we know bill is a bastard. He just likes to make things difficult. 

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11 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Me thinks you forgot this is a self-policed sport.  No PHRF organization is responsible for policing.  YOU are responsible for policing.  You agree to follow the rules, which includes the PHRF rules.  If you believe someone is not following the PHRF rules you can file a protest for that race.  Please keep this in mind going forward.

Thanks for letting everyone know what they need to keep in mind.  Perhaps you should keep in mind that when possessing near perfect ignorance about a situation, the best course of option is to say nothing.

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20 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Me thinks you forgot this is a self-policed sport.  No PHRF organization is responsible for policing.  YOU are responsible for policing.  You agree to follow the rules, which includes the PHRF rules.  If you believe someone is not following the PHRF rules you can file a protest for that race.  Please keep this in mind going forward.

More like that is my mantra.,... and by self-policing, it is every sailor's personal obligation to police one's self first and foremost. One would hope any sailor who is worth their salt would RAF were an infraction brought to their attention. Right up until that moment, folks make mistakes and all deserve the benefit of doubt IMHO. It becomes full on cheating when they are made firmly aware of their indiscretion(s). 

Issue arose this past season where someone on the PHRF board came forward with a photo clearly demonstrating a boat with several violations. OA that the pic was taken during, which was that most recent weekend, said that the window had closed for a valid protest,  awards awarded and deferred to the PHRF committee.

And Mr. McCarthy, you are mistaken that the PHRF Committee is not responsible for "policing" certificate violations. RRS clearly state that PHRF is a class and for the purposes of class rules enforcement that befalls on the class measurer. PHRF chair is the class measurer by default unless someone is specifically charged with that responsibility.

BTW, this in not the first season in WLIS that this has reared its ugly head. However this time round it all came to a full boil. Sadly it looks like a boat known to be in violation of their cert on numerous occasions will receive one of YRALIS's top seasonal awards. Damn shame.

This is the case that has precipitated the PHRF Committee seeing a change of watch. Long overdue but not without a great deal of effort on many folks part to see it through. They know who they are and are to be commended.

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12 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

And Mr. McCarthy, you are mistaken that the PHRF Committee is not responsible for "policing" certificate violations.

RRS clearly state that PHRF is a class

Yes (Definitions:  Rule ( d )).

and for the purposes of class rules enforcement that befalls on the class measurer.

Strangely the word 'measurer' does not appear in the 2017 RRS.  Perhaps you mean something else.

What rule do you think is applicable to this effect?

PHRF chair is the class measurer by default unless someone is specifically charged with that responsibility.

What rule or regulation says this?

 

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YRALIS PHRF Regulations State:
"If the PHRF Committee is notified or discovers that an owner is not in compliance with the above, the Committee may file a protest with the YRA of LIS Executive Committee.  This protest will be heard by a properly constituted panel of three Judges.  The panel of Judges may recommend to the PHRF Committee the revocation of the certificate in question.  The revocation may be made retroactively. The panel may also suspend the owner's privilege to participate in any YRA of LIS event for a prescribed period of time."

At first blush:
1. There are a lot of "mays" in there.  No one is required to do anything.
2. I'd sure have to sit down with the rule book to make sense of this process. Obviously someone saw this during the event and even took a picture. Why did they fail to file within the protest time limit, and why should anyone keep looking for ways around the protest time limit?  I mean, this "properly constituted panel" of YRALIS PHRF, are they required to use the RRS (the whole process of a hearing, taking testimony, finding facts, rules applicable, the potential of an appeal, etc.)?  Why would they not also make a decision on the protest time limit being too late?

Listen, we all struggle between what the rules require of people to do, AND getting to a righteous decision.  We all know that many incidents do not get hearings and many people get awards they were never entitled to.  Should the boat owner RAF if the allegation is true?  Absolutely.  Does he/she have to? Absolutely Not.  Where is the onus on the people making the allegation?  The onus is to sit down, fill out a protest form, and file it within the time limit. If the protester make s a mistake, they can withdraw the protest.  The protester can skip the hearing to their detriment.  What I am pointing out is, the sport is built around a proven process.  While morally it hurts to give trophies to undeserving, I also stand up for the process and protect it vehemently.

 

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

YRALIS PHRF Regulations State:
"If the PHRF Committee is notified or discovers that an owner is not in compliance with the above, the Committee may file a protest with the YRA of LIS Executive Committee.  This protest will be heard by a properly constituted panel of three Judges.  The panel of Judges may recommend to the PHRF Committee the revocation of the certificate in question.  The revocation may be made retroactively. The panel may also suspend the owner's privilege to participate in any YRA of LIS event for a prescribed period of time."

At first blush:
1. There are a lot of "mays" in there.  No one is required to do anything.
2. I'd sure have to sit down with the rule book to make sense of this process. Obviously someone saw this during the event and even took a picture. Why did they fail to file within the protest time limit, and why should anyone keep looking for ways around the protest time limit?  I mean, this "properly constituted panel" of YRALIS PHRF, are they required to use the RRS (the whole process of a hearing, taking testimony, finding facts, rules applicable, the potential of an appeal, etc.)?  Why would they not also make a decision on the protest time limit being too late?

Listen, we all struggle between what the rules require of people to do, AND getting to a righteous decision.  We all know that many incidents do not get hearings and many people get awards they were never entitled to.  Should the boat owner RAF if the allegation is true?  Absolutely.  Does he/she have to? Absolutely Not.  Where is the onus on the people making the allegation?  The onus is to sit down, fill out a protest form, and file it within the time limit. If the protester make s a mistake, they can withdraw the protest.  The protester can skip the hearing to their detriment.  What I am pointing out is, the sport is built around a proven process.  While morally it hurts to give trophies to undeserving, I also stand up for the process and protect it vehemently.

 

"Should the boat owner RAF if the allegation is true?  Absolutely.  Does he/she have to? Absolutely Not."

So how does that gel with the whole self-policing thing?

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And y’all wonder why participation is down?

 

“if in winning you have lost the respect of your fellow competitiors you have in fact won nothing.”

 

Granted theres a process and that process will be gamed by some, it’s up to the class to decide how it wants to deal with those that game said process. 

Its a sad time when known cheating wins trophies, even more sad when the class/fleet lets it happen. No one has clean hands in this situation. 

 

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47 minutes ago, BlondeWithFreeBoat said:

"Should the boat owner RAF if the allegation is true?  Absolutely.  Does he/she have to? Absolutely Not."

So how does that gel with the whole self-policing thing?

Well, we've all seen it before and we move onto the next event. HOWEVER, none of us forget. If what is alleged (whose specific facts are unknown to us commoners) attempts to repeat this in their next event, there will be people taking numbers in a waiting line to file protests against this boat.  And the competitors will do the policing.

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My $.02: a PHRF rating committee only determines the rating and issues the certificate which states the parameters under which that rating is valid.

If a competitor sails in an event out of configuration to the certificate presented to the Organizing Authority for that event one of the other competitors may protest the violation and that competitor may be penalized or disqualified thereby.

The PHRF committee is not a participant in the event and has no standing to protest a competitor in any event but they do advise a protest committee as to whether or not a boat sailed in violation of its certificate at that event.

I really wish that everybody could serve a year or two as Fleet Chair for their local PHRF committee. It would open their eyes to the difference between honest mistakes, misconceptions, attempts at stretching the rules and blatant cheating.

The real eye-opener would occur  when they realize they have become the person they complained about.

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31 minutes ago, CrushDigital said:

Especially around Can One. The piles of bullshit, real and imagined, would be enormous.

we left  a pile on Saturday I think  ;-)

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58 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Just remember that the Sound is where NYC flushes out.

 

NYC also has the Hudson River doing some of the dirty work. 

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The Hudson gets the West side, the harbor gets lower Brooklyn and NJ, the East River and Harlem river get the East side of Manhattan, all of Bronx, and the North half of Brooklyn and Queens. 

I've sailed up the harbor and through Hell Gate to Worlds Fair Marina. 

the floating condoms were notable miles offshore... 

 

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2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

the floating condoms were notable miles offshore... 

Those are City Island Whitefish

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18 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Well, we've all seen it before and we move onto the next event. HOWEVER, none of us forget. If what is alleged (whose specific facts are unknown to us commoners) attempts to repeat this in their next event, there will be people taking numbers in a waiting line to file protests against this boat.  And the competitors will do the policing.

Unfortunately history has shown that is not the case more often than not.  If an Organizing Authority (Club)  wants to sail under the auspices of a Regional Authority,  qualify for their season trophies, abide by their ratings, they can not ignore them or choose to enforce them or change them arbitrarily. If they do not want to abide by them, they can do whatever they like and give out trophies to any cheater, axe murderer, Matt Lauer,, who gives a shit?  But they cannot  say in their NOR that YRALIS regulations and trophies apply.  Its anarchy!  The  RA (PHRF Comm) can't do anything except revoke certificates or disqualify races from their season trophies for non complying boats or regattas. That is their leverage. They do not want to do that either.    

OA's don't want to enforce rules. They don't want to go out after the party and retrieve trophies handed out incorrectly. Admit mistakes and crappy NORs and SIs.  Competitors don't want to protest fellow club members, sail sellers dont want to protest sail buyers,etc.   

All of the protocol and mechanisms are already in place for the PHRF Comm to right wrongs. In fact they dont even have to do it, they can pass it up to a Technical Committee or an Independent Jury made up of International US Sailing Judges and be hands off.  It is  in the damn rules now. But many have not been willing, or dont even want to be that closely associated with 'enforcement'  and compliance.  You cannot expect to have  yachting service providers (sailmakers, marina operators, brokers, etc) as committee members enforcing or punishing customers or potential customers.  But is their expertise invaluable?  Of course.    But you also need PHRF Comm Members who are reviewing fellow club members or class competitors ratings to recuse themselves from the discussion occasionally. They can advocate their case , but step away when its time to vote. This is all simple optics and normal best practices. But it has not  been happening.  As far as competitors go as a completely unrelated example Im just instantaneously fabricating and bears no relation to any person living or dead... If your PHRF  certificate says you have a 50lb.added custom made transom door on your boat when you are racing,  a notation you specifically added, you are expected to have a fucking 50lb custom transom door on your boat  when you are racing. Or report that you have removed it. It's specifically addressed in the PHRF Regulations.  Whether its noted you were awarded 3 points for it, or zero points, is irrelevant. If you dont correct it, the PHRf Comm refuses to to correct it, and a competitor or RC dosnt protest it, do we just say it never happened and hand out trophies?  Business as usual for the last 25 ( or 100 ) years?  Apparently so.    Or do we impartially adjudicate it and maintain some integrity in the system?   A premier racing organization and a premier JBoats class couldn't peacefully figure out how to interpret the PHRF roller furler credit regulation until someone doing the right thing  protested it and it almost led to a riot. Its still fucked up.   Audits of scratch sheet ratings versus phrf certificates at several major regattas this year  showed about a 15-20 percent error rate. Just because someone enters a number on Yachtscoring, it dosnt mean its true or complies to the NOR for that regatta. And in some cases it was pointed out and STILL never corrected. Just because a boat didnt make the podium, it still can affect season series results. 

 RRS established Technical Committees last year but they haven't been used or understood.  Hopefully education and marketing of that this spring will lead to smoother operations in 2018.  There is plenty of blame to go around. There was alot of talk about 1 or 2 boats,  but there was also zero protests lodged by anyone.  If the OA said the time limit has passed,  because the party tent is already down, thats not true. New facts were found. Take it up with USS if you feel strongly about it.

Anyway, as Peter Clemenza said "These things gotta happen every 5 years or so, 10 years,.helps to get rid of the bad blood."

    

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2 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Unfortunately history has shown that is not the case more often than not.  If an Organizing Authority (Club)  wants to sail under the auspices of a Regional Authority,  qualify for their season trophies, abide by their ratings, they can not ignore them or choose to enforce them or change them arbitrarily. If they do not want to abide by them, they can do whatever they like and give out trophies to any cheater, axe murderer, Matt Lauer,, who gives a shit?  But they cannot  say in their NOR that YRALIS regulations and trophies apply.  Its anarchy!  The  RA (PHRF Comm) can't do anything except revoke certificates or disqualify races from their season trophies for non complying boats or regattas. That is their leverage. They do not want to do that either.    

OA's don't want to enforce rules. They don't want to go out after the party and retrieve trophies handed out incorrectly. Admit mistakes and crappy NORs and SIs.  Competitors don't want to protest fellow club members, sail sellers dont want to protest sail buyers,etc.   

All of the protocol and mechanisms are already in place for the PHRF Comm to right wrongs. In fact they dont even have to do it, they can pass it up to a Technical Committee or an Independent Jury made up of International US Sailing Judges and be hands off.  It is  in the damn rules now. But many have not been willing, or dont even want to be that closely associated with 'enforcement'  and compliance.  You cannot expect to have  yachting service providers (sailmakers, marina operators, brokers, etc) as committee members enforcing or punishing customers or potential customers.  But is their expertise invaluable?  Of course.    But you also need PHRF Comm Members who are reviewing fellow club members or class competitors ratings to recuse themselves from the discussion occasionally. They can advocate their case , but step away when its time to vote. This is all simple optics and normal best practices. But it has not  been happening.  As far as competitors go as a completely unrelated example Im just instantaneously fabricating and bears no relation to any person living or dead... If your PHRF  certificate says you have a 50lb.added custom made transom door on your boat when you are racing,  a notation you specifically added, you are expected to have a fucking 50lb custom transom door on your boat  when you are racing. Or report that you have removed it. It's specifically addressed in the PHRF Regulations.  Whether its noted you were awarded 3 points for it, or zero points, is irrelevant. If you dont correct it, the PHRf Comm refuses to to correct it, and a competitor or RC dosnt protest it, do we just say it never happened and hand out trophies?  Business as usual for the last 25 ( or 100 ) years?  Apparently so.    Or do we impartially adjudicate it and maintain some integrity in the system?   A premier racing organization and a premier JBoats class couldn't peacefully figure out how to interpret the PHRF roller furler credit regulation until someone doing the right thing  protested it and it almost led to a riot. Its still fucked up.   Audits of scratch sheet ratings versus phrf certificates at several major regattas this year  showed about a 15-20 percent error rate. Just because someone enters a number on Yachtscoring, it dosnt mean its true or complies to the NOR for that regatta. And in some cases it was pointed out and STILL never corrected. Just because a boat didnt make the podium, it still can affect season series results. 

 RRS established Technical Committees last year but they haven't been used or understood.  Hopefully education and marketing of that this spring will lead to smoother operations in 2018.  There is plenty of blame to go around. There was alot of talk about 1 or 2 boats,  but there was also zero protests lodged by anyone.  If the OA said the time limit has passed,  because the party tent is already down, thats not true. New facts were found. Take it up with USS if you feel strongly about it.

Anyway, as Peter Clemenza said "These things gotta happen every 5 years or so, 10 years,.helps to get rid of the bad blood."

    

Nice rant.

What I look at is a process.  A place where there is a hearing, a place where two sides can plead their case with due process.  If people won't do this, then you are right, it is anarchy.

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12 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Nice rant.

What I look at is a process.  A place where there is a hearing, a place where two sides can plead their case with due process.  If people won't do this, then you are right, it is anarchy.

The big block of text you absolutely rudely hand-waved away as a rant exactly described the process that's in place and it features all the things you look for (what a relief).  No one's issue has been with process, it's been with the lack of motivation / political will to act when called upon.

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5 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

The big block of text you absolutely rudely hand-waved away as a rant exactly described the process that's in place and it features all the things you look for (what a relief).  No one's issue has been with process, it's been with the lack of motivation / political will to act when called upon.

Hardly, it is more of that "Congress should be out policing the streets."  Uh, no.  It is up to the individual who enters an event to be in compliance, and if they don't it is up to their fellow competitors to protest them.  We are the police, not the rule makers, not the organizing authorities.  This is more of today's society blaming everyone else, rather than taking personal responsibility.

Let me take this many steps forward. Those people who volunteer their time to establish race committees, handicap or rating committees, protest committee, entertainment committee, etc. all are there to build your fun.  They go to training seminars, they make sure there are plenty of shotgun shells, flags, marks, fuel, etc. so that racing goes off with a minimal of hitches.  And just what are they getting out of this?  Now you want them to become the enemy (they will) by making them responsible for inspecting boats to assure that each boat is in compliance with all of the various rules?  I've got news for you, every last one of them will quit.

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Competitors should have protested on the water and even if not, a boat that is maliciously violating their rating(I am sure there are instances of negligence) should have their cert pulled at least temporarily and be ineligible for season long trophies.

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1 hour ago, Sent191 said:

Competitors should have protested on the water and even if not, a boat that is maliciously violating their rating(I am sure there are instances of negligence) should have their cert pulled at least temporarily and be ineligible for season long trophies.

I licke that idear, I mevere beene keene on expo'se concreette galloshises as deterrentte.                                   :)

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2 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Hardly, it is more of that "Congress should be out policing the streets."  Uh, no.  It is up to the individual who enters an event to be in compliance, and if they don't it is up to their fellow competitors to protest them.  We are the police, not the rule makers, not the organizing authorities.  This is more of today's society blaming everyone else, rather than taking personal responsibility.

Let me take this many steps forward. Those people who volunteer their time to establish race committees, handicap or rating committees, protest committee, entertainment committee, etc. all are there to build your fun.  They go to training seminars, they make sure there are plenty of shotgun shells, flags, marks, fuel, etc. so that racing goes off with a minimal of hitches.  And just what are they getting out of this?  Now you want them to become the enemy (they will) by making them responsible for inspecting boats to assure that each boat is in compliance with all of the various rules?  I've got news for you, every last one of them will quit.

Glenn McCarthy = The Girl With Kaleidoscope Eyes 

Take it easy Lucy. Nobody is quitting the Entertainment Committee over crew weight and roller furler infractions

If the fellow competitor thing worked well enough, there wouldn't be a need for on-the-water umpires  in this sport.

Fact is the level of Corinthian 'Self Policing' isnt what it used to be in sailing,  business, or Matt Lauer's office.

If you want a sport where everyone gets a trophy, go join a 4th grade soccer league

And most of them get free drinks, shrimp platters on big races, and maybe a cool shirt. Nobody's giving that up 

 

 

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19 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

Glenn McCarthy = The Girl With Kaleidoscope Eyes 

Take it easy Lucy. Nobody is quitting the Entertainment Committee over crew weight and roller furler infractions

If the fellow competitor thing worked well enough, there wouldn't be a need for on-the-water umpires  in this sport.

Fact is the level of Corinthian 'Self Policing' isnt what it used to be in sailing,  business, or Matt Lauer's office.

If you want a sport where everyone gets a trophy, go join a 4th grade soccer league

And most of them get free drinks, shrimp platters on big races, and maybe a cool shirt. Nobody's giving that up 

 

 

I've served on a PHRF review board for several years.  No free drinks, shrimp platters or cool shirts. I have been called names a few times, though. Does that count?.

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There is a good reason that so many people race PHRF.

 

For the life of me , I can't think of what it is......but it better be a damn good one to put up with all this BS.

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 6:34 PM, Brass said:

 

Mr. Brass,

When this sort of nonsense effected a race a couple of years back I extensively researched applicable rules. This would have been the RRS in effect in 2013-2016 and that was what I was referencing. I have recently reviewed the current iteration and yes some of that applicable language was changed with the introduction of "Technical Committee" language. IMHO that does not actually address the situation and here is why.

In this year's current drama, a prominent sailor and industry professional, who now formally served on the WLISYRA PHRF Committee brought the situation to the OA's attention, The YRALIS PHRF Committee's attention and ultimately The YRALIS Board's attention. Here is the problem, when dealing with certificate issues folks generally do not tend to have instant access to PHRF Certs and as has been the case here and previously, the window shut and no one saw fit to pry it back open.

Now I have not attended a great many protest hearings on either side of the table, a few, one or two very memorable ones, but the boats I tend to sail on try and sail clean and try to avoid the quagmire that is "The Room". From those limited experiences I can make this comment, I have never met a protest committee nor judge nor senior judge that did not try and dispatch or dispose of a protest for any technical reasons that may be applicable.....even when the evidence of cheating is overwhelming.

I find this most sad and have sat on my hands at awards ceremonies as the only course of action left available and watch outright dirtbags walk away with other people's pickle dishes. It is sad and it is killing the sport of sailing.

Regards,

BdB

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On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 2:04 PM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Hardly, it is more of that "Congress should be out policing the streets."  Uh, no.  It is up to the individual who enters an event to be in compliance, and if they don't it is up to their fellow competitors to protest them.  We are the police, not the rule makers, not the organizing authorities.  This is more of today's society blaming everyone else, rather than taking personal responsibility.

Let me take this many steps forward. Those people who volunteer their time to establish race committees, handicap or rating committees, protest committee, entertainment committee, etc. all are there to build your fun.  They go to training seminars, they make sure there are plenty of shotgun shells, flags, marks, fuel, etc. so that racing goes off with a minimal of hitches.  And just what are they getting out of this?  Now you want them to become the enemy (they will) by making them responsible for inspecting boats to assure that each boat is in compliance with all of the various rules?  I've got news for you, every last one of them will quit.

Mr. McCarthy,

I do in principle agree that PHRF Committee members need not serve as PHRF Cops. However, when some egregious violations happen and the door closes for a formal protest, for whatever the reason, but particularly certificate issues there must be action taken by the issuing authority or their certificates are meaningless. Rank and file sailors need to know that their elected representatives share their disappointments in the direction of our sport. That those representatives are willing to stand and be heard and make it known that flagrant violations of our rules, certificates, good sportsmanship and Corinthian values still have meaning and hold sway. BTBOTFA (YRALIS Prez screen name) is to be lauded for addressing this head on. He is showing he has our backs as when have shown him the same. DRAIN THE SOUND!

As for citing YRALIS PHRF Regulations. They are most poorly written, have been cobbled together over decades with no real thread of continuity. As such the regs you quote are, or will in very short order be obsolete. There is a special committee that has been assembled by the current YRALIS Commodore charged with the task of a complete rewrite of those regs. Not 100% sure if they are complete but I suspect that the old regs will be permanently retired in about 24 hours time when the YRALIS convenes their annual meeting. Long time coming and a number of us have been asked for input into that process. So please do not think the people in here replying to you, folks you dismiss and accuse of bench warming ranters and malcontents is wholly accurate. There are about half a dozen or more folks replying to this thread that have been actively involved in YRALIS over a good long run which are sharing their take hear. I can tell you this, the things you are spouting hear sound eerily similar to sentiments expressed by those on our own PHRF committee who are now.... "retired".

Regards,

BdB

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 12:09 PM, LionessRacing said:

Just remember that the Sound is where NYC flushes out.

 

That is a bit, how shall we say, lacking in understanding the dynamics that are Long Island Sound and adjacent estuaries.

For your edification sir..... or at least pretty neat.

http://hudson.dl.stevens-tech.edu/maritimeforecast/

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On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 9:59 PM, Parma said:

My $.02: a PHRF rating committee only determines the rating and issues the certificate which states the parameters under which that rating is valid.

If a competitor sails in an event out of configuration to the certificate presented to the Organizing Authority for that event one of the other competitors may protest the violation and that competitor may be penalized or disqualified thereby.

The PHRF committee is not a participant in the event and has no standing to protest a competitor in any event but they do advise a protest committee as to whether or not a boat sailed in violation of its certificate at that event.

I really wish that everybody could serve a year or two as Fleet Chair for their local PHRF committee. It would open their eyes to the difference between honest mistakes, misconceptions, attempts at stretching the rules and blatant cheating.

The real eye-opener would occur  when they realize they have become the person they complained about.

You sir are spot on of course. I get asked with more regularity than I am comfortable with, to comment on folks cheating. My boilerplate response is this, "Everybody makes mistakes, those aren't always intentional. However, when a mistake they have made is brought to their attention and they elect to do nothing to fix their error(s), that is the moment it becomes cheating." That is the case that has cause this all to come to a head. It is not an isolate incident. Not for this boat and not for a couple of boats in our area that have been cited for transgressions while racing.

As Tony pointed out, this has actually been going on for years to one degree or another. No one wants to pull the trigger and no one wants to play the heavy. Whether it is out of ignorance or to protect business interests, soothe club politics or a guarded position taken by some of our very prominent member clubs to not see their marquee events tarnished. Whatever the reasoning, but at some point someone or a group of people, good people, need to stand up and say enough is enough.

Regards,

BdB

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

I find this most sad and have sat on my hands at awards ceremonies as the only course of action left available and watch outright dirtbags walk away with other people's pickle dishes. It is sad and it is killing the sport of sailing.

Regards,

BdB

Thast Rediculousse!                      :)

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

There are about half a dozen or more folks replying to this thread that have been actively involved in YRALIS over a good long run which are sharing their take hear. I can tell you this, the things you are spouting hear sound eerily similar to sentiments expressed by those on our own PHRF committee who are now.... "retired".

Regards,

BdB

Thackes buddeyy, appreciatte het updattes, so....you our sayeng dinosaurres speeke englishe?                                      :)

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50 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

No one wants to pull the trigger and no one wants to play the heavy.

On thisse you our wrongue, you gifte me the shotte, ille staitten annybodey that needes staittening.......                :)

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On 12/2/2017 at 6:04 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Hardly, it is more of that "Congress should be out policing the streets."  Uh, no.  It is up to the individual who enters an event to be in compliance, and if they don't it is up to their fellow competitors to protest them.  We are the police, not the rule makers, not the organizing authorities.  This is more of today's society blaming everyone else, rather than taking personal responsibility.

Let me take this many steps forward. Those people who volunteer their time to establish race committees, handicap or rating committees, protest committee, entertainment committee, etc. all are there to build your fun.  They go to training seminars, they make sure there are plenty of shotgun shells, flags, marks, fuel, etc. so that racing goes off with a minimal of hitches.  And just what are they getting out of this?  Now you want them to become the enemy (they will) by making them responsible for inspecting boats to assure that each boat is in compliance with all of the various rules?  I've got news for you, every last one of them will quit.

Maybe you need to add a paragraph to your N.O.R. similar to what Y.A. have done for the Australian titles to be held in January. I think you will find the same paragraph in other Australian N.O.R.'s 

6.6 Boats and their equipment may be inspected and/or check measured up to 24 hours prior to the start of the first race and in accordance with Rule 61.3 (Protest Time Limit) after the finish of the last race of the regatta at the discretion of the Race Committee.

You should be able to bring up concerns about another boats' "discrepancy", with the race committee, before having to submit a protest.

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On 12/1/2017 at 6:23 AM, Squalamax said:

Wow, no comments from Espo? Someone finally get a muzzle on him? 

It’s Christmastime which means Espo is busy stringing up the lights, carefully placing reindeer on his roof and meticulously arranging his Santa and Mrs Claus doll collection.

 

 

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15 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

That is a bit, how shall we say, lacking in understanding the dynamics that are Long Island Sound and adjacent estuaries.

For your edification sir..... or at least pretty neat.

http://hudson.dl.stevens-tech.edu/maritimeforecast/

Hydrology, politics and culture are different, and yet curiously similar at times. The level of effluvium is high in all cases in the region. 

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I wonder what  this years trophies will look like today? I heard all the first place ones are brass plaques mounted on 50# transom doors from sportfishers salvaged from Irma and Maria wrecks. Poor Andrea has to drag them in from the parking lot.

 

 

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People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

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3 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along...

roger2.png

RR?

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5 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

Just joined 6 hours ago to make this one post about what you "overheard" at Larchmont, hm? Don't suppose you sail on Gemini.....

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7 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

And there is always the possibility that you are wrong.  You must be  a sock for Gemini navigator Four Points who disappeared and deleted his posts from the Vineyard thread calling Hiro Maru  a cheater. .  The photo showed the boat very, very likely overweight even with the added body.  Then removal of the transom  door must be reported credit or not.  Jesus this is tedious. Read the regulations.  Half a dozen committee members resigned because this guy wanted to play sea lawyer and put them in an unnecessary and uncomfortable position they didn't need to be in   Congratulate him for that and hope he enjoys his pickle dish over it 

Why don't you congratulate Hound Dog who last night asked not to receive a legitimately earned trophy and have one of his competitors awarded it over a math anomaly that gave him the trophy.  

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/29/2017 at 8:02 PM, USA190520 said:

And y’all wonder why participation is down?

 

“if in winning you have lost the respect of your fellow competitiors you have in fact won nothing.”

 

Granted theres a process and that process will be gamed by some, it’s up to the class to decide how it wants to deal with those that game said process. 

Its a sad time when known cheating wins trophies, even more sad when the class/fleet lets it happen. No one has clean hands in this situation. 

 

+1. It’s no wonder 95% of boat owners don’t race, why would they want to spend their disposable income and leisure time with that nonsense? IME the blue blazers in charge will never “get it” - they’ll just do surveys and put lipstick on the pig, point to short term “successes” and then wonder why the pastime continues to decline long term...

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9 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

The fact you have to hide behind a screen name to apologize speaks volumes about your ethics and integrity.

So the owner and crew is supposed to feel good because an anonymous sock comes on and congratulates them?

I might be able to guess who you are, but I'm sure others have ways to prove it.

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9 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

Setting aside the fact that you're a prick, it's fascinating that you managed to just randomly overhear this incredibly long detailed conversation about how Gemini is the best most entirely on the up and up boat in existence. 

Was this a number of conversations you overheard throughout the course of the night or were you creeping over one person's shoulder for fifteen minutes while they expounded on how unfair everyone's been about the Sound's favorite Hanse?

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11 hours ago, So-ck8805 said:

People should really keep their voices down when discussing things in public,  I overheard some interesting tidbits tonight at Larchmont :ph34r:.  I suspect dopo and BdB may already know most or all of this, but it was news to me, and I'm guessing most others as well.  From what I gathered it seems the PHRF board did discuss and review the photo evidence and other complaints made in depth, but once they did it was concluded that no improper, rule breaking, or uncorinthian actions were found.  They dropped the weight complaint upon the recommendation of ?RR? who argued in the skippers favor agreeing that the NOR and SI were written in such a way that they did not actually violate the rule, despite the NOR and SI no being meant to allow the extra weight, it did.  The complaint about sailing out of compliance with the PHRF certificate was additionally dropped because the certificate was never modified and no credit was given for the addition of the door, thus as it was not part of the base rating of the boat, it was therefore not required to be installed when racing.    

All along I/we've been thinking that the board was 'given the option to resign' because they allowed this blatant rule breaking to go on, but I wonder if that may not be the case ,and if so there either may be more to the story than originally thought, or at least the reasoning is very different than originally thought. 

Whatever the true reason for the PHRF board purge, I now offer the skipper and crew an honest congratulations on winning, since I may have been wrong about them all along... 

 

Since you are insinuating I know something, I thought I should respond.   I received an email and I attached it to a thread it was pertinent to.  Really don't know much of any story.

 

 

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Another factor. 

YRALIS season trophies are awarded  and defined basis the results of OAs  qualfying regattas.   For instance the Vineyard Race (and others).  The YRALIS cannot negate regatta results.  If they tried a litigious competitor could say wtf are you talking about?  SYC (and others) verify  I have a proper standing result  in this race and others. I qualify.  Who are you to say I don't?   He could have 20 people and Matt Lauer as crew.   If SYC says he's good, and the competitors say he's good (and they have by the lack of any protests), the YRALIS hands are tied.  Another example of some fine tuning required.

SYC intention which everyone except one guy understood and agreed,  was their NOR applied to IRC crew numbers and  not PHRF, of which there are none.

As long as there are rules there will be people looking for loopholes despite clear intentions. Intent doesn't matter to some folks.  That's why all rules should be abolished.   The weight limit rule is the first to go.     

 

 

 

 

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On 12/1/2017 at 6:23 AM, Squalamax said:

Wow, no comments from Espo? Someone finally get a muzzle on him? 

I too busy trying to get a ride on one of the VOR boats across the southern ocean, to reply to this thread.

 

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29 minutes ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

As long as there are rules there will be people looking for loopholes despite clear intentions. Intent doesn't matter to some folks.  That's why all rules should be abolished.   The weight limit rule is the first to go.

Golf and tennis have rules, and players may cheat a little here and there, but nothing like sail racing where cheating becomes institutionalized at the local level so they don't have to call it cheating. You would think local (sail race) committees would help with that, but they seem to make it worse - probably thanks to a few overzealous competitors. If you play golf or tennis, you don't get to bend the rules any near like sailing...and there's no local committee to help you cheat.

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I don't know MidPack, my brother and I have had some pretty vicious arguments regarding whether shots are in or out and where exactly the baseline is while playing tennis.

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46 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Golf and tennis have rules, and players may cheat a little here and there, but nothing like sail racing where cheating becomes institutionalized at the local level so they don't have to call it cheating. You would think local (sail race) committees would help with that, but they seem to make it worse - probably thanks to a few overzealous competitors. If you play golf or tennis, you don't get to bend the rules any near like sailing...and there's no local committee to help you cheat.

Oh, and there are people out there cheating and then bullshitting their local PHRF comm, but in their minds it's legit. 

 

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Yes

We had an issue where our Clubs PHRF rep saw some people carrying doors and tables down the dock. He mentioned to them that they can't race that way, and they acted like he was being completely unreasonable.

 

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1 hour ago, pete_nj said:

Yes

We had an issue where our Clubs PHRF rep saw some people carrying doors and tables down the dock. He mentioned to them that they can't race that way, and they acted like he was being completely unreasonable.

 

In some areas, like LIS,  that's perfectly legal. Doors, tables, are specifically mentioned and  exempt in the regs and can be taken off for racing.  

Edited by TonyFromSheepsheadBay

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5 hours ago, jesposito said:
On 12/1/2017 at 6:23 AM, Squalamax said:

Wow, no comments from Espo? Someone finally get a muzzle on him? 

I too busy trying to get a ride on one of the VOR boats across the southern ocean, to reply to this thread.

Our thay doeng that cycalliste thinge theire to?                                       :)

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2 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

In some areas, like LIS,  that's perfectly legal. Doors, tables, are specifically mentioned and  exempt in the regs and can be taken off for racing.  

So, the club PRHF guyes a doppe?                            :)

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2 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

In some areas, like LIS,  that's perfectly legal. Doors, tables, are specifically mentioned and  exempt in the regs and can be taken off for racing.  

Same here, and even if not all you have to do to remain above suspicion is report that you've removed those items

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17 minutes ago, Parma said:

Same here, and even if not all you have to do to remain above suspicion is report that you've removed those items

You mean like a 50lb transom door you specifically added a few years earlier?  

So-ck8895 has gone quiet   Funny  

 

 

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