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danstanford

Sail: how much is shape and how much is material?

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Looking to buy a new jib for club racing and struggling to understand this question. I get the fact that the shape is a huge problem when the sail is stretched, and I get that most of the high tech fabrics are less likely to stretch, but if not stretched, are they all pretty much the same in terms of speed? 

Sorry for the run-on sentence! 

Dan

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shape should be pretty much the same. the more expensive material will be lighter and yes less stretch (but you need to make sure the halyard, sheet, etc are also made kf the fancy/no stretch stuff to get the full benefit)  Dacron will lose its shape eventually due to stretch, but the fancy stuff will break down too (maybe faster due to wear and tear like lots of tacks)  the bigger the sail the more pronounced the effect.  what type of boat are we talking about?

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I have heard people complain on how hard it is to sail with some sail.  Narrow groove.  Some sail shapes are more forgiving of how you sail.  When I first got new sails many years ago, I had a few accidental tacks.  Now that doesn't happen.  So I think there is more to it than just shape and cloth.  There is also the driver and the sea conditions.

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Simple, you can never make a fast sail out of shit cloth ever.

You can however make a slow sail out of good cloth.

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You don’t say what you are club racing, let’s assume 30’ PHRF. 

Ontario generally lighter breezes in evenings and sundays at Sodus Bay forty years back. 

Assume a 155% Genoa, I=40, J=12 would set you back $3k US and up.  

If you budget double the minimum price, go to a loft that makes racing sails, has a local rep who sails in your area, services the sails and is well regarded, ask them what they recommend for your boat, water, crew/helm style. 

 

I sail a heavy displacement wide shroud base yawl on SFBay. My choice is a “Vektran” from Hood, as they equip many of the B-40s and know the boat. My local rep knows my style, (I pinch) 

 

 

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3 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I sail a heavy displacement wide shroud base yawl on SFBay. My choice is a “Vektran” from Hood, as they equip many of the B-40s and know the boat. My local rep knows my style, (I pinch)

well - yeh.  It'll only go hull speed. Once there,  you should pinch.

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Really.....  is some poor smack really asking this question ???   the benefit of a combined 1000+ years of this thread and sailing by the seat of your pants, is quickly diminished.....  spend your hard earned on a Porsche !    .....

 

oh.... and I expect you have heard the joke.... what's the difference between a Porsche and hedgehog ?   A Porsche has pricks on the inside !!

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11 hours ago, danstanford said:

Looking to buy a new jib for club racing and struggling to understand this question. I get the fact that the shape is a huge problem when the sail is stretched, and I get that most of the high tech fabrics are less likely to stretch, but if not stretched, are they all pretty much the same in terms of speed? 

Sorry for the run-on sentence! 

Dan

Yes, they are all pretty much the same in terms of speed.

One thing to consider is that the more "bulletproof" fabrics tend to be stiffer and can be harder to trim for very low wind speeds: for higher wind speeds you simply tighten things up (halyard, sheets, hauler) but when you're in that lower range it's harder to loosen things up. Can't push on a string.

Any decent sailmaker will build the sail for your most prevalent local wind speed, but.......

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B323 is the boat, 116% jib is what I want. Light airs are prevalent, and I am one to sail in heavier breezes, but I am pretty good to my sails. Club racing is the reason to do this as I can achieve hull speed with the 10 year old dacron sails but I am suffering when competing in our club races. I know my tactics are the principle reason for our performance and I am working concurrently to fix them but I want faster sails too.

I learned with hank on sails and loved the roachy main on my last two boats but now I have a wife who loves to sail and furlers make that happen easily. Sounds to me like the consensus above is to buy some better sails if I want to be faster longer term.

Dan  

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Modern sails (thinking North 3di here) are essentially molded in shape, so even in very light air, the sail holds a nice wing shape and generates lift from every breath. This has won us some races when the wind shuts off. So in that case cloth vs. shape is a moot point. The shape is important, but good cloth lets the sail keep that shape when there isn't enough air to support it.

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1 hour ago, ajbram said:

Modern sails (thinking North 3di here) are essentially molded in shape, so even in very light air, the sail holds a nice wing shape and generates lift from every breath. This has won us some races when the wind shuts off. So in that case cloth vs. shape is a moot point. The shape is important, but good cloth lets the sail keep that shape when there isn't enough air to support it.

I have heard that too but it just seems I can't get the shape I think I must want in super light. Must be the result of years of habitually adjusting dacron for wind speed. Or I just don't understand the sail shape as well as I think I do.........no, couldn't be that......?

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Someone explained it to me this way.  No matter what the cloth, the sail will be great when new.  A fancy laminate cloth will hold its shape until it comes apart, which might be only 5 years.  A Dacron sail will slowly lose its shape but will still be a sail in 20 years, but not a very good one in 5.

I think there is a little more to it than that.  The stretch of Dacron means that they need to do things with the shape to give it strength.  Leach hollow is more on a cloth sail for example.  Also, I think a laminate cloth can make for a flatter sail because some of the fullness in a sail is there so the sail holds its shape.

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I'm afraid to post lest Espo calls me clueless again. :(   Oh, and John I was a sail maker for eight years and made my own sails with which I made 9th in a World championship against 140 other competitors from around the World, but I forget.                  I'm supposed to be clueless.  

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The 3Di quote includes 3 short vertical battens which I have never had in a jib before.

Quote is 1/3 higher for a raw 3Di black 760 fabric over 3Di Nordac.

 

Thoughts on either or both above?

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Here's the bumper-sticker version :

Performance comes from shape

Material (and how it is used) defines shape longevity and modifiability

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1 hour ago, JoeO said:

Here's the bumper-sticker version :

Performance comes from shape

Material (and how it is used) defines shape longevity and modifiability

Joe,

In the world of jibs, how much does the shape vary from big name sail builder to another? For example, I am comparing Neil Pryde dacron to North 3Di.

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24 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Joe,

In the world of jibs, how much does the shape vary from big name sail builder to another? For example, I am comparing Neil Pryde dacron to North 3Di.

Both can make excellent sails.

Dacron will not hold it's shape across the wind range as well as the 3Di.

Dacron will last longer as a usable sail as Allene222 notes above, degrading slowly with use. 

If your purpose is to get the best sail, for the most use then that's probably the 3Di. 

 

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2 hours ago, danstanford said:

The 3Di quote includes 3 short vertical battens which I have never had in a jib before.

Quote is 1/3 higher for a raw 3Di black 760 fabric over 3Di Nordac.

 

Thoughts on either or both above?

I have that sort of sail sans battens but less than a year old so I can't tell you about longevity yet.

Get the gray with blue draft stripes - it's much easier on the eyes

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40 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Joe,

In the world of jibs, how much does the shape vary from big name sail builder to another? For example, I am comparing Neil Pryde dacron to North 3Di.

I had an dacron RF 135 NP with vertical foam battens. It lasted a good long time but ultimately the leech delaminated and the shape blew out which meant that I was pitched over hard on my ear whenever the wind came up. Because of that I decided I wanted to go with something that would be much flatter and hold my desired sail shape which ultimately took me to the North 3 DI.

Have you seen this video? how North make 3 DI

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46 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Joe,

In the world of jibs, how much does the shape vary from big name sail builder to another? For example, I am comparing Neil Pryde dacron to North 3Di.

The shape will depend upon the design of the sail - and not just designing the flying shape (luff curve, residual broadseaming, leech hollow, etc.) but also how the sailmaker uses material to make sure the shape is achieved in practice. You can design on computer a good shape, but if you then make the sail out of 0.5oz ripstop nylon, it will distort in anything over 3kts into an unusable sail. On top of that, assuming the designed shape is actually realized when the sail is made by judicious choice and use of material. the flying shape may still not replicate the designed shape if the rig setup does not match the assumptions used by the sailmaker (rake, headstay sag, mast bend, tack offsets, etc.).

 

So... it generally pays to get a sail made from a reputable sailmaker who is familiar with your boat... it's performance parameters (so he knows appropriate draft depths an positions, twist, sail ranges, mterial weights, etc.) and also rig setup.

 

In your case above, assuming both sailmakers have designed the appropriate shape and the sails replicate that shape when hoisted/trimmer, then the 3Di sail will in general hold that shape over a wider range of windspeed, and assuming it is made out of lighter cloth weight (almost assuredly the case), it will also present less heeling moment, be easier to handle, etc.

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6 hours ago, danstanford said:

B323 is the boat, 116% jib is what I want. Light airs are prevalent, and I am one to sail in heavier breezes, but I am pretty good to my sails. Club racing is the reason to do this as I can achieve hull speed with the 10 year old dacron sails but I am suffering when competing in our club races. I know my tactics are the principle reason for our performance and I am working concurrently to fix them but I want faster sails too.

I learned with hank on sails and loved the roachy main on my last two boats but now I have a wife who loves to sail and furlers make that happen easily. Sounds to me like the consensus above is to buy some better sails if I want to be faster longer term.

Dan  

Hi Dan, don't want to hijack your thread but if light airs are prevalent I'm just wondering why a 116% on the 323? I think most folks would say  at least 135 as a middle ground to full sail and blade.

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4 minutes ago, Parma said:

Hi Dan, don't want to hijack your thread but if light airs are prevalent I'm just wondering why a 116% on the 323? I think most folks would say  at least 135 as a middle ground to full sail and blade.

Jib is sheeted inside shrouds so this is max size. Good news is that there is less abuse of the sail during tacks!

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Okay, I hear you. My shrouds are pretty far out board too but we use in haulers to simulate a similar inboard sheeting angle. Still only run a 140 because  I think the boat was designed for IRC and more sail plan seems to unbalance the boat and backwind the main more than it is worth. I'll bet you have already measured those sheeting angles as well as your own wallet and come to your best conclusion..

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On 11/28/2017 at 1:39 PM, danstanford said:

The 3Di quote includes 3 short vertical battens which I have never had in a jib before.

Quote is 1/3 higher for a raw 3Di black 760 fabric over 3Di Nordac.

 

Thoughts on either or both above?

i've liked 3di. I have not liked, ever, vertical battens. do you need roller furling? i mean, really need it? vertical battens blow. Are you taking the jib off when you're done racing or will it live furled? 

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On 11/28/2017 at 1:39 PM, danstanford said:

The 3Di quote includes 3 short vertical battens which I have never had in a jib before.

Quote is 1/3 higher for a raw 3Di black 760 fabric over 3Di Nordac.

 

Thoughts on either or both above?

I went with 3di Nordac after years of purchasing laminate sails that only last 3 years at best. My jib is so small that i figured it didn't pay for day sailing and wed night.  

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Depends so much on what you want to do. 3di is pretty awesome for racing, but will not last as long as a cruising sail for sure. 

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37 minutes ago, Gracious said:

Wow, what region gives you such a big credit for a dacron jib?  Our PHRF committee doesn't take sail material into account (which I think is probably the correct approach).

 

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Eastern Long Island they don't give credit for roller furling but will give you a credit for dacron Jib on a furller.

I figured there was no way a laminate sail performs 6 sec better

http://www.phrfeli.org

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I think our PHRF has some sailmakers on it so they just expect you to have new sails and a spinnaker.  No credit for no spinnaker, no credit for different sail materials although class rules can limit choice of materials.

Altogether thing to consider if you want a flat sail.  You may need to go to some high tech cloth as Dacron might not support a flat sail.  My new main will be Flex Ultra, which is kind of mid range cloth. They said 9 degrees camber with racing cloth and 12 with Dacron.  Mine will be half way between. 

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I think, given all you've said, that for a jib with small overlap, I'd go laminate.  Because you can't switch up in lighter air to a larger sail, you need your jib to give you the best shape and speed while minimizing weight.  

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4 hours ago, Harry Pattison said:

Shape is everything. How long the shape lasts is determined by the quality of the material.

I'd listen to Harry.  He knows a bit more than most!

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On 11/28/2017 at 3:39 PM, danstanford said:

Joe,

In the world of jibs, how much does the shape vary from big name sail builder to another? For example, I am comparing Neil Pryde dacron to North 3Di.

Buy local. Call Kris at Quantum Rochester. I PM'ed you contact info

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On 11/28/2017 at 1:58 PM, JoeO said:

Here's the bumper-sticker version :

Performance comes from shape

Material (and how it is used) defines shape longevity and modifiability

This is the answer. 

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Thanks for all the input Everybody, I think I have settled on a 3Di Nordac sail. They are going to measure the boat to get every last square inch out of the jib so I am going to take a chance. I know that I will kick myself if I cheap out now and don't feel I have given myself the best chance of success within the limitations I have set.

Dan

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1 hour ago, danstanford said:

Thanks for all the input Everybody, I think I have settled on a 3Di Nordac sail. They are going to measure the boat to get every last square inch out of the jib so I am going to take a chance. I know that I will kick myself if I cheap out now and don't feel I have given myself the best chance of success within the limitations I have set.

Dan

Good Luck 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:58 PM, JoeO said:

Here's the bumper-sticker version :

Performance comes from shape

Material (and how it is used) defines shape longevity and modifiability

I agree, but this thread has not talked much about weight.  Although the average weight of a sail is about 40% up the mast, weight in a sail is bad in waves  (And when heeled for that matter, but less damaging).  We all know to centralize (or eliminate) all weight,  plus keep it low to allow the boat for be more like a cork than a tanker.  Plowing through waves is slower than riding over them.

To that end, weight in the rig can become momentum stuffing the bow into the next wave.  With the leverage factor in mind weight in the rig can be  substantially worse than weigh on board. 

Oh but wait, I'm supposed to be clueless so ignore this. 

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On 28/11/2017 at 12:58 AM, See Level said:

The best material with  a poor shape will be slow. The best shape with  poor materials will be fast once.

Maybe not even once.

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