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waterboy42

Should the America's Cup do more to include Top Female Sailors

Should the America's Cup do more to include Top Female Sailors  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the America's Cup do more to include Top Female Sailors?

    • Yes - VOR are doing it. Top Female Sailors deserve a sailing career path too.
      17
    • No - You can't have quota's, either you're the best for the job or you're not.
      41


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Guaranteed to be a polarizing topic:

 

Volvo Ocean Race has introduced a (fairly complex) system designed to make it more attractive for teams to include women (see image below)

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9252_Race-changes-rules-to-attract-world-s-best-female-sailors.html

Sailing career options have never been better for elite male sailors, whereas most top (& even Olympic Gold Medalist) women have to "get a day job"

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/331531/america-s-cup-where-are-all-the-women

 

 

Is it possible, desirable, or a backward step for PC appeasers to actively try to include women in the Cup?

 

A couple of possible scenarios to kick off:

1) Mandatory Minimum of 2 women on the boat per team?

2) A fixed maximum crew weight of 1000kg (as ETNZ intends), but not limiting the crew numbers (eg- 10 x 100kg , 12 x 83kg sailors, or 16 x 62kg sailors (or any mix of weights v numbers)) and let the syndicates decide individually like all other options in a Box Rule?

 

VOR Crew Combination Formula:

VOR.png

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The issue the Volvo had was that the racing is endurance based enough that the same old hands where doing all the races. No one under 30, let alone female, got a look in and they where about to be left with an substantial experience gap. So they addressed that though minimums for under 30s. No one so much as batted an eye lid.

If a fella in his late 40s is good for a place on a Volvo boat there isn't much of an argument now about whether a top flight female sailor can hack it. The issue is now more the relative lack of exposure to competition that female sailors get. For instance male Olympic classes go much deeper than the female ones and that lifts every ones game.

For an example of this in action take the Irish rugby team. Over the last 3-4 generations inexperienced youngsters have been able to come straight into the national side and push it on to a higher level. That's not because they are especially more talented that those that went before them. It's because they have been set a higher bench mark by the generation before.

That leaves exactly the same experience gap that the Volvo was worried about with the u30s. It makes sense to address that in the same way, which is basically what they've done.

The Volvo is also an explicitly commercial proposition. The boats competing with private backing are at the back of the fleet, not the front. With more and more female decision makers out there, and more and more of them managing marketing budgets, there is an immediate commercial imperative for the Volvo in terms of addressing the appeal of the event to female decision makers.

How much of that is true of the AC I'm not sure. For sure women are going to find it hard to compete for the fewer and fewer spaces while they are sailing only against them selves at Olympic level. More and more automation should take the physicality out of it but in return to get an AC gig you'll need to prove your self one of the top 4-5 sailors in the world. The platform for a female sailor to demonstrate that currently doesn't exist.

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I think instead of a rule mandating the inclusion of women, I would favor something more along the lines of what they did last time with the kids on the AC45’s. Have a Female series. This would open up opportunities for women to showcase their talents, gain experience in AC-style boats, make connections with existing Cup teams, and hopefully earn their way onto a Cup boat in the future through their own merits. Plus, we get more cool racing to watch. 

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I would really like to see a rule requiring at least one female on the crew team. They don't have to put them on the boat, but they would have to go out and find the best female sailor they could and get her trained. 

Part of the issue right now is that we don't know how good the top female sailors are because none of the teams are even looking in that direction. Sure a female may not have as much stamina or strength as a grinder, but there is no reason they couldn't have been the driver or main trimmer in the last cycle. But by failing to even make a place at the table for them the current system ensures they will never get the training necessary to compete. 

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10 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

I would really like to see a rule requiring at least one female on the crew team.

I agree because it would increase public interest in the event.

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Just require one per team on the boat, that would require at least 2 or 3 on the sailing team in general to cover injury.

It's simple and effective, VOR got so complicated it's crazy!

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Don't they need a woman on board for the VOR to work in the kitchen?

[Ducks, runs, dives for cover...]

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13 hours ago, rgeek said:

If a fella in his late 40s is good for a place on a Volvo boat there isn't much of an argument now about whether a top flight female sailor can hack it.

Although off topic, that is bullshit. Women can hack it, but the guys in the late 40's are still able to provide more strength and power and no less endurance than any woman in the Volvo. Without mandating for women, none would be chosen because of this strength issue. That is why all women teams are allowed more crew, to make up for the lack of strength. I do think that mandating for women in Volvo crews is a good thing, because there should be equality of opportunity and by increasing the people on board, you can offset the reduced power available from the women.

How that translates into the America's Cup is an interesting one. If you take the equality of opportunity argument, then you would say yes, mandate for women on the boat. Make it compulsory for ever team. The biggest challenge is how to ensure that the women are more than token gestures. With the Volvo, they make the boat a bit short handed so the women cannot be token passengers, as Witty found out. That is easier to do with a long distance race where being short handed has a cumulative effect. With (relatively) short AC races, if you are not careful, the women might be given meaningless roles as "the boys" carry the boat around the course. I remember Ernesto Bertarelli was effective;ly a passenger on Alinghi in 2007, sticking his head up occasionally to tackle bearings on the other boat or check their speed. That would be so wrong for any female sailors, but could easily happen.

 

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8 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Although off topic, that is bullshit. Women can hack it, but the guys in the late 40's are still able to provide more strength and power and no less endurance than any woman in the Volvo. Without mandating for women, none would be chosen because of this strength issue. That is why all women teams are allowed more crew, to make up for the lack of strength. I do think that mandating for women in Volvo crews is a good thing, because there should be equality of opportunity and by increasing the people on board, you can offset the reduced power available from the women.

That depends on who the woman is .. If you take Valerie Adams who is the world's woman shot put and Olympic champion she would be stronger than any man in the Volvo fleet .. mind you she would require a larger bunk because she is not exactly petite.

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1 minute ago, Terry Hollis said:

That depends on who the woman is .. If you take Valerie Adams who is the world's woman shot put and Olympic champion she would be stronger than any man in the Volvo fleet .. mind you she would require a larger bunk because she is not exactly petite.

Terry

Note I was replying to a comment about top flight female sailors. AFAIK, Valerie Adams is not a top flight sailor. 

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1 hour ago, Nutta said:

Don't they need a woman on board for the VOR to work in the kitchen?

[Ducks, runs, dives for cover...]

I think most of the blokes can at least boil water and stir, no?

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But are incapable of keeping a kitchen clean...

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4 minutes ago, Nutta said:

But are incapable of keeping a kitchen clean...

That's true.

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33 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Terry

Note I was replying to a comment about top flight female sailors. AFAIK, Valerie Adams is not a top flight sailor. 

Ok .. now that we have established that strength is not the main requirement of a sailor perhaps we can consider some of the women who have sailed around the world single handed?

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6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Although off topic, that is bullshit. Women can hack it, but the guys in the late 40's are still able to provide more strength and power and no less endurance than any woman in the Volvo. Without mandating for women, none would be chosen because of this strength issue. That is why all women teams are allowed more crew, to make up for the lack of strength. I do think that mandating for women in Volvo crews is a good thing, because there should be equality of opportunity and by increasing the people on board, you can offset the reduced power available from the women.

 

If strength and power where the ultimate measures the crews would be much younger.

Weight for weight there's little physiological difference in terms of strength and power either, and sailing is a weight governed sport and offshore is endurance governed i.e. ultimate size and power is not the objective. Nothing shows that more that the tendency towards old crew they stepped into address with the U30 rule. Actually you have to wonder whether, once training capacity issues are leveled through male age, female physiological advantages in endurance, specifically more efficiency in converting food into energy, may allow them to carry additional muscle mass over a long event.

The additional experience of a 40er is more than enough to offset the unneaded physical strength and power of younger crew + contracts and 'proven ability to sail with their mates' or what ever the new excuse is. When people are regularly stepping on to Volvo campaigns with minimal offshore mileage it's not really about experience either though is it?

The benchmark for women is rising.

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1, Would I want to see women in the All Blacks in order to give more visibility to women’s rugby? No.

2, Would I want to see the Black Ferns get more coverage and recognition on tv sports news and channels? Yes.

3, Would I also want to see extra coverage go hand in hand with a ramp up of encouragement and opportunity at grassroots levels?

Absolutely.

 

The AC isn’t gender-divided by rule, but I like to see it practiced by the best and not a quota. If concepts 2&3 above highlight & bring through talented women, then the AC teams will pull them in on merit. I raced for years with three ladies who rocked their positions in IRC0/1 racing. Added to great racing and camaraderie in the crew.

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On 11/28/2017 at 6:55 PM, Team_GBR said:

Although off topic, that is bullshit. Women can hack it, but the guys in the late 40's are still able to provide more strength and power and no less endurance than any woman in the Volvo. Without mandating for women, none would be chosen because of this strength issue. That is why all women teams are allowed more crew, to make up for the lack of strength. I do think that mandating for women in Volvo crews is a good thing, because there should be equality of opportunity and by increasing the people on board, you can offset the reduced power available from the women.

 

 

I don't know if a 20ish woman can beat a 40ish man in physical endurance, but the 40 year old guys aren't doing their first race. They are there after a few decades of proven ability and more important training in how to handle the boats. The problem with introducing women is they have as much experience as the first time men, and the same physical endurance as the 40 year old men. They really are hosed coming and going. 

 

For the Volvo I thought the system was overly complicated but made sense. For the AC I just would like to see a legitimate path. Which is why I suggested mandating them on the team but not the boat. Once they are there the smart teams will find a way to make good use of them, even if its on the second boat.

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1 hour ago, HFC Hunter said:

The AC isn’t gender-divided by rule, but I like to see it practiced by the best and not a quota.

Won't happen that way and comparison to an IRC boat is I am afraid nonsense on stilts.

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On 11/29/2017 at 3:52 AM, Monkey said:

I think instead of a rule mandating the inclusion of women, I would favor something more along the lines of what they did last time with the kids on the AC45’s. Have a Female series. This would open up opportunities for women to showcase their talents, gain experience in AC-style boats, make connections with existing Cup teams, and hopefully earn their way onto a Cup boat in the future through their own merits. Plus, we get more cool racing to watch. 

It wouldn't attract sponsors though and would be seen as a secondary event

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Won't happen that way and comparison to an IRC boat is I am afraid nonsense on stilts.

Hadn’t intended to compare AC to irc. That part was to simply share respect for some damn fine sailors in general.

I’ll try again: I see AC as top of the pyramid. If you want ladies up there, Shirley it’ll help if there’s a fuller pyramid underneath.ie, more woman sailing at all levels. Seems to work that way for every other team sport, and a lot of individual ones - regardless of gender.

To test the theory: what world champ teams can you name that didn’t come through a healthy pyramid under them?

 

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If the goal is more women in the AC, either there must be a mandated number on the boat, or a separate women's series. In the last AC most members on the crew were there purely for power, there were really only two positions where power to weight wasn't the primary criterion for inclusion.

I tend to agree with HFC Hunter in that you can't always mix men and women in the same event: no one is calling for mixed relays in sprinting, nor mixed relays or medleys in swimming. Nor are cycling tours mixing women with men in the same event.

So the obvious choice for the AC is a women's series sailed in the same boats, on the same water, between the men's races. A bonus would be a mixed series where the women's and men's teams pair off and crews are split 50/50 between the boats by sex (in the case of a 12 person crew, 6 women and 6 men on each boat). Then they'd have the option of stacking the power positions with men but leave the brains to women on one boat, and vice versa on the other. It would be interesting to see which mix worked out the best.

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Rob,

There is no reason a female couldn't have been a driver or trimmer on any of the boats last cycle except that there is no good route for them to get there. Until that changes and there is a pathway to the top teams will always take the conservative choice and just promote from within, or from a TP-52 program, etc. 

I don't think anyone would expect a female to really match up as a grinder, but until they are invited to the party somehow they will never get the training needed to crack the top of the sport.

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The moth and A class cats are 2 of the classes which seem to breed AC sailors. 

From my understanding there are no gender restrictions in these classes. How many  female sailors compete in these classes to gain experience.?

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In common with most sports now there is zero pathway from the grass root of the sport to the elite level. On top of that the route to elite level has been professionalized. TToP is basically a post grad for the Artemis Academy.

 

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In the days of low-rider Moths light was fast and there were very competitive women sailors. Now optimum weight has gone up, the strength requirement has gone up and the top woman in the Garda Worlds was 51st,

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On 11/29/2017 at 2:10 PM, Terry Hollis said:

That depends on who the woman is .. If you take Valerie Adams who is the world's woman shot put and Olympic champion she would be stronger than any man in the Volvo fleet .. mind you she would require a larger bunk because she is not exactly petite.

You're not lying...

image.jpeg.44460bb4211df59cfb273294f6dad8da.jpeg

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Her bro is pretty famous for playing hoops when not mistaken for a game of thrones warrior. They come from a big family with 17 kids the boys AVERAGE! over 2m and the girls 6 feet.

You’re gonna need a bigger boat:

 

 

51454336-8104-42F1-B877-A57E1D8D6AD9.jpeg

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On 11/28/2017 at 8:14 PM, Team_GBR said:

Terry

Note I was replying to a comment about top flight female sailors. AFAIK, Valerie Adams is not a top flight sailor. 

So? Kiwis had a bike rider who had never sailed before the AC.

But carry on with stiff up lip bullshit.

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2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

So? Kiwis had a bike rider who had never sailed before the AC.

But carry on with stiff up lip bullshit.

Again, totally irrelevant. I was quoting somebody who was comparing "top flight female sailors". Not my words, somebody else said that. You also missed we were talking about the women in the Volvo, so that doesn't include female shot putters or cyclists. Please stop taking words out of context, unless you are just trolling.

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On 30/11/2017 at 8:00 PM, StumbleNola said:

Rob,

There is no reason a female couldn't have been a driver or trimmer on any of the boats last cycle except that there is no good route for them to get there. Until that changes and there is a pathway to the top teams will always take the conservative choice and just promote from within, or from a TP-52 program, etc. 

I don't think anyone would expect a female to really match up as a grinder, but until they are invited to the party somehow they will never get the training needed to crack the top of the sport.

I think it would only work if the no. of women on the sailing crew was fixed across teams. 

The idea that the woman would have to be better than the male grinder on the next pedestal wouldn't work and would be irrelevant, they would have to be better than the rival woman on the other boat.. 

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14 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

I think it would only work if the no. of women on the sailing crew was fixed across teams. 

The idea that the woman would have to be better than the male grinder on the next pedestal wouldn't work and would be irrelevant, they would have to be better than the rival woman on the other boat.. 

What next..mandatory 2 midgets per team? The question posed is fucking stupid. Teams are out to win the AC - if they felt a female exists on the planet now who will help them win, they would grab her quicker than Weinstein or Trump can grab her by the p***y.

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57 minutes ago, Indio said:

What next..mandatory 2 midgets per team? The question posed is fucking stupid. Teams are out to win the AC - if they felt a female exists on the planet now who will help them win, they would grab her quicker than Weinstein or Trump can grab her by the p***y.

 

If all that is needed is grinders - women won't have a chance (but it would also be better to use chimpanzees - much stronger and about the same weight).

If they have a nationality clause - a male/female clause is equally correct.

 

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1 hour ago, arneelof said:

 

If all that is needed is grinders - women won't have a chance (but it would also be better to use chimpanzees - much stronger and about the same weight).

If they have a nationality clause - a male/female clause is equally correct.

 

It'll never happen in this lifetime - as it should be.

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I think people are more atracted to a mixed crew simply because it's more fun to look at.
So there will be more spectators, more income from sponsors, bigger audience, better parties.
Or am I to optimistic?
 5a2146a4a2c4b_JenaMaiHansen.jpg.daaafd961fa141d6086643b4306be9d8.jpg
5a2146b6b5866_CarolijnBrouwer.jpg.25cec4bea1abefda6d888656d681a3df.jpg
I am particulaire fond of the top sailing ladies!

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For the Olympics it was a hack, that ultimately provides a platform for women to prove them selves equal to men (pound for pound).

For the Volvo it's the next logical step. It puts women on the same step as the u30 men in terms of enabling them to gain the same experience, exposing them to the same culture/performance benchmarks and put a straight up win/placing on the CV. Plus it gives Dee a leadership opportunity on the same playing field as the guys.

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12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Treating other people with decency is a good start.

What's your point?

 

" Because we are not concerned with you "   I believe is your watchword printed under your name..   All well and good but how does that jive with treating people with decency ?   My point is talk is cheap especially from predators if one looks at the current  Weinstein / Lauer  syndrome and damage to women being exposed.    That is my point.    You are probably a Saint  but  that does not mean everyone in AC  is one.    How do you propose to avoid the syndrome ?   Other than by keeping women out ?

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Oh I see. So you are suggesting women must be prevented from sailing to in order to protect them from predatory males.

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sexual harrassment is about power .........  I have no answers.......I simply asked the question.........you can be dismissive or give it some thought.......

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11 hours ago, arneelof said:

If they have a nationality clause - a male/female clause is equally correct.

 

This is my view on it as well.

If you have other restrictions on how crew qualify (nationality, resisdency, maximum total weight, etc...) why is a requirment for some small gender balance any different and so offensive to some people?

To a certain extent you can use the same logic for lots of things, why can't teams tank test? or race two boats? or any of a host of other restrictions to either reign in costs, even the field, or just make the event more interesting? These are all widely accepted parts of the protocol.

I just can't see how having one woman sailor on each boat would somehow make the event worse and I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why it would make it better.

They are also deliberately trying to make the event affordable and attractive to a bunch of teams everyone knows aren't going to win, yet no one seems to thinks this is a bad idea even though they claim to want to only see the best of the best and everything done on merit alone.

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5 hours ago, Boybland said:

This is my view on it as well.

If you have other restrictions on how crew qualify (nationality, resisdency, maximum total weight, etc...) why is a requirment for some small gender balance any different and so offensive to some people?

To a certain extent you can use the same logic for lots of things, why can't teams tank test? or race two boats? or any of a host of other restrictions to either reign in costs, even the field, or just make the event more interesting? These are all widely accepted parts of the protocol.

I just can't see how having one woman sailor on each boat would somehow make the event worse and I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why it would make it better.

They are also deliberately trying to make the event affordable and attractive to a bunch of teams everyone knows aren't going to win, yet no one seems to thinks this is a bad idea even though they claim to want to only see the best of the best and everything done on merit alone.

It’s simple. The kiwis who wrote the protocol are a bunch of self centered cunts, and proud of it.

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8 hours ago, Boybland said:

They are also deliberately trying to make the event affordable and attractive to a bunch of teams everyone knows aren't going to win

They say they are. Defenders tend to say that. In reality I see very little about the protocol or class of boat that actually makes the event affordable or attractive to new or smaller teams and I'm not sure there has been a Cup in decades where so few teams so far seem to be showing a concrete interest in entering.

I just can't see how having one woman sailor on each boat would somehow make the event worse and I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why it would make it better.

I agree but the ridiculous and half-arsed nationality clause of AC36 shows we are still in the land where an objective of the AC is to provide a well-paying gig for the incumbent group of professional sailors i.e. men.

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In spite of holding what I consider rather progressive viewpoints & applauding the direction that VOR have taken, I'm leaning towards a no, something just feels a bit off about it in the context of the AC, I haven't dropped a vote yet so color me "undecided".

A bit off topic but maybe some with better recall might help me decipher what happened the last time there was a bonafide female team in the AC (mostly female anyway, A3 defender challenge, back when those existed), I have always felt their was something fishy about the result of their last race.

And for what it's worth I still think Young America should have scuttled the "Dorthy" so that Team D.C. had to defend with the "Blue Clunker", always disliked that arrogant little prick.

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The Protocol would need a Weinstein / Lauer  Clause providing for a calling out process with protections  and  severe punishments ........ 

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On 30/11/2017 at 11:44 PM, HFC Hunter said:

Her bro is pretty famous for playing hoops when not mistaken for a game of thrones warrior. They come from a big family with 17 kids the boys AVERAGE! over 2m and the girls 6 feet.

You’re gonna need a bigger boat:

 

 

51454336-8104-42F1-B877-A57E1D8D6AD9.jpeg

He had a wicked game the other night!

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That is a sport I have zero aptitude for & less than zero interest in. Just a bunch of tall people playing a game of keep away?

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On 12/3/2017 at 5:41 AM, GC&GC said:

The Protocol would need a Weinstein / Lauer  Clause providing for a calling out process with protections  and  severe punishments ........ 

What about a Spacey clause as well, need to protect them young blokes as well or do you not give a fuck about them.

For someone who claims to be old enough to be retired you sure come across as a needy asshole. Or did I miss the sarcasm font.

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2 hours ago, GC&GC said:

were you molested?   how d. id you become so full of hate ?

You seem.  to have the problem with only thinking of the ladies and being happy to throw the young men to the wolves.

Daddy issues perhaps in your sad past.

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male molestation of males has not made the media black hole as yet  (except for a bit of Spacey whom you know intimately apparently)  but it will ultimately hit the air waves with gay and heady abandon,  as it were.........I ignored this aspect,   but I bow to your superior knowledge and involvement.

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On 12/1/2017 at 11:23 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Stupid question, stupid thread, stupid answers.

It's not a yes or no, it's ON MERIT ALONE.

We all like to pretend that sport meritocratic. But it's a myth.

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1 hour ago, rustylaru said:

We all like to pretend that sport meritocratic. But it's a myth.

Yes and no. There is always politics involved in every sport that results in some individuals not getting a fair shake.

But I'm not convinced there is a gender bias going on here. 

Imagine if etnz had employed female cyclors. Would they have produced enough oil to win? Perhaps, but certainly not as much as the men.

Would anyone seriously have proposed etnz dump Ashby? Even more than Burling, he was a critical part of their success.

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I agree there is probably not a lot of gender bias in winning AC.......it is arguably a meritocracy at work......but if women are  dictated in  by misplaced pc  mandate,   then I believe they need overview protection by clearly stated anti Weinstein/Lauer Protocol provisions.    Male or female or transgender or space alien  posturing can be expressed in many ways......LGBTQXYZer/Zhe  or whatever  will  be  watching closely.    We must be very careful to express any opinions whilst  the autocratic left  waits to pounce.

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34 minutes ago, GC&GC said:

I agree there is probably not a lot of gender bias in winning AC.......it is arguably a meritocracy at work......but if women are  dictated in  by misplaced pc  mandate,   then I believe they need overview protection by clearly stated anti Weinstein/Lauer Protocol provisions.    Male or female or transgender or space alien  posturing can be expressed in many ways......LGBTQXYZer/Zhe  or whatever  will  be  watching closely.    We must be very careful to express any opinions whilst  the autocratic left  waits to pounce.

Geeze you really have No idea. Just because there are few women on the boats, doesn't mean that there are no women in the teams. From what i have experienced,  they are well respected and treated as equals. 

 Fucking dinosaur. 

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Women on board in the old french navy were called " le lest du diable". Go figure....

I won't translate to prevent the flak from some :D

Not sure where they where going with that? That they couldn't keep their dicks in their pants for more than 30 seconds?

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7 hours ago, rgeek said:

Not sure where they where going with that? That they couldn't keep their dicks in their pants for more than 30 seconds?

Their dick did not kill, knives fight for a woman did.

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On 12/2/2017 at 4:59 PM, Barnyb said:

No!

unless on merit alone.

Your privilege is showing!

You can never claim someone holds a position on merit alone when there is inherent bias in the system which put them there.
Perhaps if (for example) they trial equal numbers of male and female applicants, then that might remove some bias. Of course that's just the one factor; as long as (for the reasons already discussed) there are less opportunities for females to gain the required experience to become eligible for consideration in the first place there will be bias.

Pick a point anywhere along the line and start removing bias and you have a step in the right direction, this applies globally of course not just a particular sport.

For the AC specifically; I think more effort should be made to include female sailors.
The VOR might not have nailed it, but I think they're moving in the right direction. Without making it compulsory, give those teams that employ female sailors a competitive incentive.

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On 11/30/2017 at 5:00 PM, StumbleNola said:

Rob,

There is no reason a female couldn't have been a driver or trimmer on any of the boats last cycle except that there is no good route for them to get there. Until that changes and there is a pathway to the top teams will always take the conservative choice and just promote from within, or from a TP-52 program, etc. 

I don't think anyone would expect a female to really match up as a grinder, but until they are invited to the party somehow they will never get the training needed to crack the top of the sport.

Hence the reason for a separate series. It's already done in just about every other sport: tennis, cycling, golf, sqaush, rowing, soccer, even rugby and cricket. Eventually sailing will catch up, why does it need to take a few generations longer than other sports?

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

...why does it need to take a few generations longer than other sports?

Because there is ONLY ONE America's Cup, and long may it remain the domain of the big spenders, the best designers and the best sailors. They can certainly run a Women's Prada Handbag Cup for ladies if there's interest, but the AC is the AC and are under no obligations to selectorial tokenism.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Because there is ONLY ONE America's Cup, and long may it remain the domain of the big spenders, the best designers and the best sailors. They can certainly run a Women's Prada Handbag Cup for ladies if there's interest, but the AC is the AC and are under no obligations to selectorial tokenism.

... well apart from the Youth Americas Cup obviously

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On 11/30/2017 at 10:44 AM, HFC Hunter said:

Her bro is pretty famous for playing hoops when not mistaken for a game of thrones warrior. They come from a big family with 17 kids the boys AVERAGE! over 2m and the girls 6 feet.

You’re gonna need a bigger boat:

 

 

51454336-8104-42F1-B877-A57E1D8D6AD9.jpeg

Never heard of this guy.  Then again I prefer college hoops over the NBA.  Looking at his stats he appears to be a role player.  Guess he is famous in Kiwi land.  ;)

To the thread topic, why not a female requirement for the AC?  As some have said, there are requirements/restrictions on nationality.  Why not gender?  I am surprised such a progressive country like New Zealand hasn't demanded it.  Maybe it will be part of the hosting rights agreement.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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10 hours ago, WetHog said:

Never heard of this guy.  Then again I prefer college hoops over the NBA.  Looking at his stats he appears to be a role player.  Guess he is famous in Kiwi land.  ;)

To the thread topic, why not a female requirement for the AC?  As some have said, there are requirements/restrictions on nationality.  Why not gender?  I am surprised such a progressive country like New Zealand hasn't demanded it.  Maybe it will be part of the hosting rights agreement.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Progressive? You mean as in social engineering? Yeah. We've got plenty of that shit already.

 

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Just watched the VOR inshore from Cape Town, once again it becomes obvious that from a spectator viewpoint there are no real negatives to having a female sailor on the boats and loads of positives, it's just more interesting!

The commentators made the point to, one of them was in the all womens team that sailed a few years ago and she was saying there is an absolute world of difference in the experience you gain sailing with a bunch of other women who have never done the event before versus sailing with someone who has done the event 7 or 8 times! The only thing that is going to build the required experiences to then be passed down to newer generations of female sailors is having some of them actually competing at the top level.  Under the current process (which lets face it has had a bloody long time to succeed if it was going to) it's pretty clear this is simply not going to happen.

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There's a reason why the Black Ferns don't play against the All Blacks, both teams in the top level of their code. Same reason why Michelle Wie, Lexi Thompson, et al don't compete against Justin Johnson, Jordan Spieth & co. The top women sailors will always be at the top of female sailing and should be and are recognised universally for their achievements. Mandating to have token females in AC sailing teams does the women a disservice - if one is good enough to replace a male sailor, it'll happen.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

There's a reason why the Black Ferns don't play against the All Blacks, both teams in the top level of their code. Same reason why Michelle Wie, Lexi Thompson, et al don't compete against Justin Johnson, Jordan Spieth & co. The top women sailors will always be at the top of female sailing and should be and are recognised universally for their achievements. Mandating to have token females in AC sailing teams does the women a disservice - if one is good enough to replace a male sailor, it'll happen.

I agree with that but the junior competition provides a pathway to the AC for males .. it would be nice if they had a female competition pathway as well .. maybe the top female boat could race the top junior boat.

It would certainly increase the spectators if nothing else.

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On ‎09‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:17 AM, Sailbydate said:

Progressive? You mean as in social engineering? Yeah. We've got plenty of that shit already.

 

Weird isn't it, how the supposedly week keep gradually winning.

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7 hours ago, Indio said:

There's a reason why the Black Ferns don't play against the All Blacks, both teams in the top level of their code. Same reason why Michelle Wie, Lexi Thompson, et al don't compete against Justin Johnson, Jordan Spieth & co. The top women sailors will always be at the top of female sailing and should be and are recognised universally for their achievements. Mandating to have token females in AC sailing teams does the women a disservice - if one is good enough to replace a male sailor, it'll happen.

Rugby is a sport where optimum strength and physicality dominate. Same with golf.

Offshore sailing evidently is not. Endurance -- where weight for weight women outperform men -- counts as much. A lot of offshore sailors are not as a rule big guys. There are women out there of similar size who shouldn't be held off the boat just because the average house wife is smaller than her beer swilling husband. If you think straight up prejudice hasn't been a factor you haven't been paying attention.

The AC? A certain number of positions are clearly power based, but then again they're getting automated off the boats. Would it useful to mandate female participation in the AC? At this point there are to many pathway issues and attention would be better directed there. Is there a commercial necessity? I was going to say no, that the AC is doing fine living off playboy patrons. But then again they seem to be a ageing breed in short supply and an AC in the home of sailing is struggling to attract more than half a dozen teams.

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

...and an AC in the home of sailing is struggling to attract more than half a dozen teams.

The "struggling" to attract Challengers has more to do with the cost and the challenge of being competitive in a new design.

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18 hours ago, Indio said:

The "struggling" to attract Challengers has more to do with the cost and the challenge of being competitive in a new design.

There are plenty of people and organisations with the money, more likely is they don't see any kind of ROI supporting an elitist white male sport.

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

There are plenty of people and organisations with the money, more likely is they don't see any kind of ROI supporting an elitist white male sport.

The people with the money are simply spending their promotional and discretionary spending elsewhere, for any number of reasons - nothing to do with a dislike for "an elitist white male sport".

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On 10/12/2017 at 11:40 AM, Indio said:

There's a reason why the Black Ferns don't play against the All Blacks, both teams in the top level of their code. Same reason why Michelle Wie, Lexi Thompson, et al don't compete against Justin Johnson, Jordan Spieth & co. The top women sailors will always be at the top of female sailing and should be and are recognised universally for their achievements. Mandating to have token females in AC sailing teams does the women a disservice - if one is good enough to replace a male sailor, it'll happen.

So basically mixed doubles in tennis is just token women playing in a mens doubles game?

It is actually possible to have a serious competition involving both men and women at the same time on the same team in a mandated manner, it's not some a strange oddity or abberation it happens all the time in a multitude of sports.

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47 minutes ago, Boybland said:

So basically mixed doubles in tennis is just token women playing in a mens doubles game?

 

That's a fucking stupid comparison! Men and women do compete in mixed-foursomes in golf, but they don't play mixed rugby for obvious reasons. Having a token woman in an AC team racing against an all-male ETNZ team of top sailors would be like a mixed double playing against a men's pair in tennis - not a good result for the mixed pair.

Amateur golf is possibly the only game where men and women can compete against one another in a match, thanks to the handicapping system which allows a man to have a match against a female even though they play off different tees. Lawn bowls, table tennis, squash, badminton perhaps...

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