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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Spoonie

Text book bouy room stuff? Closing the door and protests

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So I poked my nose in where it didn't belong tonight.  Circle time and that was the end of it. but...

The manoeuvre is a fairly text book fleet racing one.  Find yourself at the ugly end of a multi boat pile up at the bottom mark.  Slow down, drop back, hug the stern of the inside boat as the outside boats push wide and cut in early. In this case boat #1 whipped through quicker than I was expecting,  #2 & #3 were slower than I was expecting and the big hole that was there became a not quite so big a hole as #2 tried to close the door.   No paint was traded, literally #2 just had to pulled back a little.  

Like I said, text book fleet racing manoeuvre, I just got it a little wrong.  Before you go all "you had not rights" on my ass, it's perfectly legal to take room if it's given.  If someone pushes wide and you can nip up the inside without fouling them, then good for you.  In this case #3 was pretty vocal, and even if I hadn't fouled #2, I would have easily nipped up inside #3. My actions did not change the course #3 had to sail due the room he had to give to #2 and #1.

In my mental debrief afterwards, apart from thinking about how and if I could have pulled it off, but 2 things

1) Mark room is all about giving room to sail to the the mark if the proper course is to sail close to it and room to round the mark to sail the course.  Proper course is the fastest course in the absence of other boats.  on a windward that's generally close hauled.  So at a bottom mark, a boat entitled to mark room that pushes wide, are they allowed to close the door by sailing above close hauled? 

That is to say, a boat clear astern has to give a boat clear ahead room to sail her proper course around the mark.  above close hauled is not proper course.  in the same breath, windward boat must keep clear, and the leeward boat can not change course without giving the windward boat room to keep clear.   So I guess my interpretation of all that is if you push wide, you can sail to close hauled, but if someone can nip inside without fouling you or the mark then you're shit out of luck.  You can't pinch up to close the door because you're only entitled to room to sail your proper course and if you do, you have to show you gave him opportunity to keep clear.  Until at least you clear the mark then you can luff him.  

2) outside boat #3 gets all hot and the collar and takes the clear astern guy to the room, even though clear astern guy did not foul #3 in any way but arguably may have fouled #2.  #2 would have had to push wide regardless to give #1 room.   Does the protest room make a judgement about whether there was any foul between any boat in the incident and make a ruling, or does it find that there was no foul between #3 and #clearAstern guy listed in the protest form prior to the start of the hearing (notice my choice of words), and toss it? 

does any of that make any sense?

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1 hour ago, Spoonie said:

So I poked my nose in where it didn't belong tonight.  Circle time and that was the end of it. but...

The manoeuvre is a fairly text book fleet racing one.  Find yourself at the ugly end of a multi boat pile up at the bottom mark.  Slow down, drop back, hug the stern of the inside boat as the outside boats push wide and cut in early. In this case boat #1 whipped through quicker than I was expecting,  #2 & #3 were slower than I was expecting and the big hole that was there became a not quite so big a hole as #2 tried to close the door.   No paint was traded, literally #2 just had to pulled back a little.  

Like I said, text book fleet racing manoeuvre, I just got it a little wrong.  Before you go all "you had not rights" on my ass, it's perfectly legal to take room if it's given.  If someone pushes wide and you can nip up the inside without fouling them, then good for you.  In this case #3 was pretty vocal, and even if I hadn't fouled #2, I would have easily nipped up inside #3. My actions did not change the course #3 had to sail due the room he had to give to #2 and #1.

In my mental debrief afterwards, apart from thinking about how and if I could have pulled it off, but 2 things

1) Mark room is all about giving room to sail to the the mark if the proper course is to sail close to it and room to round the mark to sail the course.  Proper course is the fastest course in the absence of other boats.  on a windward that's generally close hauled.  So at a bottom mark, a boat entitled to mark room that pushes wide, are they allowed to close the door by sailing above close hauled? 

The use of 'proper course' in the definition of mark-room (for fleet racing) is to provide a condition or test to define what mark-room is while a boat is sailing towards the mark.  The definition creates no obligation about sailing above, below or upon a boat's proper course.

 

In the following you seem to be overlooking the effect of rule 21:  as long a a boat entitled to mark-room is sailing within the mark-room or room to which she is entitled she shall be exonerated if does not keep clear or give room to keep clear.

That is to say, a boat clear astern (I take it you mean a boat that was clear astern when the other boat reached the zone) has to give a boat clear ahead room to sail her proper course around the mark.

No she does not:  she shall give the other boat room to 'round the mark as necessary to sail the course' (Definition:  Mark-room).   As long as she is sailing within that room, the other boat can change course as hard and as fast as she likes, and can change tacks or fall clear astern so as to become the give-way boat, and then not keep clear, and she will be exonerated under rule 21.

  above close hauled is not proper course.

See above:  she has no obligation with respect to proper course.

  in the same breath, windward boat must keep clear, and the leeward boat can not change course without giving the windward boat room to keep clear.

If the mark-room entitled boat is to windward and does not keep clear, or, to leeward and does not give room to keep clear then as long as she is within the mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall be exonerated if she does not keep clear or give room to keep clear (rule 21).

   So I guess my interpretation of all that is if you push wide, you can sail to close hauled, but if someone can nip inside without fouling you or the mark then you're shit out of luck.

Nope.  If you're entitled to mark-room, you can stick it to 'em as hard and as fast as you like.

  You can't pinch up to close the door because you're only entitled to room to sail your proper course

No, there are no restrictions about proper course applicable.

and if you do, you have to show you gave him opportunity to keep clear.  Until at least you clear the mark then you can luff him.  

No, you are exonerated if you do not give room to keep clear as long as you are sailing within the mark-room to which you are entitled.

2) outside boat #3 gets all hot and the collar and takes the clear astern guy to the room, even though clear astern guy did not foul #3 in any way but arguably may have fouled #2.  #2 would have had to push wide regardless to give #1 room.   Does the protest room make a judgement about whether there was any foul between any boat in the incident and make a ruling, or does it find that there was no foul between #3 and #clearAstern guy listed in the protest form prior to the start of the hearing (notice my choice of words), and toss it? 

It's all the same 'incident'.  #3 might be alleging either that #Astern failed to give #3 mark-room or that #Astern failed to give #2 mark-room (or mightn't be clear in her mind which boat #Astern failed to give mark-room to).  But either way, #3 is going to bring evidence that #Astern did not give #2 mark-room, and 'once the protest committee concludes 'that a boat that is a party to a protest hearing has broken a rule and is not exonerated it shall disqualify her unless some other penalty applies' (rule 64.1).

does any of that make any sense?

 

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Roger that...

So when is it deemed "having given Mark-room" has ended?   is it the moment the entitled boat is on proper course and past the mark? 

on 21:  you are exonerated if you are sailing within the mark-room you are entitled.  mark-room includes the definition of room which is prompt and seamanlike, not to act like a crazy man.

Are there cases which show the limitations on mark-room for the entitled? 

The scary proposition here is the lost of rule 16 through 21.   It can go from "I'm giving you room..."  to "w.tf!" very quickly.

I've had a previous scenario.  #OB is above #CA by a couple of boat lengths and says "no room" to which #CA goes fine, there's plenty of room and sails directly to the mark assuming #OB does likewise.  #OB promptly does an S bend manoeuvre and the aft main sheet drags in the water and just nicks the bow as #OB turns hard in a way #CA is unable to respond.   with the extra room #OB sailed and the manoeuvre #CA is now inside overlapped.  #OB claims #CA didn't give room to sail to the mark.  #CA claims they gave plenty of room for #OB to sail *TO* the mark but #OB chose to try and close the door. 

21 would suggest #OB has carte blanche to do as they please and if #CA is unable to respond, then bad luck?  or does the definition of mark-room and room place reasonable limitations on that? 

 

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I'd absolutely defer to Brass, but I have a question about this new scenario...

Assuming this was fleet racing (not team or match racing)...  would #CA have grounds to argue that #OB intentionally acted to entrap them into a foul?  Perhaps they could counterprotest that it was a Rule 69 situation?  For example, if #OB was second in the regatta and #CA was winning by 10 points and #OB explicitly needed #CA to post a DSQ?

I'm personally thinking that a situation like that might be different from whatever Brass' response to the question as written would be.  My guess is Brass will confirm that if #OB simply dropped the tiller or had a crap rounding or whatever, without explicitly acting to intentionally entrap #CA, then it's still #CA's fault whether they like it or not.  Probably best at that point to do a counterclockwise 360 and hope that #OB gets around the mark in the meantime.  Better than a 720 after the mark.

Which poses an interesting additional question...  let's say that happens...  #CA makes a left turn short of the leeward mark, tacks, and then gybes, to give #OB time to get around.  #CA stays inside the circle while doing this donut.  In the meantime, other boats who were astern of #CA when the debacle started are now at the mark.  THOSE boats still owe #CA room, right?  So #CA can be yelling at them to give retain his room while he's tacking.  Probably producing a giant cluster (hopefully behind him), which sucks, but hopefully at the bar later, everyone would be pissed at #OB, not #CA.

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51 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

Roger that...

So when is it deemed "having given Mark-room" has ended?   is it the moment the entitled boat is on proper course and past the mark?

That looks pretty sound.

The cessation of mark-room is a new provision in the 2017 rules.  There have been no cases or published appeals on it.

on 21:  you are exonerated if you are sailing within the mark-room you are entitled.  mark-room includes the definition of room which is prompt and seamanlike, not to act like a crazy man.

'Room' is defined as space needed [to do a certain thing, round a mark, keep clear etc), depending on existing conditions and seamanllike manoeuvre.  Once the 'space' has been established by the definition, the definition does not prescribe any limitations on how a boat may manoeuvre within that space:  that is done by the applicable Part 2 rules.

Mark-room around a mark is usually understood to be an envelope of space around a mark.  It would be somewhat novel to conceptualise mark-room as a ribbon or path around but not contiguous to a mark:  even if this were so, the margin of space between the mark and the inside edge of the mark-room space, surely would not be as wide as a boat's beam?

While a mark-room entitled boat will be exonerated for breaches of right of way or room to keep clear rules, she can't 'act like a crazy man' if, in doing so, she makes contact with another boat and breaks rule 14.

I would also point out that there's nothing unseamanlike in a hard luff. 

Are there cases which show the limitations on mark-room for the entitled?

Here are the Headnotes of Cases and US Appeals about mark-room

Mark-Room
Appeal 3—
An inside windward boat, given sufficient mark-room at a mark, is required to keep
clear of an outside leeward boat. A right-of-way boat may not be penalized under rule 14 unless
there is damage or injury.
Appeal 20—Mark-room is not defined to allow an inside boat without right of way to sail to a
mark in a tactically desirable manner.
Appeal 89—A boat that enters the zone clear astern does not necessarily have to give the boat
clear ahead mark-room under rule 18.2(b) until the boat clear ahead completes her rounding
maneuver. During the maneuver, all of rule 18 may cease to apply, or rule 18.2(b) alone may
cease to apply. In either case, if the boat clear ahead tacks she becomes subject to rule 13 when
she passes head to wind.
Case 15—In tacking to round a mark, a boat clear ahead must comply with rule 13; a boat clear
astern is entitled to hold her course and thereby prevent the other from tacking.
Case 21—When a right-of-way boat is obligated to give mark-room to a boat overlapped inside
her, there is no maximum or minimum amount of space that she must give. The amount of
space that she must give depends significantly on the existing conditions including wind and
sea conditions, the speed of the inside boat, the sails she has set and her design characteristics.
Case 25—When an inside overlapped windward boat that is entitled to mark-room takes more
space than she is entitled to, she must keep clear of the outside leeward boat, and the outside
boat may luff provided that she gives the inside boat room to keep clear.
Case 63—At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may,
at her own risk, take advantage of the space.
Case 70—An inside overlapped windward boat that is entitled to mark-room from the outside
boat must keep clear of the outside boat and, if she is sailing outside of the mark-room to which
she is entitled, she is not exonerated if she fails to keep clear.
Case 95—If two overlapped boats on the same tack are on a beat to windward and are subject
to rule 18.2(b), rule 18 ceases to apply when either of them turns past head to wind. When a
boat is required to give another boat mark-room, the space she must give includes space for
the other boat to comply with rule 31. When the boat entitled to mark-room is compelled to
touch the mark while sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, she is exonerated
for her breach of rule 31.
Case 114—When a boat is entitled to room, the space she is entitled to includes space for her
to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31.
Case 118—In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to
sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.

Here are the Cases and Appeals on room:

Room
Appeal 6 —A leeward port-tack boat must give a windward por t-tack boat room to pass a starboard-
tack boat that is an obstruct ion. Rule 64.1 permits the disqualification of a boat that was
a part y to a protest hearing , even if she was not protested.
A ppeal 36—When three boats are on the same tack, a boat clear ahead of the other two i s an
obstruction to them. If the boats clear astern are overlapped and about to pass the boat clear
ahead, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between hersel f and the boat
clear ahead.
Appeal 78 — A boat that acquires right of way over a second boat and causes the second boat to
break a r ule of Part 2 in order to keep clear of her, breaks rule 15 by not initially giving the second
boat room to keep clear.
Case 21 —W hen a right-of-way boat is obligated to give mark-room to a boat overlapped inside
her, there is no maximum or minimum amount of space that she must give. The amount of
space that she must give depends significantly on the existing conditions including w ind and
sea conditions, the speed of the inside boat, the sai ls she has set and her design characteristics.
Case 24 —W hen a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat must
act promptly to keep clear. When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way, she has not been given
room as required by r ule 15.
Case 93 — If a boat luffs immediately after she becomes overlapped to leeward of another boat
and there is no seamanlike action that would enable the other boat to keep clear, the boat that
luffed breaks rules 15 and 16.1. The other boat break s rule 11, but is exonerated.
Case 95—If two overlapped boats on the same tack are on a beat to windward and are subject to
rule 18.2(b), rule 18 ceases to apply when either of them turns past head to wind. W hen a boat
is required to give another boat mark-room, the space she must give includes space for the other
boat to comply with rule 31. When the boat entitled to mark-room is compelled to touch the
mark while sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, she is exonerated for her
breach of rule 31.
Case 103—The phrase ‘seamanlike way’ in the definition Room refers to boat-handling that
can reasonably be expected from a competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number
for the boat.
Case 114—When a boat is entitled to room, the space she is entitled to includes space for her
to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31.
Case 118—In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to
sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.
Case 125—When an outside overlapped boat is required to give room to one or more inside
boats to pass an obstruction, the space she gives must be sufficient to permit all the inside boats
to comply with their obligations under the rules of Part 2.

The scary proposition here is the lost of rule 16 through 21.   It can go from "I'm giving you room..."  to "w.tf!" very quickly.

I can't readily envisage the difficulties you foresee in circumstances other than where the boat required to give mark-room goes inside at the mark.  Can you describe any other scenario?

For a boat going inside, she takes all the risk on herself:

Case 63—At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may,
at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

I've had a previous scenario.  #OB is above #CA by a couple of boat lengths and says "no room" to which #CA goes fine, there's plenty of room and sails directly to the mark assuming #OB does likewise.  #OB promptly does an S bend manoeuvre and the aft main sheet drags in the water and just nicks the bow as #OB turns hard in a way #CA is unable to respond.   with the extra room #OB sailed and the manoeuvre #CA is now inside overlapped.  #OB claims #CA didn't give room to sail to the mark.  #CA claims they gave plenty of room for #OB to sail *TO* the mark but #OB chose to try and close the door. 

21 would suggest #OB has carte blanche to do as they please and if #CA is unable to respond, then bad luck?  or does the definition of mark-room and room place reasonable limitations on that? 

Rule 21 exoneration only applies while a boat is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

Unlike the notion of mark-room around a mark, mark-room to sail to a mark can be conceived of as a 'path' bounded on each side.

If OB changed course so that she was no longer sailing to the mark, but sailing to a position other than on the required side of the mark, then she would not be sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled and would not be exonerated if she did not give CA room to keep clear.

If it came to a protest hearing, it would all depend on the exact evidence given by the parties.

 

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27 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

Assuming this was fleet racing (not team or match racing)...  would #CA have grounds to argue that #OB intentionally acted to entrap them into a foul?

No.  It's part of the game that a boat while breaking no rule herself, may manoeuvre another boat into breaking a rule and being penalised.

Perhaps they could counterprotest that it was a Rule 69 situation?  For example, if #OB was second in the regatta and #CA was winning by 10 points and #OB explicitly needed #CA to post a DSQ?

This is nothing like a rule 69 situation and 'an allegatiion of a breach of rule 69 ... shall not be grounds for a protest' (rule 69.1( c )).

A boat is absolutely entitled to sail, in any race, in a way that may benefit her series score, as long as she does not break any other rule.

CASE 78
In a fleet race either for one-design boats or for boats racing under a handicap or rating system, a boat may use tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder another boat’s progress in the race, provided that, if she is protested under rule 2 for doing so, the protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance of her tactics benefiting either her final ranking in the event or her chances of gaining selection for another event or for her national team. However, she breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a), if while using those tactics she intentionally breaks a rule.

I'm personally thinking that a situation like that might be different from whatever Brass' response to the question as written would be.  My guess is Brass will confirm that if #OB simply dropped the tiller or had a crap rounding or whatever, without explicitly acting to intentionally entrap #CA, then it's still technically #CA's fault whether they like it or not.

The rules don't differentiate between what is 'technically' a breach and any other sort of breach.  Either a boat breaks a rule or she does not.

The rules (except for rules like rule 2 and rule 69) are about what boats do, not what they think or intend.

Probably best at that point to do a counterclockwise 360 and hope that #OB gets around the mark in the meantime.  Better than a 720 after the mark.

I take it you mean CA gybes away giving OB plenty of room, rather than risk failing to give OB mark-room and taking a turns penalty.

Which poses an interesting additional question...  let's say that happens...  #CA makes a left turn short of the leeward mark, tacks, and then gybes, to give #OB time to get around.  #CA stays inside the circle while doing this donut.  In the meantime, other boats who were astern of #CA when the debacle started are now at the mark.  THOSE boats still owe #CA room, right?

When CA reached the zone clear ahead of the trailing boats, they were required to give CA mark-room (rule 18.2( b ).  When CA passed head to wind by tacking, rule 18.2( b ) ceased to apply (Case 81).  If one of those boats then becomes overlapped with A, rule 18.2( a ) will apply and the boat overlapped inside will be entitled to mark-room.

 So #CA can be yelling at them to give retain his room while he's tacking.

Yelling has no effect on a boat's entitlement to right of way or room.

Until CA passes head to wind, she remains entitled to mark-room, although, with all the tacking and gybing, she may well be sailing outside the mark-room to which she is entitled. 

 Probably producing a giant cluster (hopefully behind him), which sucks, but hopefully at the bar later, everyone would be pissed at #OB, not #CA.

Well, no.  OB has broken no rule.  CA was the boat that went in there at hear own risk (Case 63) and is now floundering around in the zone trying to get out of the mess that she created.

 

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

I can't readily envisage the difficulties you foresee in circumstances other than where the boat required to give mark-room goes inside at the mark.  Can you describe any other scenario?

you answered basically with above and the case law.   one is where a right of way boat, required to give mark-room believes she is giving it and the entitled boat maneuvers in a way where the right of way is unable to continue providing room.   Predominantly inside the zone but before the rounding.  

There can be a lot going on at bouy roundings and you have a reasonable expectation other boats will be have in a certain way.   If the other boat decides to do something different all of a sudden (like the S Bend example above) and you're not able to respond quickly enough to avoid contact.

 but you covered that with case 118, appeal 20, and rule 14 I think 

the confusion I have a little is where a clear astern boat becomes overlapped inside due to the actions of the clear ahead / outside boat.  The cases don't seem to talk about where the overlap is established in the zone.

I guess from all this, I read it as even inside the zone,  the entitled boat must still comply with all the bits of part 2, but is granted room to sail directly to, and to round the mark on the required side "promptly and in a seamanlike manner" .  She can maneuver to close the door prior to the mark as long as she doesn't infringe part 2.   once she has begun her maneuver to actually round the mark, she can do so as fast and hard as she likes including jamming up above proper course, until her stern has cleared the mark.  

Essentially, If at any stage an entitled boat either is heading to the non required side of the mark, away from the mark, or her stern has cleared the mark, then she must ensure she complies with all of part 2 or somehow justify it as legitimate room given the conditions. That is the exemption to part two only exists during the actual rounding if and only if she sailing a reasonable course around the mark given the conditions, and prior if she is likewise sailing a reasonably direct course to the required side of the mark.

 

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21 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

the confusion I have a little is where a clear astern boat becomes overlapped inside due to the actions of the clear ahead / outside boat.  The cases don't seem to talk about where the overlap is established in the zone.

 

 

If you become overlapped inside the zone inside a boat to whom you owe room, it generally doesn't need a case to tell you that you who is at fault in any subsequent incident

It makes no difference that the overlap is due to the actions of the clear ahead boat.

That's kind of what the case  means when it says you can go inside at your own risk.....

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5 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

If you become overlapped inside the zone inside a boat to whom you owe room, it generally doesn't need a case to tell you that you who is at fault in any subsequent incident

It makes no difference that the overlap is due to the actions of the clear ahead boat.

That's kind of what the case  means when it says you can go inside at your own risk.....

I don't think it's that simple.   If you get an overlap inside the zone, and become right of way boat,  the non-right of way boat can only use the room they are entitled to, and must otherwise comply with part 2.  

it has been discussed elsewhere extensively,  you do not become a right of way boat by being granted mark-room, but you are entitled to that mark-room and can be exonerated if mark-room is not given.   As Brass said (emphasis mine)

1 hour ago, Brass said:

Rule 21 exoneration only applies while a boat is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

Unlike the notion of mark-room around a mark, mark-room to sail to a mark can be conceived of as a 'path' bounded on each side.

If OB changed course so that she was no longer sailing to the mark, but sailing to a position other than on the required side of the mark, then she would not be sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled and would not be exonerated if she did not give CA room to keep clear.

If it came to a protest hearing, it would all depend on the exact evidence given by the parties.

The emphasis is mine because I would think in most cases there would be a fine line either way and hence don't be on the end of either stick.  Don't do something unreasonable inside the zone.  Don't assume you have carte blanche to act as you please inside the zone.  Try not to be on the receiving end of it.

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21 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

you answered basically with above and the case law.   one is where a right of way boat, required to give mark-room believes she is giving it and the entitled boat maneuvers in a way where the right of way is unable to continue providing room.   Predominantly inside the zone but before the rounding. 

OK, so, for example, port rounding mark, two boats on port gybe, A, clear ahead reaches the zone followed by B, clear astern.  B then becomes overlapped outside and to leeward of A.  A suddenly bears away and AB acting promptly and doing everything she can is unable to avoid contact.

If A  had been sailing high of the mark, and was changing course to sail to the mark, then she is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

If A was already sailing to the mark, and bore away below that course, then she has sailed outside the mark-room to which she is entitled and will not be exonerated if she does not keep clear of B.

See US Appeal 20..

There can be a lot going on at bouy roundings and you have a reasonable expectation other boats will be have in a certain way.   If the other boat decides to do something different all of a sudden (like the S Bend example above) and you're not able to respond quickly enough to avoid contact.

 but you covered that with case 118, appeal 20, and rule 14 I think 

the confusion I have a little is where a clear astern boat becomes overlapped inside due to the actions of the clear ahead / outside boat.  The cases don't seem to talk about where the overlap is established in the zone.

But rule 18.2( b ) does: 

If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

I guess from all this, I read it as even inside the zone,  the entitled boat must still comply with all the bits of part 2, but is granted room to sail directly to,

Better not to go putting extra words into the rules:  she is entitled to room to sail to the mark.

and to round the mark on the required side "promptly and in a seamanlike manner" .

She is entitled to the space to do that.  Neither this rule nor any other rule requires a boat to actually manoeuvre in a seamanlike manner.  As long as she is in the space she is entitled to, she may manoeuvre in any way she likes.

If she is outside the space she is entitled to, she is subject to the right of way and room rules without exoneration.

She can maneuver to close the door prior to the mark as long as she doesn't infringe part 2.

Maybe think of a swinging door:  she can close the door, that is change course from away from the mark to towards the mark, but she cannot push the door past closed into your face, that is, further change course from towards the mark to a course away from the mark:  that is no longer sailing 'to the mark'.

once she has begun her maneuver to actually round the mark, she can do so as fast and hard as she likes including jamming up above proper course, until her stern has cleared the mark.  

Essentially, If at any stage an entitled boat either is heading to the non required side of the mark, away from the mark, or her stern has cleared the mark, then she must ensure she complies with all of part 2 or somehow justify it as legitimate room given the conditions. That is the exemption to part two only exists during the actual rounding if and only if she sailing a reasonable course around the mark given the conditions, and prior if she is likewise sailing a reasonably direct course to the required side of the mark.

You can say it that way if you like.  Me, I prefer to stick with the words used in the rules.

In your words you are shovelling all sorts of words and ideas in that aren't in the rules:  'stern has cleared the mark', 'ensure', 'legitimate room', 'exemption to part 2', 'actual rounding', 'reasonable', 'reasonably direct'.

Paraphrasing the rules is a risky business.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Brass said:

Better not to go putting extra words into the rules:  she is entitled to room to sail to the mark.

No, but Case 118 does

Case 118—In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to
sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.

 

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12 minutes ago, Spoonie said:
33 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

If you become overlapped inside the zone inside a boat to whom you owe room, it generally doesn't need a case to tell you that you who is at fault in any subsequent incident

It makes no difference that the overlap is due to the actions of the clear ahead boat.

That's kind of what the case  means when it says you can go inside at your own risk.....

I don't think it's that simple.   If you get an overlap inside the zone, and become right of way boat,  the non-right of way boat can only use the room they are entitled to, and must otherwise comply with part 2.  

it has been discussed elsewhere extensively,  you do not become a right of way boat by being granted mark-room, but you are entitled to that mark-room and can be exonerated if mark-room is not given.   As Brass said (emphasis mine)

2 hours ago, Brass said:

Rule 21 exoneration only applies while a boat is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

Unlike the notion of mark-room around a mark, mark-room to sail to a mark can be conceived of as a 'path' bounded on each side.

If OB changed course so that she was no longer sailing to the mark, but sailing to a position other than on the required side of the mark, then she would not be sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled and would not be exonerated if she did not give CA room to keep clear.

If it came to a protest hearing, it would all depend on the exact evidence given by the parties.

The emphasis is mine because I would think in most cases there would be a fine line either way and hence don't be on the end of either stick.  Don't do something unreasonable inside the zone.  Don't assume you have carte blanche to act as you please inside the zone.  Try not to be on the receiving end of it.

Maybe a little bit of conceptual thinking about the rules might help here.

The effect of rule 18.2( b ), which is the rule which applies in the vast majority of cases is to crystallise the rights and entitlements of the boats when the first of them reaches the zone.  The normal situation is that, any boat that has reached the zone, will then be sailing to the mark, or at least changing course so as to be sailing to the mark.

Inside or outside the mark-room to which a boat is entitled is relevant, but in most cases there will be a last point of certainty that a boat is within her mark-room and entitled to rule 21 exoneration:  It will usually take a very strong case to prove otherwise.

If something happens so that rule 18.2( b ) does not apply, rule 18.2( a ) will apply and mark-room entitlements, rather than crystallised, become fluid, and can flip-flop, depending on which boat is overlapped inside.  This is undesirable, but it it the exceptional case, and when it happens we just have to live with the 'unbuffered' flip-flopping.

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5 minutes ago, Spoonie said:
13 minutes ago, Brass said:

Better not to go putting extra words into the rules:  she is entitled to room to sail to the mark.

No, but Case 118 does

Case 118—In the definition Mark-Room, the phrase ‘room to sail to the mark’ means space to
sail promptly in a seamanlike way to a position close to, and on the required side of, the mark.

And it definitely doesn't say 'directly'.

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ok but I'm trying to get some clarity in my understanding.   I read that as you have have to sail from point X to some point Y "close to and on the required side of, the mark"  and that you would otherwise have to justify any deviations away from that course  if you were to claim that you weren't given room to sail to the mark

You can't head to a point on the other side of that mark, and you can't sail unreasonably wide of that point.  correct?

if that is correct, then how is that not directly? 

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Hey @Brass - Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your posts in the rules threads.  Really don't care much either way for this silly point system but having figured out how to "like" something I figured there are not many more deserving than you in this place.  I most always learn something when reading your stuff.  So thanks...

 

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22 hours ago, Spoonie said:

ok but I'm trying to get some clarity in my understanding.

By all means, turn the rules wordings around and around if it helps you to understand them.  What I'm saying is be very careful when you do so, and particularly careful in adding words into the text of the rules.  'Change your words, change your meaning'.

I read that as you have have to sail from point X to some point Y "close to and on the required side of, the mark"

"you" don't "have" to sail anywhere in particular.  The definition defines the space that constitutes mark-room.  It says nothing about the conduct or obligations of any boat .

True, there may be consequences for a mark-room entitled boat that does not sail within that space, but the rules do not require her to do so.

and that you would otherwise have to justify any deviations away from that course  if you were to claim that you weren't given room to sail to the mark

Very likely.

You can't head to a point on the other side of that mark, and you can't sail unreasonably wide of that point.  correct?

In the context of rule 21 exoneration, yes.

if that is correct, then how is that not directly? 

I don't know until I see some careful arguments about whether or not it is 'directly'.

As one example, from time to time, the question arises whether the room to sail to the mark to which a boat is entitled is a narrow corridor from the point she entered the zone to the point close to the mark (Case 75), or whether room to sail to the mark is room from whatever point in the zone at which the issue arises (MR Rapid Response Call 2017/004).  And yes I know that MR Calls are not authoritative in fleet racing and that mark-room in MR is different from fleet racing, but the call illustrates differing possible interpretations.

 

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Looking at that call....

Almost surgical separation in the reasoning when ordinary part two rules apply vs. mark room.

To further test understanding:

image.png.b5cbee2c740695f88577167157e164dd.png

Same scenario as in the diagram from the call, but assume leeward mark. Y would be windward (and instead of luffing, substitute DDW). In that case, Y would not be exonerated when sailing below her proper course. I seem to recall that space needed for a tactical rounding (wide approach then tight turn) is not considered part of mark room.

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22 minutes ago, green03 said:

Looking at that call....

Almost surgical separation in the reasoning when ordinary part two rules apply vs. mark room.

To further test understanding:

image.png.b5cbee2c740695f88577167157e164dd.png

Same scenario as in the diagram from the call, but assume leeward mark. Y would be windward (and instead of luffing, substitute DDW). In that case, Y would not be exonerated when sailing below her proper course. I seem to recall that space needed for a tactical rounding (wide approach then tight turn) is not considered part of mark room.

US Sailing Appeal 20—Mark-room is not defined to allow an inside boat without right of way to sail to a
mark in a tactically desirable manner.

Probably the most important thing about this call is that a boat, starting from a heading that is NOT her proper course, when changing course towards her proper course is steering her proper course from the time she starts changing course towards her eventual proper course.

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On 11/28/2017 at 10:29 PM, Brass said:

Nope.  If you're entitled to mark-room, you can stick it to 'em as hard and as fast as you like.

Surely that is not strictly correct.  Any manoeuvre has to provide room and opportunity to the give-way boat.  If you change course so fast that the other boat had no opportunity to respond, you have not only fouled them but have not avoided a collision if you make contact.

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6 hours ago, random said:

Surely that is not strictly correct.  Any manoeuvre has to provide room and opportunity to the give-way boat.  If you change course so fast that the other boat had no opportunity to respond, you have not only fouled them but have not avoided a collision if you make contact.

The underlined is not true. The requirement to give room to keep clear boats  when maneuvering (specifically changing course or becoming right of way) comes from r15 and R16. If you are taking mark room, you get exonerated for breaking R15 or r16.

you can change course as fast as you like, you don't need to make contact for them to have fouled you.

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6 hours ago, JohnMB said:

The underlined is not true. The requirement to give room to keep clear boats  when maneuvering (specifically changing course or becoming right of way) comes from r15 and R16. If you are taking mark room, you get exonerated for breaking R15 or r16.

you can change course as fast as you like, you don't need to make contact for them to have fouled you.

You cannot change course so fast that the give-way boat does not have an opportunity to keep clear.   See Rule 16.1.

 

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1 hour ago, random said:
8 hours ago, JohnMB said:

The underlined is not true. The requirement to give room to keep clear boats  when maneuvering (specifically changing course or becoming right of way) comes from r15 and R16. If you are taking mark room, you get exonerated for breaking R15 or r16.

you can change course as fast as you like, you don't need to make contact for them to have fouled you.

You cannot change course so fast that the give-way boat does not have an opportunity to keep clear.   See Rule 16.1.

 

Exoneration is limited to incidents with a boat that owes you Mark Room, but otherwise, 16.1 is part of Rule 16...

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12 hours ago, JohnMB said:

The underlined is not true. The requirement to give room to keep clear boats  when maneuvering (specifically changing course or becoming right of way) comes from r15 and R16. If you are taking mark room, you get exonerated for breaking R15 or r16.

you can change course as fast as you like, you don't need to make contact for them to have fouled you.

I'm quite happy to have the discussion here John, no need for the PM mate.  I'm not discussing exhortation, just the potential foul.

You cannot change course as fast as you like. 

16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
So you cannot change course so fast that the other boat has no room to keep clear.  Wiggling about suddenly while taking mark room included.
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1 hour ago, random said:

I'm quite happy to have the discussion here John, no need for the PM mate.  I'm not discussing exhortation, just the potential foul.

You cannot change course as fast as you like. 

16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
So you cannot change course so fast that the other boat has no room to keep clear.  Wiggling about suddenly while taking mark room included.

Why aren't you discussing exoneration? If you get exonerated you can do whatever you want, there is no penalty. It doesn't matter that you broke R16.1.

The whole concept of mark room is that it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them. (provided they do so within the limits imposed by R21)

If you have right of way and are owed mark room then you can go ahead and change course as fast as you like,, you will break R16.1 but (as long as you do so within the mark room you are owed) it doesn't matter.

How do you think keep clear boats get to take advantage of being owed mark room?

(And of course if the boat owed mark room is the keep clear boat R16.1 doesn't even apply to them)

 

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6 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

The whole concept of mark room is that it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them. (provided they do so within the limits imposed by R21)

The boat given mark room must sail proper course, they do not get the right to suddenly change course unexpectedly, they do not get the right to break the rules deliberately and not get penalised.  It applies when they had no option but to break a rule.

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This all seems pretty confusing. Please feel free to correct me, but here's the way I'm seeing it. Buoy room is there to stop an inside boat being prevented from rounding a mark (naturally it has turned into a sought position for the advantages that it holds). The zone is there to prevent things getting too hectic  at the mark, so you can't gain or lose rights at in the zone. 

The situation as I see this thread being about is that a couple of boats have left a significant gap at the mark. Clear astern (CA) has tried to squeeze through without rights gained outside the zone. 

In this case the outside boat would have the right to luff to defend her position giving CA room to keep clear, but not necessarily room to round the mark. CA would have to keep clear, but in the process may hit the mark or go above the mark and re-round.

Either scenario isn't too bad unless its super congested or a gybe mark... Hence "Case 63—At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may,
at her own risk, take advantage of the space."

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15 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

In this case the outside boat would have the right to luff to defend her position giving CA room to keep clear, but not necessarily room to round the mark. CA would have to keep clear, but in the process may hit the mark or go above the mark and re-round.

Giving CA room to keep clear is not a problem for the OB as long as she is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

Rule 21

When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall be exonerated if, in an incident with a boat required to give her that room or mark-room,
(a) she breaks a rule of Section A, rule 15 or rule 16, 

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The issue I have with JohnBM's description is the intent of the rules.  It is not about a RoW boat deliberately breaking rules, or having the right to break rules and not get penalised.  The rules are there in the instance that the Keep-clear boat does not and forces the RoW boat to either hit the mark or make contact with the keep-clear boat.  In those case the RoW boat would be exonerated.

JohnMB is spinning it to claim "it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them".  Further he claims "If you have right of way and are owed mark room then you can go ahead and change course as fast as you like,, you will break R16.1 but (as long as you do so within the mark room you are owed) it doesn't matter. "

I dispute that and would see him in the room if he deliberately and suddenly altered course, off the proper course, not providing me room and opportunity to keep clear under 16.1

 

 

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Rules don't have "intent".

They just have words in the english language, and authorised interpretations in the form of the Cases.

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6 minutes ago, Brass said:

Rules don't have "intent".

They just have words in the english language, and authorised interpretations in the form of the Cases.

Rules do have intent.  The intent of RRS is to allow sailing vessels to compete in close quarters without mishap.  Sometimes rules have unintended consequences ... as opposed to the intended consequences.

Rules relating to  mark room are intended to allow vessels to round marks in competition, safely.

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7 hours ago, random said:

The issue I have with JohnBM's description is the intent of the rules.  It is not about a RoW boat deliberately breaking rules, or having the right to break rules and not get penalised.  The rules are there in the instance that the Keep-clear boat does not and forces the RoW boat to either hit the mark or make contact with the keep-clear boat.  In those case the RoW boat would be exonerated.

JohnMB is spinning it to claim "it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them".  Further he claims "If you have right of way and are owed mark room then you can go ahead and change course as fast as you like,, you will break R16.1 but (as long as you do so within the mark room you are owed) it doesn't matter. "

I dispute that and would see him in the room if he deliberately and suddenly altered course, off the proper course, not providing me room and opportunity to keep clear under 16.1

 

 

If the Right of way boat alters course TO TAKE MARK ROOM SHE IS OWED, then she's just taking mark room, shes not 'deliberately sailing into you' shes typically turning round the mark and you went inside her when you should not have.

in the same way that if a Keep Clear Boat forces a right of way boat to change course TO TAKE MARK ROOM SHE IS OWED she is just taking mark room.

if Port and Starboard are approaching the bottom mark and Port is overlapped inside, when Port forces Starboard to chance course, Port breaks R11, she gets exonerated for breaking R11 because she is taking mark room.

 

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On 11/29/2017 at 7:44 AM, Brass said:

While a mark-room entitled boat will be exonerated for breaches of right of way or room to keep clear rules, she can't 'act like a crazy man' if, in doing so, she makes contact with another boat and breaks rule 14.

JohnMB, the quote above supports my points till now.  There are limits on Mark Room and that is one of them.  If RoW boat acted in an unseaman-like way for whatever reason, then made contact with a give-way boat while not giving them them time to keep clear, they may lose a protest.

That is my only issue with your description of ""it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them".

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37 minutes ago, random said:

JohnMB, the quote above supports my points till now.  There are limits on Mark Room and that is one of them.  If RoW boat acted in an unseaman-like way for whatever reason, then made contact with a give-way boat while not giving them them time to keep clear, they may lose a protest.

That is my only issue with your description of ""it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them".

I don't know if you are deliberately misunderstanding, but I have never said that a boat can 'act like a crazy man' or that a boat can break R14 while taking mark room.

There may also be a misconception about how R18 operates. Basically in any circumstance where a keep clear boat takes mark room from a right of way boat the keep clear boat breaks the relevant rule and  gets  exonerated for it. I.e. there is no consequence for breaking that rule.

Similarly when a right of way boat breaks rule 16.1 (while taking mark room) they get exonerated for it. which means that there is no consequence to them breaking the rule.

R21 is  an explanation of the circumstances under which boats are allowed to break rules without consequence when owed room or mark room, that is what exoneration means.

If this doesn't make sense to you, can you explain why a Port tack boat(P) is allowed to force a starboard tack boat(S) to give her room under R18, while breaking R10 assuming she is owed room by S? What rules apply, what is it that means that P does not have to take a penalty?

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10 hours ago, JohnMB said:

"it allows the boat owed room to break rules and not get penalized for breaking them"

That's what you said.  You have used a great many words trying to wiggle out of what that means.  It is not unconditional intentional breaking rules, they still have to act in a seaman-like manner and any rules broken were what they had to do in the rounding.  Your choice of words is poor and misleading to those reading them, as if it was a Get of of Jail card in Monopoly.

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9 hours ago, random said:

That's what you said.  You have used a great many words trying to wiggle out of what that means.  It is not unconditional intentional breaking rules, they still have to act in a seaman-like manner and any rules broken were what they had to do in the rounding.  Your choice of words is poor and misleading to those reading them, as if it was a Get of of Jail card in Monopoly.

If you want to argue that when taken out of context my statements appear to say something other than what they say feel free, I'm not going to disagree.Please not that throughout this discussion I have tired (apologies if I have failed) to say that the exoneration only works as specified by R21. No get out of jail card, simply exoneration for breaking a rule under specified conditions.

If you want to discuss the way R21 operates and how it affect the operation of R16.1 when a right of way boat does not give a give way boat room to keep clear, while taking mark room. We may have a more fruitful discussion.

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Go right ahead.

Standing-by on channel 16.

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Green03 is on a down voting crime spree.  Hope you feel better now after wielding to only fucking tool you have left.  You must not be able to take part in a friendly conversation.  I don't normally take part in the voting shit fight but I returned the favour in you case.  Enjoy.

image.png.be6ab9bdb149d77c61fd37a428349cf4.png

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On 11/28/2017 at 6:29 AM, Brass said:

Nope.  If you're entitled to mark-room, you can stick it to 'em as hard and as fast as you like.

On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 AM, random said:

Surely that is not strictly correct.  Any manoeuvre has to provide room and opportunity to the give-way boat.  If you change course so fast that the other boat had no opportunity to respond, you have not only fouled them but have not avoided a collision if you make contact.

My contention is that if a right of way boat who is owed mark room by a keep clear boat changes course as a part of taking mark room she is owed, she does not have to give the keep clear boat room  who owes her mark room, room to keep clear.

I believe that this is what R21 says.

As a result you can stick it to em as hard and fast as you like. (I would agree that you shouldn't break R14)

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Yep all good with that description and reasoning. 

Where the may vary is if in taking the room given, the RoW boat deviates substantially and quickly, away from what might be called a seaman-like rounding, away from a proper-course, (deviate to starboard to cause contact or near contact)  in a way that gives the other boat no chance to respond, after 'sufficient' room has been given for the RoW boat to make a normal rounding.  Think about this in the case of a port rounding bottom mark, all still inside the zone.

Reasoning: Rule 21 says "When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, ..." and in this instance the RoW boat was given Room but sailed away from sufficient Room.

Your thoughts?

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26 minutes ago, random said:

Yep all good with that description and reasoning. 

Where the may vary is if in taking the room given, the RoW boat deviates substantially and quickly, away from what might be called a seaman-like rounding, away from a proper-course, (deviate to starboard to cause contact or near contact)  in a way that gives the other boat no chance to respond, after 'sufficient' room has been given for the RoW boat to make a normal rounding.  Think about this in the case of a port rounding bottom mark, all still inside the zone.

Reasoning: Rule 21 says "When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, ..." and in this instance the RoW boat was given Room but sailed away from sufficient Room.

Your thoughts?

I don't think the keep clear boat is allowed to dictate to the RoW boat how the RoW rounds the mark. The RoW can be as unseamanlike as she wants as long as what she does fits the definition of mark room.

The test here is is the RoW taking mark room, not are her actions semanlike.

This is what allows a RoW with mark room to tell a KC boat emphatically 'don't go in there' , because she doesn't have to give the KC boat room to keep clear, as long as she is taking mark room.

(Its worth noting that when the boot is on the other foot, a KC boat taking mark room never has to worry about R16.1, and so never has any requirement to give the RoW room to keep clear, dose have to worry about keeping clear but the same exoneration rules apply.)

 

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Nothing about 'don't go in there'.  I'm talking about the KC boat on the outside, providing plenty of room for the RoW boat to round in a seaman-like manner.  But the RoW boat deviates towards to the KC boat, suddenly without notice.

 

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1 hour ago, random said:

Nothing about 'don't go in there'.  I'm talking about the KC boat on the outside, providing plenty of room for the RoW boat to round in a seaman-like manner.  But the RoW boat deviates towards to the KC boat, suddenly without notice.

 

The question is , "is the RoW boat taking mark room?"

It doesn't matter at all if they deviate towards the KC boat without notice, if that is part of them taking mark room.

The critical test here is whether they are taking mark room or not, in the situation you describe its not possible to tell if they are or not.

 

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Don't know if this has been covered but when you become overlapped inside a boat that you owe mark-room to you must also allow them a proper course (from the point the boats become overlapped) rounding as well as a prompt and seaman like one.

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9 hours ago, JohnMB said:

The question is , "is the RoW boat taking mark room?"

It doesn't matter at all if they deviate towards the KC boat without notice, if that is part of them taking mark room.

The critical test here is whether they are taking mark room or not, in the situation you describe its not possible to tell if they are or not.

 

It is possible.  If the seaman-like course around a mark is to turn to port, but the RoW boat deviates to Starboard when they already have enough Room ... what is that?

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17 hours ago, random said:

Where the may vary is if in taking the room given, the RoW boat deviates substantially and quickly, away from what might be called a seaman-like rounding, away from a proper-course, (deviate to starboard to cause contact or near contact)  in a way that gives the other boat no chance to respond, after 'sufficient' room has been given for the RoW boat to make a normal rounding.  Think about this in the case of a port rounding bottom mark, all still inside the zone.

Reasoning: Rule 21 says "When a boat is sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled, ..." and in this instance the RoW boat was given Room but sailed away from sufficient Room.

Your thoughts?

 

How from the description you gave can I tell if the action you describe is part of taking mark room or not.

I would agree that it probably isn't, but to be sure we need to understand if the boats actions meets the definition of mark room, not if it meets some nebulous ideas of seamanlike.

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You are over-complicating this.

What about turning to starboard instead of port inside the zone, is so hard to understand?

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7 hours ago, random said:

You are over-complicating this.

What about turning to starboard instead of port inside the zone, is so hard to understand?

 

I think you are asking the wrong question.

I can easily devise a scenario that fits your description in which the RoW does not get exonerated.

I can't be bothered trying to check that there are no cases which fit your description where the RoW is taking mark room owed and therefore will be exonerated.

I am proposing that instead of trying to find out if all cases of the type you propose fit the criteria, you just look at the actual criteria for any situation that arises.

 

 

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On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:49 AM, random said:

It is possible.  If the seaman-like course around a mark is to turn to port, but the RoW boat deviates to Starboard when they already have enough Room ... what is that?

That is the right of way boat changing course, potentially with out being constrained by RRS15/16. Assuming other boat does not have mark-room it must keep clear. Once she is away from a mark-room course (but not a proper course, as late inside overlap rights are different from mark-room rights) RRS15/16 turn back on again.

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On 01/12/2017 at 3:11 PM, random said:

The boat given mark room must sail proper course, they do not get the right to suddenly change course unexpectedly, they do not get the right to break the rules deliberately and not get penalised.  It applies when they had no option but to break a rule.

Read from the top.  I've already had this discussion with Brass..

Edit: oh... looks like that's been covered

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