southerncross

Wanted Missing VOR Skipper

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5 hours ago, rgeek said:

Expectations change. Fellas don't hand their daughters over to there wives to be bought up as fodder for cretins anymore.

And in terms of performance remind me where the white night of laddism finished up this last leg?

Irony escapes you. 

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50 minutes ago, glexpress said:

I think who ever filed the rule 69 protest against Witt was just waiting for the opportunity since his remarks before the start of the race.  His head was already in the noose, he just had to say something stupid.

The only thing that upsets me about this is that if this happened on TTOP and the crass remarks were made by women, none of this would be happening.

Agreed, on both points. 

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Time that we get some more info about what the protest is actually about.

Can the jury add persons to the protest?

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1 hour ago, glexpress said:

 

The only thing that upsets me about this is that if this happened on TTOP and the crass remarks were made by women, none of this would be happening.

And that upsets you why?

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1 hour ago, PeterHuston said:

 

So we got to this point in having a bizarre, draconian rule like this all because people want to diminish me, and the likes of Paul Henderson, when we see the problem occurring, and getting worse, because it's better to have blind opposition than to really look at the totality of the circumstances, and think maybe, just maybe, ISAF/WS has a couple of guys who just love the idea of being mortality police.  

 

No, we got to this point because no one sees fit to make it their campaign, meaning real lawsuits with teeth (none of this CAS shit) and a real PR effort.  All we get is you and Hendo taking shots once or twice a year, and everything else goes on in secret.  

I am fairly sure that the only way this changes is through court action.  WS's actions have been illegal in certain countries for so long that they don't even know it, but a nice fat injunction about how they must operate before, say the VOR gets to American shores, might be a good thing.

If you don't think national authorities or courts can do anything about international, sponsored races, read.

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15 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Basic fairness, premise of equality 

Only someone who has never read or understood a history book would pretend there has ever been equality in sailing (or life, or any sport, or...)

That's like the people who complain that black folks getting more aid for their neighborhood's schools than rich white neighborhoods is "reverse racism".  It shows a total lack of understanding of history and how it effects the present.  

There should be NO equality until women have at least some semblance of being able to compete on a level playing field with men.  Get back to me when we're at that point, and we can talk about the poor men who are now being abused by Dee and her team.

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16 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

And that upsets you why?

It's not equality when one group is punished more than the other. 

There are many examples of men getting more severe punishments than women for the same crime in our world.  I work with women who make sexist comments with impunity that would have me fired in an instant.  That's not equality.  

 

11 minutes ago, pudge said:

I can guarantee with near certainty that would have never happened, and after this landmark case will never happen. Take good notes.

I agree it wouldn't happen, hypothetical.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

it would appear case dismissed

source? ^_^

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6 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Only someone who has never read or understood a history book would pretend there has ever been equality in sailing (or life, or any sport, or...)

That's like the people who complain that black folks getting more aid for their neighborhood's schools than rich white neighborhoods is "reverse racism".  It shows a total lack of understanding of history and how it effects the present.  

There should be NO equality until women have at least some semblance of being able to compete on a level playing field with men.  Get back to me when we're at that point, and we can talk about the poor men who are now being abused by Dee and her team.

So define equality. Is anyone stopping them from entering ? Is anyone penalizing them as a class ? Seems the opposite, with special status afforded to incentivize teams. If you (apparently) define equality, with a historical balance, who keeps score, and how far back? 

 

My distant ancestors (1800’s) captained ships out of Baltimore. One was stopped off the West Africa Coast with a cargo of coins and high value trade goods. His distant ancestors (1700’s) owned slaves in VA. Do I owe reparations by your logic? 

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6 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

it would appear case dismissed

Good, the whole thing and the WS /IJ system is a bloody sham. 

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

source? ^_^

Yes I have one thank you, as a journalist I would have thought you would understand that one protects one's sources

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Shang the Boss?

Nah - not the boss, just got sources that's all

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

A good $100k gone up in smoke...could by a few Optis with that.

???

Airfares and IJ costs?? 

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5 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

So define equality. Is anyone stopping them from entering ? Is anyone penalizing them as a class ? Seems the opposite, with special status afforded to incentivize teams. If you (apparently) define equality, with a historical balance, who keeps score, and how far back? 

 

My distant ancestors (1800’s) captained ships out of Baltimore. One was stopped off the West Africa Coast with a cargo of coins and high value trade goods. His distant ancestors (1700’s) owned slaves in VA. Do I owe reparations by your logic? 

Defining equality is uneccessary, because you can look at the effects rather than definition.  If our sport is 7% female even though "no one is stopping them" from entering, is there equality?  If there is, then what is stopping more females from racing?  

For the other thing, if you feel like you owe reparations, have at it. For me, supporting affirmative action and other programs that recognize the historically and continually occurring societal obstacles to equality makes me feel like I am doing my part. Then again my people were being slaughtered until pretty recently too.

 

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4 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Yes I have one thank you, as a journalist I would have thought you would understand that one protects one's sources

 #fakesailingnews

 

:D

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But the whining and bitching about being overwhelmed by PC police will continue. Because every silly claim that's submitted is taken as a momeumental event approaching conviction before the panel even renders its decision. 

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 #fakesailingnews

 

:D

Sorry Clean but you know what I mean

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4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Defining equality is uneccessary, because you can look at the effects rather than definition.  If our sport is 7% female even though "no one is stopping them" from entering, is there equality?  If there is, then what is stopping more females from racing?  

For the other thing, if you feel like you owe reparations, have at it. For me, supporting affirmative action and other programs that recognize the historically and continually occurring societal obstacles to equality makes me feel like I am doing my part. Then again my people were being slaughtered until pretty recently too.

 

What is stopping females is a bloody big question Mr Clean. Both my significant females (daughter and spouse) are well into sailing so perhaps it is the attitude of the males around them. Then again perhaps I am totally wrong, maybe it is they don't like getting cold and wet? Maybe it is.... well I am sure we could fill a page of potential reasons.

Perhaps it would be better to ask those females who DID get into sailing and attempt to replicate the same environment to attract others. I wonder if ISAF or any MNA has ever done that

SS

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1 minute ago, shanghaisailor said:

What is stopping females is a bloody big question Mr Clean. Both my significant females (daughter and spouse) are well into sailing so perhaps it is the attitude of the males around them. Then again perhaps I am totally wrong, maybe it is they don't like getting cold and wet? Maybe it is.... well I am sure we could fill a page of potential reasons.

Perhaps it would be better to ask those females who DID get into sailing and attempt to replicate the same environment to attract others. I wonder if ISAF or any MNA has ever done that

SS

One size fits all, huh? 

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8 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

What is stopping females is a bloody big question Mr Clean. Both my significant females (daughter and spouse) are well into sailing so perhaps it is the attitude of the males around them. Then again perhaps I am totally wrong, maybe it is they don't like getting cold and wet? Maybe it is.... well I am sure we could fill a page of potential reasons.

Perhaps it would be better to ask those females who DID get into sailing and attempt to replicate the same environment to attract others. I wonder if ISAF or any MNA has ever done that

SS

The sport is fragmented in classes, recreational/competitive, national cultures and regions. 

Problem with ISAF trying to set policy is like the same deal with UN trying to manage programs. There are some scenes healthier than others. But the strategy doesn't really address microcasm. 

Most offshore sailors who are women in my gen come from sailing families heavily influenced by dads who kept the girls involved. The girls may take a break here and there in other athletic or professional spheres, but go back because of some skill or exp crossover. It's very different from the more recent Olympic sailing making the switch over once Olympic career is over. 

Something that many also don't think about re inclusion. Ppl are indiviuals. There are women who prefer to sail with those who are stereotypically male. Some do not. There are ppl of various sexual orientations. Some prefer solosailing because crew dynamics are hard. Inclusion works for the benefit of men, women, nonbinary folks. A shotgun not a sniper. 

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16 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Defining equality is uneccessary, because you can look at the effects rather than definition.  If our sport is 7% female even though "no one is stopping them" from entering, is there equality?  If there is, then what is stopping more females from racing?  

For the other thing, if you feel like you owe reparations, have at it. For me, supporting affirmative action and other programs that recognize the historically and continually occurring societal obstacles to equality makes me feel like I am doing my part. Then again my people were being slaughtered until pretty recently too.

 

You assume an equal number of women would want to sail competitively. Based on what ? Do you judge rhythmic dancing and synchronized swimming as unequal  because of low male participation? Your virtue signalling may make you feel you are doing your part, fair nuff, not my issue. Trying to persuade others to your view is fine, even to what borders on editorial discrimination on a private platform. Compelling them by judicial/legislative/regulatory “social engineering” procedures not so much 

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14 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes confirmed now she did so at the Yacht Racing Forum held in Denmark on last weekend in November. I didn't put my "candle" post up earlier until that was confirmed.

No standing yes but the RO is compelled to act upon any third party formal complaint with the first step being an investigation to see if it should be taken further. As shown in this case a member of the public simply viewing onboard video in the middle of the ocean is enough to allow a third party formal complaint to be made and acted upon.

Your fucked.

The RO has put their head in the sand. That would seem to indicate that all we can expect to see and hear is nothing other than the outcome of the WS Jury Hearing later today. 

The Editors FP video which went up a few hours ago is the first time Dawn Riley's involvement in this 69er has been published. I was worried this third party complaint aspect would be buried so hats off to Scott/Clean for publishing it. Others in the media will now no doubt follow. That might also flush Dawn out.

As to mainstream media the 69er was published earlier today in the Australian.

Thanks for explaining things.

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27 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Only someone who has never read or understood a history book would pretend there has ever been equality in sailing (or life, or any sport, or...)

That's like the people who complain that black folks getting more aid for their neighborhood's schools than rich white neighborhoods is "reverse racism".  It shows a total lack of understanding of history and how it effects the present.  

There should be NO equality until women have at least some semblance of being able to compete on a level playing field with men.  Get back to me when we're at that point, and we can talk about the poor men who are now being abused by Dee and her team.

Most of the playing fields in pro ocean racing ain't yet level Clean. Some are fairly level, Mini, Figaro, and given the small number of women entering those races, they are not just competing. Some women are finishing races ahead of many very skilled men. Given level playing fields like this women can and are competing. It's not any inferiority in the fair sex that holds them back. Talking about the professional side of the sport you simply can't afford to put in the learning time to develop the needed skills until you get a sponsor, and perhaps it could just be it is attitudes like yours (typical male sailor?) which are putting sponsors off from choosing women's projects.

Sponsors are free to choose whoever they want and to date sponsors just don't give women the same opportunities as they do for men. I don't see why that should be the case but clearly it is, so we have a chicken and egg situation. It has nothing to do with any ability to "compete on a level playing field".

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Tried to edit to add thist: Something else that occurred to me in Mexico while listening to Jo Aleh - the sports efforts at stimulating future talent can also prevent other individual pathways from occurring. I don't know the dynamics during her trial with Brunel - but she's 31 and trying to make the switch when there's a under-30 rule. Could she have been given a chance under SCA in the last edition? Maybe. She definitely knows how to make a boat go fast, is structured enough to go ahead and build her own miles and obtain qualifications ahead of the VOR. But ultimately? She's a rookie who is over 30 and Brunel brought 2 experienced women instead. Time will tell if this generation of ocean sailors will have careers - there's definitely a potential generation gap coming in the next edition. 


For food for thought. If Nikki Henderson decides she'll like to try her hand at a Vendee - will she be able to find a consistent benefactor sponsor like AT? Is it a surprise that the more successful folks from the English speaking world like Dee, Sam, Ellen are comfortable before a camera & can present themselves well?

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Regarding the subject of equality, sexism and feminism etc.,  I like to quote my 90 yr old mother who had a very Victorian upbringing in the UK.

She says "Son I don't understand these feminists and women's libbers, the "smart" women have had all the power and control all along. They have no need to flaunt it".

Probably not relevant but an interesting perspective from a generation perceived as being the poster children for sexual discrimination.

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I have made a very earnest effort to get many women into sailing.  Alas, we rarely made it on deck.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep plus expert costs, fees accommodation, etc and on both sides. 

Well if it comes to nothing, I’d hope that the party/parties that started this are responsible for the costs involved. 

Very unlikely, I know.  

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

No, we got to this point because no one sees fit to make it their campaign, meaning real lawsuits with teeth (none of this CAS shit) and a real PR effort.  All we get is you and Hendo taking shots once or twice a year, and everything else goes on in secret.  

I am fairly sure that the only way this changes is through court action.  WS's actions have been illegal in certain countries for so long that they don't even know it, but a nice fat injunction about how they must operate before, say the VOR gets to American shores, might be a good thing.

If you don't think national authorities or courts can do anything about international, sponsored races, read.

Well, actually, I agree with you. MNA's mostly don't give a shit about any of this, obviously, but that is, in theory, the way this is supposed to work.  And so it will have to take legal action to get WS out of the regulation and morality police business.

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VOR: Rule 69 protest has been dismissed 'on a number of grounds'

Thursday, December 7, 2017

TOM EHMAN

CAPE TOWN – Nothing official out yet from the Volvo Ocean Race management, but one hears from multiple sources that the Rule 69 protest against Scallywag skipper David Witt (AUS) and ex-navigator Steve Hayles (GBR) has been summarily dismissed after a hearing this afternoon in Cape Town. We are gathering the details, already have many, and will be writing in due course. We will also be going live with a Facebook netcast with one of the parties live via Skype from Cape Town on next week's "Tuesdays with TFE" if not sooner.

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/07/VOR-Rule-69-protest-has-been-dismissed-on-a-number-of-grounds

Not such a landmark case after all?

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/12/07/dismissed/

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 If our sport is 7% female even though "no one is stopping them" from entering, is there equality?  If there is, then what is stopping more females from racing?  

 

 

Probably for the same reason my wife takes ballet lessons and I don't...

Could it be lack of interest? No females in my family have ever shown real interest in sailing (my wife is an active windsurfer, but didn't like racing on any sailboat, much to my dislike). 

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Bouwe the bad boy?

Reportedly, as EDIO Mr Doerr received at least two complaints. We have a copy of the first complaint from a Mr Alex Haworth. We do not know the gentleman nor his nationality. Mr Haworth's complaint named Bouwe Bekking of Team Brunel and Mr Witt, not Mr Hayles. The complaint against Mr Bekking stemmed from this 14 Oct 17 BBC article. The complaint against Mr Witt was for a post to the Scallywag team's Facebook page, long since removed, and for this 4 July 17 article on the VOR website. The complaint was only links to articles with no discussion or argumentation as to why the articles rose to the level of Rule 69 "misconduct." 

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/07/VOR-Rule-69-protest-has-been-dismissed-on-a-number-of-grounds

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Well some sort of line was of drawn in something that resembles sand in a flooding tide...a process developed, tested, hated, condemned, rejected, ignored, forgotten... 

The tether light is off and you are now free to swing your dicks about the cabin.

 

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Ironic

On transparency…

At SHK Scallywag, we’re a complete open book. We don’t hide anything. I think that as the race has got more professional, people have got a bit ahead of themselves. At the end of the day, we’re sailors – we sail the boat. We’re not doctors, or brain surgeons, or curing cancer, we’re just good yachties. I really believe that one of the problems restricting our sport is that some people at the top think they’re Beckham – and we’re not soccer, we’re sailing. If you carry on like you’re a rockstar when you’re just a guy who is good at driving a boat, you won’t appeal to the general public – and I think some of the top-level sailors have lost that connection. In the old days, it was okay just to be you. If we have a high, everyone will see it, if we have a major low, everyone will see it. I’ve spent 20 years wanting to do this race, and if I pretend I’m someone I’m not, that’s a failure in my opinion.  David Witt

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Misconduct charge against sailors dismissed

A misconduct charge against two sailors has been dismissed by the International Jury...

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/10506_Misconduct-charge-against-sailors-dismissed.html

The International Jury has dismissed a charge of misconduct under Rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing against David Witt and Steve Hayles following a complaint to World Sailing.

In its decision, the International Jury wrote: “David Witt and Steve Hayles did not commit misconduct because the video has not caused widespread offence worldwide and has not brought the sport into disrepute.”

Richard Brisius, the President of the Volvo Ocean Race, said: “As race organisers we would like to thank the International Jury for its time and thoughtful handling of this case.”

The complaint, put forward by an outside party not associated with the race, focused on content contained in a video produced from on board Scallywag during Leg 2 of the race.

“I’ve seen the video and I think it’s unfortunate that this resulted in a hearing,” said Dee Caffari, the skipper of Turn the Tide on Plastic. “This case has shown all of us, I think, that the banter and jokes that are an essential part of life on board, don’t always travel well off the water. But to have singled out these guys for a charge when it’s clear that nobody on their boat felt offended in any way seems misguided to me.”

Jordi Neves, Chief Digital Officer of the Volvo Ocean Race added: “As event organisers we are constantly undertaking a review of our and the teams content workflow. We are providing updated guidelines to our communications team, including the on board reporters.

“Our focus now is to evolve and respond in a responsible manner, as we continue our authentic storytelling of the race as the sailors take on the ultimate test of a team in professional sport.”

The teams next take to the water on Friday 8 December at 2pm local time in Cape Town for the In-Port Race, before the start of Leg 3, from Cape Town to Melbourne, Australia on Sunday 10 December.

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“I’ve seen the video and I think it’s unfortunate that this resulted in a hearing,” said Dee Caffari, the skipper of Turn the Tide on Plastic. “This case has shown all of us, I think, that the banter and jokes that are an essential part of life on board, don’t always travel well off the water. But to have singled out these guys for a charge when it’s clear that nobody on their boat felt offended in any way seems misguided to me.”

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

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4 minutes ago, southerncross said:

“Our focus now is to evolve and respond in a responsible manner, as we continue our authentic storytelling of the race as the sailors take on the ultimate test of a team in professional sport.”

Good on ya, VOR.

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WFD Dee, VOR and IJ's

Opinion now formed

Normal Service my now be resumed

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6 hours ago, EvaOdland said:

Evidence of abusive behavior is Witt smooshing his hand around Hayles's crotch getting a good coating of mid-Atlantic man-funk, then sniffing it like a stud sniffs a mare in heat.

In the first picture he is rubbing crotch, immediately the hand goes to his nose, then the satisfied reaction. Clever how he set it all up so he could get his hands stinking with funk.

What a letch.

Also note the weather helm and the boat being driven...Hayles never drops a hand from the wheel and maintains two hands...focused doing his job as the nutbag skipper gropes him. 

5a292e46b59a3_Screenshotfrom2017-12-0614-55-39.png.106f26b198237cc4b96f87ab67686ab0.png5a292e451077a_Screenshotfrom2017-12-0614-56-16.png.c2b5b1d724a0bcf0ee586a01d404cb45.png5a292e435196f_Screenshotfrom2017-12-0614-56-45.png.0e406f3c3aa8e61913a7b4685e98508d.png

 

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Nothing the Jury has said or done can change what we see in the video.  It is out of order.  The only doubt was what WS would do about it.

Witt is still loose canon and a complete dick, what he has done has tarnished the reputation of the sport.  That is not just an opinion, that it the result of endless thrashing about in the press this last week, drawing attention, smoke and fire comes to mind.

This in an odd way may have been helpful to Witty, drawing attention away from his result.  He wuld care less about be called a misogynist, that's a badge of honour to him.  But he doesn't like being second last, back with the wood ducks and the 'girls'.

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4 minutes ago, random said:

It is out of order. 

Out of order for very few apparently.

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3 minutes ago, random said:

Nothing the Jury has said or done can change what we see in the video.  It is out of order.  The only doubt was what WS would do about it.

Witt is still loose canon and a complete dick, what he has done has tarnished the reputation of the sport.  That is not just an opinion, that it the result of endless thrashing about in the press this last week, drawing attention, smoke and fire comes to mind.

This in an odd way may have been helpful to Witty, drawing attention away from his result.  He wuld care less about be called a misogynist, that's a badge of honour to him.  But he doesn't like being second last, back with the wood ducks and the 'girls'.

I am a little disapointed :-/
I had hopes for more... like some shit about how Big Oil, Pharma etc. is involved in this outcome.
You can do better than this Randy 

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Fucking funny how the WS process and those involved in it has been bagged relentlessly here.  But now they will all be good.

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4 minutes ago, random said:

But now they will all be good.

Not necessarily.  Hoping that the absurdity of it might make them revisit the rule.

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3 minutes ago, random said:

Fucking funny how the WS process and those involved in it has been bagged relentlessly here.  But now they will all be good.

Looks like you're the only one with a sandy vag.

The process worked, this time. But that's no guarantee it will work the next time someone gets their panties in a knot over nothing more than a tasteless video. 

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Just now, southerncross said:

Not necessarily.  Hoping that the absurdity of it might make them revisit the rule.

So we have people whining about the lack of female participation, but then claim that only those involved in the sport should be able to protest about the reputation of the sport being potentially damaged.  The focus should be on the opinion of those considering entering the sport, like parents with a few children who may or may not be allowed to go sailing.

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2 minutes ago, random said:

So we have people whining about the lack of female participation,

I think you got the threads mixed up. They're whining about this on the thread you started.

 

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2 minutes ago, random said:

So we have people whining about the lack of female participation, but then claim that only those involved in the sport should be able to protest about the reputation of the sport being potentially damaged.  The focus should be on the opinion of those considering entering the sport, like parents with a few children who may or may not be allowed to go sailing.

Oh right... Because of that video, some parents might change their mind and not let their 6 year old daughter go to sailing school.

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3 minutes ago, southerncross said:

I think you got the threads mixed up. They're whining about this on the thread you started.

 

Short memory and inaccurate posting ... same as it every was

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6 minutes ago, random said:

So we have people whining about the lack of female participation, but then claim that only those involved in the sport should be able to protest about the reputation of the sport being potentially damaged.  The focus should be on the opinion of those considering entering the sport, like parents with a few children who may or may not be allowed to go sailing.

So the standards are set by kids who might someday sail optis or not? Are you going to apply that standard to all sports? Just to be safe, perhaps you and your kids should stick to competitive basket weaving.

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2 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Oh right... Because of that video, some parents might change their mind and not let their 6 year old daughter go to sailing school.

Maybe.  But they would certainly think again about allowing a teenage girl to go ocean racing

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3 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Oh right... Because of that video, some parents might change their mind and not let their 6 year old daughter go to sailing school.

LOL, she's really grasping at straws to justify her fauxrage. And we've already learned it's based solely on not liking the skipper. 

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55 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Reportedly, as EDIO Mr Doerr received at least two complaints. We have a copy of the first complaint from a Mr Alex Haworth. We do not know the gentleman nor his nationality. 

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/sailor-of-the-month/hall-of-fame/?cover_month=September&cover_year=2006

Seahorse magazine sailor of the month 2006 SEPTEMBER Dee Caffari (GBR)

‘Voting for the first-timer rather than the third-timer’ – Alex Haworth

Coincidence?

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1 minute ago, random said:

Maybe.  But they would certainly think again about allowing a teenage girl to go ocean racing

Because the only reason there aren't hundreds of teenage girls ocean racing is because of a video. <roll eyes>

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31 minutes ago, random said:

Nothing the Jury has said or done can change what we see in the video.  It is out of order.  The only doubt was what WS would do about it.

Witt is still loose canon and a complete dick, what he has done has tarnished the reputation of the sport.  That is not just an opinion, that it the result of endless thrashing about in the press this last week, drawing attention, smoke and fire comes to mind.

This in an odd way may have been helpful to Witty, drawing attention away from his result.  He wuld care less about be called a misogynist, that's a badge of honour to him.  But he doesn't like being second last, back with the wood ducks and the 'girls'.

Maybe you need to get over yourself.  

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1 minute ago, random said:

Maybe.  But they would certainly think again about allowing a teenage girl to go ocean racing

OMG idiot!!!!

This video and the behaviour of Witt and Hayles in the video would not all of a sudden make parents wary of letting their teenage daughters go ocean racing with a group of guys. They should already have been protective and wary about allowing it regardless. At the same time just because they tell jokes like that it does not mean they would not treat the teens with the respect expected.

I hope my daughter will be open minded and not have her head messed up by left wing feminist teachers.

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Is Random a human or  a machine? I do not see many of the charateristics of a human being in his posts and he doesn't seem to require sleep.

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5 hours ago, glexpress said:

The only thing that upsets me about this is that if this happened on TTOP and the crass remarks were made by women, none of this would be happening.

anyone offended by the culturally-appropriated rain dance ?  get to it!

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9 minutes ago, hoppy said:

OMG idiot!!!!

This video and the behaviour of Witt and Hayles in the video would not all of a sudden make parents wary of letting their teenage daughters go ocean racing with a group of guys. They should already have been protective and wary about allowing it regardless. At the same time just because they tell jokes like that it does not mean they would not treat the teens with the respect expected.

I hope my daughter will be open minded and not have her head messed up by left wing feminist teachers.

I'll tell you why I think Witt is wrong in this case and would be wary of letting my daughter anywhere near him (not that you asked). The issue to me is not whether he was crass but that he was doing it from a position of power on the boat and that the woman who it was directed at (or near) was below him in the pecking order. Had she been the owner and he the bowman, he can say whatever he wants and she can kick him off the boat if she's offended. In this circumstance, whether she's offended doesn't matter and if she is she's stuck putting up with it for another 1000 miles at least. The power structure is what most sexual harassment issues stem from, not what was said.

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14 minutes ago, hoppy said:

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/sailor-of-the-month/hall-of-fame/?cover_month=September&cover_year=2006

Seahorse magazine sailor of the month 2006 SEPTEMBER Dee Caffari (GBR)

‘Voting for the first-timer rather than the third-timer’ – Alex Haworth

Coincidence?

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/22172
 

Quote

 

Kenmore restarts Shetland Round Britain and Ireland

Well, it has been a rollercoaster of a week, with so many logistical hurdles to overcome as well as the odd mental one. Pete Cumming, my co-skipper, decided to return home earlier in the week. Fortunately, Alex Haworth who used to sail on this boat regularly with the former owner has been able to drop everything and continue the race with me. Alex has also worked closely with me on my Mini campaigns, so we should be a good team.

 

 

https://www.threepeaksyachtrace.co.uk/race-and-tilman-winners
 

Quote

 

Winners of the Daily Telegraph Trophy (Mono-hull), Barmouth Publicity Association Cup (Multi-hull & Handicap) and The Tilman Cup Winners (from 1986)

2012   Kugel Motion                              Reflex 38ft                     David Ewing                  4d 12h 46m

           Tilman: Quickstep                      Contessa 33’                  Alex Haworth, Nick Bubb, Ed Wilton, Sophie Budd,

                                                                                                   Nikki Fleming


 

Possibly the same guy and an excellent candidate as the complainant.

Quite possibly be a UK public servant (from linkedin) 

 

A whining POM complaining about Aussie humour, that would never happen.......

1 hour ago, southerncross said:

 Mr Haworth's complaint named Bouwe Bekking of Team Brunel and Mr Witt, not Mr Hayles.

 

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3 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

You assume an equal number of women would want to sail competitively. Based on what ? Do you judge rhythmic dancing and synchronized swimming as unequal  because of low male participation? Your virtue signalling may make you feel you are doing your part, fair nuff, not my issue. Trying to persuade others to your view is fine, even to what borders on editorial discrimination on a private platform. Compelling them by judicial/legislative/regulatory “social engineering” procedures not so much 

Virtue signaling.  'Cause I'm looking so hard for people to upvote me?  Jesus.  

Racing numbers in the US are pretty close to gender-equality in junior sailing and in college now. Maybe in ten years, that means the numbers move in the right direction for adults too...

But without more males - who control probably 98% of the crewing - openly discussing the situation and the goals of increasing female participation - even if the discussions come by mansplaining virtue-signalers - I am certain there is very little change.  Even with some progressive thinking and discussion and private moves, I still think changing the situation requires some moves by race organizers (who have shown a willingness to require youth sailors, so there is plenty of precedent) or governing authorities to effect real change. 

"Social Engineering" is an entirely bullshit term invented to try to put fear of government in people's heads.  Religion, government laws, taxes, boundaries, education systems - these are all social engineering procedures, and people seem perfectly willing to live under them.

 

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1 minute ago, SOSOS said:

I'll tell you why I think Witt is wrong in this case and would be wary of letting my daughter anywhere near him (not that you asked). The issue to me is not whether he was crass but that he was doing it from a position of power on the boat and that the woman who it was directed at (or near) was below him in the pecking order. Had she been the owner and he the bowman, he can say whatever he wants and she can kick him off the boat if she's offended. In this circumstance, whether she's offended doesn't matter and if she is she's stuck putting up with it for another 1000 miles at least. The power structure is what most sexual harassment issues stem from, not what was said.

Unless you were onboard, you do not know the banter that went on when the camera were not filming. I have no opinion on Witt and a teenage daughter because I do not know what he is like and if she was old enough to go sailing, I'm sure she could make her own mind up whether she wants to listen to his jokes.

 

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12 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

 

anyone offended by the culturally-appropriated rain dance ?  get to it!

I admittedly missed that video.  But having no basis on what happened in the video in question, I'm 100% positive it offends someone.

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19 minutes ago, hoppy said:

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/22172
 

 

https://www.threepeaksyachtrace.co.uk/race-and-tilman-winners
 

Possibly the same guy and an excellent candidate as the complainant.

Quite possibly be a UK public servant (from linkedin) 

 

A whining 67-year old POM complaining about Aussie humour, that would never happen.......

 

fixed.

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Only someone who has never read or understood a history book would pretend there has ever been equality in sailing (or life, or any sport, or...)

That's like the people who complain that black folks getting more aid for their neighborhood's schools than rich white neighborhoods is "reverse racism".  It shows a total lack of understanding of history and how it effects the present.  

There should be NO equality until women have at least some semblance of being able to compete on a level playing field with men.  Get back to me when we're at that point, and we can talk about the poor men who are now being abused by Dee and her team.

In response to "Basic fairness, premise of equality"

> there has ever been equality in sailing (or life, or any sport, or...) 

Indeed and we should try support efforts to reduce this on all fronts.  Out reach programs for sailing seem obvious, affirmative action absolutely, reparations seem due in some cases ... but lets not ignore equal protection under the law, or R69 in this case.  We can never undo an injustice done to a group by committing or accepting injustice against an individual.  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, mrcottonwood said:

but lets not ignore equal protection under the law, or R69 in this case.  We can never undo an injustice done to a group by committing or accepting injustice against an individual.  

 

 

Well stated.

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7 hours ago, mad said:

I wonder how many of the jury are wishing they'd never been dragged into this little debacle, they're decision is going to come under a large amount of scrutiny and possibly set the benchmark for future cases.

That's exactly what happened recently at our club - the jury for hearing a rule 69 all ran away when they realised that this has implications outside of the sport. Deformation can be expensive to defend and even more so to lose. 

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27 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Unless you were onboard, you do not know the banter that went on when the camera were not filming. I have no opinion on Witt and a teenage daughter because I do not know what he is like and if she was old enough to go sailing, I'm sure she could make her own mind up whether she wants to listen to his jokes.

 

This. We simply don't know the context outside the video, in my case I don't know the people involved. Don't know the social dynamics aboard. Not my place to decide who should be offended and who was ott offensive. Jesus,  racing to Bermuda one time the topic of conversation for two days was constipation. We even made up some horrible ditties about it. While posting a video on social media would have been tasteless, it's hardly rule 69 material. Some peep just have nothing better to do than seek perpetual outrage. 

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

On transparency…

At SHK Scallywag, etc

Also in:   http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9601_The-world-according-to-David-Witt.html   

On his first memory of the Volvo Ocean Race…

Actually, a current Volvo Ocean Race legend, Neal McDonald, introduced me to the race back in 1993. It was the first time I’d seen this event, and as a skiff sailor from Australia, I remember being really inspired by it. I realised it was a whole other way of life. I then went on to do part of the race on board Innovation Kvaerner in 1997-98. The fact that I haven’t done the whole thing is one of the attractions of doing this for me. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do, but I’m pretty headstrong and I can’t put up with a lot of the more political, corporate crap that goes on in some campaigns, which is why I haven’t been involved until now. This time, I get to do things my way.

 

Worth a (re)-read methinks. Just an honest, open, ...blunt guy, a sailor who loves the sport.

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6 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

That's exactly what happened recently at our club - the jury for hearing a rule 69 all ran away when they realised that this has implications outside of the sport. Deformation can be expensive to defend and even more so to lose. 

More info, if you would. Curious if you got a chance to ask them why,  "Legalities" often seems a catchphrase, like when IT guys/ governments throw out "security" . 

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47 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I hope my daughter will be open minded and not have her head messed up by left wing feminist teachers.

:face palm: 

:sigh:

:face palm:

omg...

 

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Not a female opinion but nevertheless:

Overall, everyone is very nice on board with me. I came across a good team! But I do not think there is a bad team. On the first leg, I was on Team Sun Hung Kai / Scallywag skippered by David Witt, an Australian boat that, a priori, was not obvious. After a week with them, I did not want to leave!

Jérémy Lecaudey is a cameraman-editor specializing in outdoor sports, especially on the world tour of Kitesurfing and skiing. He prepared mainly with the Dongfeng teams and Dee Caffari's Turn The Tide on Plastic .

http://voileactu.blog.lemonde.fr/2017/12/07/a-bord-de-dongfeng-nom-de-code-obr/

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2 hours ago, southerncross said:

Bouwe the bad boy?

Reportedly, as EDIO Mr Doerr received at least two complaints. We have a copy of the first complaint from a Mr Alex Haworth. We do not know the gentleman nor his nationality. Mr Haworth's complaint named Bouwe Bekking of Team Brunel and Mr Witt, not Mr Hayles. The complaint against Mr Bekking stemmed from this 14 Oct 17 BBC article. The complaint against Mr Witt was for a post to the Scallywag team's Facebook page, long since removed, and for this 4 July 17 article on the VOR website. The complaint was only links to articles with no discussion or argumentation as to why the articles rose to the level of Rule 69 "misconduct." 

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/07/VOR-Rule-69-protest-has-been-dismissed-on-a-number-of-grounds

Just read the BBC link that was the so-called basis for the Bouwe Bekking complaint. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sailing/41510271

This is a fucking ridiculous situation for the sport and it’s ruling body to be in if this is warranted for every single complaint. 

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7 minutes ago, mad said:

This is a fucking ridiculous situation for the sport and it’s ruling body to be in if this is warranted for every single complaint.

One way to turn it on it's ridiculous head would be to flood the WS with a ridiculous number of unsubstantiated complaints.

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

Just read the BBC link that was the so-called basis for the Bouwe Bekking complaint. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sailing/41510271

This is a fucking ridiculous situation for the sport and it’s ruling body to be in if this is warranted for every single complaint. 

This entire thread has been filled with overreactions as ridiculous as the Anglo-American focused culture war nonsense that probably contributed to the Haworth. And also a over hysterical response to the jury meeting as if we're creating some ad hoc tribunal court in the Hague to deal with war criminals. Expenses, random numbers, blah blah blah.

 

Keep making complaints. No one will turn down an opportunity to write off expenses to visit Auckland, Hong Kong in the coming legs. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RKoch said:

LOL, she's really grasping at straws to justify her fauxrage. And we've already learned it's based solely on not liking the skipper. 

She??

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Just read the BBC link that was the so-called basis for the Bouwe Bekking complaint. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sailing/41510271

This is a fucking ridiculous situation for the sport and it’s ruling body to be in if this is warranted for every single complaint. 

Nice find Mad. 

Quote

"We have two fantastic ladies on board and we can be really happy with the team we have put together," he said. "Everybody is now just the same."

Ehler and Lush were part of the first all-female crew for 25 years to win a leg of the race when Team SCA won the eighth leg of the 2014-15 event.

And the former has been appointed "boat captain" by Bekking - a role which means she is responsible for all technical aspects of the boat, as well as the safety equipment.

Bekking believes the changes are generally positive as they "get more girls interested in the sport", but says teams were not consulted beforehand.

"We weren't asked about the rule changes but you just have to live with their decision and take it on the chin," he said.

"For Volvo, they have to sell cars and trucks. Around half of the world's population is female so if you have more females in the race, they have more attention for their products. 

"It's a pure marketing thing. Will it work out? We will see."

Race director Phil Lawrence said: "We're determined to maintain our female presence in the race.

Bouwe handled the situation right--sorry he got caught up in the dragnet of the 69er. 

Sheesh--the skill set needed to race at this level. Keeping a team together through social and southern storms. Toughest test of a team indeed. 

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