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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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TJSoCal

Rules Question - Touching a Finishing Mark & Rule 28.2

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Scenario: A boat approaching the finish line on starboard tack goes head-to-wind to shoot the line at the pin. RC sounds horn indicating the boat has finished. The boat falls off onto starboard again, drifts into the pin (touches it) and then passes to weather of the pin.

It's understood that the boat broke Rule 31 while still racing (after finishing but before having cleared the finishing marks) and so must perform a one-turn penalty and re-finish.

Question is, can the boat make a penalty turn by looping around the pin (assuming she keeps clear of any other boats while taking the penalty turn) and then recross the finish line from the course side, or must she also "unwind the string" by passing through the finish line in the reverse direction before finishing?

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Yes she can loop the pin.

In doing so she breaks no rule and complies with the definition of finish.

Very common in Match Racing.

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The scenario above is an upwind finish. Match races finish downwind and exonerations do not require both a tack and a gybe done in the same direction. Unlike match racing the fleet racing exoneration must include one gybe and tack in the same direction before re-crossing the finish line. 

 

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So if you've finished ie. your bow breaks the plane to borrow a football term, and it looks like you're gonna drift onto the mark, are you free to fire up your motor (or paddle) to avoid it since you've finished?

And if in the original example you don't make that last tack and therefore drift back onto the course side of the start line, are you still finished? To be honest I can't find anything that requires you to get your whole boat over the line...

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12 minutes ago, overdraft said:

So if you've finished ie. your bow breaks the plane to borrow a football term, and it looks like you're gonna drift onto the mark, are you free to fire up your motor (or paddle) to avoid it since you've finished?

And if in the original example you don't make that last tack and therefore drift back onto the course side of the start line, are you still finished? To be honest I can't find anything that requires you to get your whole boat over the line...

No. You are still racing until you clear the line. 

You'll have it down after you read the definition of finish, racing and RRS 31 and 44.2:

Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she (a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2, (b) corrects an error under rule 28.2 made at the line, or (c) continues to sail the course.

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

31 TOUCHING A MARK While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing.

44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.

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2 hours ago, overdraft said:

So if you've finished ie. your bow breaks the plane to borrow a football term, and it looks like you're gonna drift onto the mark, are you free to fire up your motor (or paddle) to avoid it since you've finished?

And if in the original example you don't make that last tack and therefore drift back onto the course side of the start line, are you still finished? To be honest I can't find anything that requires you to get your whole boat over the line...

There is nothing that requires you to get your whole boat over the line,  this can be very useful in drifting conditions etc. as soon as you get your horn turn and go.

On the other hand you are still racing until you have cleared the line and marks

Quote

A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment

so no firing up the motor or paddling. until you are clear.

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A boat is not required to cross the finish line completely so you can stick your bow over the line then turn back and clear the line, then start your engine.  Right?

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ya, I don't see that the rules are very precise on this... you're finished when any part of the boat crosses the line, you're racing until you've cleared the line, and you can't touch the finishing mark until after you've finished...BUT I don't see where it defines how you "clear the finish line"... So it seems to me that when your bow crosses the finish line you're finished, and if you drift backwards you've cleared the finish line and are now no longer racing and you can power up and/or hit the finish line mark with impunity... ???

I get that that's not likely the intent of the rules but if they want us to play by a rule book...

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28.1 says "After finishing she need not cross the finishing line completely." and finish is defined term: "A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side."  Seems like the intent.  Nose across the line, turn and go back and you are clear.  I can't see any other way to interpret 28.1.

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9 hours ago, overdraft said:

ya, I don't see that the rules are very precise on this... you're finished when any part of the boat crosses the line, you're racing until you've cleared the line, and you can't touch the finishing mark until after you've finished...BUT I don't see where it defines how you "clear the finish line"... So it seems to me that when your bow crosses the finish line you're finished, and if you drift backwards you've cleared the finish line and are now no longer racing and you can power up and/or hit the finish line mark with impunity... ???

I get that that's not likely the intent of the rules but if they want us to play by a rule book...

 

If you manage to hit the mark, how can you have cleared the finish line and marks ?

Its not specific about how far you have to go, but if your only way to avoid hitting the mark is to paddle or turn the engine on I think its hard to argue that you cleared the line and marks.

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the issue is that the DIRECTION isn't specified... you've fulfilled the requirements of sailing the course when you finish, ie. bow hits the line, but then if you drift backwards until no part of the boat intersects the line have you not 'cleared' the finish line?

Yes there's been some thread drift here because the original question is how do you exonerate yourself if after finishing but before 'clearing' the finish line you hit the mark, but what I'm talking about here is, is there an alternate plan if you don't think you'll clear the finish line in the usual direction without fouling the mark?

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Well, 28.1 pretty clearly says you do not need to cross the line completely, just need to cross it with any part of your boat and then get clear of the line.

But you have not finished if after finishing you continue to sail the course.  What the hell does that mean?

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I think if you drift back away from the finish line after finishing and then sail away from it you've cleared the finish line and are no longer racing. Case 127, "A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course."

And regarding my original Rule 28.2 question, it looks like Case 106 applies--as I read it you can pass the finish marks wherever you like without worrying about unwinding the string, as long as eventually you cross between the finishing marks from the direction of the previous mark.

Case 108 also provides some interesting examples of combining a mark rounding with a penalty turn while still complying with Rule 28.

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so the consensus is that a 'dip' finish is OK?  That'd be useful to know for those evenings where the wind is dropping and the tide is running against you and the bar is calling...

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1 hour ago, overdraft said:

so the consensus is that a 'dip' finish is OK?  That'd be useful to know for those evenings where the wind is dropping and the tide is running against you and the bar is calling...

I do it frequently, its totally OK.

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

And regarding my original Rule 28.2 question, it looks like Case 106 applies--as I read it you can pass the finish marks wherever you like without worrying about unwinding the string, as long as eventually you cross between the finishing marks from the direction of the previous mark.

 

Be careful about 'dipping' the finish line. In this diagram, Yellow has not finished correctly, as the string, when pulled tight would lie outside the finish mark.

John

 

dipping the finish line.jpg

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16 minutes ago, John Ball said:

Be careful about 'dipping' the finish line. In this diagram, Yellow has not finished correctly, as the string, when pulled tight would lie outside the finish mark.

John

 

dipping the finish line.jpg

Um, No...

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Case 106:

Quote

When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark. She complies with rule 28.2 even if the string also passes one mark of the finishing line or gate on the non-required side.

I would say that since the finishing mark "2" is not a rounding mark, it wouldn't "hook the string" between positions 2 & 3 so Yellow finished correctly between positions 4 & 5.

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Yellow might be protested under rule 28.2 (or any other rule) but they finished correctly and the PC should find that they did not break rule 28.2, a conclusion supported by Case 106.

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There is a big difference between my diagram and Case 106. In case 106 the line pulled tight lies on the wrong and right sides of the marks. In my diagram, the line pulled tight lies outside the marks.

John

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6 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Yellow might be protested under rule 28.2 (or any other rule) but they finished correctly and the PC should find that they did not break rule 28.2, a conclusion supported by Case 106.

I would say that 106 doesn't support this. In 106 the string drawn taught passes around the outside of one finish mark and then between both marks from the correct direction.

In Johns example the string only passes outside mark 2 and through the finish in the wrong direction. It never passes between the marks in the correct direction. The boat has finished but not complied with 28.2

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I think John's diagram meets the wording of Case 106 - the string passes one mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side. If the case also required that the string pass both marks on the non-required side (as in the Case 106 diagram) I would think they'd have said so. So I believe that if the boat in Case 106 had chosen to maneuver as in John's diagram rather than looping around the other end of the line, they would still have been found to have complied with 28.2.

My opinion is that the finishing mark does not catch the string (it's not a rounding mark, so it's not required to touch), so it's drawn taut from the previous mark to where it crosses the finish line in the correct direction.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I read the case.

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34 minutes ago, John Ball said:

Ok, I'll say it differently - Yellow has finished but may be protested under R 28.2 for failing to sail the course.

John

Um, No...

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Finishing marks do not, I believe, have a required side. You finish by crossing a line, which might be between two marks, or two boats, or trees on each riverbank or whatever.

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From the definition on finish: "A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side.", so direction does matter, you have to finish from the course side.

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51 minutes ago, JimC said:

Finishing marks do not, I believe, have a required side. You finish by crossing a line, which might be between two marks, or two boats, or trees on each riverbank or whatever.

I was wondering about that.

it was actually case 106 which made me question it.

Doesn't the fact that you have to pass 'between' the marks give them a required side?

though I guess its possible it would depend on the definition of the finish in the SI's

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56 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I think John's diagram meets the wording of Case 106 - the string passes one mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side. If the case also required that the string pass both marks on the non-required side (as in the Case 106 diagram) I would think they'd have said so. So I believe that if the boat in Case 106 had chosen to maneuver as in John's diagram rather than looping around the other end of the line, they would still have been found to have complied with 28.2.

My opinion is that the finishing mark does not catch the string (it's not a rounding mark, so it's not required to touch), so it's drawn taut from the previous mark to where it crosses the finish line in the correct direction.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I read the case.

Would that work the same way for a gate?  or put another way, why would the finish mark not 'catch' the string?

In case 106 it comments that the sting passes one mark on the non required side before passing it on the required side, does that not imply that the mark 'caught' the string on the first pass?

 

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16 hours ago, overdraft said:

ya, I don't see that the rules are very precise on this... you're finished when any part of the boat crosses the line, you're racing until you've cleared the line, and you can't touch the finishing mark until after you've finished...BUT I don't see where it defines how you "clear the finish line"

Then you didn't look very far.

Definition, Racing
A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course.

... So it seems to me that when your bow crosses the finish line you're finished,

Yes, unless, after that she takes a penalty, corrects a rule 28 error or continues to sail the course (Definitions:  Finish).

and if you drift backwards you've cleared the finish line

Yes

and are now no longer racing

Yes

and you can power up

Yes

and/or hit the finish line mark with impunity... ???

May depend how big and hard the finishing mark is.

I get that that's not likely the intent of the rules but if they want us to play by a rule book...

Rules don't have 'intent'.  They are what they are and they say what they say.

But why do you think it's a problem?

 

7 hours ago, JohnMB said:

If you manage to hit the mark, how can you have cleared the finish line and marks ?

Presumably because when you put you motor in gear you then steer into the mark.

5 hours ago, overdraft said:

if you drift backwards until no part of the boat intersects the line have you not 'cleared' the finish line?

Not exactly.  The test in Case 127 is 'no mark is influencing her choice of course'

 

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

Would that work the same way for a gate?  or put another way, why would the finish mark not 'catch' the string?

In case 106 it comments that the sting passes one mark on the non required side before passing it on the required side, does that not imply that the mark 'caught' the string on the first pass?

 

I believe that it would work the same for a gate, as I read the case.

I think it's because the string only "touches" rounding marks, and the finish marks (and gates, I guess) are not rounding marks.

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5 hours ago, allene222 said:

Well, 28.1 pretty clearly says you do not need to cross the line completely, just need to cross it with any part of your boat and then get clear of the line.

But you have not finished if after finishing you continue to sail the course.  What the hell does that mean?

It means that where the finishing line lies across one of the legs of the course (for example a 'Gold Cup' course, that a boat that sails across the finishing line, but still has more legs to sail has not 'finished' at that time.

Another example is at a  finishing line set to leeward of the leeward mark, where a boat rounding the leeward mark with the next leg to windward, has a spinnaker hang-up and continues downwind and accidentally passes through the finishing line.

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think John's diagram meets the wording of Case 106 - the string passes one mark of the finishing line on the non-required side before passing it on the required side. If the case also required that the string pass both marks on the non-required side (as in the Case 106 diagram) I would think they'd have said so. So I believe that if the boat in Case 106 had chosen to maneuver as in John's diagram rather than looping around the other end of the line, they would still have been found to have complied with 28.2.

My opinion is that the finishing mark does not catch the string (it's not a rounding mark, so it's not required to touch), so it's drawn taut from the previous mark to where it crosses the finish line in the correct direction.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I read the case.

I think you may have relied on the headnote to Case 106, in which case you have overlooked the important word 'also'.

The pertinent, and quite clear bit of Case 106 is

Yes. When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark.

In the diagram upthread, the string, when drawn taut does NOT pass between the finishing marks and the boat has not complied with rule 28.2.

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1 hour ago, Gone Drinking said:

No go read the pertinent case - 128

image.png.23f6ed9446b2900a7200fbe551729fc6.png

Cool,

Case 128  confirms that John Balls reading is correct. The boat finishes but has not complied with R28.2.

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3 minutes ago, Brass said:

I think you may have relied on the headnote to Case 106, in which case you have overlooked the important word 'also'.

The pertinent, and quite clear bit of Case 160 is

Yes. When the course requires boats to pass between two marks at a finishing line or at a gate, a boat complies with rule 28.2 if the string representing her track when drawn taut passes between the marks from the direction of the previous mark.

In the diagram upthread, the string, when drawn taut does NOT pass between the finishing marks and the boat has not complied with rule 28.2.

Yeah, I started doubting myself when I saw the same diagram as John's in Case 128 cited as a violation of 28.2

So I guess if you pass a finishing mark on the wrong side you either have to unwind or go around the other finish mark the wrong way and then finish (the case 106 diagram).

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20 minutes ago, Brass said:

Presumably because when you put you motor in gear you then steer into the mark.

Well there is that I guess :).

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:
2 hours ago, JimC said:

Finishing marks do not, I believe, have a required side. You finish by crossing a line, which might be between two marks, or two boats, or trees on each riverbank or whatever.

I was wondering about that.

it was actually case 106 which made me question it.

Doesn't the fact that you have to pass 'between' the marks give them a required side?

though I guess its possible it would depend on the definition of the finish in the SI's

A finishing line can be defined by means other than marks on the water.

But if it is defined by marks, on the water, between which boats are required to pass, then each of these has a required side, remembering that 'required side' is no longer defined in the rules, although it is used in various cases.

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Case 90 is actually a more relevant case to this one, covering the situation where a line is recrossed.

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1 hour ago, Brass said:

ya, I don't see that the rules are very precise on this... you're finished when any part of the boat crosses the line, you're racing until you've cleared the line, and you can't touch the finishing mark until after you've finished...BUT I don't see where it defines how you "clear the finish line"

Then you didn't look very far.

Definition, Racing
A boat clears the finishing line and marks when no part of her hull, crew or equipment is on the line, and no mark is influencing her choice of course.

Well sure, I didn't look past the rule book, but hey, wouldn't you think that should be good enough? :huh:

Quick question... how are you finding this part of the definition and no mark is influencing her choice of course. because the definition I find on sailing.org is

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Also, the link to Case 127 goes to a website called racingrulesofsailing.org which has a disclaimer that says it's not affiliated with sailing.org so I'm wondering how much weight that has given that the rule book only endorses it's own "Cases and Calls"....

and PS. this is mostly because I like a good technical argument, not that I'm doubting you Brass... I appreciate your responses to all these rule questions!

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6 minutes ago, overdraft said:

Well sure, I didn't look past the rule book, but hey, wouldn't you think that should be good enough? :huh:

Quick question... how are you finding this part of the definition and no mark is influencing her choice of course. because the definition I find on sailing.org is

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Also, the link to Case 127 goes to a website called racingrulesofsailing.org which has a disclaimer that says it's not affiliated with sailing.org so I'm wondering how much weight that has given that the rule book only endorses it's own "Cases and Calls"....

and PS. this is mostly because I like a good technical argument, not that I'm doubting you Brass... I appreciate your responses to all these rule questions!

The Case Book is published by World Sailing, most recent version for the 2017-2020 RRS was published in January 2017 and can be downloaded from sailing.org website.

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TJ, hopefully I'm not a total goof... I'm well aware of the case book, but the sailing.org case book does not contain the Case 127 that Brass linked me to.. nor does the rule book itself contain the definition quoted in post #30 so I'm just curious about the sources....

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18 minutes ago, overdraft said:

TJ, hopefully I'm not a total goof... I'm well aware of the case book, but the sailing.org case book does not contain the Case 127 that Brass linked me to.. nor does the rule book itself contain the definition quoted in post #30 so I'm just curious about the sources....

it did when I linked to it.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/20172020WorldSailingCaseBookv1.1-[22915].pdf

page 239

the definition in post 30 is from the case not the rule book.

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3 hours ago, overdraft said:

TJ, hopefully I'm not a total goof... I'm well aware of the case book, but the sailing.org case book does not contain the Case 127 that Brass linked me to.. nor does the rule book itself contain the definition quoted in post #30 so I'm just curious about the sources....

Yeah, I think that link that went to racingrulesofsailing.org is off, but the link in the post above should take you to the real book which includes the definition of clearing the finish line that's been cited. 

The Case Book will definitely add to you understanding of the rules, worth a browse. 

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3 hours ago, TJSoCal said:
7 hours ago, overdraft said:

TJ, hopefully I'm not a total goof... I'm well aware of the case book, but the sailing.org case book does not contain the Case 127 that Brass linked me to.. nor does the rule book itself contain the definition quoted in post #30 so I'm just curious about the sources....

Yeah, I think that link that went to racingrulesofsailing.org is off, but the link in the post above should take you to the real book which includes the definition of clearing the finish line that's been cited. 

The Case Book will definitely add to you understanding of the rules, worth a browse. 

OK guys.

What differences do you observe between the text provided (for Case 127 or elsewhere) in the racingrulesofsailing.org  website and the Case Book on the WS website?

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no difference now that I found the case! I did a search on the official book but my browser search function was unable to find it... as soon as TJ gave me a page number I was able to find it and it's identical to the original link. mystery solved... (somewhat... I still don't know why my browser search failed!)

dear world sailing, it's poor rule construction to have a defined term with the definition in two places... If finishing includes the wording in the casebook which is given official standing by the Cases and Calls statement on page 6, then please include that wording in the definition, rather than sending the reader to two places to assemble the full meaning.

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