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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
duncan (the other one)

VOR Leg 4 Melbourne to Honkers

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Police crap, police don't have any jurisdiction.

One of the press links posted here in the last 24 hours mentioned a police investigation however perhaps just insert "authorities" instead.

Has it been confirmed which body is conducting the investigation? I've seen speculation but nothing concrete so far.

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^^^^ The Witt is dilussional. 2 legs on, the second to Auckland the most brutal in terms of navigation by a country mile, he might have worked that all out by then. His Libby platitudes are what they are.

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2 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

One of the press links posted here in the last 24 hours mentioned a police investigation however perhaps just insert "authorities" instead.

Has it been confirmed which body is conducting the investigation? I've seen speculation but nothing concrete so far.

I'll keep repeating my self then.

 

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40 minutes ago, matttnz said:

That guy was deceased when they winched him up. That’s why his face is shrouded, you don’t do that with someone who needs to breathe. 

The spin on the ride up was a giveaway as well. 

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Time for some more positive posts in this thread

 

26951999_1663629993702151_32396198228331

I think we know where they are celebrating now.

26815262_10154994562521949_5036382346095

 

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3 hours ago, Elisa said:

You’re going a bit fast here for me. A husband, or a son has not come home this morning. An innocent life was lost here, because of some sportsevent a few people with too much money on their hands want to hold in this place.

Surely that needs a few more minutes of thought before we jump to the ‘lessons learned, get a new ship and carry on’ mode. 

Sure, a balance is needed between rushing to condemn the organization and the sport vs moving on.   A full inquest is definitely needed and many in our sport need to read the results with open mind and learn from them. In no way do I mean to belittle the traffic consequences to those involved. Even those on vestas will carry this with them and concern need to be extended even to those that are physically ok.  

We have an intrinsic contradiction in our sport that we are required to proceed at a safe speed while racing.  This applies as much to a club racer in recreational waters as in this instance. So lessons can be learnt from this by all.

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8 minutes ago, gregwilkins said:

Sure, a balance is needed between rushing to condemn the organization and the sport vs moving on.   A full inquest is definitely needed and many in our sport need to read the results with open mind and learn from them. In no way do I mean to belittle the traffic consequences to those involved. Even those on vestas will carry this with them and concern need to be extended even to those that are physically ok.  

We have an intrinsic contradiction in our sport that we are required to proceed at a safe speed while racing.  This applies as much to a club racer in recreational waters as in this instance. So lessons can be learnt from this by all.

Traffic density.

Ill elaborate. Did they ran over the first fishing vessel not seen or did they go flying past a handful before they struck one. 

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3 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

HK Marine Police, might be involved and they are part of the HK Police and can certainly detain  (any) foreign Captains.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/world/asia/36-confirmed-dead-in-hong-kong-ferry-collision.html

 

1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

( yes plenty of miles in megaychts and commercial vessels)

Sail can you let us in on the secret on how them superyachts get the pillows so fluffy?

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Sail can you let us in on the secret on how them superyachts get the pillows so fluffy?

the best goose down money can buy

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7 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

the best goose down money can buy

How do you avoid them rich and precious superyachty clients of yours getting goose bumps with those pillows?

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

I'm always serious...and erudite and very handsome.

Well, two outta three ain’t bad

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

How do you avoid them rich and precious superyachty clients of yours getting goose bumps with those pillows?

perfect temp and humidity 24 7

lots of wine?

My boss part owned a modelling agency, your gunna want photos arent you...

 

lucky its a cayman boat otherwise the headline might have said something about america sinks chinese boat

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What a tragedy.  My heart goes out to the family of the deceased and also to the Vestas Team.  This will forever be a memory that would like to forget.

In regards to the investigation, it wouldn't surprise me that VOR has video of the collision.  If not the direct hit, then everything after and add to that an OBR that would have been taking video/photos to document.  The hows will eventually come out and I would not want to speculate any further on repercussions till all facts are revealed.

The damage looks pretty bad, but potentially fixable.  if they were able to get Vestas patched to spec I would hope they would be on the line.  Tragedy happens, but it is a long way from now til then and short of Charlie pulling the plug himself, I feel it would be good for the crew to, in a way, get back on the horse.  I hope they do.

Years ago a fan watching a NASCAR race died when a car slammed into a fence spinning and throwing parts enough to kill.  Granted, this fisherman was not a spectator, but as NASCAR changed some things to reduce the risk to non-participants, VOR could consider in the future not racing into busy, make the extremely busy harbors.  Perhaps a finish line off the coast, guide boats that can keep up and warn other boats off.  A sailboat going 20+ at night in a place swarming with anything that can float sets up the scene that just played out.  I don't feel VOR or Volvo should pull out, but instead, make adjustments and relay that to the public so it shows they do care about safety, but that not everything can be known before hand.

Eventually, boats will be repaired, hearts healed, lessons learned, and legal actions take place.  I'll still be there come start day and still wanting to cheer teams on.  Till then, I'll wait to see how much news comes out and pray for those affected. 

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7 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

perfect temp and humidity 24 7

lots of wine?

Got it..thanks.

8 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

My boss part owned a modelling agency, your gunna want photos arent you

Nah..got plenty of real ones...though some look to be over inflated though.

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When the Volvo came to Singapore they finished the race way out in a shipping lane and forced them to have guys with local boat license skipper them to the dock.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Oh Bucc how I've missed you

Don't worry jack, I'm not staying.  I'm hear only to express my support for those impacted by this event.

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Did I miss something or are we jumping to conclusions? The damage to Vestas doesn't look like a boat that hit another. It looks like it got hit.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

Thats called inspecting, and those guys are from the boat yard, not police.

 Inspecting? With duct tape all around? Tape which has been laid down by the only people who’s allowed to repair the boat?

That, sir, is the start of a repair.

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On a more serious note.

For the RO it would have been an absolute shit fight today trying to workout who has investigatory jurisdiction between HK's Marine Accident Investigation Section (MAIS) and the Maritime Safety Administration of the People's Republic of China (CMSA) in Beijing. MAIS would have been demanding that they have it, which is horseshit, but maybe they went quiet as to even poor blind Freddy they had no jurisdiction.

That alone explains why not a lot of info is coming out of the RO on this incident.

I hate to say it as I'm not a great fan of one legged Turner, but his experience in this part of the world would have been very helpful to the RO and Vestas Team today.

I suspect a race friendly arrangement has now been nailed down today and details released tomorrow with no loss of face occuring on the island and in Beijing.

 

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7 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Don't worry jack, I'm not staying.  I'm hear only to express my support for those impacted by this event.

are you kidding ?

17 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

What a tragedy.  My heart goes out to the family of the deceased and also to the Vestas Team.  This will forever be a memory that would like to forget.

In regards to the investigation, it wouldn't surprise me that VOR has video of the collision.  If not the direct hit, then everything after and add to that an OBR that would have been taking video/photos to document.  The hows will eventually come out and I would not want to speculate any further on repercussions till all facts are revealed.

The damage looks pretty bad, but potentially fixable.  if they were able to get Vestas patched to spec I would hope they would be on the line.  Tragedy happens, but it is a long way from now til then and short of Charlie pulling the plug himself, I feel it would be good for the crew to, in a way, get back on the horse.  I hope they do.

Years ago a fan watching a NASCAR race died when a car slammed into a fence spinning and throwing parts enough to kill.  Granted, this fisherman was not a spectator, but as NASCAR changed some things to reduce the risk to non-participants, VOR could consider in the future not racing into busy, make the extremely busy harbors.  Perhaps a finish line off the coast, guide boats that can keep up and warn other boats off.  A sailboat going 20+ at night in a place swarming with anything that can float sets up the scene that just played out.  I don't feel VOR or Volvo should pull out, but instead, make adjustments and relay that to the public so it shows they do care about safety, but that not everything can be known before hand.

Eventually, boats will be repaired, hearts healed, lessons learned, and legal actions take place.  I'll still be there come start day and still wanting to cheer teams on.  Till then, I'll wait to see how much news comes out and pray for those affected. 

 

This sounds just fake empathy and a lot of blahblah to say "The show must go on"
Maybe cultural ...

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17 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Don't worry jack, I'm not staying.  I'm hear only to express my support for those impacted by this event.

Thank goodness..what you wrote made me throw up in my mouth.

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

On a more serious note.

For the RO it would have been an absolute shit fight today trying to workout who has investigatory jurisdiction between HK's Marine Accident Investigation Section (MAIS) and the Maritime Safety Administration of the People's Republic of China (CMSA) in Beijing. MAIS would have been demanding that they have it, which is horseshit, but maybe they went quiet.

That alone explains why not a lot of info is coming out of the RO on this incident.

I hate to say it as I'm not a great fan of one legged Turner, but his experience in this part of the world would have been very helpful to the RO and Vestas Team today.

I suspect a race friendly arrangement has now been nailed down today and details released tomorrow with no loss of face occuring on the island and in Beijing.

 

The RO will be a defendant as well

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7 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

The RO will be a defendant as well

Defendant of what and by whom and what jurisdiction?

Fuck me.. go back to your duck feather pillow fluffing, this conversation is above your paygrade.

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10 minutes ago, manin said:

 Inspecting? With duct tape all around? Tape which has been laid down by the only people who’s allowed to repair the boat?

That, sir, is the start of a repair.

Do you have any clue how this is going to be repaired? I suspect not. The boat is honeycomb cored pre-preg carbon. You don't bog it up and spray over it. As alluded to above, Persico will be starting to lay up a new section of hull as we speak, which will take at least a week to make. It there is damage to a stringer things will get significantly harder.  Inspection of the hull is needed to workout the area of new section to fabricate - which might be what the lines around the hole are denoting. OTOH, there will without doubt some forensic examination of the boat which will feed into an assessment of exactly what occurred. Strike angle, depth of penetration/overlap of hulls, and so on. There is no reason that the pictures are not of the beginning of that examination. 

The repair of the boat will be overseen by the VOR boatyard team. Subject to HK's labour laws (of which I have no clue.)  Certainly the Boatyard already has in place the needed permissions and arraignments to perform maintenance on he fleet.  They probably have most of the people and supplies needed - but they don't have the replacement section of hull. 

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17 minutes ago, gesail1 said:

Did I miss something or are we jumping to conclusions? The damage to Vestas doesn't look like a boat that hit another. It looks like it got hit.

That seems like a difficult conclusion to reach without seeing the other boat and a full investigation. There is an awful lot of paint missing from the underside of the bow on Vestas. I imagine the bottom of the hull could be damaged on a boat that is planing at 20kts with its bow out of the water and rides up over another boat. It could also just as easily be the glancing blow of a steel fishing boat coming right at you in the dark with little or no lights on. Can't say based on current info. 

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33 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Let's have a lynching. No need for evidence, make up our own mind and throw a rope over a branch.

No one knows who is at fault either? both? apportionment?

SS

No lynching needed, bad enough if players in sports kill them selves but in the end they chose to be on that boat (or eg in formula1 racing machine) but if innocent bystanders are killed by the game, it opposes some real and serious questions. Just to be sure, I don’t pretend at all to have any answers. 

Innocent means innocent to me regardless of outcome of legal proceedings or wether this boat had AIS or appropriate lights. Racing boats are meant to sail as fast as they can. That is what is expected from them. Do others in those waters need to be prepared for these offshore racing boats passing by? Can we expect that? I truly don’t know. 

In pitch dark in a crowded area with bamboo boatfishing happening, a non-racing vessel might have lowered speed just to be more prudent. So yes, one of those hard questions, should there be any offshore racing here? I truly don’t know. 

Everybody loses, the fishermen, Vestas crew, VOR, Volvo, fans and public. 

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11 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Defendant of what and by whom and what jurisdiction?

Fuck me.. go back to your duck feather pillow fluffing, this conversation is above your paygrade.

boat was in an organised race, a race organised by who, they will get some questions for sure

MAIS will be looking for the cause and how to prevent in the future ( same as UK MAIB who dont apportion blame) Marine Police do the rest

What do you think happens if there is a death after an accident in the middle of nowhere, nobody has jurisdiction so there is no investigation, geez, do you even have a passport?

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24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Defendant of what and by whom and what jurisdiction?

Fuck me.. go back to your duck feather pillow fluffing, this conversation is above your paygrade.

Defendant if the idea of the “VOR has created a situation of risk and has not taken enough measures to guarantee safe racing” flies.

 

The first edition of the minitransat did not allow skippers to enter the harbour of Antigua at night. They had to moor and wait for the dawn to break. Also, the skippers reached a gentleman agreement upon which none of then would pass the reef barrier at night as it was deemed an unnecessary risk.

That would have been a reasonable decision.

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7 minutes ago, Elisa said:

 

Innocent means innocent to me regardless of outcome of legal proceedings or wether this boat had AIS or appropriate lights.

Interesting definition of innocent.

The benefit of that outlook on life is that it probably gets you excused from jury duty

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14 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Do you have any clue how this is going to be repaired? I suspect not. The boat is honeycomb cored pre-preg carbon. You don't bog it up and spray over it. As alluded to above, Persico will be starting to lay up a new section of hull as we speak, which will take at least a week to make. It there is damage to a stringer things will get significantly harder.  Inspection of the hull is needed to workout the area of new section to fabricate - which might be what the lines around the hole are denoting. OTOH, there will without doubt some forensic examination of the boat which will feed into an assessment of exactly what occurred. Strike angle, depth of penetration/overlap of hulls, and so on. There is no reason that the pictures are not of the beginning of that examination. 

The repair of the boat will be overseen by the VOR boatyard team. Subject to HK's labour laws (of which I have no clue.)  Certainly the Boatyard already has in place the needed permissions and arraignments to perform maintenance on he fleet.  They probably have most of the people and supplies needed - but they don't have the replacement section of hull. 

They are manipulating the area, and for sure they don’t look like Marine surveyors. It is not a survey anymore.

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8 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Do you have any clue how this is going to be repaired? I suspect not. The boat is honeycomb cored pre-preg carbon. You don't bog it up and spray over it. As alluded to above, Persico will be starting to lay up a new section of hull as we speak, which will take at least a week to make. It there is damage to a stringer things will get significantly harder.  Inspection of the hull is needed to workout the area of new section to fabricate - which might be what the lines around the hole are denoting. OTOH, there will without doubt some forensic examination of the boat which will feed into an assessment of exactly what occurred. Strike angle, depth of penetration/overlap of hulls, and so on. There is no reason that the pictures are not of the beginning of that examination. 

The repair of the boat will be overseen by the VOR boatyard team. Subject to HK's labour laws (of which I have no clue.)  Certainly the Boatyard already has in place the needed permissions and arraignments to perform maintenance on he fleet.  They probably have most of the people and supplies needed - but they don't have the replacement section of hull. 

Not bad Francis..but please just once put in a swear word.

I'm no high tech boat builder but the puncture looks insitu repairable. If not an angle grinder on SCA sitting in Portugal solves that and in HK in 48 hours though the Broker will be pissed.

Hull aside doing 20k and coming to a sudden stop on top of a fishing boat I would be more worried about the rig and hull connections. I'm assuming the Boat Yard has a spare rig there? If so then only a hull integrity connection issue.

My guess is they could have Vestas going to Auckland if the planets aligned.

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I was asleep when this happened, and woke to a backlog of messages that have taken rather a while to crawl through.

So... Why the heck is everyone treating this like a criminal/murder investigation. It is an accident. You don't detain people involved in accidents. You might interview them asap to get an early understanding whilst things are fresh in people's minds, but you don't put them in gaol. That requires you are charging them with a crime. The fact that there have been a few very highly publicised marine accidents where the skipper has been found criminally negligent does not mean every marine accident is a crime with the prospect of people spending time in the Big House. And the trial takes place months even years after the event. 

But any accident involving a death gets treated very seriously, and very well defined and developed protocols swing into place. As has been noted more than a few times, HK is no third world hick town. The only complicating factor is (quite clearly) the relationship with the mainland. But the legal and administrative formalities will be well understood. Given HK's history the parallels with the UK's way of managing such things is likely to be significant. Accident Investigation, Coroner, with the coroner maybe making recommendations for prosecution. 

I would guess that the key question for those involved will be one of criminal negligence (or whatever the equivalent is.) But this is a very long way down the track. If the skipper of V11 at the time was drunk it might be a different matter. But negligence, and especially criminal negligence, is a pretty high bar. Nobody here knows the details, indeed nobody on the planet does ATM. There is a big difference between a really unfortunate accident where someone dies, and an accident where someone has been behaving in a negligent manner to the point where prosecution is warranted. In the US we observe a culture where there is always someone at fault. Mostly it seems fuelled by a litigious society and no-win no-fee ambulance chasing lawyers. In the civilised world we don't go looking for someone to dump on every time something goes wrong. And we don't assume ab-initio that there is someone to blame when accidents occur.

 

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35 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

The RO will be a defendant as well

 

29 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Defendant of what and by whom and what jurisdiction?

Fuck me.. go back to your duck feather pillow fluffing, this conversation is above your paygrade.

 

14 minutes ago, manin said:

Defendant if the idea of the “VOR has created a situation of risk and has not taken enough measures to guarantee safe racing” flies.

 

The first edition of the minitransat did not allow skippers to enter the harbour of Antigua at night. They had to moor and wait for the dawn to break. Also, the skippers reached a gentleman agreement upon which none of then would pass the reef barrier as it was deemed an unnecessary danger.

That would have been a reasonable decision.

Fuck another Turnip..where do you fools come from? Is there some secret place where you only stick your useless heads out of if there is a calamity? 

Who feeds you lot?

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

Fuck another Turnip..where do you fools come from? Is there some secret place where you only stick your useless heads out of if there is a calamity? 

Who feeds you lot?

Hey, calm down and lower your fucking tone.

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38 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

The RO will be a defendant as well

 

34 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Defendant of what and by whom and what jurisdiction?

 

19 minutes ago, manin said:

Defendant if the idea of the “VOR has created a situation of risk and has not taken enough measures to guarantee safe racing” flies.

 

The first edition of the minitransat did not allow skippers to enter the harbour of Antigua at night. They had to moor and wait for the dawn to break. Also, the skippers reached a gentleman agreement upon which none of then would pass the reef barrier at night as it was deemed an unnecessary risk.

That would have been a reasonable decision.

Are you a drug dealer dipping into the cookie jar?

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Not bad Francis..but please just once put in a swear word.

I'm no high tech boat builder but the puncture looks insitu repairable. If not an angle grinder on SCA sitting in Portugal solves that and in HK in 48 hours though the Broker will be pissed.

Hull aside doing 20k and coming to a sudden stop on top of a fishing boat I would be more worried about the rig and hull connections. I'm assuming the Boat Yard has a spare rig there? If so then only a hull integrity connection issue.

My guess is they could have Vestas going to Auckland if the planets aligned.

It had occurred to me that SCA might well become an unwilling doner. The damage looks no worse than Sanya and of much the same scope (although bigger) than Telefonica Blue. 

Good point about the shock loads. I suspect the honycomb structure acts as a pretty good energy absorber. So long as they didn't stop hard at a ring frame. Which now that I come to think of it may account for the sharp end to the gash - in which case the repair might be a bit more effort. I would guess the rig's load cells would have recorded the impact, so they should have data on the loads.

I would agree. With a bit of luck and everything going their way it could be done ready for the next leg. Which would be pretty fucking good.*

*happy? 

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17 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I was asleep when this happened, and woke to a backlog of messages that have taken rather a while to crawl through.

So... Why the heck is everyone treating this like a criminal/murder investigation. It is an accident. You don't detain people involved in accidents. You might interview them asap to get an early understanding whilst things are fresh in people's minds, but you don't put them in gaol. That requires you are charging them with a crime. The fact that there have been a few very highly publicised marine accidents where the skipper has been found criminally negligent does not mean every marine accident is a crime with the prospect of people spending time in the Big House. And the trail takes place months even years after the event. 

But any accident involving a death gets treated very seriously, and very well defined and developed protocols swing into place. As has been noted more than a few times, HK is no third world hick town. The only complicating factor is (quite clearly) the relationship with the mainland. But the legal and administrative formalities will be well understood. Given HK's history the parallels with the UK's way of managing such things is likely to be significant. Accident Investigation, Coroner, with the coroner maybe making recommendations for prosecution. 

I would guess that the key question for those involved will be one of criminal negligence (or whatever the equivalent is.) But this is a very long way down the track. If the skipper of V11 at the time was drunk it might be a different matter. But negligence, and especially criminal negligence, is a pretty high bar. Nobody here knows the details, indeed nobody on the planet does ATM. There is a big difference between a really unfortunate accident where someone dies, and an accident where someone has been behaving in a negligent manner to the point where prosecution is warranted. In the US we observe a culture where there is always someone at fault. Mostly it seems fuelled by a litigious society and no-win no-fee ambulance chasing lawyers. In the civilised world we don't go looking for someone to dump on every time something goes wrong. And we don't assume ab-initio that there is someone to blame when accidents occur.

 

the captain of the US warship that was hit by a container ship in Japan was asleep in his cabin, he has just been charged with negligent homicide.

The captain ( and other crew) are always detained by the authorities when they are a foreigner, try this in the US the law says you must be locked up no bail, that can go on for years still a judge says you can go home as no case to answer.

Lots of breaches of the geneva convention...

 

Jack_Sparrow has no clue how the world works and keeps proving it, can you stop I'm convinced.

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4 minutes ago, manin said:

Hey, calm down and lower your fucking tone.

Lower my fuckin tone after you have a kick. How about you lower your fuckin pants and let that pet goat in your backyard loose a day earlier than planned.

Fuckin Turnips.

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8 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

In the US we observe a culture where there is always someone at fault. Mostly it seems fuelled by a litigious society and no-win no-fee ambulance chasing lawyers. In the civilised world we don't go looking for someone to dump on every time something goes wrong. And we don't assume ab-initio that there is someone to blame when accidents occur.

 

^^^ this. 

Some countries even have no fault systems for accidents to avoid this very situation. Keep it out of the civil courts (where opinion counts for too much) and in the criminal one where scientific reason and a decent bar of proof is required. 

Sometimes bad shit just happens. 

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2 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

the captain of the US warship that was hit by a container ship in Japan was asleep in his cabin, he has just been charged with negligent homicide.

The captain is always detained by the authorities when they are a foreigner, try this in the US the law says you must be locked up no bail.

And this is part of the reason why...

on 1 count, he needs to have a decent watch system running on his vessel. 

But... if it was someone else’s F up and he’s asleep...  Does this imply that a skipper must be awake at all times when a vessel is underway? That sounds safe...

And just because something is done in the US does not mean that the rest of the world thinks it’s a good idea or remotely sane. That country proved that well enough 12 months ago...

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34 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Lots of breaches of the geneva convention...

Jack_Sparrow has no clue how the world works and keeps proving it, can you stop I'm convinced.

Where is your world? Do you have pics of the incident you can send us earthlings?

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7 minutes ago, matttnz said:

And this is part of the reason why...

on 1 count, he needs to have a decent watch system running on his vessel. 

But... if it was someone else’s F up and he’s asleep...  Does this imply that a skipper must be awake at all times when a vessel is underway? That sounds safe...

And just because something is done in the US does not mean that the rest of the world thinks it’s a good idea or remotely sane. That country proved that well enough 12 months ago...

plenty of countries do it, its just in the USA you cant get bail which is not a law victimising seafarers in particular.
In recent years there has been some high profile cases in several countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_South_Korea_oil_spill

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28 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

but you don't put them in gaol.

Geez Francis, I know you are a bit old school but c'mon. :D

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5 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

plenty of countries do it, its just in the USA you cant get bail which is not a law victimising seafarers in particular.
In recent years there has been some high profile cases in several countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_South_Korea_oil_spill

You are the gift which keeps on giving... your arse must be the size of Texas to keep pulling this stuff out?

Add this...Cher's daughter is not gay

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19 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

the captain of the US warship that was hit by a container ship in Japan was asleep in his cabin, he has just been charged with negligent homicide.

The navy has a particular view of things, and it is a given that a naval captain is responsible no matter what. If he was asleep in bed it was still his fault that someone in charge was negligent. It is his responsibility to ensure a competent manning of every component of his command. In this case the person in control of the ship was negligent, so the navy charges the captain for neglecting his responsibilities as captain of the ship. Responsibilities including ensuring that everyone on his ship was always up to the task - and not themselves negligent. This is not how the civilian world works. A civilian captain would be charged if he was demonstrably negligent, not as an automatic action.

Nor does it have any relevance to the V11 accident. We are a very long way from any form of negligence at all, let alone negligent homicide. 

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11 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 

The navy has a particular view of things, and it is a given that a naval captain is responsible no matter what. If he was asleep in bed it was still his fault that someone in charge was negligent. It is his responsibility to ensure a competent manning of every component of his command. In this case the person in control of the ship was negligent, so the navy charges the captain for neglecting his responsibilities as captain of the ship. Responsibilities including ensuring that everyone on his ship was always up to the task - and not themselves negligent. This is not how the civilian world works. A civilian captain would be charged if he was demonstrably negligent, not as an automatic action.

Nor does it have any relevance to the V11 accident. We are a very long way from any form of negligence at all, let alone negligent homicide. 

you missed my point, this is exactly how it works with foreign boats and crew, Captain may never be charged but they get detained till the investigation says they can go. Has zero basis in anybodies law but they keep doing it.
There was a shocker in the USA a few years ago where a German Capt and ChEng go locked up before they left the dock on a crusie ship as the USCG found a problem with the oil book from previous crew. Both had never worked on the vessel, after huge complaints from the German Gov they let them be confined in a hotel rather than prison and after years, the judge said sorry you can go home.
Forget what you know about the law, its all different at sea.
 

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Not sure the damage to the boat is as bad as it looks especially if some of the impact was deflected by rising up and over the other boat.  Time will tell. Making no call.

The damage to the crew, however, is another thing.  These things have a way getting into your marrow.  

The boat will be 100% long before the crew ever is.

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Judging by the hole, my first guess would be that the fishing boat was the one doing the hitting.Having said that it's a strange shape who knows what srange vessel this was.Also it's quite a soft place on a racing boat 

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On 7-1-2018 at 10:09 AM, LeoV said:

Better be good, ordered one from Scotland, McLaren books, there are not many around.

no-day-too-long-an-hydrographers-tale-ri

Shangaisailor,

got after two weeks, its a good read.

Quote from the book The bogus surveyor, repeated by Richie;

Everything, however, shown in such a survey should be correct, and it is only in its omissions that it should be imperfect.

 

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100% guarantee no maritime lawyers here this is painful to read. Can we argue about something we know even less, the Racing Rules?

there was an upthread argument about whether you have to finish to get redress. Answer, read the rules, you can get redress if the protest committee believes that your "score or place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by" followed by a list of conditions. RET is a score, which is significantly worse than 2nd finishing place.

62.1(b) is one of the conditions, "injury or physical damage because of the action ... of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear". I race inshore dinghies during the daytime so I don't know the ins and outs of the colregs - if you are nominally the right of way boat but you're failing your obligations (lights, say) do you become the keep clear boat or just in violation of the particular reg about lights?

62.1(c) is another one, the help one, "giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1".

So, what made Vestas retire, doing the right and seamanlike thing and standing by after a collision, or the giant hole in the hull? I'm a one man keyboard jury right now so I'll find the facts to the be the latter. So Vestas can only request redress under 62.1(b) and I don't know how to find the facts there.

Here's another rules question I've never thought about: can a protest committee or jury find their own facts about who was the keep clear boat or are they bound (or encouraged to follow) the decision of marine authorities?

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25 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Geez Francis, I know you are a bit old school but c'mon. :D

Southern (and I won't call you Runkle  anymore as your much taller and have hair) Francisely is caught between a rock and a hard place for potential punishment for a potential maritime infringement. 

He is suggesting the big house or even a quartering which I think they do these days using two Range Rovers in England?

He will be distressed to hear that In this part of the world all they get is a Chinese Burn for running over a fishing boat.

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27 minutes ago, Grubbie said:

Judging by the hole, my first guess would be that the fishing boat was the one doing the hitting.Having said that it's a strange shape who knows what srange vessel this was.Also it's quite a soft place on a racing boat 

At first sight I would agree, the hole looks symmetric and just like V11 was hit.  But, on further reflection here is a lot wrong with this assessment.  There is only one angle of view. We don't actually have much in the way of 3D information. Moreover, the hole is also consistent with V11 hitting the stern of one of the common small fishing vessels as pictured a few pages earlier in the thread. Indeed the manner in which the hole is neatly punched with sharp edges and you can see a section of the hull deeper in the hole are consistent with hitting a solid square object. 

We don't know, and can't tell from the limited information we have.  But we do know that V11 was sailing at about 20 knots before the impact. I very much doubt these old fishing boats are capable of much more than a fraction of that. 

A simple forensic examination of the damage will reveal a great deal. It will certainly reveal exactly from what direction the impact occurred and how it progressed. Even without recovering the sunken fishing boat they will be able to determine pretty much exactly what happened. Add to that all the logs of position, velocity and loads taken second by second on the boat, and you have a forensic analyser's dream data set.  

We don't have any of this data. To second guess it is pretty futile.

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Just now, Francis Vaughan said:

Moreover, the hole is also consistent with V11 hitting the stern of one of the common small fishing vessels as pictured a few pages earlier in the thread

Agree.

1 minute ago, Francis Vaughan said:

To second guess it is pretty futile.

It is.

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15 minutes ago, cremedelameme said:

100% guarantee no maritime lawyers here this is painful to read. Can we argue about something we know even less, the Racing Rules?

there was an upthread argument about whether you have to finish to get redress. Answer, read the rules, you can get redress if the protest committee believes that your "score or place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by" followed by a list of conditions. RET is a score, which is significantly worse than 2nd finishing place.

62.1(b) is one of the conditions, "injury or physical damage because of the action ... of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear". I race inshore dinghies during the daytime so I don't know the ins and outs of the colregs - if you are nominally the right of way boat but you're failing your obligations (lights, say) do you become the keep clear boat or just in violation of the particular reg about lights?

62.1(c) is another one, the help one, "giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1".

So, what made Vestas retire, doing the right and seamanlike thing and standing by after a collision, or the giant hole in the hull? I'm a one man keyboard jury right now so I'll find the facts to the be the latter. So Vestas can only request redress under 62.1(b) and I don't know how to find the facts there.

Here's another rules question I've never thought about: can a protest committee or jury find their own facts about who was the keep clear boat or are they bound (or encouraged to follow) the decision of marine authorities?

You should sell that I haven't quite caught up post to a Pharmaceutical company as a sleep deprivation cure. 

You will make a fortune.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

He is suggesting the big house or even a quartering which I think they do these days using two Range Rovers in England?

Only if you are upper class. Common rubbish get done with a couple of mk 2 landies.  

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15 minutes ago, cremedelameme said:

100% guarantee no maritime lawyers here this is painful to read. Can we argue about something we know even less, the Racing Rules?

there was an upthread argument about whether you have to finish to get redress. Answer, read the rules, you can get redress if the protest committee believes that your "score or place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by" followed by a list of conditions. RET is a score, which is significantly worse than 2nd finishing place.

62.1(b) is one of the conditions, "injury or physical damage because of the action ... of a vessel not racing that was required to keep clear". I race inshore dinghies during the daytime so I don't know the ins and outs of the colregs - if you are nominally the right of way boat but you're failing your obligations (lights, say) do you become the keep clear boat or just in violation of the particular reg about lights?

62.1(c) is another one, the help one, "giving help (except to herself or her crew) in compliance with rule 1.1".

So, what made Vestas retire, doing the right and seamanlike thing and standing by after a collision, or the giant hole in the hull? I'm a one man keyboard jury right now so I'll find the facts to the be the latter. So Vestas can only request redress under 62.1(b) and I don't know how to find the facts there.

Here's another rules question I've never thought about: can a protest committee or jury find their own facts about who was the keep clear boat or are they bound (or encouraged to follow) the decision of marine authorities?

Maritime authority...they will make the ruling .

safe speed,

proper lookout  

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For Vestas to be doing the hitting,it would be at fine angle of impact. Looks like big flared bows of skiff style boat punched a hole.

Fishing boat could have been anchored for all I know.Im sure we'll get to the truth.

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Why didn't Dong Feng respond to the emergency call? As the closest boat, they have the responsibility to administer assistance if possible regardless of any direction from RC. The tracker showed Dong Feng sail by Vestas' position about an hour after the incident with no slowing or alteration of course. AZKO wasn't directed to assist for several hours after the incident and even after Dong Feng was in the area of the finish line. DSQ Dong Feng RRS Rule 1.1.

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Lots to learn about the incident to be sure.  But looking forward there are some predictable questions to uncover.

does vestas want to continue,

if so can they repair the boat and in time for what leg?  (Heck do they ship Ava to Auckland and go from there?) 

will they be allowed to or will an investigation keep the crew local during that process.

and then all the race related stuff lie will they get redress and second place?  Etc

going to be interesting to watch

biggest question long term is how do they balance getting to high growth sponsor markets in Asia without racing through dangerous crowded waters....   finish off some island out of the way, but start from in the port in daylight?  Dunno

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This whole mess sucks. 

I fully respect the crew of Vestas, in this iteration and as Alvimedica they have proven themselves as totally competent and responsible seafarers. Thousands of miles without incident, when others were capsizing, running aground, breaking shit, dropping sails overboard and getting injured, Enright and Towhill competed and arrived without drama or needing repairs.  I would not jump to the conclusion that they are negligent bozos, in fact of all the crews in this race, I would assume the opposite. This must have been an extraordinary situation.  The damage to Vestas 11th Hour Racing was not trivial, yet they remained on station and assisted in the rescue. That's a pretty big hole in the bow of a boat and hanging around for several hours with a seaway running takes some courage.  A bad situation, but I think Mark and the boys acquitted themselves with honor, which is the best you can hope for.

The  Chinese captain was probably completely baffled by a sailing vessel closing on him at 18 to 20 knots, probably from an unexpected direction.  Most of the traffic around busy ports is in outbound and inbound lanes and is comparatively slow moving. This provides a great deal of predictability. A racing sailboat will come from a different angle and will change heading randomly ( at least to a non sailing observer.). A Volvo 65 is more like a flying saucer than any boat he has probably ever seen, it closed on him faster than he could believe and ran right over him. If he had gear out, his maneuverability was probably limited.   "Here I am fishing where I usually fish, the way I usually fish. I'm just trying to do my fucking job and this space ship shows up out of nowhere , runs right the fuck over us,  sinks my boat and kills one of my crew. What the fuck?" 

Hindsight is 20:20.  But some of this could have been thought through. What value does an after midnight in port finish provide? During daylight it would be nice, but at 0dark30?  My thought is that you should " finish racing" at the point where ships take on pilots, and have the race boats proceed to the dock under port control. You could require that they arrive in the order of their rank so all the spectacle is preserved...... but you don't have sportsmen competing where others are just going about their day : which is kind of like playing a football game in a crowded mall at Christmas time.

SHC

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4 minutes ago, rolltak said:

Why didn't Dong Feng respond to the emergency call? 

Covered ages ago. tl;dr - DF asked if they should help and were told they were not needed. They did respond.

Why the change when AK came past?  Who knows? Clearly the situation had changed for the worse, but we are currently none the wiser as to why.

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4 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Covered ages ago. tl;dr - DF asked if they should help and were told they were not needed. They did respond.

Why the change when AK came past?  Who knows? Clearly the situation had changed for the worse, but we are currently none the wiser as to why.

So it was an error by VOR RC? Not sending the closest boat to assist and then later sending another boat? 

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12 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

This whole mess sucks. 

I fully respect the crew of Vestas, in this iteration and as Alvimedica they have proven themselves as totally competent and responsible seafarers. Thousands of miles without incident, when others were capsizing, running aground, breaking shit, dropping sails overboard and getting injured, Enright and Towhill competed and arrived without drama or needing repairs.  I would not jump to the conclusion that they are negligent bozos, in fact of all the crews in this race, I would assume the opposite. This must have been an extraordinary situation.  The damage to Vestas 11th Hour Racing was not trivial, yet they remained on station and assisted in the rescue. That's a pretty big hole in the bow of a boat and hanging around for several hours with a seaway running takes some courage.  A bad situation, but I think Mark and the boys acquitted themselves with honor, which is the best you can hope for.

The  Chinese captain was probably completely baffled by a sailing vessel closing on him at 18 to 20 knots, probably from an unexpected direction.  Most of the traffic around busy ports is in outbound and inbound lanes and is comparatively slow moving. This provides a great deal of predictability. A racing sailboat will come from a different angle and will change heading randomly ( at least to a non sailing observer.). A Volvo 65 is more like a flying saucer than any boat he has probably ever seen, it closed on him faster than he could believe and ran right over him. If he had gear out, his maneuverability was probably limited.   "Here I am fishing where I usually fish, the way I usually fish. I'm just trying to do my fucking job and this space ship shows up out of nowhere , runs right the fuck over us,  sinks my boat and kills one of my crew. What the fuck?" 

Hindsight is 20:20.  But some of this could have been thought through. What value does an after midnight in port finish provide? During daylight it would be nice, but at 0dark30?  My thought is that you should " finish racing" at the point where ships take on pilots, and have the race boats proceed to the dock under port control. You could require that they arrive in the order of their rank so all the spectacle is preserved...... but you don't have sportsmen competing where others are just going about their day : which is kind of like playing a football game in a crowded mall at Christmas time.

SHC

Yah...the volvo race committee puts the boats in danger .

 

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Having raced to Cuba I can tell you that arriving at the mark at 0430 with unlit vessels around is a little scary. 

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Once the immediate rescue has been completed, Vestas then probably had to determine if they could get their own vessel into port.  Once again, that's a big fucking hole in the bow. Sure there is a watertight bulkhead, but do you really know if the vessel is manageable with the bow compartment flooded.  30 miles is a lot further than I can swim. 'Twere me, I'd have every Volvo boat divert to Vestas' position as they were pproaching just to make sure the brothers and sisters in arms were making it home ok.

SHC

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Just now, Steve Clark said:

Once the immediate rescue has been completed, Vestas then probably had to determine if they could get their own vessel into port.  Once again, that's a big fucking hole in the bow. Sure there is a watertight bulkhead, but do you really know if the vessel is manageable with the bow compartment flooded.  30 miles is a lot further than I can swim. 'Twere me, I'd have every Volvo boat divert to Vestas' position as they were pproaching just to make sure the brothers and sisters in arms were making it home ok.

SHC

Exactly! But by then Dong Feng was celebrating on the dock...LIVE!!!

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Volvo boat whistling along at a deceptively high speed,fishing boat skipper thought that he was easily going to clear it.Only speculation I know. 

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43 minutes ago, rolltak said:

Why didn't Dong Feng respond to the emergency call? As the closest boat, they have the responsibility to administer assistance if possible regardless of any direction from RC. The tracker showed Dong Feng sail by Vestas' position about an hour after the incident with no slowing or alteration of course. AZKO wasn't directed to assist for several hours after the incident and even after Dong Feng was in the area of the finish line. DSQ Dong Feng RRS Rule 1.1.

Read forum, official news, before making complotist statement.

A mayday has been done, Vor has been alerted, and all vo65 too.
At the time DF were in the vicinity, they have been told to continue to not interfer with rescuing operation (commercial boat and chopper)
Then when all was finished, Akzo WAS directed by VOR to see if Vestas need help to finish (ie if the hole in the hull could be a problem to them).

The way you start with an opened question, following with some insinuation has nothing to do with a debate. It is just disgusting

 

And at the time Winner and DF were celebrating, nobody had info about the fatal casualty.

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8 minutes ago, rolltak said:

So it was an error by VOR RC? Not sending the closest boat to assist and then later sending another boat? 

The VOR control were not the important guys here. They were not responsible for coordinating the rescue. V11 made a mayday call. They were close to HK. There is an entire marine safety and emergency response service in play. Motor vessels, helicopters, etc. We can reasonably assume the the VOR were in contact with this, and there was a proper emergency response in train. DF did the right thing and asked if they were needed. In terms of the rescue of the fishermen the answer seems that they were not needed. Which is hardly a surprise. They would almost certainly have been a hindrance.

In retrospect the need for AK is most likely that once all the fishermen were recovered, the problem of a large hole in V11 became the main problem for the VOR. So they asked AK to shadow them in.  Now this is just a guess. But it is consistent.

This wasn't an incident on the high seas where the only help was from other nearby VOR boats.

I see I'm a bit late on the keyboard and  this has been answered, but since it was in reply to me, I'll post my repetition of the obvious reality.

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Coming back to the tread after a long gap, this is my understanding of what happened and how I feel about it.

The race HQ is in the building were the media studio directed the live arrival of the first two boats (after that I turned the coverage off). They deliberately downplayed the collision saying in a separate feed that "everyone onboard Vestas was safe". Damage control so they could avoid polluting the propaganda images in Hong Kong. Vestas had issued a Mayday within seconds of the collision and Dongfeng had proposed to stop to help but was instructed to continue to the finish line and to keep quiet. Dongfeng arrival images were too valuable. What a shame.

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