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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
duncan (the other one)

VOR Leg 4 Melbourne to Honkers

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28 minutes ago, jbc said:

That’s the first word attributed to any member of the crew in public, as far as I can tell.


There was an interview yesterday with Nicolai Sehested from Akzo as well.
I provide you with a link which I hope is translated from Danish (by Google translate so...)

https://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.baadmagasinet.dk%2Fvolvo-ocean-race%2Fnyheder%2F26519-hvordan-kommer-vi-videre-laes-interview-med-nicolai-sehested-fra-akzonobel&edit-text=

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4 minutes ago, ModernViking said:


There was an interview yesterday with Nicolai Sehested from Akzo as well.
I provide you with a link which I hope is translated from Danish (by Google translate so...)

https://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.baadmagasinet.dk%2Fvolvo-ocean-race%2Fnyheder%2F26519-hvordan-kommer-vi-videre-laes-interview-med-nicolai-sehested-fra-akzonobel&edit-text=

'How do we move on'? - Read interview with Nicolai Sehested from AkzoNobel

The boat magazine caught Nicolai Sehested, who was on board the boat AkzoNobel, who assisted Vestas during the accident yesterday, where a fishing vessel with 10 on board was sailed and sunk. A fisherman lost his life.

20-01-2018 14:53 Morten Brandt 
Source:

Considering the article 

Share the article 

As told here at baadmagasinet.dk, the Danish / American boat, Vestas 11th Hour Racing, was involved in a fatal accident. It happened when the boat sailed a fishing boat with 10 crew members on board.

The tragic accident took place in the night dark 30 miles before entering Hong Kong. The Chinese boat Dongfeng Racing was 30 miles after Vestas when the accident occurred. Even though Vestas, according to the Volvo Ocean Race's Race Control, issued a MAYDAY on behalf of the fishing boat, Dongfeng was not ordered to assist Vestas and the winded fishing boat.

However, it did the Dutch boat AkzoNobel, where the Danish sailor and security captain Nicolai Sehested was on board.

"It's incredibly tragic. It's going to be a damper for this very long. I do not have an overview of how to proceed. It has been hard for those who were on board Vestas, and it will be a long time. I have to admit I thought, "It's a pity they'll go through the same trip sometime,"explains Nicolai Sehested over the phone from Hong Kong, referring to the latest version of VOR, where Vestas stranded their boat on an island in it Indian Ocean.

What actually happened while AkzoNobel was at the scene of the accident, he can not elaborate, because the Volvo Ocean Race has given all the mouthwash while the investigations of the accident are taking place.

"We must not say anything about what we did - everyone knows we sailed there and that we were there for a good while. What we saw and experienced I can not tell, says Sehested to the boat magazine.

However, Nicolai Sehested can tell how to board AkzoNobel when approaching land on the edges.

"Here we are sailing, there are incredible many boats at sea, also without lights and without AIS, so yes, that's something that takes into account. With us you are more at the dummies, you keep looking more. It's close to scary relationships, there are many smaller boats that are hard to see. You can not light in the dark, because the night vision will smoke. It's about keeping your eyes and ear open and having more people on deck. We have two men watching the instruments, and then we have four on tires that are responsible for looking out in the shelter. And then we try to cover all the angles that way , he says.

Nicolai Sehested explains that on board we do not have the same tracker as we follow the sailing from outside. It is only within VHF distance, approx. 15 km, the boats can see each other. So most of the time they are too far apart to monitor the competitors.

- We first discovered that something was wrong when we were informed by Race Control.

On various media it has been speculated whether Vestas will be compensated and awarded 2nd place if, for example, concludes that the sailboat is not responsible for the accident. It considers Nicolai Sehested not to be the case.

- No, I do not pretend that there will be redress. I can not imagine that Vestas is making an application to get credited placements. There are people who have the priorities in order .

He further explains that VOR, in his opinion, has to run the communication reasonably strictly.

- It's to avoid the many speculations and surprises. However, I fully understand that anyone who follows the sailing will know what is happening. I would have it together. But people must keep in mind that there is much to play here. For those involved, for family members and for the Volvo Ocean Race.

Nicolai Sehested is ready to tell more to the boat magazine readers as soon as the investigations are over and he is given his freedom of speech about the accident.

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9 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Let me guess.  Brian Hancock?

You could be on a trail there Southern..

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12 minutes ago, ModernViking said:


There was an interview yesterday with Nicolai Sehested from Akzo as well.
I provide you with a link which I hope is translated from Danish (by Google translate so...)

https://translate.google.dk/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=da&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.baadmagasinet.dk%2Fvolvo-ocean-race%2Fnyheder%2F26519-hvordan-kommer-vi-videre-laes-interview-med-nicolai-sehested-fra-akzonobel&edit-text=

Thanks. That was really interesting.

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FYI.

Alex Pella jumped off Akzo onto Maserati (in Mod 70 mode) with Soldini in a record attempt from HK to London.

Giovanni Soldini aims to attempt the record breaking run of 13,000 miles, 24,000 kilometres non-stop, in January 2018 aboard the Maserati Multi70 trimaran along with four expert ocean racing sailors including Sébastien Audigane (FRA), Guido Broggi (ITA), Oliver Herrera (ESP) and Alex Pella (ESP).

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/11/10/record-attempt-hong-kong-london/

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Volvo Ocean Race

VOR: ‘Deeply saddened’ Volvo Ocean Race organisers supporting investigation into fatal Hong Kong crash as fisherman dies

Sunday, January 21, 2018

TOM EHMAN

HONG KONG – Above is the headline in today's South China Morning Post, in follow up to their story yesterday (that we linked to here on SI), reporting the sad news of the collision between Vestas 11th Hour Racing and a fishing boat with ten crew aboard, one of whom died. Reportedly the death was the owner of the fishing vessel, a Mr Xu of mainland China not Hong Kong. Today's full SCMP story here.

The Asia bureau of the New York Times also ran a story on the accident, dateline yesterday.

Yesterday Volvo Ocean Race Media ran an interview with Race Director Phil Lawrence on their website. 

Last evening, Scuttlebutt Sailing News (North America) ran a story entitled, "Volvo Ocean Race: The Blame Game." http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/01/20/volvo-ocean-race-blame-game/. Quoting from the article, which does not have a byline and appears to deflect blame from the team to the race organization: "While it is the commercial component that brings the Volvo Ocean Race to this Asian city, Race Organizers now must deal with the consequences of this decision. With the tracker reporting Vestas was traveling at 20 knots in winds of 23 knots, this team was unable to find a clear path to the finish." The article goes on to quote a Scuttlebutt reader thus: "The death of the fisherman rests squarely on the shoulders of the Race Organizers,” contends Tim Patterson, an avid Scuttlebutt reader. “The sailors are risking their lives to do this race, there is no reason to risk the lives of others.”

Sailing Illustrated believes it is far too early to be assessing blame, especially considering the facts are still being gathered. We do mourn the loss of life, send our heartfelt condolences to the family and friends (and shipmates) of the deceased, and can only imagine how distraught and sad are all those associated with the VOR – including and especially Vestas 11th Hour Racing. Blame aside, by all accounts the teams actions in the hours after the accident were admirable.

Yesterday a source provided SI with photos and videos of the rescue mission conducted by the Government (HKG) Flying Service that sent a helicopter and fixed-wing aircraft to the accident area approx 28nm southeast of Hong Kong. We declined to publish them out of respect for the fishing vessel crew involved. While the New York Times did run one of the photos, it was not up close and personal. The videos, however, were and we were surprised and saddened to see those videos published by some sailing media.

One hears, no surprise, that Vestas has obtained maritime legal counsel in Hong Kong. We are reliably informed of the name of the prestigious law firm and, indeed, the esteemed law partner leading the effort. Less reliably, but no surprise, we hear that Team AkzoNobel is seeking redress for having been diverted by VOR Race Control to aid Vestas in the SAR efforts. There is no doubt in our minds that the jury will provide redress in terms of an adjusted finish time for AkzoNobel, correcting for the time lost as a result of their diversion. AkzoNobel did the right thing, as you would expect of such an experienced and professional team. Questions remain as to why Dongfeng Race Team, who were behind Vestas and ahead of Akzo, did not divert. Reportedly Dongfeng offered to divert to Vestas but were advised by VOR Race Control not to do so (see the interview with VOR Race Director Phil Lawrence, link above).

We also hear from several sources, though even less reliably but are hearing nonetheless, that Vestas will also seek redress from the jury. We do not know the basis for such a claim if one is in fact being filed, but it could be that Vestas are alleging that their finishing position was hurt by an action or omission of the race committee/organizers in setting the finish line in the famously crowded waters of HKG. Developing....

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@ Sothern @ mad

Some of that SI reporting is a bit Daily Mailesque.

For those that don't know the Mail has a habit of being inflammatory at times. Regrettably it is number one for circulation.

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53 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

@ Sothern @ mad

Some of that SI reporting is a bit Daily Mailesque.

For those that don't know the Mail has a habit of being inflammatory at times. Regrettably it is number one for circulation.

Is the Daily Mail top of circulation numbers? 

No wonder we’re fucked! 

 

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34 minutes ago, mad said:

Is the Daily Mail top of circulation numbers? 

No wonder we’re fucked! 

 

 Daily mail titles circulation from Google search. Think it might trade places with The Sun titles.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/246077/reach-of-selected-national-newspapers-in-the-uk/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/529060/uk-newspaper-market-by-circulation/

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15 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Curious to see if Vestas files for a redress.

If they do I guess that would say much about their view of the circumstances.

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

He’s refering to the FP. Hey Tom, as you are reading and stealing stuff here, piss off.

I think maybe the ed should clarify if Ehman is allowed to quote this forum like this. If he is, there are many here who maybe will stop posting. 

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Given now the last protests went the only point we'll see such a protest is IF it goes through AND if it changes the ranking...

 

Changes to make arrivals safer.

Arrival in daytime would help a lot. But how to make that happen? 
Adding a late way point was possible during leg 1 to turn the finish into a photo op. Doing the same for a finish with known high collision risk because there are fleets of small boats, many known to be unlit, in the area is not different. VOR should be able to find out where the fishing fleets usually are, and then time it so that there is some amount of light when the boats enter the area. Even if that happens to be 30+nm offshore. The boats are usually close enough to arrive within hours of each other. Just in case add in the rule form the Melbourne arrival that the RC may shorten the course after one or more boats have finished. That way the tail end can be taken out of race mode at sunset to concentrate on the course. 

Not too complex, does not add pauses to the race, has been done before. First and foremost: Turns the finish into an photo op.

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4 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I think maybe the ed should clarify if Ehman is allowed to quote this forum like this. If he is, there are many here who maybe will stop posting. 

I missed it. What did he quote?

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6 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Posing the question at all contains the presupposition that this accident could have been avoided by changing the finish lines. Short of laying the finish line somewhere east of the Phillipines and requiring the boats to sail only in daylight from the finish to the quay in HK, there is nothing you could usefully do to avoid the boats crossing large areas of sea frequented by fishing boats. It is never a good idea to focus on the unusual specifics of an accident when trying to frame guidelines to prevent other accidents. The core problem is high speed boats, limited visibility and crowded seaways. Focussing on the proximity to the finish line obscures the real problems. 

The VOR boats are simply one of a great number of high speed boats on the water. I suspect that worldwide the number of poor fishermen run down at sea by high speed craft is a depressingly large number. If you want to help these fishermen and other poor seafarers making a living the problem is much wider. Moving our sports routes really makes no useful impact.  

I don't know the answer either, but it may be that at least some part of the answer might come from technological sources.  FLIR has been mentioned, and I find it really worrying that it has not already become standard fitment to most ocean racing yachts. (The idea that a core reason the VO 65s don't have it is only because B&G don't make one is both repellant and plausible.)  Mandatory AIS for any boat moving in these crowded seaways might be the most effective way of saving a lot of lives. Maybe it is something the VOR could get behind - even to the point of providing support in some form for the availability of affordable transceivers. The technology isn't difficult. An affordable "please don't run me over" transceiver could be made for a few dollars. An affordable radar transponder similarly. I can imagine all sorts of politics coming into play trying to push this - but IMHO getting every craft in the area so fitted would probably save more lives than anything else.

Other than that, we have to accept that life involves risk. We accept risk in order to live. Sailors racing the world accept that there is chance they might die, and the historical odds are something that give pause. NASA astronauts accepted a risk that one in 50 launches would kill them. Yet many undertook multiple missions - to the point where their chances of dying were not much better than playing Russian Roulette*. And sadly, poor fishermen risk their live to make a living knowing they may be mown down by a fast ship. Rather than moan about our slight contribution to that risk, we can be part of a wider solution. Messing about with changed finish lines is not that solution.

*this is fallacious, but you get the idea

 

4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I think it would have been different. The sailors accept the risk, and we as spectators implicitly understand this. The Dakar rally is a good counterpoint. Racing drivers die still. But when spectators or other innocents die the impact is much greater. When Hans Horrevoets was swept overboard it was a tragic loss, we were all shocked. But killing an innocent guy who simply had the bad luck to be in the wrong place cuts differently. Han's loss brought about a number of changes to the race - especially the MOB equipment. This accident will bring about some other changes, although just what we don't yet know.

Francis you are framing this long winded opinion largely around the assumption that Vestas as the high speed vessel is the one at fault and could have avoided the collision.

How about holstering your quill on that, it is exciting the bunnies.

 

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25 minutes ago, southerncross said:

I missed it. What did he quote?

He keeps referring to what people say in here in general. "Readers on SA comment.....", "SA comments" - I don't like it. The forum is of course public but I think most people who post in here believe that what they write is meant for this forum alone. 

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30 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Given now the last protests went the only point we'll see such a protest is IF it goes through AND if it changes the ranking...

 

Changes to make arrivals safer.

Arrival in daytime would help a lot. But how to make that happen? 
Adding a late way point was possible during leg 1 to turn the finish into a photo op. Doing the same for a finish with known high collision risk because there are fleets of small boats, many known to be unlit, in the area is not different. VOR should be able to find out where the fishing fleets usually are, and then time it so that there is some amount of light when the boats enter the area. Even if that happens to be 30+nm offshore. The boats are usually close enough to arrive within hours of each other. Just in case add in the rule form the Melbourne arrival that the RC may shorten the course after one or more boats have finished. That way the tail end can be taken out of race mode at sunset to concentrate on the course. 

Not too complex, does not add pauses to the race, has been done before. First and foremost: Turns the finish into an photo op.

I agree, not too complex.  But there are other solutions...

Create exclusions zones around areas where slow traffic is known to be a problem (e.g. fishing).  Adjust it as required as the boats approach.  Not so different from the ice exclusion zone.  Provide a high speed escort for each boat as it arrives, from as far out as necessary (in this case, e.g. 50 miles).  Yes, it requires some deeper understanding into the local marine traffic scene.  But what is so hard about that.  And yes, it involves additional cost, but surely the benefit is worth it.  Unless being careful, considered and intelligent is not part of the brand.  

Ultimately, my interest in this race is rapidly dropping.  I am afraid that I have a very reduced respect for the race organizer at this point.

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1 minute ago, jackolantern said:

Readers on Sailing Anarchy think that Tom Ehman is a virulent self-promoting, rumor mongering, elitist, windbag.

You missed Larry's arselick

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48 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I think maybe the ed should clarify if Ehman is allowed to quote this forum like this. If he is, there are many here who maybe will stop posting. 

might have happened already...if I was forss, I'd be reluctant to post anything here. :(

 

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15 minutes ago, crashdog said:

Provide a high speed escort for each boat as it arrives, from as far out as necessary (in this case, e.g. 50 miles).

Outside assistance...Dawn will lodge a 69er.

unnamed (9).gif

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What I can't believe is the number of people calling for a slow down, hove to and complaining about the inshore finish line. For fucks sake idiots, this accident happened 50nm, 57.3 miles or 92.6 KM from the finish line!!!

Whether you like to admit it or not, accidents do happen and innocents do become victims, whether that is at sea, on land and even in the air.

Often when accidents occur, both parties can be at blame and in this case, we know SFA about the fishing boat. We don't know if they were motoring, what speed and course relative to Vestas, if they were drifting, what if any lights they had displayed and whether they were maintaining a proper lookout.

Before anyone can call the crew of Vestas accountable or demand a change to the sailing instructions, you should wait until the facts are known.

 

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23 minutes ago, crashdog said:

Ultimately, my interest in this race is rapidly dropping.  I am afraid that I have a very reduced respect for the race organizer at this point.

Yep, besides offering an marketing platform, what is the point anyway? 

It's not a World championship.  It's not the Olympics.  It's more like a travelling circus.

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

As an alternative I for one would be more afraid of gravel rash falling over on the boat ramp.

images (13).jpeg

You need to be tethered to ensure you don't fall in, wear hi-vis and traffic cones with flashing lights around you before you are even remotely safe.

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I'm a lurker, but I'm coming out of "stealth mode" to suggest that Vestas, the company may drop out of the VOR. They had a boat plough into an island in the last edition, and now this tragedy. I know it's a different boat (it's the old Alvamedica rebranded) but Vestas is in the race for the publicity.

It seems to me to be a net negative on the publicity front. They supply blades for wind turbines and since the opponents of offshore windfarms claim they're dangerous. The incidents while racing will add fuel to the opponents arguments. It's not rational, but perception.

I don't know what it costs to run a Volvo campaign, but I doubt you'd get any change out of $2.5 million. There is no longer an upside for Vestas.

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36 minutes ago, random said:

  It's more like a travelling circus.

But isn't that the point. For maximum return to the sponsors its got to pique the interest of the masses. Non sailing and sailing. Judging by this thread the sponsors are getting value for money at the moment.

I for one have learnt that Vestas is highly skilled at crashing into stuff . Reefs/ fishing boats whatever. Who wouldn't want to  employ the services of a highly skilled company?;)

 

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40 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I think most people who post in here believe that what they write is meant for this forum alone. 

Sorry, but that's a little bit naive to think so in today's world.

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16 minutes ago, overlay said:

But isn't that the point. For maximum return to the sponsors its got to pique the interest of the masses. Non sailing and sailing. Judging by this thread the sponsors are getting value for money at the moment.

 

Wind, is the link with sailing that's Vestas after. Not dead and mayhem.

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10 minutes ago, Herman said:

After making your point 5 times or so with different posts stating all the same, we have to part. Bye.

You just noticed? He has beaten more horses to death than anyone, including the entire Mongol horde...

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Vestas is more than just a boat sponsor this round (a boat on which 11th Hour Racing has the much bigger logo to boot), they are an race partner too.
3 race partners this round, Inmarsat, Vestas, 11th Hour Racing. 11th Hour Racing is also founding principal partner for the sustainability project.

This is not just any boat.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

5a64f96742566_images(51).jpeg.bc34020082345b1cf90cb54084d373f3.jpeg.

Ah, you got one of those new ceramic moonshine distillers from Amazon, that explains a lot.

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2 minutes ago, Herman said:

I have ridden horses for years, so I don’t try to get a mental picture of that scene. 

But you do understand the useless stupidity of his continual repetitions? Cruel in it's own special way...

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29 minutes ago, Hwyl said:

I'm a lurker, but I'm coming out of "stealth mode" to suggest that Vestas, the company may drop out of the VOR. They had a boat plough into an island in the last edition, and now this tragedy. I know it's a different boat (it's the old Alvamedica rebranded) but Vestas is in the race for the publicity.

It seems to me to be a net negative on the publicity front. They supply blades for wind turbines and since the opponents of offshore windfarms claim they're dangerous. The incidents while racing will add fuel to the opponents arguments. It's not rational, but perception.

I don't know what it costs to run a Volvo campaign, but I doubt you'd get any change out of $2.5 million. There is no longer an upside for Vestas.

$15m 

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I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

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1 minute ago, Herman said:

OMFG, there are too many of them, I’m off to bed. Jack, do your thing.

I've no idea why you try, Herman. These fuckers appear from under a bridge at the mere smell of a public lynching. 

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15 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

And to ensure that all crews comply, there will be no 1 to 7 finish placing. All boats that complete the leg without colliding into another boat will all be awarded the win and the same number of points. To remove all pressure on the skippers, all legs will start a fixed number of days after the last boat has arrived. 

This will make the VOR fair, safe and no one will get hurt, whether it’s innocents or the crews feelings as even if they arrive weeks after the first boats, they are still winners !

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12 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Chinese media quoting 20 feet and AIS is not mandatory on something that small

Ewww. 10 people on a 20 ft boat. And no AIS. Really? Someone died and others were no doubt traumatised so I can’t make jokes about dying from claustrophobia but gee that sounds like a tight little ship. And if so you’d have to think that no more deaths was a lucky escape and a pretty good outcome. 

It really is a leap of faith when we charge blindly through the night on our sailing boats at high speed. 

In Oz a highly respected crew on a well campaigned 80 footer (Shockwave) in a short night race down the coast to Flinders Islet and back to Sydney managed to run into the island and two died. 

My interpretation of the coronial inquirey was a major cause was too much dependence on instrumentation (gps’ in the area were giving false readings that night in that case) which was part of an alignment of a series of little things that happened to end up in a major fuckup. 

I wonder as we get too dependent on gizmos eg. AIS, chart plotters, radar etc (as amazing as they are) that it’s too easy to forget to physically view forward.

Still with all the factors added together such as possibly the other boat being unlit or poorly lit (or it could have been lit up like a Christmas tree) and god knows how many sails deployed on the VO sailing boat, all helping to block vision (what can you see past a code-0 type sail? Nuffin! and I hate to admit it but I’ve done it in broad daylight- blindspotted by my asy kite, fortunately at slow speed ) and it being nighttime, heaps of bow spray, gun-ho-ness, focus on boat handling, fatigue, with Honkers being a super busy part of the world and not particularly well regulated, boats apparently not on AIS, how do you not crash into something? 

I wonder if they’ll raise and retrieve the fishing boat for inspection. Can’t imagine the water was particularly deep there. 

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4 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

Ewww. 10 people on a 20 ft boat. And no AIS. Really? Someone died and others were no doubt traumatised so I can’t make jokes about dying from claustrophobia but gee that sounds like a tight little ship. And if so you’d have to think that no more deaths was a lucky escape and a pretty good outcome. 

It really is a leap of faith when we charge blindly through the night on our sailing boats at high speed. 

In Oz a highly respected crew on a well campaigned 80 footer (Shockwave) in a short night race down the coast to Flinders Islet and back to Sydney managed to run into the island and two died. 

My interpretation of the coronial inquirey was a major cause was too much dependence on instrumentation (gps’ in the area were giving false readings that night in that case) which was part of an alignment of a series of little things that happened to end up in a major fuckup. 

I wonder as we get too dependent on gizmos eg. AIS, chart plotters, radar etc (as amazing as they are) that it’s too easy to forget to physically view forward.

Still with all the factors added together such as possibly the other boat being unlit or poorly lit (or it could have been lit up like a Christmas tree) and god knows how many sails deployed on the VO sailing boat, all helping to block vision (what can you see past a code-0 type sail? Nuffin! and I hate to admit it but I’ve done it in broad daylight- blindspotted by my asy kite, fortunately at slow speed ) and it being nighttime, heaps of bow spray, gun-ho-ness, focus on boat handling, fatigue, with Honkers being a super busy part of the world and not particularly well regulated, boats apparently not on AIS, how do you not crash into something? 

I wonder if they’ll raise and retrieve the fishing boat for inspection. Can’t imagine the water was particularly deep there. 

Calling PIL007 ... 

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36 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

If you're going to troll this forum you better up your game because that blabber you posted there is a pretty  lame attempt.  I award you no points

 

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6 hours ago, WLIS Jibing said:

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, and there are some truly excellent posts.  In my opinion - and as has been repeated over the last few pages of this thread - there is no clear-cut solution to this issue. 

Several on here have correctly noted that this is an isolated incident involving one death, and that numerous fishermen and other seafarers die each year for reasons that have nothing to do with the VOR or other sailboat races.  That is certainly a fair point and should be taken into consideration.  But, that does not mean the VOR should not assess ways to improve safety, and if necessary, make significant changes to its races.  The VOR, as a highly-funded, internationally televised ocean race with large sponsors, should be held to the highest standards for promoting safety and maintaining safe conditions for all.  To a large extent, I believe the VOR already does a good job at safety, but more can always be done.  Again, I personally have no answers on what to do, but hopefully with time and study, standards and rules can be improved. 

 Well thanks for repeating the last 7 pages.

anything of clarity to impart?

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CFS Klopas you are a complete fuckwit. And since Jack seems to be asleep fuck off you turnip.

You have all the facts do you?

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2 hours ago, crashdog said:

.  

Ultimately, my interest in this race is rapidly dropping.  I am afraid that I have a very reduced respect for the race organizer at this point.

Please feel free to fuck off then. 

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49 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

That’s called family cruising

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49 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

I vote this the dumbest comment ever made on this forum.

Where do you come from? A Dodgem car racing forum?

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4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I vote this the dumbest comment ever made on this forum.

Where do you come from? A Dodgem car racing forum?

Voting something any decent human being would agree with as dumb just exposes you as an asshole.

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2 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

He keeps referring to what people say in here in general. "Readers on SA comment.....", "SA comments" - I don't like it. The forum is of course public but I think most people who post in here believe that what they write is meant for this forum alone. 

It’s an open forum, it’s fair game for anybody as far as I can see to use comments posted here. Much like an open Facebook profile. 

Edit

Dont step into PA whatever you do! Those rules do not apply!

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1 minute ago, CFS Klopas said:

Voting something something any decent human being would agree with as dumb just exposes you as an asshole.

You are stating the bleeding obvious that has never been a part of yacht racing. Your comment exposes you as a clueless moron who should just fuck off off this thread. You are are clearly here as an ambulance chaser.

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43 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

Ewww. 10 people on a 20 ft boat. And no AIS. Really? Someone died and others were no doubt traumatised so I can’t make jokes about dying from claustrophobia but gee that sounds like a tight little ship. And if so you’d have to think that no more deaths was a lucky escape and a pretty good outcome. 

It really is a leap of faith when we charge blindly through the night on our sailing boats at high speed. 

In Oz a highly respected crew on a well campaigned 80 footer (Shockwave) in a short night race down the coast to Flinders Islet and back to Sydney managed to run into the island and two died. 

My interpretation of the coronial inquirey was a major cause was too much dependence on instrumentation (gps’ in the area were giving false readings that night in that case) which was part of an alignment of a series of little things that happened to end up in a major fuckup. 

I wonder as we get too dependent on gizmos eg. AIS, chart plotters, radar etc (as amazing as they are) that it’s too easy to forget to physically view forward.

Still with all the factors added together such as possibly the other boat being unlit or poorly lit (or it could have been lit up like a Christmas tree) and god knows how many sails deployed on the VO sailing boat, all helping to block vision (what can you see past a code-0 type sail? Nuffin! and I hate to admit it but I’ve done it in broad daylight- blindspotted by my asy kite, fortunately at slow speed ) and it being nighttime, heaps of bow spray, gun-ho-ness, focus on boat handling, fatigue, with Honkers being a super busy part of the world and not particularly well regulated, boats apparently not on AIS, how do you not crash into something? 

I wonder if they’ll raise and retrieve the fishing boat for inspection. Can’t imagine the water was particularly deep there. 

 

38 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

Calling PIL007 ... 

One more time for the record..... Shockwave grounding had nothing to do with instruments... Human visual mistake at night..

I thankfully stayed away from here over the weekend. The comments are just nuts. Some SA posters have reached a new low here for me. (many seemed to have come for the car crash)

Sincere condolences to the family of the deceased crewman.

Congrats to Scally

Anytime we leave our lounge rooms we risk our lives but it's our choice...

No real winners here... I'm out.

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6 minutes ago, hoppy said:

 that has never been a part of yacht racing. 

Yeah, racing boats totally don't need to worry about colliding with civilians. Oh wait, COLREGS are incorporated in the preamble of RRS Part 2.

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14 minutes ago, dacapo said:

That’s called family cruising

You've got a pretty fucked up family in that case, I resemble that remark.

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1 minute ago, CFS Klopas said:

Yeah, racing boats totally don't need to worry about colliding with civilians. Oh wait, COLREGS are incorporated in the preamble of RRS Part 2.

You make it sound like racers consider a collision an acceptable tactic.

You are better off spending your online time on a cruiser forum. Idiot. 

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3 hours ago, Chasm said:

Given now the last protests went the only point we'll see such a protest is IF it goes through AND if it changes the ranking...

 

Changes to make arrivals safer.

Arrival in daytime would help a lot. But how to make that happen? 
Adding a late way point was possible during leg 1 to turn the finish into a photo op. Doing the same for a finish with known high collision risk because there are fleets of small boats, many known to be unlit, in the area is not different. VOR should be able to find out where the fishing fleets usually are, and then time it so that there is some amount of light when the boats enter the area. Even if that happens to be 30+nm offshore. The boats are usually close enough to arrive within hours of each other. Just in case add in the rule form the Melbourne arrival that the RC may shorten the course after one or more boats have finished. That way the tail end can be taken out of race mode at sunset to concentrate on the course. 

Not too complex, does not add pauses to the race, has been done before. First and foremost: Turns the finish into an photo op.

A late waypoint would need to be installed 100 miles offshore and would/could advantage differing boats depending on their angle of approach. Imagine two boats, the same distance from the finish, coming in from 90 degree opposite angle and one having to beat and the run down. PROTESSST

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2 hours ago, Herman said:

After making your point 5 times or so with different posts stating all the same, we have to part. Bye.

It took you this long?

 

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1 hour ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

Good name klopas,

is that code for a complete lack of understanding.

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Seems  that the coast  guard/navy for the given ports should be patrolling the waters ahead of the finishing vessels with coordination from the race committee.

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13 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

Good name klopas,

is that code for a complete lack of understanding.

He's on the wrong forum. He thinks it's a soccer forum as his avatar is the Chicago Fire soccer team emblem and his screen name is their coach.

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9 hours ago, slug zitski said:

. For instance ...a typical regulation in restricted waters is a quick flash yellow light to identify high speed craft at night.

If you google fucking idiot, a photo of Slug comes up. 

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37 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

Yeah, racing boats totally don't need to worry about colliding with civilians. Oh wait, COLREGS are incorporated in the preamble of RRS Part 2.

Who told you COLREGS applies, here ?

For China I doubt,
Along his coastal border, China has described a Chinese Sovereigny Area where common international rules does not necessarily apply.
You know, the area that extends till the spratley islands ...
 

In other words, even if both boats may have been in fault regarding colregs (boat lights, safe speed, etc..), a trial (whoever is on trial) is already a problem for China. Because they'll had first to recognise if, yes or no, COLLREGS should apply.

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Francis you are framing this long winded opinion largely around the assumption that Vestas as the high speed vessel is the one at fault and could have avoided the collision.

How about holstering your quill on that, it is exciting the bunnies.

I hope I'm not giving that impression. I don't think "fault" is a useful idea. Things happen. When bad things happen you look to see if there is some way to improve the situation so they are less likely in the future.

There have been a lot of hidden assumptions in what many have said. The idea that because it was a fishing boat that it was engaged in fishing at the time for instance. We don't know. It could have been under way and crossed in front of V11. From the point of view of improving safety it doesn't matter if the skipper of the fishing boat was blind drunk or the boat was packed to the gunwales with illicit contraband and they were running with no lights. There was a collision and someone died. Any such accident always opens discussion about what can be done better. Even if it turns out that some of the changes made have nothing to do with the initial accident.

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8 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

No he wasn't. Which is why I wrote "spectators or other innocents". You clearly don't even bother to read at the most basic level before mouthing off. You seem to have a fixed agenda and are so stupid that you can't even comprehend through the red mist that you are simply making a fool of yourself. Do us the simple courtesy of taking your time to read what is written, and don't assume you know what we mean before you have read past the first few words. Maybe take the time to read it twice, it sounds as if you need the practice.

Ever since he showed up he wades into every thread with his dick hanging out. 

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2 minutes ago, CFS Klopas said:

World Sailing and the VOR SI, by observing the RRS.

if some of Vestas crew  or even VOR oganisers are on trial in China, they would be very confident with your stance.

Try to read complety and understand posts before replying.
How old are you btw ?

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2 hours ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

Now Klopas this is a tough room, however in your case I think everyone is being a bit hard on you for not factoring in your recent medical procedure.

It is understandable your a bit grumpy finding out Alinguist was your donor and they made a 180 degree error. 

Look on the bright side, you don't have to use a rear vision mirror any more. As you can now run backwards really fast, could you go back to where ever it is you came from. 

I realise you probably call that going somewhere now.

Bye.

images (46).jpeg

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Here is a forum for the 80% of posters who have jumped on this one since Friday evening (UTC).

The 80% who have previously not appeared on the VOR forums since the race began in Alicante.

The hand wringers, the know alls - the vultures & trolls. In other words those who can't resist a drama but have no real interest in the race.

You know who you are.

Now fuck off and suck your dicks elsewhere.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CFS Klopas said:

I would like to see the RC impose consequences on Vestas for violation of COLREGS, all vessels are required to avoid collisions regardless of fault of the other vessel. Something like assigning a last place finish for the leg and beginning the next leg on schedule while Vestas sits in port completing repairs. Not hitting other boats should be a minimum requirement for racing.

The only interesting idea I have for preventing future problems is not allowing VOR boats to use full sail at night in predetermined hazardous areas. Perhaps requiring 2 or 3 reefs or not allowing use of a headsail.

Are you the bastard child spawned from Random and A4E illicit relationship? 

There cannot be many other reasons for your trolling or complete fucking ignorance. 

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7 minutes ago, ardel said:

if some of Vestas crew  or even VOR oganisers are on trial in China, they would be very confident with your stance.

I have no idea what Chinese law is or whether they give a shit about the crash.  I do know the Racing Rules and that the Race Committee had an obligation to punish competitors who break rules.

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8 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Ever since he showed up he wades into every thread with his dick hanging out

How can you tell? 

biochemist-using-large-microscope-comput

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1 hour ago, LionIsland said:

Ewww. 10 people on a 20 ft boat. And no AIS. Really? Someone died and others were no doubt traumatised so I can’t make jokes about dying from claustrophobia but gee that sounds like a tight little ship. And if so you’d have to think that no more deaths was a lucky escape and a pretty good outcome. 

It really is a leap of faith when we charge blindly through the night on our sailing boats at high speed. 

In Oz a highly respected crew on a well campaigned 80 footer (Shockwave) in a short night race down the coast to Flinders Islet and back to Sydney managed to run into the island and two died. 

My interpretation of the coronial inquirey was a major cause was too much dependence on instrumentation (gps’ in the area were giving false readings that night in that case) which was part of an alignment of a series of little things that happened to end up in a major fuckup. 

I wonder as we get too dependent on gizmos eg. AIS, chart plotters, radar etc (as amazing as they are) that it’s too easy to forget to physically view forward.

Still with all the factors added together such as possibly the other boat being unlit or poorly lit (or it could have been lit up like a Christmas tree) and god knows how many sails deployed on the VO sailing boat, all helping to block vision (what can you see past a code-0 type sail? Nuffin! and I hate to admit it but I’ve done it in broad daylight- blindspotted by my asy kite, fortunately at slow speed ) and it being nighttime, heaps of bow spray, gun-ho-ness, focus on boat handling, fatigue, with Honkers being a super busy part of the world and not particularly well regulated, boats apparently not on AIS, how do you not crash into something? 

I wonder if they’ll raise and retrieve the fishing boat for inspection. Can’t imagine the water was particularly deep there. 

Oh fucking great, another copy and paste repeat fucking idiot. 

Read the history properly. 

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1 hour ago, LionIsland said:

Ewww. 10 people on a 20 ft boat. And no AIS. Really?

 

only vessels 300grt and over are required to have AIS and only if on international voyages.

Fishing boats are exempt as are all government owned vessels

most countries in Asia dont even have any form of boat registration for local boats for starters....

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