duncan (the other one)

VOR Leg 4 Melbourne to Honkers

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16 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Teams are required to use the hydrogenerator for a minimum amount of hours per leg. Nobody uses them more because drag.
AFAIK we only know the number for leg two, which was IIRC 21 hours. Lets call it one hour for each day of projected leg duration. - Quite irrelevant.

If you want to make an impact you have to force the teams to us them more and the fastest way is to change the scoring. Find out how much diesel each boat used, rank them and give points based on it. Needs to be something significant but not too big. Hmm.
I'd call it the eco challenge, same scoring system as the legs, using 1/11 points and 1 full bonus point overall for the winner. Basically another leg. With so many fractions the need for a tie breaker is greatly reduced. As a result I'd put more emphasis in port series again by changing its scoring to the same system. 1/[number of in port races] points each race + 1 point to the overall winner

11 ocean legs some of them double scored for a total of 15(?), 1 eco leg, 1 in port leg. A few bonus points for some stuff. All in one unified scoring table.
Not too bad. If there is still tie? Bonus match race after the last finish! - It's a sailing event isn't it. ;) 

 

[Yes, its slightly more complicated, for instance teams would be tempted to reduce power consumption by doing less media.]

I think the best would be to define a fix amount of diesel allowed per leg (with a locked emergency reserve), and bring this amount (per mile) further down per edition.

That way it brings optimisation on energy production, but also consumption.

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Any of you boys in Sydney going to run offshore to meet the fleet?  It's only blowing 25.

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51 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

To me, just an interesting point and a further challenge for race officers when sighting a line with canting keel boats on it, especially when the run the line like Mapfre did.

Either way, it must have been bloody close :-)

Hard to tell by an arbitrary white line overlaid on the course which is mostly there for viewers.  

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3 hours ago, oceangeek said:

Now 3 min to on air

 

You need to take that to PA. <_<

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39 minutes ago, yl75 said:

I think the best would be to define a fix amount of diesel allowed per leg (with a locked emergency reserve), and bring this amount (per mile) further down per edition.

That way it brings optimisation on energy production, but also consumption.

They don't use that much fuel. We're talking about onboard laptop/electronics/radar/keel/making water - ~2-3 hr run time per day (4-10 liters diesel per day). For 9 crew + 1 OBR. As far as human consumption of energy, it isn't even noteworthy.

If VOR were serious they wouldn't use the cruiser version of the hydrogen - W&S used in racing has a variable pitch prop that's better optimised for planing boats.

 

Vestas, DF & MAPFRE continues to show they're at a diff level. After only 12 hours, only 9 of which was outside of the Bay area - they're already BVR for Brunel/Scally/TToP/Akzo.

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7 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Vestas, DF & MAPFRE continues to show they're at a diff level. After only 12 hours, only 9 of which was outside of the Bay area - they're already BVR for Brunel/Scally/TToP/Akzo.

They all just fall into place.  

I've been watching Mapfre vs Dongfeng's BS match up esp. after some claims by Mapfre that they think they have caught up.

Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 4.48.27 PM.png

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Interesting phenomenon when new navigators come to the race.  Somehow they think they'll try something different and come out better for it.  It takes a little while before they realize the importance of staying in touch.  

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23 minutes ago, Miffy said:

They don't use that much fuel. We're talking about onboard laptop/electronics/radar/keel/making water - ~2-3 hr run time per day (4-10 liters diesel per day). For 9 crew + 1 OBR. As far as human consumption of energy, it isn't even noteworthy.

If VOR were serious they wouldn't use the cruiser version of the hydrogen - W&S used in racing has a variable pitch prop that's better optimised for planing boats.

 

Vestas, DF & MAPFRE continues to show they're at a diff level. After only 12 hours, only 9 of which was outside of the Bay area - they're already BVR for Brunel/Scally/TToP/Akzo.

2-3 hours per day is a lot, of course if you compair to average OECD consumption it isn't a lot, but the whole point could be to bring this down a lot as part of the race, and for that defining a fix amount of fossile energy is much better that defining a minimum amount of hydrogenerator  use ...

But that would also mean getting out of OD for this aspect.

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4 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Interesting phenomenon when new navigators come to the race.  Somehow they think they'll try something different and come out better for it.  It takes a little while before they realize the importance of staying in touch.  

If you don't have boat speed or the points to warrant covering attention from MAPFRE/DF/Vestas - might as well try to sail the best race you can w/ more risks. Cut a corner here and there, gamble on a diff routing. If you're consistently down 6nm every 24 hours - there's no way you can run the same routing over 20 days.

With only 6 real legs left (leg 5 is participation trophy), it must be so tough for DF/Vestas to decide whether to stick with MAPFRE or attack each other. They both want to bridge that 6 points, but can easily lose out 2nd place too. 

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

Cut a corner here and there, gamble on a diff routing.

Rarely pays off.

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1 hour ago, boomer said:

 

 

Thanks Boomer.

Good to hear Tucker still can’t work out the difference between port and starboard tack yet!!:wacko:

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Rarely pays off - but still better odds than following the leaders and wishful thinking that somehow you'll suddenly find speed to bridge that gap...

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23 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Rarely pays off - but still better odds than following the leaders and wishful thinking that somehow you'll suddenly find speed to bridge that gap...

I guess what I'm addressing is that some of the skippers believe that they have the boat speed now.  The fleet is still relatively tight.  I wouldn't say it was time to start banging corners with wishful thinking.  This is where they start to lose miles.  

If further down the race, if they've fallen off the pace and in a different weather system, then of course,  sail your own race.  

But for now I don't see any reason to not try to stay in touch with the leaders.

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According to tracker, Brunel has some mighty fine boat speed and VMG at the moment.

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6 minutes ago, Varan said:

DFRT takes the lead! Year of the Dong.

Yeah, or the beginning of the third episode under the same scenario ..

(never 2 without 3 as we say in French)

But hope it won't be the case !

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Regarding the incident at the start, according to DONGFENG

Quote

However a port-and-starboard incident with Team Akzo-Nobel forced skipper Charles Caudrelier to put the boat into a penalty turn – dropping Dongfeng down the order in the early stages. But the team quickly fought back as the crews went to windward in building breeze.

 

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Dongfeng and Mapfre really going at it.  It's like the opening round of a Leonard vs. Duran fight.

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23 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Dongfeng and Mapfre really going at it.  It's like the opening round of a Leonard vs. Duran fight.

Yes, they can't even wiggle their way ahead...

wiggie.jpg.fc10fb54563b812cd47b2bf203b80ea7.jpg

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25 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Dongfeng and Mapfre really going at it.  It's like the opening round of a Leonard vs. Duran fight.

Didn't take long for normal transmission to resume. Another ding dong battle up front.

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1 minute ago, Varan said:

Yes, they can't even wiggle their way ahead...

wiggie.jpg.fc10fb54563b812cd47b2bf203b80ea7.jpg

Yep shifty out there - the extremes at the moment are 219 to 243 TWD across the fleet.

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

Interesting phenomenon when new navigators come to the race.  Somehow they think they'll try something different and come out better for it.  It takes a little while before they realize the importance of staying in touch.  

Yes, agree, you first need to try not losing it before trying to win it.... when you’re about to lose it then it is time to start thinking out of the box. Fleed is still tight so no need to go all creative and experimental at this point. Especially as it indeed rarely pays off. 

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DF and MF been lifted 20 degrees while the middle boats have way better VMG and DF just jibed.  Should be an interesting cross.  AZ probably leading.

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1 minute ago, Kenny Dumas said:

DF and MF been lifted 20 degrees while the middle boats have way better VMG and DF just jibed.  Should be an interesting cross.  AZ probably leading.

Perhaps Brunel?

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Just now, Kenny Dumas said:

DF and MF been lifted 20 degrees while the middle boats have way better VMG and DF just jibed.  Should be an interesting cross.  AZ probably leading.

I was about to say, I thought it was uncharacteristic for DF and Mapfre to hold on for so long.  Maybe they got caught up in their own battle.

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I don't understand what Mapfre is doing?  I wish the Forss tracker worked with Live updates.

Edit:  Just gybed.

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Sure seems like Vila has his idea for where the boat needs to be. Vestas and DF can play yo yo with each other. 

Holding present course, MAPFRE and DF will be out of AIS range from each other in about 30 minutes. :lol:

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1 minute ago, Hitchhiker said:

Tracker displays a lower windspeed and diff TWD at the cursor than the tables!

I know.  Can't tell why or what.

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7 minutes ago, southerncross said:

I know.  Can't tell why or what.

The wind speed and directions on the tracker "map" are in fact forecasts (I hope well synchronized) taken through the windy API (not sure which wind model), whereas the tws and twd in the table are data received from the boats, right ?

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2 minutes ago, yl75 said:

taken through the windy API

The Windy API is showing correct.

Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 7.16.56 PM.png

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10 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Sure seems like Vila has his idea for where the boat needs to be. Vestas and DF can play yo yo with each other. 

Holding present course, MAPFRE and DF will be out of AIS range from each other in about 30 minutes. :lol:

Map gybing to cover?  Looks like more pressure to the east.

Screenshot (6).png

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12 minutes ago, southerncross said:

The Windy API is showing correct.

Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 7.16.56 PM.png

But if you select GFS  instead of ECMWF in windy (bottom right corner), you get a different result (less wind at current positions), but still more than on the tracker map.

Not sure, maybe a time synchronisation issue/bug in the tracker (or windy not providing the data they use but a more "raw" set for some rights reasons).

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Bloody good racing, no?  Should be some good footage of the all the crosses coming off the boats soon.

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Took a while to check if MAPF/DFRT might be playing for position re ocean currents, but not yet in play.

race experts say it’s just local wind pressure.

 

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16 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Map gybing to cover?  Looks like more pressure to the east.

Screenshot (6).png

I'll grab my popcorn. Gybing battle soon. 

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DF crosses all.  They're consistently sailing a little hotter angle than the fleet.  Seems to work in these conditions.

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Couple of hours ago, WillH explained the strategy behind the  gybing is to set up for the shift around the headland

 

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7 minutes ago, yl75 said:

But if you select GFS  instead of ECMWF in windy (bottom right corner), you get a different result (less wind at current positions), but still more than on the tracker map.

Remember up thread or more likely the leg three thread someone? explained there are three different models at play here.

Two on Forss tracker and another on the VOR. So far this race ECMWF on Forss tracker has been the most accurate methinks.

However someone else? suggested that for this and the next leg to Auckland ECMWF may not be so reliable.

Apols for not quoting sources etc.

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4 minutes ago, stief said:

Couple of hours ago, WillH explained the strategy behind the  gybing is to set up for the shift around the headland

Should be some convergence acceleration on that corner too - wind more veered overland in the southern hemisphere.

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Watching Brian Thompson.  Could have tucked in behind Mapfre.  Instead chose to sail through the fleet.  More pressure to the East as Hitch showed.  

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6 minutes ago, southerncross said:

Roger, how's the head?

Remarkably good though today has been low on the productivity level. Gotta shift my body clock back to UTC and get on with it tomorrow.

:)

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1 minute ago, rogerfal said:

Remarkably good though today has been low on the productivity level. Gotta shift my body clock back to UTC and get on with it tomorrow.

:)

You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

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Just now, southerncross said:

You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

A practice to be practised (think I have that right but you get my drift)...

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17 minutes ago, rogerfal said:

Remember up thread or more likely the leg three thread someone? explained there are three different models at play here.

Two on Forss tracker and another on the VOR. So far this race ECMWF on Forss tracker has been the most accurate methinks.

However someone else? suggested that for this and the next leg to Auckland ECMWF may not be so reliable.

Apols for not quoting sources etc.

Still waking up here, and before coffee, and was trying to understand what the hell YL75, and Cross, where talking about.

Glad you explained the different models, and maybe you should have added that they are forecasts, often from 6 hrs or more ago.

The VOR tracker uses Great Circle-Squid, the most sophisticated model and still based on EC and GFS and many other sources. They are an official supplier to the VOR:  http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/sponsors/209_SQUID.html

As you said, it's all up thread, and common sense.

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Jeez, thinks are changing fast on the battlefield, there is a real one-design race going on!

Wonder if VOR will keep the tracker Live for a bit longer than 24 hrs. How can we pressurize them, any Twitterers or Facefans around here? 

Let me add that I find the arbitrary updates from Race Experts a bit of a stop-gap solution. Better than nothing, but really VOR should get a grip.

Edited by Fiji Bitter
Added comment.

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AKZO explains initial problems due to propeller fouling 

Quote

Team AkzoNobel were the last team to exit Port Phillip Bay in to the Bass Strait after being slowed down by something caught on the boat’s propeller causing drag for the first few hours. 

More info here

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31 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Wonder if VOR will keep the tracker Live for a bit longer than 24 hrs. How can we pressurize them, any Twitterers or Facefans around here? 

Tracker "Notices" say it will be live for first 48 hours.

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37 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Wonder if VOR will keep the tracker Live for a bit longer than 24 hrs. How can we pressurize them, any Twitterers or Facefans around here?

From the VOR tracker > Leg 4 > Notices (Sorry, I posted this before I noticed Slark had already posted the info)

vor-leg4-1.jpg

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1 hour ago, rogerfal said:

However someone else? suggested that for this and the next leg to Auckland ECMWF may not be so reliable.

That was Miffy I think, right at the beginning of this thread.

 

On 12/27/2017 at 7:11 AM, Miffy said:

Forecasting the Pacific is harder - ECMWF is consistently 5 days better than GFS, but the Pacific is where it has the fewest data points. This leg, and the leg after will be best routed by reverting to historical data & setting intermediate waypoints (let's try and get us around here by such a such a date) - relying on Adrena will send you into a high pressure of hell as you arrive 2 days outside of the forecast accuracy range. For example?

Go to the forecast around New Caledonia and Solomon Islands - pick January 3 and 4. Then click between ECMWF and GFS. 

It'll be bloody insane to do the click a button navigation this time around.

Miffy is usually on the ball, but here he is really talking out of his arse.

"ECMWF is consistently 5 days better than GFS",  WTF ?

" Pacific is where it has the fewest data points", really, 2018? Data comes from space these days.

"reverting to historical data", now he is going completely of his rocket...

Wondering what he had been smoking when he wrote all that, but I stick to my Fiji Bitter...

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4 minutes ago, Slark said:

Tracker "Notices" say it will be live for first 48 hours.

 

3 minutes ago, highcountryrider said:

From the VOR tracker > Leg 4 > Notices

vor-leg4-1.jpg

Thanks guys, missed that. That's good news, but won't get any real work done now...

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Leg 4, Melbourne to Hong Kong, day 2

Annemeike Bes and Trystan Seal on the grinding pedestal Start on board Sun Hung Kai/Scallywag.

Photo by Konrad Frost/Volvo Ocean Race. 02 January, 2018.

Screen Shot 2018-01-02 at 9.09.49 PM.png

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Did Akzo just sail over Mapfre? Fun watching those little dots move around on the screen. Incredibly close. It will likely take the doldrums to scramble things up a bit.

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12 minutes ago, Varan said:

Did Akzo just sail over Mapfre? Fun watching those little dots move around on the screen. Incredibly close. It will likely take the doldrums to scramble things up a bit.

Sailed under, no?

Vestas seems to be in a really good mode right now.  Consistently sailing fast and low in good pressure.

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Potential for divergence as boats clear Cape Howe - how off east to go to avoid the EAC? alternatively, would you hug the coast and hope you don't get caught by a strong southeasterly against the Solomon islands?

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No raw feed from Vestas. Could their OBR be puking hisr guts out?? Amory Ross's not a newbie by any means...

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3 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

No raw feed from Vestas. Could their OBR be puking hisr guts out?? Amory Ross's not a newbie by any means...

I was wondering about that.

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Good to see that Akzo is back in the running, great morale booster, which they needed desperately.

 I was feeling so sorry for them last night that I thought Nicho might jump over the side and swim home...

Same for Scallywag almost, with Witty going for a swim and leaving it all to Wharro...

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19 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

No raw feed from Vestas. Could their OBR be puking hisr guts out?? Amory Ross's not a newbie by any means...

Current score by videos uploaded so far on Leg 4:

  • 3 - Brian Carlin, TTToP
  • 2 - Martin Kruzore, Dongfeng
  • 1 - Ugo Fonollá, MAPFRE
  • 1 - Yann Riou (yay!), Brunel
  • 0 - Sam Greenfield, AkzoNobel
  • 0 - Konrad Frost, Scallywag
  • 0 - Amory Ross, Vestas
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Old news, but interesting to see the  application of OD rules in this case of a missing J0 

Quote

The teams have been pretty much able to get their boats back up to 100%, though Scallywag, who lost their J0 overboard on the last leg (sorry ocean!) have been unable to get their replacement as it is currently in a container on its merry way to Auckland. The logistical side of the Volvo Ocean Race and planning the movement of equipment and leapfrogging gear to different stopovers means it is hard to cater for all eventualities. Instead the team will be taking a replacement 80kg bag that they stack on deck like a sail…….we’re going to love stacking that one!

 From Libby’s B&G blog. More here

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Scally was 1 nm behind DF before their last jibe and crossed 2 nm behind VS.  Great racing so far.

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6 hours ago, southerncross said:

Hard to tell by an arbitrary white line overlaid on the course which is mostly there for viewers.  

I completely agree which is why I posed the question :-)

SS

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Help? Handicapped by my iPad (and still groggy from the celebrations last night), unable to find the nav blog about the East coast ocean currents. It had a link to the Finding Nemo cartooon mentioned in the Live earlier. 

linky, anyone?

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51 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Sailed under, no?

Vestas seems to be in a really good mode right now.  Consistently sailing fast and low in good pressure.

From the tracker, it appeared Azko passed to weather of Mapfre, hence "over", but it has all changed now. Kind of exciting to watch. Sure beats a drag race (although that might be better for us DFRT fans). Now let's see if DF can pass Azko. The donger is good at taking it deep, so I would expect them to pass under Azko if it happens (but at the moment, they appear to be to weather of them).

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At least six of the boats have to be within sight of each other. Should make for some awesome photo ops, even at night with the full moon if its not too cloudy.

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24 minutes ago, stief said:

Help? Handicapped by my iPad (and still groggy from the celebrations last night), unable to find the nav blog about the East coast ocean currents. It had a link to the Finding Nemo cartooon mentioned in the Live earlier. 

linky, anyone?

This?

 

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18 minutes ago, southerncross said:

This?

Thanks . . . No, but that put me on the right track . . . 

From scuttlebut, shore side nav prep report 

might explain who lit the match for VS11 :P

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Kinda wonder if DF has some issue, consistently sailing higher but not faster, atypical for them.

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2 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Kinda wonder if DF has some issue, consistently sailing higher but not faster, atypical for them.

Oh no.  Did they break the boat again?

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1 hour ago, stief said:

Old news, but interesting to see the  application of OD rules in this case of a missing J0 

 From Libby’s B&G blog. More here

Does anyone know the circumstances of the lost J0 to the sea.... or the crazy bend on Scally's starboard stanchions that would otherwise pulled the deck out of any boat we race... Melges or otherwise.... No news from the news room....  No onboard  OBR or onshore R willing to tell a real story?

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7 minutes ago, onedesignracing said:

Does anyone know the circumstances of the lost J0 to the sea.... or the crazy bend on Scally's starboard stanchions that would otherwise pulled the deck out of any boat we race... Melges or otherwise.... No news from the news room....  No onboard  OBR or onshore R willing to tell a real story?

Seem to recall the "bent" stanchions were just the effect of a fisheye type camera lens. Haven't heard when or how they lost the sail...

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9 minutes ago, onedesignracing said:

Does anyone know the circumstances of the lost J0 to the sea.... or the crazy bend on Scally's starboard stanchions that would otherwise pulled the deck out of any boat we race... Melges or otherwise.... No news from the news room....  No onboard  OBR or onshore R willing to tell a real story?

This?  The halyard popped on Leg I but I didn't realize they lost the sail overboard.  

 

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1 hour ago, Varan said:

Who lit the match under Azko... they are smoking. Sailing fast and deep.

I heard that they put turbulence stimulators onto their new mast track, which makes the laminar flow in the boundary layer  reattach sooner in the higher Reynolds numbers they sail in.

if you don't believe me, ask the navigator on WOXI, Ian Burns, he knows all about this stuff, crunching numbers, and 720's too.

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Wow. The 'hairdressers boat' has gone from zeros to heroes, for 2018.

Must have been some serious New Year's Resolutions adopted. 

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