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DA-WOODY

WINDS of FIRE ..... Again ;-(

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And in other news, it’s rainy and dark in Ohio tonight.    Great audio though.   

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Ventura is being heavily hit.  Good luck nacra and others. Room here in Camarillo for people and pets in the unlikely event you are evacuated and reading this. 310 383 349one 

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This one will be ugly as well. The location of the start, low humidities and most of all the wind predicted to be very strong till Friday night. 

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Another big fire - Creek Fire - in LA is taking homes as well. started overnight. My kid is on that one. Gonna be a long couple days...........

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Bless Those who Must Fight these !!!!

 

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7 hours ago, Mckarma said:

My brother, wife and kids evacuate at 4:30 am this morning.  

Where is you brother...  we evacuated my in-laws at 10:00 last night...  just went up the hill with them to get some stuff... there's and two others are untouched.... everything else gone....

 

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10 hours ago, Owen said:

Ventura is being heavily hit.  Good luck nacra and others. Room here in Camarillo for people and pets in the unlikely event you are evacuated and reading this. 310 383 349one 

Thanks for the offer Owen... we're good for now...

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17 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Thanks for the offer Owen... we're good for now...

Sure thing.   Most west coast readers here have probably stopped in Ventura at some point and seen this landmark.  It's one of the more striking pictures I've seen.  

ventura courthouse.jpg

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Here is the view from my in-laws...  freaking weird... all the homes around then are gone with the exception for theirs and two other neighbors...

 

image.jpeg

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Man in a way that would suck if your house was one of the few that remained.  No bad feelings meant narca, but take all the lovie dovie feel good stuff out of the house, pics, cpu pets etc etc etc and light a match.  No way I would want to live among the ruins...  Went to buffalo mtn a couple yrs ago to get a xmass tree.  Drove past a hill that had a house perched on top, untouched.  Everything else around was moonscape..  No fucking way I would live around that.  Even worse with these neighborhoods.  Just streets and ash...  oof..... :ph34r:

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27 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Man in a way that would suck if your house was one of the few that remained.  No bad feelings meant narca, but take all the lovie dovie feel good stuff out of the house, pics, cpu pets etc etc etc and light a match.  No way I would want to live among the ruins...  Went to buffalo mtn a couple yrs ago to get a xmass tree.  Drove past a hill that had a house perched on top, untouched.  Everything else around was moonscape..  No fucking way I would live around that.  Even worse with these neighborhoods.  Just streets and ash...  oof..... :ph34r:

Interesting point you make. I have seen way too many of these neighborhoods in my 37 years of firefighting. Of some interest is that the issue of "survivors guilt" is not uncommon. I've had a number of chats over the years with homeowners after these sort of conflagrations. Both survivors and those who lost their homes. There are varying approaches. Because many of the neighbors rebuild and move back in some survivors relish and look forward to when the neighborhood is rebuilt and their friends return. Some neighbors whether due to insufficient insurance/economic resources, or the desire to not live there again simply never come back. Sometimes, in rare cases, a few of those lots remain vacant for decades. Some of the survivors, whether because they do not want to live feeling vulnerable to a rerun some years downstream or because they simply cannot face the prolonged rebuild process of the neighborhood sell their surviving home - usually a few years later - and relocate. 

Humans are interesting critters.

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My strike team tried to defend and lost all but this one house in a neighborhood in 1993. (We got our asses kicked by the fire). The guy stayed as the neighborhood slowly rebuilt around him.

design-1993-08-04-fire-surviving-house-laguna-beach.jpg

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43 minutes ago, longy said:

IIRC that house was built to resist catching on fire?

Yes, the quote I used at the time (because it received considerable media attention and we used it to encourage rebuilding with certain fire resistive construction elements which went above minimum code requirements) was "Mr XYZ built this house to defend and we defended it". 

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27 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Yes, the quote I used at the time (because it received considerable media attention and we used it to encourage rebuilding with certain fire resistive construction elements which went above minimum code requirements) was "Mr XYZ built this house to defend and we defended it". 

and what are some of those materials ?

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31 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

and what are some of those materials ?

So, if you look at the picture you'll see a fire resistant Class A roof. What you can't see is it was equipped with bird stops as well so embers couldn't be driven up under the tiles. All decks and balconies were enclosed underneath and stuccoed in. No "underneath" exposed as is most often the case with decks hanging over hillsides with veg below.....we call them "fire catchers". You see the deck itself has a minimal overhang instead projecting back into a patio like arrangement in the center of the home. The top of the deck surfaces were coated with a multi layer non-combustible coating. The eaves around the house were either absent or enclosed where they existed eliminating soffits, once again...no fire catchers. The attic gable screens were 1/4" tight mesh which made them ember resistant. Very few attic vent openings, instead relying on a few well constructed dormer eyebrow type vents at each peak that were ember protected. No crawl space vents. The stucco was 1" (7/8" nominal) thick in most places instead of the 3/4" nominal in most construction of the time. Exterior walls were 2X6 instead of 2X4 which allowed R19 insulation to be installed and R30 in the attic. The windows were dual glazed. Lastly, he had very good vegetation set back and mostly "non-combustible" vegetation types planted in low density on the slope below the home.

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2 minutes ago, Point Break said:

So, if you look at the picture you'll see a fire resistant Class A roof. What you can't see is it was equipped with bird stops as well so embers couldn't be driven up under the tiles. All decks and balconies were enclosed underneath and stuccoed in. No "underneath" exposed as is most often the case with decks hanging over hillsides with veg below.....we call them "fire catchers". You see the deck itself has a minimal overhang instead projecting back into a patio like arrangement in the center of the home. The top of the deck surfaces were coated with a multi layer non-combustible coating. The eaves around the house were either absent or enclosed where they existed eliminating soffits, once again...no fire catchers. The attic gable screens were 1/4" tight mesh which made them ember resistant. Very few attic vent openings, instead relying on a few well constructed dormer eyebrow type vents at each peak that were ember protected. No crawl space vents. The stucco was 1" (7/8" nominal) thick in most places instead of the 3/4" nominal in most construction of the time. Exterior walls were 2X6 instead of 2X4 which allowed R19 insulation to be installed and R30 in the attic. The windows were dual glazed. Lastly, he had very good vegetation set back and mostly "non-combustible" vegetation types planted in low density on the slope below the home.

excellent.....however I love large eaves

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2 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

excellent.....however I love large eaves

Depending on where you live you can still have them.......I have large eaves boxed with redwood all the way around the house. Of course I live 1/2 mile from the beach and 20 miles from any brush, not on a brush covered hillside. :lol:

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17 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

 

can you fucking stop cutting and pasting black lettering on gray background...FFS, that's so annoying trying to read

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20 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Here is the view from my in-laws...  freaking weird... all the homes around then are gone with the exception for theirs and two other neighbors...

 

image.jpeg

I can't imagine the construction noise that will follow..... Living in the remaining houses with (first) the demo noises, then the rebuilding.... Jack hammers, bulldozers, clam shell excavators, compressors, pneumatic tools Trucks, and crews of people 7 different radio stations all playing loud enough to drown out the other radios.....

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26 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Strike Teams from Northern California on their way south to help.

Damn...fight the fire on your terms...no loss of life pissing into hurricane force winds....be safe !

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I hear Kevin Miller may have lost his house in VTA.
I know one person who lives in the Apt complex at the base of grant park that burnt.

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28 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I hear Kevin Miller may have lost his house in VTA.
I know one person who lives in the Apt complex at the base of grant park that burnt.

Rupp the MudDock Of FOX rumored to have lost $400 Million Dollar home in the Hills above Beverly

Might be FAKE News

Even if it happenen 

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someone ask for cut and paste text

 

California fires: Navigation apps like Waze sent commuters into flames, drivers say

 

Jefferson Graham and Brett Molina, USA TODAYPublished 3:23 p.m. ET Dec. 7, 2017

     

This was startling scene along Interstate 405 in Los Angeles as a wildfire engulfed the hills. USA TODAY

AFP AFP_UX7PR A FIR USA CA

(Photo: ROBYN BECK, AFP/Getty Images)

CONNECTTWEETLINKEDINCOMMENTEMAILMORE

LOS ANGELES—Users of popular navigation apps like Waze are warning the services directed them to neighborhoods where wildfires forced closures and evacuations. 

The issue stems from the way apps like Waze help users avoid commute nightmares such as heavy traffic or construction. Largely reliant on information supplied by other drivers, when the Google-owned app notices gridlock on a user's route, it will reroute the driver to quieter streets — even they're empty because drivers had fled smoke and the threat of flames.

Waze, which also works with transportation authorities and a team of local map editors to keep the app updated, says on any given day, those enflamed neighborhoods would have been shown as off limits within an hour of two. "We worked really hard Wednesday afternoon to get our maps up to date and accurate," says Waze spokesperson Chelsea Russo.  

Whether because the Santa Ana wind-fueled fires were spreading too fast — or some other reason — drivers Wednesday morning said the app's lag led to directions onto side-streets where fires had already closed them to traffic. 

On assignment to cover the fires, a USA TODAY reporter midmorning Wednesday looked to Waze for an alternative route to the Getty Center museum, after fires had closed the normal route, Interstate 405 north. 

Waze's directions to the Getty Center on Thursday morning

Waze's directions to the Getty Center on Thursday morning (Photo: Waze)

The app suggested backstreets of the mansion-blanketed L.A. neighborhood of Bel Air instead, turning onto Bellagio Road, a thoroughfare that runs into the heart of Bel Air. Not noted by Waze at the time, there was a cop standing at the intersection, stopping drivers from passing through the Bel Air gates because the road led to the belly of the Skirball fire.

On Wednesday morning, there was no indication on the Waze app that any streets on the suggested route would be in fire territory, or even that there was a fire going on.

Waze's directions Thursday morning gave no indication

Waze's directions Thursday morning gave no indication of fire danger (Photo: Waze)

On social media, users asked Waze to update its service so it would steer drivers away from the fire. Other users sought to warn fellow drivers.

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10 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

I can't imagine the construction noise that will follow..... Living in the remaining houses with (first) the demo noises, then the rebuilding.... Jack hammers, bulldozers, clam shell excavators, compressors, pneumatic tools Trucks, and crews of people 7 different radio stations all playing loud enough to drown out the other radios.....

I can't imagine what it would be like coming home after being scurried from your house with only 30 minutes notice in the middle of the night only to see everything in a smoldering heap...   I believe my in-laws will be very happy with the cacophony of rebuilding...  thank you very much!

 

 

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So PB .... Winds are all but gone in NorDAGO

News showing water drops on smoldering patches w no flames showing

BUT THEY SAY ZERO CONTAINMENT 

WTF

What is Containment and who/how is calling it ???

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59 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

So PB .... Winds are all but gone in NorDAGO

News showing water drops on smoldering patches w no flames showing

BUT THEY SAY ZERO CONTAINMENT 

WTF

What is Containment and who/how is calling it ???

Contain versus control can be difficult to distinguish one from the other to the layperson but has very different meanings to us for a variety of reasons which I won't bore you with. The link below does a good job of contrasting and defining the two terms.

% containment is the % of the fire perimeter that has a control line around it that can likely or reasonably stop the forward spread of the fire.

% of control is the % of the fire perimeter that has improved control line around it. Improved meaning a constructed fireline/break or other physical barrier (highway, some roads, rock outcroppings, lakes etc) that they are reasonably sure will not allow any forward progression of the fire. You can have areas that appear "out" because there are currently no visible open flame, but unless a crew has come by and checked the line, extinguished all smoldering vegetation and embers (hot spots) usually at least 50 feet all along the line into the black or burned area. Depending on topography and vegetation height/type you might extend that 100 or 200 feet in. That takes lotsa time and resources.

Also, any expression of "containment" is less precise than "control" because often when fire "containment" is expressed the fire perimeter is not even accurately mapped yet, so its a judgement approximation of progress toward the suppression of the fire that includes some general knowledge of line construction that has taken place.

Another factor important to note is that during the first operational periods of the firefight in urban interface areas, the entire operation is directed at saving homes and other values at risk (major electrical transmission lines and other infrastructure etc). This means all the air drops, all the crews and all the engines are generally just trying to leapfrog moving with the fire and stay ahead of the fire defending those things in the way and putting very little effort into perimeter control or stopping the forward progress of the fire. This is because the calvary is still on the way (can take days to get all the stuff you need to the fire and organized in an effective firefighting effort) and the resource demands of simply defending life and property (highest priority) do not allow allocation of many resources to perimeter control. If you have multiple major fires in the region then then you may wait even longer for sufficient resources to be in place. When you see a big air drop on TV you can't really tell whether its just directed at defending a certain neighborhood on some part of the fire or whether its directed at stopping the forward progress of the perimeter of the fire. They look the same on TV. ALSO....reality check here......when you have a wind driven fire with low humidity and plenty of vegetation such that the fire is moving at a rate of a football field every second.....perimeter control is not going to happen even with all the resources in the world. You need a little help from the weather to get any effective perimeter control accomplished.

There are also terms like "scratch line" which is a control line that is too narrow to hold under extreme conditions but is some line, a "retardant line" which is a control line made up of only air dropped fire retardant that you do not expect to hold by itself (although sometimes depending on weather conditions it does) without ground crews improving it etc etc.  

http://wildfiretoday.com/2009/04/29/contained-or-controlled/

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37 minutes ago, Point Break said:

......when you have a wind driven fire with low humidity and plenty of vegetation such that the fire is moving at a rate of a football field every second.....perimeter control is not going to happen

http://wildfiretoday.com/2009/04/29/contained-or-controlled/

Thank You for the explanation 

A friend used the same figure as did you in a FB post

I did (cheated) the math and I don't see how a fire could go so fast for very long and not be across most any state in no time

Football US field 300' = 100 US Yards

To cover That yoi are HAULING ASS BIGTIME !!!!

So is that correct ???

Asking because it sounds so unbelievable??

 

24837282_1504406122948719_6883023286356686309_o.jpg

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50 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

It would be very interesting to hear the radio traffic during the height of the fight.... 

Its pretty complicated, there are lots of different frequencies a fire works on. Initial attack happens on one frequency but very soon it gets assigned multiple frequencies by area of the fire and purpose of the communication to keep the communications organized. For instance each geographical area of the fire can have its own tactical frequency, there is an air to ground assigned assigned for the purse f communication between ground resources and the firefighting aircraft on the fire, air to air frequencies for the various aircraft to communicate with each other and the Air Attack Supervisor, a command frequency for the communications between command staff, medical frequency for all communications related to a FF injury to arrange extraction and treatment, logistics frequencies for coordinating the needs and movement of equipment and supplies.......it can get pretty complicated, and the Incident Action Plan which is developed and distributed to the firefighting resources every 12 hours includes a communications plan outlining frequencies assigned to the fire and their purpose. I have seen that be two pages.

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16 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

Thank You for the explanation 

A friend used the same figure as did you in a FB post

I did (cheated) the math and I don't see how a fire could go so fast for very long and not be across most any state in no time

Football US field 300' = 100 US Yards

To cover That yoi are HAULING ASS BIGTIME !!!!

So is that correct ???

Asking because it sounds so unbelievable??

 

24837282_1504406122948719_6883023286356686309_o.jpg

Those spread dates are not necessarily consistent over the entire 24 hour period over the entire fire and are influenced by topography, wind and fuel. Those rates are really representative of highest spread rates on portions of the fire. Its indicative that you have very rapid spread rates over the whole fire with extreme rates possible. The entire fire isn't always moving at that rate but parts of it are. You can even get phenomena we call "area ignition" where an entire slope or portion of a fire gets preheated to the point it all ignites at once. I've seen entire slopes ignite all at once and its pretty intimidating.

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2 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Those spread dates are not necessarily consistent over the entire 24 hour period over the entire fire and are influenced by topography, wind and fuel. Those rates are really representative of highest spread rates on portions of the fire. Its indicative that you have very rapid spread rates over the whole fire with extreme rates possible. The entire fire isn't always moving at that rate but parts of it are. You can even get phenomena we call "area ignition" where an entire slope or portion of a fire gets preheated to the point it all ignites at once. I've seen entire slopes ignite all at once and its pretty intimidating.

one of the Worst things i have seen is where say an Auto/;Boat etc. fire with electric wires burning and Gas Burning

someone get the Gas flames to go out But the Fuel & Ignition is Still there waiting Perfect Mix ......... to Explode

 

as for 200+ mph fires, might be better said a Fire can Jump xxxxxx as moving sounds more like an averaged speed

Not picking Nit's And Thank You for sharing your Knowledge

I just know a few people who now think Fires march along at 200+ mph

listening to the clueless reporters filling airtime is SAD !! 

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19 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

one of the Worst things i have seen is where say an Auto/;Boat etc. fire with electric wires burning and Gas Burning

someone get the Gas flames to go out But the Fuel & Ignition is Still there waiting Perfect Mix ......... to Explode

 

as for 200+ mph fires, might be better said a Fire can Jump xxxxxx as moving sounds more like an averaged speed

Not picking Nit's And Thank You for sharing your Knowledge

I just know a few people who now think Fires march along at 200+ mph

listening to the clueless reporters filling airtime is SAD !! 

Example, the Thomas fire went from the start to 31,000 acres in the first 9 hours.......at night..... 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/us/california-wildfire-numbers-trnd/index.html

The Thomas Fire is moving fast. It grew about 31,000 acres in about nine hours -- that's nearly an acre per second. That rate would burn through Manhattan's Central Park in about 14 minutes. As of Friday morning, the fire had grown to 132,000 acres. While it's nowhere nearly as large, the Lilac Fire 45 miles north of San Diego grew exponentially Thursday, from 100 acres to 4,100 in less than 12 hours. On Friday, the Lilac Fire was still 0% contained.

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Example video a couple minutes long showing fire move through in a high intensity crown fire. Note the elapsed time in the lower left corner............

Here is your hoe and chainsaw....get out in front of that................

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1 minute ago, Point Break said:

Example, the Thomas fire went from the start to 31,000 acres in the first 9 hours. 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/us/california-wildfire-numbers-trnd/index.html

Saying that fire moved like shite through a Christmas goose would be an understatement...

We were having pizza at my in laws house at 18:30.... right at about the time the fire was reported... @ 22:00 I saw the bright orange haze out my bedroom window and had my wife call the in laws to let them know I was heading up to get them and to get ready to leave.. 

From where the fire started to where this photo was taken is a good 20 miles...  in 3.5 hours...   

 

image.png.887ed335da5e6f65f4b8cf6d2d34a58f.png

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2 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

It would be very interesting to hear the radio traffic during the height of the fight.... 

Here is a very short example on one frequency of a large fire of a shelter deployment during a brief burnover.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Here is a very short example on one frequency of a large fire of a shelter deployment during a brief burnover.

 

excellent ...thanks

 

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My Dad was born in a suburb of Melbourne, VIC (Australia) in 1919.  He described to me the appalling January 1939 fire which burned nearly five million acres and several towns which were never rebuilt.  Peak daytime temperatures were over 110F, and then a Northerly wind came through.  The fire was advancing so fast that sometimes it jumped a mile or more right across entire valleys and was then burning on the other side.  Nevil Shute described this fire in some of his novels.  He said that the eucalyptus oils had distilled out of the trees in the extreme heat, and formed a highly explosive gas in the valley.  Which then ignited.

It's almost impossible to tackle some of these exceptional things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_bushfires

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48 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

My Dad was born in a suburb of Melbourne, VIC (Australia) in 1919.  He described to me the appalling January 1939 fire which burned nearly five million acres and several towns which were never rebuilt.  Peak daytime temperatures were over 110F, and then a Northerly wind came through.  The fire was advancing so fast that sometimes it jumped a mile or more right across entire valleys and was then burning on the other side.  Nevil Shute described this fire in some of his novels.  He said that the eucalyptus oils had distilled out of the trees in the extreme heat, and formed a highly explosive gas in the valley.  Which then ignited.

It's almost impossible to tackle some of these exceptional things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_bushfires

"THEY" LOVE Fucking eucalyptus around SoCal (thank you greedy railroad)

It's a fucking WEED that eventually turns into a Fire or Wrecking Ball 

Mexican Palm # 2

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No stopping stupid.  Working in hills above Corona Del Mar and smell a fire.  Head out to street as other neighbors rush out and we find a trash bin flaming up.  Guy had dumped paint , thinner etc in bin and it went off - big flames/ bin melted half way down.  Trees all over, shaker roofs - everything ready to fire up save for big winds.  Harbor View lucked out today.

Kicked myself for not dropping a dime on that clown.   Bins clearly marked “No flammables.”   

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8 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

No stopping stupid.  Working in hills above Corona Del Mar and smell a fire.  Head out to street as other neighbors rush out and we find a trash bin flaming up.  Guy had dumped paint , thinner etc in bin and it went off - big flames/ bin melted half way down.  Trees all over, shaker roofs - everything ready to fire up save for big winds.  Harbor View lucked out today.

Kicked myself for not dropping a dime on that clown.   Bins clearly marked “No flammables.”   

If not for stupid I’d have had to chose a different career. Thank you stupid people.......:lol:

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2 hours ago, Point Break said:

If not for stupid I’d have had to chose a different career. Thank you stupid people.......:lol:

And forum :rolleyes:

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Yea, and I heard some stories and said, nah that doesn't happen anymore does it?   Yea right.

Bel Air fire suspicious and I got that from a source on the ground there.  We'll see.  

 

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Sure it does. It’s not frequent (firefighters arson) but it still happens. We had one on my job in 37 years. He went to prison after we caught him. Not unheard of in the BIA hand crews either.

A source on the ground there? Well good thing you’ve got it solved. It normally is harder than that.

Yer point?

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38 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Sure it does. It’s not frequent (firefighters arson) but it still happens. We had one on my job in 37 years. He to prison after we caught him. Not unheard of in the BIA hand crews either.

A source on the ground there? Well good thing you’ve got it solved. It normally is harder than that.

Yer point?

No point to make.  SInce background checks became  norm for volunteers the firefighter/ arsonists have effectivly been weeded out.  Yes?

 My dad had some characters that followed him around when he was a Fire Inspector in NY.   They weren't all "17-23 y.o. white guys from broken families"  (FBI BAU profile).  One guy in particular had old NYC money background and just liked to watch fires.   Weird habit.

 

We're following yet another family member's house ( my neice's in Oxnard) that's about 4 miles from the fires. This last month has been a bit too real for our family.   There's some anger around when you hear from a "source"   (20+ yrs in LA force) that foul play may be at hand in Bel Air.  That's all I'm saying.  But, when I see some rich, entitled 50 y.o. momma's boy in CDM start a fire in front of his house because he's too lazy to take flammables to the disposal yard and instead toss them in the bin when he sees the garbage truck coming....well....I get pissed off at that kind of dumb shit stuff.

 

hat

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I don’t know if the incidence of ff’s committing arson is less. Can’t say I ever read any accounting of the frequency of that. Arson is a funny thing anyway. I recall from a course on arson I took a trillion years ago that there were 9 specific arsonist profiles/motivations. Not sure any background checks would guarantee to weed out all of them. We put a ton of money and effort into preemployment investigations and an occasional idiot/dirtbag gets through. Most volunteer departments can’t afford that intense effort so I’m guessing they get an occasional idiot/dirtbag as well.

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Cited in the Wiki article on Orr they mention that the number of fires in foothills around LA dropped by 90% (IIRC) in a couple years after they put Orr away.  That's crazy but there it is.

The guy from the Bakersfield FD that finally found the lead they needed to catch him ought to get a medal of honor.  He simply noted that fires around Bakersfield increased around the time of a convention of arson investigators there and,  then saw the rise again two years later in a city hosting a  arson investigator's conference. ( Orr attended both conferences)  He collected list of attendees from both and worked the names in areas that investigators worked in (Glendale for Orr) and which had high rates of suspicious fires.   Clever  detective work.

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3 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Cited in the Wiki article on Orr they mention that the number of fires in foothills around LA dropped by 90% (IIRC) in a couple years after they put Orr away.  That's crazy but there it is.

The guy from the Bakersfield FD that finally found the lead they needed to catch him ought to get a medal of honor.  He simply noted that fires around Bakersfield increased around the time of a convention of arson investigators there and,  then saw the rise again two years later in a city hosting a  arson investigator's conference. ( Orr attended both conferences)  He collected list of attendees from both and worked the names in areas that investigators worked in (Glendale for Orr) and which had high rates of suspicious fires.   Clever  detective work.

I followed it real time. 

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Last-night @ Tortilla Jo's / Downtown Disney with an Open-Bar for a Large SD, LA & LV Lawfirm 

Drinks were had and then dimmer was served

(following Pic Not of Law-Firm guests as I'm Not Stupid :))

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about the time the house Margaritas started to taste pretty good, came an Invitation to leave :unsure:

well it was close to about time to go anyway, but that last drink was 1/2 full or empty depending on point of view

It was suggested that the drink could be left as is where is and the walk to the Hotel should begin promptly

suggestions of leaving were made to all party guests

and everyone began the goodbyes and strolling down/out 

no noise outside and no commotion BUT there was a guy at front door telling everyone to Exit to Right and Keep Moving

That's enough to get me Curious about why we can't head the the Left

On the way in I noticed 2 doors down what looked like a construction zone fenced off with a Large Man-Lift sitting in the middle

Well on the way out it looked like the demo work was being stepped a couple notches :o:o

"California FIRE Adventure"  No Wind or it Could have Got Ugly

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I didn't notice the fire while I was up-stairs & didn't bring my BigBoy Kamera & Wasn't givin any time to quit moving :wacko:

2 night ago and could have been a Real "DISCO INFERNO" 

What's the Fuckin Odd's of a place Just catchin Fire When EVERYONE is takin Pix and shooting videos all around 100% of the time

 

 

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On 12/8/2017 at 1:35 PM, Point Break said:

Example video a couple minutes long showing fire move through in a high intensity crown fire. Note the elapsed time in the lower left corner............

Here is your hoe and chainsaw....get out in front of that................

 JFC...

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Central/SoCal #s:  last ten months with less than 1” rain.

 

The 4 seasons:

Drought, Fire, Floods, Mudslides

 

 

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9 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Central/SoCal #s:  last ten months with less than 1” rain.

 

The 4 seasons:

Drought, Fire, Floods, Mudslides

 

 

It is odd weather in Cali. I can remember a couple years where we had a big brush fire one week, and had to staff up our swift water rescue teams the very next week. Had to pull the stuff off all our wildland patrol units (basically a fwd pickup with a utility bed) and re-equip/reconfigure them as swift water rescue units. (We used the same vehicles reconfigured seasonally for both types of responses) The shop/warehouse guys worked all night in one night to get it done. Crazy stuff...........

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Live Now 

 

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The RR has removed all fucking Euc trees in their right of way for safety

CanTrans has 60' 80' Trees in center of I-5 and next to the freeway

If they don't catch fire they WILL Fall on Traffic at some point

here is a response to a request by my to Cut them All Down !!! as did the RR

 

 

Dear Dennis,

 

Thank you for your inquiry and your concern for the safety of the traveling public.  While we make every effort to ensure safety for users of our facility, removal of all Eucalyptus species from our right-of-way is not a recommended or preferred practice within the roadside areas.  The Caltrans roadside is a major contributor to the urban forest within our region and the existing vegetation provides many environmental and quality-of-life benefits to residents of, and visitors to, the State of California.  Trees provide carbon sequestration, reduction of urban ‘heat-island’ effects, improved erosion control, and visual screening. Due to the recent drought conditions, Caltrans regularly receives service requests to inspect and remove potentially hazardous trees within our roadside.  Our Maintenance staff, including Certified Arborists qualified in Tree Assessment, inspect and evaluate these requests to determine the severity of the hazard and whether removal of the tree is the necessary course of action.  In many cases, when corrective pruning cannot eliminate the potential hazard, Caltrans will elect to remove the tree.   Also, during the development of new projects, Caltrans incorporates the most current safety policies and practices when improving the roadside. These include removal of hazardous trees within the project limits.  Be advised, we have eliminated the use of Eucalyptus specimens in areas near vehicular traffic and areas of frequent contact with pedestrians.   Again, the safety of the traveling public is our priority.   Thank you for your inquiry.

The 1st step is Admitting there "IS" A Problem B)

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Some things never change.............

 

Grumman should come back and start building the Avengers and CA should have about 20 of them based in Fresno or Salinas....  Short Field capability (aircraft carrier) and a heavy load capacity....   Or the state should buy a few Supper Scoopers....

 

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21 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Grumman should come back and start building the Avengers and CA should have about 20 of them based in Fresno or Salinas....  Short Field capability (aircraft carrier) and a heavy load capacity....   Or the state should buy a few Supper Scoopers....

 

this is only a temp inconvenience to the Fucks planning our fate

once they clear the rescued horses from Del Mar Race Track they will go back to trying to Build More Fucking Housing

same goes for SD Stadium that was used the same not that long ago 

NOTHING WILL BE LEARNED FROM ANY OF THIS !!!

Horse Barns will be rebuilt of Wood and houses will be built same as they were 

It doesnt have to But it Will happen Again and Again

:-(

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54 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

Grumman should come back and start building the Avengers and CA should have about 20 of them based in Fresno or Salinas....  Short Field capability (aircraft carrier) and a heavy load capacity....   Or the state should buy a few Supper Scoopers....

 

Aerial firefighting is an interesting component. The Super Scoopers are okay....LA County leases a couple each fire season and I have used them on 1 fire. meh. The VLATs are pretty impressive and can put down one heck of a retardant line but depending on where you want to use them, their turnaround time can be really excessive (the scoopers have them beat there providing there is a suitable body of water nearby) and they are VERY expensive to lease on a fire. The Grumman S2-T's have been the workhorse of the tanker fleet for quite a while although I read that France is going to replace theirs with the Bombardier Q-400. Not sure what Cali is going to do there....those airframes are very old. The tankers are solid for laying retardant but for close line support you have to have rotary wing.....especially the type 1 heavies. Any one type of aircraft isn't gonna get it done! Link below is to an overview/recognition guide of the various firefighting aircraft published by Cal Fire.

AviationGuide_FINAL_web.pdf

 

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18 hours ago, Point Break said:

Aerial firefighting is an interesting component. The Super Scoopers are okay....LA County leases a couple each fire season and I have used them on 1 fire. meh. The VLATs are pretty impressive and can put down one heck of a retardant line but depending on where you want to use them, their turnaround time can be really excessive (the scoopers have them beat there providing there is a suitable body of water nearby) and they are VERY expensive to lease on a fire. The Grumman S2-T's have been the workhorse of the tanker fleet for quite a while although I read that France is going to replace theirs with the Bombardier Q-400. Not sure what Cali is going to do there....those airframes are very old. The tankers are solid for laying retardant but for close line support you have to have rotary wing.....especially the type 1 heavies. Any one type of aircraft isn't gonna get it done! Link below is to an overview/recognition guide of the various firefighting aircraft published by Cal Fire.

AviationGuide_FINAL_web.pdf

 

Thanks

They now have the electric and gas back up an running bet we're being told that Cal Fire and police department has to sign off on letting us back it..  I can understand the police dept, but what does Cal Fire have to do outside of the obvious to consider the area safe?

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news in DAGO says Lilac Fire 80% Contained Yet All Evactuations are Removed = Welcome Back

Fire is Only 20% Contained 

PB ..... WTF ????

I not B goot wid da matth

How good is 80% Contained??

No mention of Fire now on other side of Large Swath of No Fuel remaining after burning away ??

From past explanations I think they are saying the Fire is Trapped and is 20% of the size it was

or 20% is still runningamuck

we had a Bum Camp in the SD Riverbed

the Bums are enjoying a Fire along the River where WE would get a Misdemeanor for walking through in the daytime But They get to Live there :-(

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2 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Thanks

They now have the electric and gas back up an running bet we're being told that Cal Fire and police department has to sign off on letting us back it..  I can understand the police dept, but what does Cal Fire have to do outside of the obvious to consider the area safe?

You know, of all the things we do well in the world of wildland firefighting, that is not one of them. I think we could allow folks to reoccupy sooner, sometimes much sooner than we do. We're aware of that but culturally its hard to move that thinking forward. Even myself who was a strong advocate of reoccupying sooner than later would hesitate sometimes and hang onto the evacuation status longer than I should have (in retrospect as I critiqued my own performance after large fires). Most of the reasons are good reasons but selfish on our part and upon thoughtful consideration do not outweigh the goal of letting people back into their neighborhoods and homes. The primary reason is of course "safety", meaning that if there is still active firefighting its just not "safe" to have people in that area. But you'll find the evacuation orders remain in place long - sometimes days - after the active firefighting is over.

That is generally because 1) the vegetation around the homes has not been mopped up sufficiently to ensure beyond any reasonable - and often unreasonable - possibility you could get a reignition in partially consumed brush that could flare up and threaten a home and people in it. 2) and this is really pretty selfish.....the area is simply easier to transit/work in with fire engines and crews working if there is no traffic and no people in there. This is especially true in neighborhoods where the ingress/egress is limited to only one or two avenues or up long winding two lane roads. For instance by way of one single example, if I have an engine working a road like that mopping up, they will spend the shift (its worse at night) driving just a little bit each time, pulling hose off the engine and down into the brush, then pumping the hose and the pump control panel that the operator will stand at with his back to the road is ALWAYS on the left side of the engine exposed to traffic. Then after they pickup that spot, they reload the hose and move - maybe only 50 or 100 feet - to the next spot and repeat the process. All this while pulled over as far as you can on the shoulder but it is rarely completely out of the lane. So drivers coming and going who are not always paying attention have to take action to avoid that engine and crew working on the shoulder of the road. Multiply that scenario by all the possibilities when working in and around neighborhoods and its simply easier to manage if no-one else is around. We could (and often do) manage it well but its easier when "empty". We pick easier more often than we should.

Lastly, the extreme professional embarrassment and possible adverse impact on your career if you let everybody back in and then the wind shifts and you have to reimpose and manage a large evacuation again. Thats real bad ju-ju for the guy who lets that happen. Of all the things I dealt with during large fire operations as a member of the command team, the decision of when to pull the trigger to evacuate because it is a hugely disruptive drawn out process and you have to make the call well in advance of the fire arrival to avoid having people caught on the roads when the fire arrives....and I did that A LOT. For a few years one of my assignments on the command team was to scout/preplan areas at risk and taking into account weather, topography, fire behavior and the fuels or brush, the characteristics of the area at risk as they impacted both evacuation and firefighting (ingress/egress, type of construction, number of people, setbacks and other pre-existing clearance characteristics of the area/neighborhood) in order to predict the possible rate of growth and establish geographical "trigger points". The purpose of those trigger points is that if the fire should reach that point it would trigger evacuations and along with that an approximation of the number and type of resources that would be needed to defend the values at risk so the command team could move or order additional resources as necessary. I enjoyed that task immensely as it brought together all the skills and experience of the profession in an intellectual exercise that produced a tangible and necessary product. I liked it.

Additionally, large scale evacuations are cop intensive and you gotta commit lotsa cops for at least 12ish hours maybe longer to get it done safely. And....lifting the evacuation order for the reasons I mentioned above. 

I did not like those decisions and still think we could be better at it.

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

You know, of all the things we do well in the world of wildland firefighting, that is not one of them. I think we could allow folks to reoccupy sooner, sometimes much sooner than we do. We're aware of that but culturally its hard to move that thinking forward. Even myself who was a strong advocate of reoccupying sooner than later would hesitate sometimes and hang onto the evacuation status longer than I should have (in retrospect as I critiqued my own performance after large fires). Most of the reasons are good reasons but selfish on our part and upon thoughtful consideration do not outweigh the goal of letting people back into their neighborhoods and homes. The primary reason is of course "safety", meaning that if there is still active firefighting its just not "safe" to have people in that area. But you'll find the evacuation orders remain in place long - sometimes days - after the active firefighting is over.

That is generally because 1) the vegetation around the homes has not been mopped up sufficiently to ensure beyond any reasonable - and often unreasonable - possibility you could get a reignition in partially consumed brush that could flare up and threaten a home and people in it. 2) and this is really pretty selfish.....the area is simply easier to transit/work in with fire engines and crews working if there is no traffic and no people in there. This is especially true in neighborhoods where the ingress/egress is limited to only one or two avenues or up long winding two lane roads. For instance by way of one single example, if I have an engine working a road like that mopping up, they will spend the shift (its worse at night) driving just a little bit each time, pulling hose off the engine and down into the brush, then pumping the hose and the pump control panel that the operator will stand at with his back to the road is ALWAYS on the left side of the engine exposed to traffic. Then after they pickup that spot, they reload the hose and move - maybe only 50 or 100 feet - to the next spot and repeat the process. All this while pulled over as far as you can on the shoulder but it is rarely completely out of the lane. So drivers coming and going who are not always paying attention have to take action to avoid that engine and crew working on the shoulder of the road. Multiply that scenario by all the possibilities when working in and around neighborhoods and its simply easier to manage if no-one else is around. We could (and often do) manage it well but its easier when "empty". We pick easier more often than we should.

Lastly, the extreme professional embarrassment and possible adverse impact on your career if you let everybody back in and then the wind shifts and you have to reimpose and manage a large evacuation again. Thats real bad ju-ju for the guy who lets that happen. Of all the things I dealt with during large fire operations as a member of the command team, the decision of when to pull the trigger to evacuate because it is a hugely disruptive drawn out process and you have to make the call well in advance of the fire arrival to avoid having people caught on the roads when the fire arrives....and I did that A LOT. For a few years one of my assignments on the command team was to scout/preplan areas at risk and taking into account weather, topography, fire behavior and the fuels or brush, the characteristics of the area at risk as they impacted both evacuation and firefighting (ingress/egress, type of construction, number of people, setbacks and other pre-existing clearance characteristics of the area/neighborhood) in order to predict the possible rate of growth and establish geographical "trigger points". The purpose of those trigger points is that if the fire should reach that point it would trigger evacuations and along with that an approximation of the number and type of resources that would be needed to defend the values at risk so the command team could move or order additional resources as necessary. I enjoyed that task immensely as it brought together all the skills and experience of the profession in an intellectual exercise that produced a tangible and necessary product. I liked it.

Additionally, large scale evacuations are cop intensive and you gotta commit lotsa cops for at least 12ish hours maybe longer to get it done safely. And....lifting the evacuation order for the reasons I mentioned above. 

I did not like those decisions and still think we could be better at it.

I can't even imagine how tricky that must be with 10% Santa Anna humidity blowing in at 50 plus. Kudos. 

 

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