• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sean

Jerusalem

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

In other news, Canada has decided to recognize Detroit as the US capital.

:lol: 

.....thats good on so many levels-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, madohe said:

Which one?

There's 67 cities, towns, villages named Springfield in the USA......

Don’t you get it?

All of them!!!!!!  All of them!!!!

Its so bloody obvious!!!!!!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But seriously, ladies and germs, Trump has this wierd notion that conflict is cool.  Way cool.  Cleansing even.  Sets things aright.  

Trick is surviving it, on any level, especially now that he’s broadening his horizons.....

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Actually, they were intending to stop a genocide which is still ongoing.

But when Japan uses the same reasoning to bomb Pearl Harbour it's suddenly bad?

If they lose, it is quite bad.  If they win, it's just another of their new harbors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reality is, it’s probably a nothing burger.

what about all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

truth is, Trumps America is isolationist, and the US is giving up the mantle of leader of the free world to the old Balance of Power sort of regime. 

 

About the only global leadership that that still exists from the US is military, and given the readiness of the forces, that’s not even truly global anymore. 

 

Basically, I don’t think what Trump does even matters. A few rioters will die, and that will be about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, madohe said:

Which one?

There's 67 cities, towns, villages named Springfield in the USA......

The one where The Simpsons live. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Israel is an artificially created modern state..Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Palestine at the time of modern Israels creation..nothing has changed in international law...Israel is Illegally occupying Palestinian territory..fact.

Given that pretty much *EVERY* state in that area is artificially constructed following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 (not to mention almost every state in Africa and the current Indonesian Empire), your statement might be technically correct, but it's irrelevant.

Ask the Kurds.....

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Reality is, it’s probably a nothing burger.

what about all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

truth is, Trumps America is isolationist, and the US is giving up the mantle of leader of the free world to the old Balance of Power sort of regime. 

 

About the only global leadership that that still exists from the US is military, and given the readiness of the forces, that’s not even truly global anymore. 

 

Basically, I don’t think what Trump does even matters. A few rioters will die, and that will be about it.

Poor beggars - there’s a lot happening over there tectonically (like in Saudi Arabia & Iran) as forward thinkers prepare, because the Chinese are coming, baby!  On the Silk Road!  

The Palestinians are about to be really screwed as Trump formally hands the Century over to the Chinese.  

And Donnie and Bebe hold hands and then dance cheek to cheek.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Amati said:

Poor beggars - there’s a lot happening over there tectonically (like in Saudi Arabia & Iran) as forward thinkers prepare, because the Chinese are coming, baby!  On the Silk Road!  

The Palestinians are about to be really screwed as Trump formally hands the Century over to the Chinese.  

And Donnie and Bebe hold hands and then dance cheek to cheek.

 

Yep. Who gives a crap if yesterday’s landlord wants to move the bathroom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Yep. Who gives a crap if yesterday’s landlord wants to move the bathroom?

Nice-  and a Real Estate metaphor too!

Well played.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Dorado said:
  • Vig used to call me "elf boy", and I'd call him "filthy human". As an Elf, I never got a scratch on me, never got dirty. And Vig would come out with blood and sweat all over him. And he'd say to me, "Oh, go manicure your nails."
  • Elf Envy...they all had it.

 Can't prove it....but you just know elf-shit doesn't stink and an elf-farts smell just like fresh-baked bread. 

 

 Anywho...all this about moving the embassy to Jerusalem is a bit premature. The cost of building a new embassy/bunker after the installation of 9/11/BENGHAZI!!!!!! codes is high enough that if you have to ask you can't afford it, and will take a significant amount of time to just start rolling. This particular one will need all the bells, whistles, bollards, and three foot thick re-bar filled walls that can be mustered up...and check out the price of that modern bomb-proof glass sometime, if you wanna be sticker-shocked right out of your socks.

 State will demand at least several hundred million from Congress before lifting a finger. Even if Congress coughs up the cash it will be about five years, I reckon.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mark K said:

 Can't prove it....but you just know elf-shit doesn't stink and an elf-farts smell just like fresh-baked bread. 

 

 Anywho...all this about moving the embassy to Jerusalem is a bit premature. The cost of building a new embassy/bunker after the installation of 9/11/BENGHAZI!!!!!! codes is high enough that if you have to ask you can't afford it, and will take a significant amount of time to just start rolling. This particular one will need all the bells, whistles, bollards, and three foot thick re-bar filled walls that can be mustered up...and State will demand at least several hundred million from Congress before lifting a finger. Even if Congress coughs up the cash it will be about five years, I reckon.  

Apparently there is a building in town they could use right now, if they want to.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Amati said:

Apparently there is a building in town they could use right now, if they want to.  

 US consulate Jerusalem may swap signs with the embassy in Tel-Aviv, but most if not all staff will remain right where they are.  It will be easy to reverse this when Trump is gone.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mark K said:

 US consulate Jerusalem may swap signs with the embassy in Tel-Aviv, but most if not all staff will remain right where they are.  It will be easy to reverse this when Trump is gone.  

Yep, call the current embassy in Tel Aviv the annex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mark K said:

 US consulate Jerusalem may swap signs with the embassy in Tel-Aviv, but most if not all staff will remain right where they are.  It will be easy to reverse this when Trump is gone.  

It will even be easier when he sees how big a mistake he made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Yep, call the current embassy in Tel Aviv the annex.

US Consulate Tel Aviv. Everybody else's embassy is in Tel Aviv, so that's where the Israeli diplos will all be anyway. They aren't likely to relish the commute to Jerusalem just for the US.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

It will even be easier when he sees how big a mistake he made.

My WAG is this was the price a few Israeli-centric Reps and Senators put on their vote for that ridiculous tax bill. That bill provided an excellent opportunity for extortion and you can bet the house some used it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mark K said:

My WAG is this was the price a few Israeli-centric Reps and Senators put on their vote for that ridiculous tax bill. That bill provided an excellent opportunity for extortion and you can bet the house some used it. 

My wag is this is a direct appeasement to Sheldon Adelson, who will now be in the pocket for direct funding of just about anything the GOP wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

My wag is this is a direct appeasement to Sheldon Adelson, who will now be in the pocket for direct funding of just about anything the GOP wants.

Possible, but bear in mind Sheldon has proven to be an incredible dope with his money, he allowed Newt to scam him for millions. An easy mark is not capable of wielding great power and Shelton is considered one of the easiest. In Bibi's mind, something very close to what the Soviets called a useful idiot.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mark K said:

Possible, but bear in mind Sheldon has proven to be an incredible dope with his money, he allowed Newt to scam him for millions. An easy mark is not capable of wielding great power and Shelton is considered one of the easiest.  

Empowering the gang that couldn't shoot straight may have some value to it after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Empowering the gang that couldn't shoot straight may have some value to it after all.

Trumps display of abject love for Israel may do for them what it has done for Russia. The Izzies may be making a mistake in strategery. Tee Vee talking heads may wish to to re-consider their AIPAC instilled views. A stupid friend can be more dangerous than an enemy. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2017 at 5:11 PM, Raz'r said:

There's a UN recognized gov't in Israel. It's capitol is Jerusalem.

Trump acknowledging the fact is perhaps a strategic error, certainly seems buffoonish, but well within his rights as Prez.

Mitch, if you keep saying stuff like that - you are going to be labeled a trump supporter and a sycophant.  Because to some here, anything that is remotely positive or at the least not negative about trump equals you must love him and you obviously voted for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2017 at 7:28 PM, Battlecheese said:

But when Japan uses the same reasoning to bomb Pearl Harbor it's suddenly bad?

The reasoning is sound if you win.  We won and so did Israel.  Also the difference is we were not about to attack Japan, so they had no immediate legitimate reason to attack us to stop us from doing the same.  Unlike the 6 day war, the arabs were massing for an invasion.  Big difference.

I also fixed your spelling error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Because might is right? :sarcend:

Actually it is.  Because those with the might get to write the history books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2017 at 12:43 PM, Sean said:

 

I fear this is going to be a huge mistake. The guy really knows how to fuck things up.

 

U.S. to Recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital, Trump Says, Alarming Middle East Leaders

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/world/middleeast/american-embassy-israel-trump-move.html

President Trump told Israeli and Arab leaders on Tuesday that he plans to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a symbolically fraught move that would upend decades of American policy and upset efforts to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Mr. Trump is expected to announce his decision on Wednesday, two days after the expiration of a deadline for him to decide whether to keep the American Embassy in Tel Aviv.

Palestinian officials said Mr. Trump told the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, that the United States would move the embassy to Jerusalem. Jordan said the president gave a similar message to King Abdullah II.

About time!!!!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2017 at 6:53 PM, jerseyguy said:

Jewish friend of mine for some 40 years told me the other day that he and his wife were moving to "the promised land."  Since he has never been in Israel and does not speak the language, and is not particularly religious  I looked rather puzzled.  Why Israel I asked.  Israel?  Hell no, Miami Beach!  True story.

truth be told, he still won't speak the language.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Ariel Sharon said in 2000, that Israel had the absolute right to visit the Temple Mount any time it desired. That resulted in something like 3000 deaths. I hope Trump, Sheldon Adelson, along with most of the Evangelicals in this country know what they are doing, this will wreck any chance of peace for decades and could bring terrorism right to our doorstep.

Didn't Einstein say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity?  How have the last several decades of peace worked out so far???  

I am a firm believer that many of these simmering conflicts that are kept in check by the US or the UN actually lead to MORE death.  Because it keeps this simmering pot going for literally decades when a good old fashioned short and sharp bloody war can often get this shit over with once and for all.  Syria is a perfect example of that.  Had we allowed it to run its course, it likely would have been over with in a few months.  A few hundred people would have died.  Maybe a few thousand.  And then life would have gone on like normal.  AS it is we have what..... 400K dead and millions displaced.  Another million + refugees in Europe.  Whole cities reduced to rubble.  Daesh moved in to fill a vacuum....

Sometimes the only way a long standing feud finally gets resolved is to fight it out to there the other side is completely and utterly defeated and has no appetite to fight anymore.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Didn't Einstein say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity?  How have the last several decades of peace worked out so far???  

I am a firm believer that many of these simmering conflicts that are kept in check by the US or the UN actually lead to MORE death.  Because it keeps this simmering pot going for literally decades when a good old fashioned short and sharp bloody war can often get this shit over with once and for all.  Syria is a perfect example of that.  Had we allowed it to run its course, it likely would have been over with in a few months.  A few hundred people would have died.  Maybe a few thousand.  And then life would have gone on like normal.  AS it is we have what..... 400K dead and millions displaced.  Another million + refugees in Europe.  Whole cities reduced to rubble.  Daesh moved in to fill a vacuum....

Sometimes the only way a long standing feud finally gets resolved is to fight it out to there the other side is completely and utterly defeated and has no appetite to fight anymore.  

Israel did a thorough job on Gaza, it didn't give them a thing in return.

4a77bf25-d410-421e-be39-2f061c269a22-620

gaza2014.jpg?itok=eRGSRlQ0

Anything worse than this is a war crime Jeff, Israel cannot keep getting away with this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Didn't Einstein say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity?  How have the last several decades of peace worked out so far???  

I am a firm believer that many of these simmering conflicts that are kept in check by the US or the UN actually lead to MORE death.  Because it keeps this simmering pot going for literally decades when a good old fashioned short and sharp bloody war can often get this shit over with once and for all.  Syria is a perfect example of that.  Had we allowed it to run its course, it likely would have been over with in a few months.  A few hundred people would have died.  Maybe a few thousand.  And then life would have gone on like normal.  AS it is we have what..... 400K dead and millions displaced.  Another million + refugees in Europe.  Whole cities reduced to rubble.  Daesh moved in to fill a vacuum....

Sometimes the only way a long standing feud finally gets resolved is to fight it out to there the other side is completely and utterly defeated and has no appetite to fight anymore.  

So go and fight.

 I have no appetite for this bullshit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, captpiratedog said:
13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Israel is an artificially created modern state..Jerusalem was divided between Israel and Palestine at the time of modern Israels creation..nothing has changed in international law...Israel is Illegally occupying Palestinian territory..fact.

Oh brother! Good Grief!!... 

Yeah, meli is outdoing herself on this one.  Meli, I hate to break it to you - but the entire FUCKING middle east is an artificially created modern state.  And for that matter, so was Pusstrailia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, meli is outdoing herself on this one.  Meli, I hate to break it to you - but the entire FUCKING middle east is an artificially created modern state.  And for that matter, so was Pusstrailia.

And so is the USA and pretty much everywhere when you come right down to it......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Gissie said:

At least Trump won't have to build a wall if he moves to Jerusalem. 

Oh be still my heart! Could it happen? really? could we rid ourselves of that puss bubble that easily? Just send him off to the land of the wandering Jew, and set him loose on the tribe? Really?.....  Wouldn't the Kushners have an issue with that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

And so is the USA and pretty much everywhere when you come right down to it......

Agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, meli is outdoing herself on this one.  Meli, I hate to break it to you - but the entire FUCKING middle east is an artificially created modern state.  And for that matter, so was Pusstrailia.

Nah, not us. We took the entire country off of the original inhabitants fair & square...... because our ancestors had more guns and a better logistic tail than the original inhabitants.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Nah, not us. We took the entire country off of the original inhabitants fair & square...... because our ancestors had more guns and a better logistic tail than the original inhabitants.

FKT

Now see.... that's ^ the good old fashioned way of doing nation building.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Nah, not us. We took the entire country off of the original inhabitants fair & square...... because our ancestors had more guns and a better logistic tail than the original inhabitants.

FKT

true, but we have been giving back their "capitals" for the last 40 years or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shortforbob said:

true, but we have been giving back their "capitals" for the last 40 years or so.

We're giving the descendants of the survivors (or those who hid out well in the remote parts) some of the land back but we're not ceding any sovereignty in the process. I think Native Title land is exempt from land taxes & council rates though.

With few & rare exceptions the degree of interbreeding is such that many visibly white Australians have Aboriginal ancestry, and the local mob who own the land on 2 of my borders resemble their Irish side more than their Aboriginal side. I frankly don't care either - it's as much culture as genetics. Just it's funny when some of them go off on TV talking about how our ancestors screwed over their ancestors, when the fact is that *their* ancestors screwed over their *other* ancestors. Personally I'd like the French to pay reparations for the Norman invasion of Britain.......

And the same pretty much applies to the entire Middle East which is why I've adopted the 'pox on the lot of them' POV.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

The reasoning is sound if you win.  We won and so did Israel.  Also the difference is we were not about to attack Japan, so they had no immediate legitimate reason to attack us to stop us from doing the same.  Unlike the 6 day war, the arabs were massing for an invasion.  Big difference.

israel attacked egypt because of a trade embargo. Japan attacked Hawaii because of an oil embargo. (and because the US was obviously looking for any feeble excuse to enter the war).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

israel attacked egypt because of a trade embargo. Japan attacked Hawaii because of an oil embargo. (and because the US was obviously looking for any feeble excuse to enter the war).

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor to cripple the US FLEET to prevent the US interfering with their nation building plans.  The last thing most Americans wanted was to get involved in another European war.   FDR may have wanted to go in, the majority of the country not so much.  Israel took a preventive first strike in a war that as going to happen with in days if not hours.  Not even a close comparison.  Did Britain order any embargoes against Japan?  Seems they were attacked at the same time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2017 at 6:33 PM, Shortforbob said:

Really? Just because Zionists say say doesn't make it so.

so you'll be moving washington back to plymouth shortly? Seeing as your occupation of north america os just a small period of historical time?

BTW..this is just about the best and saddest summary of the situation I've ever encountered.

American exceptionalism. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Israel did a thorough job on Gaza, it didn't give them a thing in return.

4a77bf25-d410-421e-be39-2f061c269a22-620

gaza2014.jpg?itok=eRGSRlQ0

Anything worse than this is a war crime Jeff, Israel cannot keep getting away with this.

Sure they can.  Trump just gave them the green light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

We're giving the descendants of the survivors (or those who hid out well in the remote parts) some of the land back but we're not ceding any sovereignty in the process. I think Native Title land is exempt from land taxes & council rates though.

With few & rare exceptions the degree of interbreeding is such that many visibly white Australians have Aboriginal ancestry, and the local mob who own the land on 2 of my borders resemble their Irish side more than their Aboriginal side. I frankly don't care either - it's as much culture as genetics. Just it's funny when some of them go off on TV talking about how our ancestors screwed over their ancestors, when the fact is that *their* ancestors screwed over their *other* ancestors. Personally I'd like the French to pay reparations for the Norman invasion of Britain.......

And the same pretty much applies to the entire Middle East which is why I've adopted the 'pox on the lot of them' POV.

FKT

there's a small glaring similarity here..The Palestinians are still IN east Jerusalem...There are living people over in Gaza that walked and farmed Israeli occupied land. Land that was farmed by their ancestors for hundreds of years..AND there are often our precious written records to prove that.

Now one could do the right thing and offer these Palestinians a kind of native title over land that they used to occupy within the pre 67 borders.

But the land that is STILL disputed territory? NOPE.

I think something that people are failing for is the Israeli propaganda. Naming their capital JERUSALEM, instead of WEST JERUSALEM is putting it into peoples minds that they have a legitimate claim to the whole area..legitimising their occupation and illegal settlements...something they have long striven for..so Trump doing what he did assists this perception.

Fuck, if most Americans didn't know Puerto Ricans were actually Americans, what hope do Palestinians have in having East Jerusalem recognised as their home and future Capital? . 

How long now until the clearances of EAST JERUSALEM look totally legitimate in most peoples eyes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Fuck, if most Americans didn't know Peuto Ricans were actually Americans, what hope do Palestinians have in having East Jerusalem recognised as their home and future Capital? . 

Not even close and I've been there, have you?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you haven't been there?  It's great.  I ate at a bunch of open air restaurants where the food was cheap and great.  And I was in shock over how cheap rum was.  A tropical paradise.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

there's a small glaring similarity here..The Palestinians are still IN east Jerusalem...There are living people over in Gaza that walked and farmed Israeli occupied land. Land that was farmed by their ancestors for hundreds of years..AND there are often our precious written records to prove that.

Now one could do the right thing and offer these Palestinians a kind of native title over land that they used to occupy within the pre 67 borders.

But the land that is STILL disputed territory? NOPE.

I think something that people are failing for is the Israeli propaganda. Naming their capital JERUSALEM, instead of WEST JERUSALEM is putting it into peoples minds that they have a legitimate claim to the whole area..legitimising their occupation and illegal settlements...something they have long striven for..so Trump doing what he did assists this perception.

Fuck, if most Americans didn't know Puerto Ricans were actually Americans, what hope do Palestinians have in having East Jerusalem recognised as their home and future Capital? . 

How long now until the clearances of EAST JERUSALEM look totally legitimate in most peoples eyes?

Fact is, the reason I say 'pox on the lot of them' is because the religious nut-case Israelis act like Nazis in their 'ethnic cleansing' of the land they took after the 1967 war. I know they're a subset but they're driving the agenda so everyone wears it IMO.

The religious nut-case Palestinians also act like Nazis except they have fewer guns. Firing missiles from behind hospitals & schools is the act of a terrorist and designed to inflict death & suffering on your own people from the counterfire. Asking the Israelis not to counterstrike is idiotic, everyone would in their situation.

Neither side actually wants a settlement except on their own terms and those terms are pretty close to 'winner takes all'.

We could apply the 'laws of war' from the pre-WW1 period where losers pay reparations in territory and/or money. In which case the Israelis are entitled to act as they do. But that's not a position I have or will support.

So a pox on the lot of them. Maybe after another 50_ years of low-level killings everyone will be so exhausted that they'll compromise. But I doubt it.

FKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Fact is, the reason I say 'pox on the lot of them' is because the religious nut-case Israelis act like Nazis in their 'ethnic cleansing' of the land they took after the 1967 war. I know they're a subset but they're driving the agenda so everyone wears it IMO.

The religious nut-case Palestinians also act like Nazis except they have fewer guns. Firing missiles from behind hospitals & schools is the act of a terrorist and designed to inflict death & suffering on your own people from the counterfire. Asking the Israelis not to counterstrike is idiotic, everyone would in their situation.

Neither side actually wants a settlement except on their own terms and those terms are pretty close to 'winner takes all'.

We could apply the 'laws of war' from the pre-WW1 period where losers pay reparations in territory and/or money. In which case the Israelis are entitled to act as they do. But that's not a position I have or will support.

So a pox on the lot of them. Maybe after another 50_ years of low-level killings everyone will be so exhausted that they'll compromise. But I doubt it.

FKT

Your's is an understandable position but for the bolded bit..I assume you're referring to Gaza?

What would you do if holed up in a massive prison?  It's like Israel expects them to sit there until quietly and if they object the only way they can with a mortar or three.. teach them a lesson with 500 in return.

I've often wondered what the Israelis would do if 100,000 women and children just walked out of Gaza?

Would they be helpless to do anything about it?.or fire on them..stating there were terrorists under those robes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Yep, call the current embassy in Tel Aviv the annex.

Things reverting to the way they were, after President Trump is gone, is the most likely scenario, IMHO.  Which makes this decision stupid and expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

there's a small glaring similarity here..The Palestinians are still IN east Jerusalem...There are living people over in Gaza that walked and farmed Israeli occupied land. Land that was farmed by their ancestors for hundreds of years..AND there are often our precious written records to prove that.

Now one could do the right thing and offer these Palestinians a kind of native title over land that they used to occupy within the pre 67 borders.

But the land that is STILL disputed territory? NOPE.

I think something that people are failing for is the Israeli propaganda. Naming their capital JERUSALEM, instead of WEST JERUSALEM is putting it into peoples minds that they have a legitimate claim to the whole area..legitimising their occupation and illegal settlements...something they have long striven for..so Trump doing what he did assists this perception.

Fuck, if most Americans didn't know Puerto Ricans were actually Americans, what hope do Palestinians have in having East Jerusalem recognised as their home and future Capital? . 

How long now until the clearances of EAST JERUSALEM look totally legitimate in most peoples eyes?

Short version - people that hate each other are crammed into one area. No one is leaving. They all dream of killing each other. One side lacks the tech to actually kill all of the other side and the other side doesn't want the bad rep of killing all of that side at once.

Back in the Day they would just fight it out, the men on the losing side would be killed, the children sold as slaves, and the women sold as sex slaves. The losers would just vanish from history and the winners would live peacefully ever after or until another tribe showed up to give them a go. Now we have the UN and Geneva Convention and shit so the conflict keeps getting frozen in place.

Also each side has powerful external friends and some of those friends like to see their weapons beta tested ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Things reverting to the way they were, after President Trump is gone, is the most likely scenario, IMHO.  Which makes this decision stupid and expensive.

Why would Pence reverse them?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As expected - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel/hamas-calls-for-palestinian-uprising-in-response-to-trumps-jerusalem-plan-idUSKBN1E11BR

 

JERUSALEM/GAZA (Reuters) - The Islamist group Hamas urged Palestinians on Thursday to abandon peace efforts and launch a new uprising against Israel in response to U.S. President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as its capital.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haters are gonna hate no matter what ever happens... I guess now we get to see who all the Haters are...maybe thats part of the spin..and expand the ban

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

There is evidence VP Pence lied.  Should that be investigated?

Has there been a conviction yet?

 If not, of course not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many people will be killed or injured because of this deal ? What did the US get in trade for this move?

This brilliant negotiating is brought to you by the genius in the West Wing. We are winning so bigly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, saxdog said:

How many people will be killed or injured because of this deal ? What did the US get in trade for this move?

This brilliant negotiating is brought to you by the genius in the West Wing. We are winning so bigly.

1. Between 500 and 3000 is my guess.

2. We didn't even get a reach-around :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Didn't Einstein say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the very definition of insanity?  How have the last several decades of peace worked out so far???  

I am a firm believer that many of these simmering conflicts that are kept in check by the US or the UN actually lead to MORE death.  Because it keeps this simmering pot going for literally decades when a good old fashioned short and sharp bloody war can often get this shit over with once and for all.  Syria is a perfect example of that.  Had we allowed it to run its course, it likely would have been over with in a few months.  A few hundred people would have died.  Maybe a few thousand.  And then life would have gone on like normal.  AS it is we have what..... 400K dead and millions displaced.  Another million + refugees in Europe.  Whole cities reduced to rubble.  Daesh moved in to fill a vacuum....

Sometimes the only way a long standing feud finally gets resolved is to fight it out to there the other side is completely and utterly defeated and has no appetite to fight anymore.  

True, but if the Izzies wanted to annex the West Bank and Gaza they'd have done it long ago. The problem is...per usual...the "...and then whut??"

  Unless they pull a Hitler or a Young Turks on the population it will outnumber them. How can you be a democracy AND a Jewish state in that condition without apartheid? That is the defacto condition the way things are, but having to officially install it in their laws would be a wee bit embarrassing.  Frankly, I think most of the West Bank would happily become Israeli citizens if they could get fair treatment in the courts, but that again is a problem for the Izzies...they want to keep those settlements happening and breaking their own laws to do it. The obvious strategy they have been pursuing is to make their lives so miserable they go somewhere else, may take a hundred years but that doesn't make it a bad plan. 

   There may be a grain of truth in Trump's statement this is an acknowledgement of reality, but it's a reality which the Izzies themselves both deny and demand. To a degree the Izzie strategery has lost one of its fig leafs. How this will shake out? Nobody knows, but it is unlikely the rest of the members of the UN are gonna leap on this ignore their own resolutions bandwagon.  If I had to bet it would be that the West Bankers will accept this without a heck of a lot of noise, they will see it as merely symbolic (it is) and they are a beaten people and may even be aware the chaos of war will likely draw some of those particularly nasty breeds of Islamists which are in dire need of a place to hang out at the moment and are right next door.

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imagine if Isis and Al Quaeda, et al stopped fighting over barren wasteland in Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria, and focused on Israel.....

I don't think this is far from what will happen now that Trump has slipped his dick into a crack in the Wailing wall.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Mark K said:

True, but if the Izzies wanted to annex the West Bank and Gaza they'd have done it long ago. The problem is...per usual...the "...and then whut??"

well, of course the isreilies want to annex the west bank and gaza - the only problem is they need to push the palestinians somewhere else first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Fact is, the reason I say 'pox on the lot of them' is because the religious nut-case Israelis act like Nazis in their 'ethnic cleansing' of the land they took after the 1967 war. I know they're a subset but they're driving the agenda so everyone wears it IMO.

1948 was the 'ethnic cleansing' which kicked it all off. Though it had been bubbling away for a few decades as americans funded strategic land purchases in the area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Imagine if Isis and Al Quaeda, et al stopped fighting over barren wasteland in Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria, and focused on Israel.....

I don't think this is far from what will happen now that Trump has slipped his dick into a crack in the Wailing wall.....

They were saving Israel for last. Their intentions are clear from the al-Sham reference in what they call themselves. No way they dreamed of uniting the ME under their banner and being content with Israel in charge of the Dome. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Short version - people that hate each other are crammed into one area. No one is leaving. They all dream of killing each other. One side lacks the tech to actually kill all of the other side and the other side doesn't want the bad rep of killing all of that side at once.

Back in the Day they would just fight it out, the men on the losing side would be killed, the children sold as slaves, and the women sold as sex slaves. The losers would just vanish from history and the winners would live peacefully ever after or until another tribe showed up to give them a go. Now we have the UN and Geneva Convention and shit so the conflict keeps getting frozen in place.

Also each side has powerful external friends and some of those friends like to see their weapons beta tested ;)

I think I said this very thing yesterday.... In essence by preventing immediate near term bloodshed and a quick resolution to inevitable conflicts, we actually make it worse by drawing the bloodshed out over decades if not centuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

well, of course the isreilies want to annex the west bank and gaza - the only problem is they need to push the palestinians somewhere else first.

Like I said. Trump's action only removes a fig leaf, and everybody who wasn't deliberately keeping their head in the sand already knew what was underneath: An Uncle Sam sponsored soft ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. 

 Damn shame Judaism is so exclusive. Most of the area used to be Christian and Jewish. Families keep long records there and it's possible to find the exact day when they made the carefully considered decision to shed their dhimmi status by converting to Islam. To convert to Islam is simplicity itself, but one must go through a lot of hoops to become Jewish again and a lot of Izzies don't want people even trying to do that. Hell, where would they be if the entire population of Palestinians converted??

 The Izzies cling to a fiction that they are a special race of people. Not all Jews do, but it's a biggie for the Izzies. One of the interesting things is after the Enlightenment there were attempts to find common ground in the widely diverse and long separated Jewish populations of Europe. It went almost nowhere, the Jews of the western parts and the Jews of the eastern parts found they had nothing in common, not really, anyway, and they effectively avoided each other. It took Hitler to unite them in any fashion at all. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Why not?

Seriously, BD, you can't tell this is nothing but flamebait? It's kmac - that's all he does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

Seriously, BD, you can't tell this is nothing but flamebait? It's kmac - that's all he does.

Nonsense.  There is no reason to investigate Pence.  He is a politician and we know they ALL lie.  An investigation won't add anything to the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

Nonsense.  There is no reason to investigate Pence.  He is a politician and we know they ALL lie.  An investigation won't add anything to the mix.

He was being questioned about conversations between the Trump campaign and the Russians.  He repeatedly lied about the contacts.

That's not the same thing as a campaign promise.

Just the same - can we assume you feel the same way about Hillary and her lies?  "An investigation would add nothing to the mix"?

BENGHAZI!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think I said this very thing yesterday.... In essence by preventing immediate near term bloodshed and a quick resolution to inevitable conflicts, we actually make it worse by drawing the bloodshed out over decades if not centuries.

I don't think our 21st century values would stand a real Old Testament war. I do sometimes wonder how the Civil War would have worked out if Europe kept making us quit fighting. Probably still be going on :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

He was being questioned about conversations between the Trump campaign and the Russians.  He repeatedly lied about the contacts.

That's not the same thing as a campaign promise.

Just the same - can we assume you feel the same way about Hillary and her lies?  "An investigation would add nothing to the mix"?

BENGHAZI!!!

Not the same.  Hilary's lies cost lives.  They portrayed weakness on the part of America.  

You guys need to get over the campaign and election.  TRUMP WON!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, kmacdonald said:

Not the same.  Hilary's lies cost lives.  They portrayed weakness on the part of America.  

You guys need to get over the campaign and election.  TRUMP WON!!!!!!!

We know your team won.  Rah-fucking-rah!  Shake the red pompoms and slap yourself on the back.

If you are saying Hillary's lies caused the loss of those 4 Americans lives, perhaps you could explain the mechanism behind such logic.  If I am not mistaken, her lies came AFTER the attack and their deaths.

I notice you completely skipped over the bit about Pence lying.  His lies are connected to subversive interference with the 2016 election.

You appear to be okay with that, as long as your team won.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And in breaking news. Bryan Adams held a sold concert in Jerusalem last night, and no one was killed or injured, everyone left show safely after having a fantastic night......

So a Canadian singer, brings some happiness and music to the forever troubled Middle East.....  

well done.......

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

We know your team won.  Rah-fucking-rah!  Shake the red pompoms and slap yourself on the back.

If you are saying Hillary's lies caused the loss of those 4 Americans lives, perhaps you could explain the mechanism behind such logic.  If I am not mistaken, her lies came AFTER the attack and their deaths.

I notice you completely skipped over the bit about Pence lying.  His lies are connected to subversive interference with the 2016 election.

You appear to be okay with that, as long as your team won.

Hilary and Obama blamed the attack on a video and essentially condoned the attack on those false grounds.  They CHOSE to take NO action to stop the attack and save those 4 American lives.

Pence may not have lied.  He could have misspoke or just forgot.  Calling him a liar seems disingenuous to say the least.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites