Sean

Jerusalem

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34 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 Why do so many of you want to apologize for the political tactics of an organization that cares nothing for its "subjects" - treating them as expendable fodder in the furtherance of their consolidation of influence? 

I think you're confusing Gutterblack for a Trump cheerleader. ;) 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:
2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

They couldn't figure out another way to defend that border? Seems unlikely.

Got any suggestions?

Water cannons were mentioned. I'm not a crowd control expert but they had a crowd control problem, not an armed invasion.

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29 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

I think you're confusing Gutterblack for a Trump cheerleader. ;) 

Not at all - I'm suggesting that he's an apologist for Hamas.  A bit different. 

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2 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Water cannons were mentioned. I'm not a crowd control expert but they had a crowd control problem, not an armed invasion.

Yup - I agree completely with everyone who's decrying Israel's response as heavy handed.  That said - given the history of the region, Hamas's past and current behavior, the Iranian saber rattling?   Responding with decisive force is understandable, and the Hamas tactics and willingness to send people to harm's way to satisfy their political desire to paint Israel as unreasonable makes THEM culpable for eliciting the response that they expected from the IDF.    

You jump in the tiger den and get mauled, is it the tiger's fault? 

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Why do so many of you want to apologize for the political tactics of an organization that cares nothing for its "subjects" - treating them as expendable fodder in the furtherance of their consolidation of influence? 

that's no way to talk about trumpsters .

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33 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

I think you're confusing Gutterblack for a Trump cheerleader. ;) 

damn , beaten to it .

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Not at all - I'm suggesting that he's an apologist for Hamas.  A bit different. 

 

joke.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

 

joke.jpg

D'oh - you're right - I missed that completely, a bit distracted working thru some problems w/some geospatial tie point algorithms this morning. 

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6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Water cannons were mentioned. I'm not a crowd control expert but they had a crowd control problem, not an armed invasion.

Isn't water pretty scarce?  We are talking 10's of thousands of protestors over a wide area.  water cannons work in an urban enviroment with high presure water hook up available. Not sure I've ever seen it applied in open country.  Not to mention the range has to be very short to be effective.  probably a lot closer than the IDF would consider a safe distance 

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16 hours ago, Keith said:

I see Hamas has you eating right out of their play book, too bad....:mellow:

Bingo !

What has always bothered me is the surrounding Islamic states have always been willing to use them as pawns and cannon fodder, but have done little in providing aid and help to Palestine.

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Israel deliberately attacked a USN ship in international waters in '67, killing dozens and wounding well over a hundred. I'm sure that killing women and children doesn't affect their conscience in the least...they don't have one. Beats me why we continue to support a country ruled by psychopaths.

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

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Scary shit.

 

Who the fuck did you cunts vote in??

 

President Trump has surrounded himself with outspoken believers who share an end-times theology.

Vice-President Mike Pence is a stoic evangelical. He makes no secret that he devoutly believes that war in the Middle East is God’s will. That God wants Israel returned to the Jews. That Armageddon is part of God’s plan.

Pence openly maintains ties with Christian Zionist organisations that see this as a desirable fulfilment of biblical prophecy. His own speeches regularly repeat such imagery, with statements such as “a prophecy literally came to pass” with the establishment of Israel in 1948.

“When we open the American embassy in Jerusalem, we will in a very real sense end this historic friction, we’ll embrace reality,” Pence said in an interview with the Christian Broadcast Network.

 

Naturally many among Netanyahu’s powerbase see the prophetic context of it all very differently to Trump’s evangelicals. But they’re happy to go along for the ride, so long as it suits their own agenda.

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-eastern-prophecy-is-trump-a-reincarnated-king-cyrus-destined-to-herald-the-end-of-days/news-story/8fce69eacebd929b482ee00c895f37dc

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1 hour ago, dorydude said:

Scary shit.

 

Who the fuck did you cunts vote in??

 

President Trump has surrounded himself with outspoken believers who share an end-times theology.

Vice-President Mike Pence is a stoic evangelical. He makes no secret that he devoutly believes that war in the Middle East is God’s will. That God wants Israel returned to the Jews. That Armageddon is part of God’s plan.

Pence openly maintains ties with Christian Zionist organisations that see this as a desirable fulfilment of biblical prophecy. His own speeches regularly repeat such imagery, with statements such as “a prophecy literally came to pass” with the establishment of Israel in 1948.

“When we open the American embassy in Jerusalem, we will in a very real sense end this historic friction, we’ll embrace reality,” Pence said in an interview with the Christian Broadcast Network.

 

Naturally many among Netanyahu’s powerbase see the prophetic context of it all very differently to Trump’s evangelicals. But they’re happy to go along for the ride, so long as it suits their own agenda.

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-eastern-prophecy-is-trump-a-reincarnated-king-cyrus-destined-to-herald-the-end-of-days/news-story/8fce69eacebd929b482ee00c895f37dc

Correct. The bat-shit crazy Christians believe that their salvation comes when all the Muslims are killed, and the Jews converted to Christianity. Insane MFs. Yep, Pence is one of them, quite a few Congress-critters too. The USAF is positively infested with them. 

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8 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Correct. The bat-shit crazy Christians believe that their salvation comes when all the Muslims are killed, and the Jews converted to Christianity. Insane MFs. Yep, Pence is one of them, quite a few Congress-critters too. The USAF is positively infested with them. 

Pompeo is another, he believes the world is 6,000 years old and will look you straight in the eye when he tells you.

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45 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Pompeo is another, he believes the world is 6,000 years old and will look you straight in the eye when he tells you.

I'm quite tolerant of people's religion, but I'm intolerant of willful stupidity...especially in people running the country.

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4 minutes ago, RKoch said:

I'm quite tolerant of people's religion, but I'm intolerant of willful stupidity...especially in people running the country.

Can't argue with that.

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4 hours ago, dorydude said:

Scary shit.

 

Who the fuck did you cunts vote in??

 

President Trump has surrounded himself with outspoken believers who share an end-times theology.

Vice-President Mike Pence is a stoic evangelical. He makes no secret that he devoutly believes that war in the Middle East is God’s will. That God wants Israel returned to the Jews. That Armageddon is part of God’s plan.

Pence openly maintains ties with Christian Zionist organisations that see this as a desirable fulfilment of biblical prophecy. His own speeches regularly repeat such imagery, with statements such as “a prophecy literally came to pass” with the establishment of Israel in 1948.

“When we open the American embassy in Jerusalem, we will in a very real sense end this historic friction, we’ll embrace reality,” Pence said in an interview with the Christian Broadcast Network.

 

Naturally many among Netanyahu’s powerbase see the prophetic context of it all very differently to Trump’s evangelicals. But they’re happy to go along for the ride, so long as it suits their own agenda.

 

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-eastern-prophecy-is-trump-a-reincarnated-king-cyrus-destined-to-herald-the-end-of-days/news-story/8fce69eacebd929b482ee00c895f37dc

Remember when Sarah Palin was the craziest MoFo in the party leadership?

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10 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

D'oh - you're right - I missed that completely, a bit distracted working thru some problems w/some geospatial tie point algorithms this morning. 

That is the most elaborate "I missed that" that I've ever seen.

It would be worthy of Hopeless Hillary Malarkey - if he ever admitted to missing something.

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6 hours ago, Dorado said:

Bingo !

What has always bothered me is the surrounding Islamic states have always been willing to use them as pawns and cannon fodder, but have done little in providing aid and help to Palestine.

The Saudis give them a heck of a lot of money, actually. 

    

Quote

Saudi Arabia is one of the largest providers of aid to the Palestinian people.[8] In just the three-year period 1987 to 1989 Saudi Arabia provided $1.8billion in financial support to the anti-government fighters in Afghanistan around twice the amount it had given to the PLO in the previous 14 years. .[9] Since 2002, Saudi Arabia has given more than $480 million in monetary support to the Palestinian Authority, and has supported Palestinian refugees by contributing to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). Through the Arab League it has provided more than $250 million for the Palestinians, and pledged $500 million in assistance over the next three years at the Donors Conference in Dec 2007.[5] Unlike aid from other nations, Saudi Arabian aid to Palestinians was not disrupted by the election of Hamas.[8]

 

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12 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Water cannons were mentioned. I'm not a crowd control expert but they had a crowd control problem, not an armed invasion.

The distances are way, way beyond the range of water cannons, and there are no streets in the no-man's land of the buffer zone. No streets equal's no containment. They can spread out and charge. A full on prison riot in the world's largest prison is unavoidably the job for 2nd Amendment solutions, but then again, final solutions are always a bit sticky. 

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5 minutes ago, Mark K said:

The Saudis give them a heck of a lot of money, actually. 

    

 

I suspect much of that money disappeared into Swiss bank accounts, unfortunately. Although an oppressive and genocidal Israel is the bad guys there, Palestinians have also borne the burden of poor leadership. 

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Just now, RKoch said:

I suspect much of that money disappeared into Swiss bank accounts, unfortunately. Although an oppressive and genocidal Israel is the bad guys there, Palestinians have also borne the burden of poor leadership. 

  How much? 

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19 minutes ago, Mark K said:

  How much? 

IDK if it can be accurately determined. But Yasser Arafat had apparently ballpark $1 Billion in personal wealth, that he'd skimmed off foreign aid or taken as his 'cut' from Palestinian businesses. I figure subsequent leadership is likely doing similar.

From Wiki:

 

Under the Oslo Peace Accords, Israel undertook to deposit the VAT tax receipts on goods purchased by Palestinians into the Palestinian treasury. Until 2000, these monies were transferred directly to Arafat's personal accounts at Bank Leumi, in Tel Aviv. [136]

In August 2002, the Israeli Military Intelligence Chief alleged that Arafat's personal wealth was in the range of US$1.3 billion.[137] In 2003 the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the PNA and stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PNA Chief Economic Financial adviser. However, the IMF did not claim that there were any improprieties, and it specifically stated that most of the funds had been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad.[138][139]

However, in 2003, a team of American accountants—hired by Arafat's own finance ministry—began examining Arafat's finances. In its conclusions, the team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."[140] An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy.[141]

Although Arafat lived a modest lifestyle, Dennis Ross, former Middle East negotiator for Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, stated that Arafat's "walking-around money" financed a vast patronage system known as neopatrimonialism. According to Salam Fayyad—a former World Bank official whom Arafat appointed Finance Minister of the PNA in 2002—Arafat's commodity monopolies could accurately be seen as gouging his own people, "especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral." Fayyad claims that Arafat used $20 million from public funds to pay the leadership of the PNA security forces (the Preventive Security Service) alone.[140]

Fuad Shubaki, former financial aide to Arafat, told the Israeli security service Shin Bet that Arafat used several million dollars of aid money to buy weapons and support militant groups.[142] During Israel's Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel army recovered counterfeit money and documents from Arafat's Ramallah headquarters. The documents showed that, in 2001, Arafat personally approved payments to Tanzim militants.[143] The Palestinians claimed that the counterfeit money was confiscated from criminal elements.[144]

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18 hours ago, Mark K said:

The distances are way, way beyond the range of water cannons, and there are no streets in the no-man's land of the buffer zone. No streets equal's no containment. They can spread out and charge. A full on prison riot in the world's largest prison is unavoidably the job for 2nd Amendment solutions, but then again, final solutions are always a bit sticky. 

The IDF has been known to use weapons of mass destruction in urban environments. At least, what some consider WMD's. I still think they could find another way.

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23 hours ago, RKoch said:

IDK if it can be accurately determined. But Yasser Arafat had apparently ballpark $1 Billion in personal wealth, that he'd skimmed off foreign aid or taken as his 'cut' from Palestinian businesses. I figure subsequent leadership is likely doing similar.

From Wiki:

 

Under the Oslo Peace Accords, Israel undertook to deposit the VAT tax receipts on goods purchased by Palestinians into the Palestinian treasury. Until 2000, these monies were transferred directly to Arafat's personal accounts at Bank Leumi, in Tel Aviv. [136]

In August 2002, the Israeli Military Intelligence Chief alleged that Arafat's personal wealth was in the range of US$1.3 billion.[137] In 2003 the International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the PNA and stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PNA Chief Economic Financial adviser. However, the IMF did not claim that there were any improprieties, and it specifically stated that most of the funds had been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad.[138][139]

However, in 2003, a team of American accountants—hired by Arafat's own finance ministry—began examining Arafat's finances. In its conclusions, the team claimed that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion, with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the US and the Cayman Islands. The head of the investigation stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public."[140] An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy.[141]

Although Arafat lived a modest lifestyle, Dennis Ross, former Middle East negotiator for Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, stated that Arafat's "walking-around money" financed a vast patronage system known as neopatrimonialism. According to Salam Fayyad—a former World Bank official whom Arafat appointed Finance Minister of the PNA in 2002—Arafat's commodity monopolies could accurately be seen as gouging his own people, "especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral." Fayyad claims that Arafat used $20 million from public funds to pay the leadership of the PNA security forces (the Preventive Security Service) alone.[140]

Fuad Shubaki, former financial aide to Arafat, told the Israeli security service Shin Bet that Arafat used several million dollars of aid money to buy weapons and support militant groups.[142] During Israel's Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel army recovered counterfeit money and documents from Arafat's Ramallah headquarters. The documents showed that, in 2001, Arafat personally approved payments to Tanzim militants.[143] The Palestinians claimed that the counterfeit money was confiscated from criminal elements.[144]

 There are lots of articles detailing what happened to it both before and after he died. And that was more than a decade ago. 

My comment was in the context of someone saying the Arabs never give anything to the Palestinians. I thought it worth correcting, lest someone who knows dick about the topic think he was a fucking moron. The Saudis and the Gulfies give tons of money to all the poorer Arabs, even the north African "arabs" of Egypt. Where it not for Saudi money Jordan would be a very sad place, especially considering they are housing millions of displaced Syrians.  

 

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10 hours ago, RKoch said:

image.jpeg

No, because Europeans took it over and gave it to the jews as a reservation in hopes that they wouldn't continue living in Europe.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

No, because Europeans took it over and gave it to the jews as a reservation in hopes that they wouldn't continue living in Europe.

Then why don't we give them Manhattan, and Miami too?

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Its just Hamas, doing what they do best, terrorizing, everyone.

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:01 PM, SloopJonB said:

That is the most elaborate "I missed that" that I've ever seen.

It would be worthy of Hopeless Hillary Malarkey - if he ever admitted to missing something.

It's what I do - and it often requires more active dedicated brain cells than I can easily muster.  

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44 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Does Saudi Arabia welcome them as guests into their country? 

Sure, during the Haaj.

Then they send them home.

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8 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Like he’ll care. Of course, if Obama had done it, President Trump would’ve Tweeted up a storm about it. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/un-jerusalem-trump-vote-result-decision-general-assembly-null-void-a8123106.html

Fuck the UN.  They do not have the authority to tell a sovergn nation where they can have their capital or if a country does or does not recognize that capital.   Second they have no authority to tell the US or any country where they can put their embassy .  

Time to cut all funding and raise the rent. 

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4 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Fuck the UN.  They do not have the authority to tell a sovergn nation where they can have their capital or if a country does or does not recognize that capital.   Second they have no authority to tell the US or any country where they can put their embassy .  

Time to cut all funding and raise the rent. 

Fuck the bully and his henchmen/woman. 

Ahead of the vote, the US’s ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, had warned that the US would would be “taking names” of any countries who supported a resolution criticising Washington’s actions.”

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7 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Fuck the bully and his henchmen/woman. 

Ahead of the vote, the US’s ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, had warned that the US would would be “taking names” of any countries who supported a resolution criticising Washington’s actions.”

Good.  Tired of that anti American body’s crap. There is nothing in their charter to authorize placements of capitals. If they had any balls the motion would have never been allowed. 

 

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6 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

Good.  Tired of that anti American body’s crap. There is nothing in their charter to authorize placements of capitals. If they had any balls the motion would have never been allowed. 

Threatening to withhold aid from poor countries if they disapprove is a dick move expected from a dictator. 

You applaud it. 

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9 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Threatening to withhold aid from poor countries if they disapprove is a dick move expected from a dictator. 

You applaud it. 

Telling a country it cannot recognize another’s capital is the Dick move. 

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Talking of Dick Australia is still sucking the Americans.

Recent UN vote shows the Ozzie’s have not moved on from being a US sock puppet as they were in the Legue of Nations vote excluding the Japanese.

 

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13 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Does Saudi Arabia welcome them as guests into their country? 

I assume you are aware that as the keepers of the shrine in Mecca they must welcome ALL Muslims as guests, even the apostate Shia, so your question is a bit hard to figure.

 What are you driving at? 

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4 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

Fuck the UN.  They do not have the authority to tell a sovergn nation where they can have their capital or if a country does or does not recognize that capital.   Second they have no authority to tell the US or any country where they can put their embassy .  

Time to cut all funding and raise the rent. 

We were the primary drivers of the creation of the UN. That was, however, before we realized we are the world's sole deciderer of right from wrong. I also see no reason for it to continue. It only encourages unpatriotic thoughts in other "nations".  

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6 hours ago, TMSAIL said:

Fuck the UN.  They do not have the authority to tell a sovergn nation where they can have their capital or if a country does or does not recognize that capital.   Second they have no authority to tell the US or any country where they can put their embassy .  

 Time to cut all funding and raise the rent. 

Wherein TMSAIL drops the pretence of rationality and goes full-blown Trumptard. :rolleyes: 

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15 hours ago, TMSAIL said:
15 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

Threatening to withhold aid from poor countries if they disapprove is a dick move expected from a dictator. 

You applaud it. 

Telling a country it cannot recognize another’s capital is the Dick move. 

I can see why you find that to be a bigger dick move than withholding humanitarian aid.

Suffering people are so inconvenient. 

Unless, we can capitalize on their with a dick move to pressure other governments to fall in line.

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5 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

I can see why you find that to be a bigger dick move than withholding humanitarian aid.

Suffering people are so inconvenient. 

Unless, we can capitalize on their with a dick move to pressure other governments to fall in line.

Get back to us when the US actually withholds aid based on this vote.

The dick move I’m referencing has already happened. 

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1 minute ago, TMSAIL said:

Get back to us when the US actually withholds aid based on this vote.

The dick move I’m referencing has already happened. 

So, threatening is cool with you.

I'd like to think our UN Ambassador is more of an adult than we know the President to be.

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Just now, Bus Driver said:

So, threatening is cool with you.

I'd like to think our UN Ambassador is more of an adult than we know the President to be.

You didn’t say threatening you said withholding aid.  That suffering people are inconvenient 

As to threatening it’s called diplomacy. The UN is all about sanctions if a country doesn’t agree to what the body wants they get sanctioned

quid pro quo was probably invented by diplomats.  

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7 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

You didn’t say threatening you said withholding aid.  That suffering people are inconvenient 

As to threatening it’s called diplomacy. The UN is all about sanctions if a country doesn’t agree to what the body wants they get sanctioned

quid pro quo was probably invented by diplomats.  

You dismissed it as nothing to worry about, as it was just a threat. "Get back to us when the US actually withholds aid based on this vote."

There is a world of difference between the UN and sanctions as compared to one country having a hissy fit and threatening poor countries with the loss of aid if they don't fall in line.

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2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You dismissed it as nothing to worry about, as it was just a threat. "Get back to us when the US actually withholds aid based on this vote."

There is a world of difference between the UN and sanctions as compared to one country having a hissy fit and threatening poor countries with the loss of aid if they don't fall in line.

I dismissed the threat.  Like I said get back to me when we withhold aid. 

How about the actual issue.   Do you think the UN has a right to tell ANY country where they can have their capital?  

Second do you think the UN has the right to void a internal decision by any country on recognizing that capital? 

Bonus question 

If the Palestinians declared East Jerusalem their capital. Would their be a vote in the UN declaring it Null and Void?  

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3 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

I dismissed the threat.  Like I said get back to me when we withhold aid. 

How about the actual issue.   Do you think the UN has a right to tell ANY country where they can have their capital?  

Second do you think the UN has the right to void a internal decision by any country on recognizing that capital? 

Bonus question 

If the Palestinians declared East Jerusalem their capital. Would their be a vote in the UN declaring it Null and Void?  

Get back to us when the UN prevents Israel from having Jerusalem as the capital.

Until then, it's just a threat.

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2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Get back to us when the UN prevents Israel from having Jerusalem as the capital.

Until then, it's just a threat.

I see you ignored my questions. 

 

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28 minutes ago, TMSAIL said:

I see you ignored my questions. 

Just using your logic. 

 

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On 5/18/2018 at 9:59 PM, Mark K said:

I assume you are aware that as the keepers of the shrine in Mecca they must welcome ALL Muslims as guests, even the apostate Shia, so your question is a bit hard to figure.

 What are you driving at? 

If the House of Saud was truly concerned about the plight of the oppressed Palestinian people - don't you think that they'd invite them to take up residence in the Kingdom? 

My point, Mark, is that Arab community doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything with the Palestinians aside from using them as proxies and pawns to poke at Israel.  

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11 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

If the House of Saud was truly concerned about the plight of the oppressed Palestinian people - don't you think that they'd invite them to take up residence in the Kingdom? 

My point, Mark, is that Arab community doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything with the Palestinians aside from using them as proxies and pawns to poke at Israel.  

 The notion that anyone who isn't going to take on several million refugees is thereby only interested in poking Israel is patently ridiculous.  

  

 

 

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Untitled.jpg.6953288e8c3203c701325ff68d7178be.jpg

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/115326-random-picthread/&do=findComment&comment=6222359

 

Samakh, Tiberias  

 staticmap?center=32.704864,35.587569&zoom=13&size=800x400location.pngsub_location.pngsub_location.pngsub_location.pngsub_location.png

Samakh
Samakh1b.jpg
 
Samakh from the air, 1931
400px-Mandatory_Palestine_location_map.s
 
Samakh
Samakh
Arabic سمخ
Name meaning "gum"[1]
Also spelled Samach
Subdistrict Tiberias
Coordinates 32°42′18″N 35°35′15″E
Palestine grid 205/234
Population 3,460[2][3] (1945)
Area 9,265[3] dunams
Date of depopulation 28 April 1948[4]
Cause(s) of depopulation Military assault by Yishuvforces
Current localities Ma'agan[5][6] Tel Katzir[6]Masada,[6] Sha'ar HaGolan[6]
The mosque at Samakh, between WWI and WW2
The mosque at Samakh, between WWI and WW2

Samakh (Arabic: سمخ‎) was a Palestinian Arab village at the south end of Lake Tiberias in Palestine (now in Israel). It had a population of 3,320 Arab Muslims and Arab Christians in 1945.[7] The town's inhabitants fled after Haganah forces captured the town on 3 March 1948, and the remainder left in the wake of an assault by the Golani Brigade against the Syrian army on 18 April 1948. Most of the former residents became internally displaced refugees in the Arab city of Nazareth.[8]

It was the site of battle in 1918 during World War I.

Between 1905 and 1948, the town was an important stop on the Jezreel Valley railway and Hejaz railway, being the last effective stop in the British Mandate of Palestine (the station at al-Hamma was geographically isolated). Today, the Tzemah Industrial Zone and a part of kibbutz Ma'agan are on the site of the former village.

Location

The village was on flat land in the Jordan Valley, on the southernmost shore of Lake Tiberias, only a short distance east of the point where River Jordan exits from the lake. Samakh was the largest village in the Tiberias district, both in terms of area and population, and was a major transportation link. The village was served by a station on the railroad line that ran on the Jezreel Valley railway, an extension of the Hejaz Railway. It lay on a highway that ran along the lake shore and led to the city of Tiberias in the northwest. Sailing routes on Lake Tiberias also linked Samakh with Tiberias's harbour.[9]

History

Ottoman era

In the late Ottoman era, Pierre Jacotin named the village Semak on his map from 1799.[10] Most houses were built of adobe, but some were built of the black (basalt) stone that was abundant in the Golan area near Samakh.[9] Johann Ludwig Burckhardt, a Swiss traveler to Palestine who saw the village (which he called Szammagh), in 1812, described it as a collection of thirty or forty mud houses alongside more costly houses built of black stone. He said about 100 faddans (1 fadda = 100–250 dunams) were cultivated in the immediate vicinity.[11][12][13]

In 1838 Edward Robinson also found the village to contain 30-40 adobe huts, and a few built of black stone.[14]

In 1875, the French explorer Victor Guérin found the village to be divided into two parts, and built of adobe bricks or volcanic stones.[15] In 1881, the Palestine Exploration Fund's Survey of Western Palestine described it as a village of 200 inhabitants who cultivated the surrounding plain.[16]

The village and its railway station were the site of a battle between British/Australian and German/Turkish forces in World War I. The battle ended in an Allied victory and opened up the way to Damascus for General Allenby's troops. It was described by Field Marshal Wavell as the most fierce and cruel battle in the Palestinian theater.[17]

British Mandate era

 

See also: Battle of Samakh

Samakh region in historical perspective.
Samakh region in historical perspective.

In the 1922 census of Palestine, conducted by the British Mandate authorities, Samakh, together with Al-Hamma, had a total population of 976. Of these, 922 were Muslims, 28 Jews, one Bahaiand 25 Christians;[18] where the Christians were 6 Orthodox, 1 Roman Catholic, 2 Melkite, 11 Armenian and 5 Anglican.[19] In the 1931 census the population had increased to 1900; 4 Druse, 76 Christians, 40 Jews and 1780 Muslims, in a total of 480 houses.[20]

In 1923 a local council was created, which still administered Samakh by 1945. The council's expenditure grew steadily, from P£310 in 1929 to P£1,100 in 1944.[21]

By 1944/45 the population of Samakh had increased to 3,320 Muslims, 130 Christians and 10 of other faiths, a total of 3,460 persons.[2] The majority of the population belonged to the settled Bedouin tribes of the 'Arab al-Suqur and 'Arab al-Bashatiwa. The village had two schools, one for boys and another for girls. Their chief crops were bananas and grain; in 1944/45 8,523 dunums were planted in cereals,[9][22] while 239 dunams were built-up land.[23]

1948, aftermath

The village was captured by the Haganah in the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine, along with the British border guard base nearby, and became a military outpost that changed hands twice in the Battles of the Kinarot Valley, between the Haganah and the Syrian Army. On May 21, after the Syrian retreat, the Haganah set up a position in Samakh.[24]

Walid Khalidi wrote in 1992, that the structure remaining of Samakh was the ruins of the railway station and a water reservoir. The members of Degania Alef built a public park, a petrol station, and factories known as the Tzemah Factories on the village site.[6] The Kinneret College is also located there.

The kibbutzim Masada and Sha'ar HaGolan were established southeast of the village site in 1937, and have since expanded onto lands within Samakh's former jurisdiction. Both Ma'agan and the nearby kibbutz Tel Katzir were built on Samakh's land in 1949. The kibbutzim Deganya Alef and Deganya Bet are also close to Samakh's location, but not on land that belonged to the village.[6]

The Tzemah road junction, between Highway 90, 92 and 98, is next to the site of Samakh; near it are a small water park and a Burger Ranch restaurant.

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Samakh,_Tiberias

 

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11 hours ago, Mark K said:

 The notion that anyone who isn't going to take on several million refugees is thereby only interested in poking Israel is patently ridiculous.  

 

Several Million?  How 'bout Any?  After all - they're all Muslim/Arab brothers, right?  Syria didn't want any of 'em, neither did Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq or Iran (we're getting into Persia, now, but, the point remains).  I think that your assertion that the KoSA, Syria, Egypt or any of the other neighbors care about the Palestinian plight beyond their ability to use the Palestinian plight to advance their goal of eradicating Israel/reducing their perception on the world stage is patently ridiculous. 

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13 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Several Million?  How 'bout Any?  After all - they're all Muslim/Arab brothers, right?  Syria didn't want any of 'em, neither did Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq or Iran (we're getting into Persia, now, but, the point remains).  I think that your assertion that the KoSA, Syria, Egypt or any of the other neighbors care about the Palestinian plight beyond their ability to use the Palestinian plight to advance their goal of eradicating Israel/reducing their perception on the world stage is patently ridiculous. 

Hang around any cafe in Cairo and you will see Palestinian ex-pats, same goes for every place in the region. You moved the goal posts from taking all of them to claiming they take none of them...total nonsense. 

  Now, as with most specious BS, there is a grain of truth in this shit. It is true the places around the region use them somewhat as pawns to needle Israel. However of you think the Levantines are anything like the Sauds you have another think coming, I hope. To imply they would all move to SA if they could is ignorance. Look at the rainfall map of the region sometime. It's not desert by the coast.  

  An example to highlight the speciousness of this is to recall that boat-load of refugees from Hitler's death camps we refused to let land in the US after the holocaust,  should we claim that as evidence the US doesn't care about the Jews?  Ever wonder why we didn't give Germany to the survivors of the Holocaust? Ever wonder why we didn't give the, say, South Carolina? Had the same shit gone down there as went down in the Levant, what do you imagine the situation would be like there today? 

 If you cut an Arab, does he not bleed? 

    

  

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8 hours ago, Mark K said:

Hang around any cafe in Cairo and you will see Palestinian ex-pats, same goes for every place in the region. You moved the goal posts from taking all of them to claiming they take none of them...total nonsense. 

   Now, as with most specious BS, there is a grain of truth in this shit. It is true the places around the region use them somewhat as pawns to needle Israel. However of you think the Levantines are anything like the Sauds you have another think coming, I hope. To imply they would all move to SA if they could is ignorance. Look at the rainfall map of the region sometime. It's not desert by the coast.  

  An example to highlight the speciousness of this is to recall that boat-load of refugees from Hitler's death camps we refused to let land in the US after the holocaust,  should we claim that as evidence the US doesn't care about the Jews?  Ever wonder why we didn't give Germany to the survivors of the Holocaust? Ever wonder why we didn't give the, say, South Carolina? Had the same shit gone down there as went down in the Levant, what do you imagine the situation would be like there today? 

 If you cut an Arab, does he not bleed? 

    

To the bolded part - nope, I don't think that, and you're making my point for me:  The people in that part of the world don't have national identities, in general, they are more tribally focused, and anyone outside "The Tribe" can be a muslim brother, but that doesn't mean that one tribe is going to go out of its way to do anything to help another tribe unless there's some perceived benefit.   I think I led you, unintentionally, on a tangent - but the main point is that Hamas is interested in increasing its clout and influence, and IMHO the Palestinian people are merely pawns to be employed to that end, while the fraternal Muslim nations bordering Israel do little to nothing to improve the Palestinian plight outside those country's ability to provide enough assistance to "look compassionate" while poking Israel.  

It's not specious BS - and there's a bit more than a grain of truth.   Are the border crossings to Jordan and Egypt as open as Hamas wants Israel's crossings to be? 

My objective in sharing this observation is to counter the idea that Israelis are the only group that are contributing to the Palestinian plight. 

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13 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

To the bolded part - nope, I don't think that, and you're making my point for me:  The people in that part of the world don't have national identities, in general, they are more tribally focused, and anyone outside "The Tribe" can be a muslim brother, but that doesn't mean that one tribe is going to go out of its way to do anything to help another tribe unless there's some perceived benefit.   I think I led you, unintentionally, on a tangent - but the main point is that Hamas is interested in increasing its clout and influence, and IMHO the Palestinian people are merely pawns to be employed to that end, while the fraternal Muslim nations bordering Israel do little to nothing to improve the Palestinian plight outside those country's ability to provide enough assistance to "look compassionate" while poking Israel.  

It's not specious BS - and there's a bit more than a grain of truth.   Are the border crossings to Jordan and Egypt as open as Hamas wants Israel's crossings to be? 

My objective in sharing this observation is to counter the idea that Israelis are the only group that are contributing to the Palestinian plight. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Jordan

 How did Jordan support all those Palestinians? With Saudi (and others) cash. 

 Egypt teeters on the brink of disaster constantly, they can not afford the several million currently living in the world's largest prison, AKA "Gaza". 

 The plight of those people is something to behold, that is, if one is still capable of viewing them as human beings. Not many Americans are.  Blame it on Hamas if you wish, I blame Israel for the existence of Hamas myself. They want to steal that land and the West Bank. They have abandoned the two state solution and openly say so now. So what should the fate be of the people living there now?

Everybody who says Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel should google "Tel Aviv". 

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5 hours ago, Mark K said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Jordan

 How did Jordan support all those Palestinians? With Saudi (and others) cash. 

 Egypt teeters on the brink of disaster constantly, they can not afford the several million currently living in the world's largest prison, AKA "Gaza".

They could afford them from 1948 to 1967.

Israel *withdrew* from Gaza, remember? Gave it back with intact infrastructure. Didn't blockade the place for about 2 years following withdrawal. Funny how many people like to skip over that detail.

If Hamas had spent the time building a civil society instead of destroying one in the process of attempting to destroy another I daresay Gaza would look a lot different today. It's a tragedy that it doesn't, but the responsibility is Hamas' not Israel IMO.

FKT

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NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.

The greenhouses are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza after 38 years of Israeli occupation. The Palestinian Authority hopes the high-tech greenhouses left by the Israelis will provide jobs and export income for Gaza’s shattered economy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/

 

The Israelis left over 3,000 hydroponic greenhouses for the Palestinians when they pulled out of Gaza which the Palestinians promptly looted.

The jews were always trying to make peace with the muslims, it's futile Allah hates the yahud.

 

Quote

One-fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah (Khumus)

Narrated Ibn `Umar:

`Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the Jews and Christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the Jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and the Muslims. But the Jews requested Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) to leave them there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits (the land would yield). Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "We shall keep you on these terms as long as we wish." Thus they stayed till the time of `Umar's Caliphate when he expelled them to Taima and Ariha.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/57/60

 

Why does Allah need 20% of all war booty? 

Quote

Sahih International

And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah, over all things, is competent.

https://quran.com/8/41

 

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2 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

The jews were always trying to make peace with the muslims, it's futile Allah hates the yahud.

No, they weren't.

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11 hours ago, Mark K said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Jordan

 How did Jordan support all those Palestinians? With Saudi (and others) cash. 

 Egypt teeters on the brink of disaster constantly, they can not afford the several million currently living in the world's largest prison, AKA "Gaza". 

 The plight of those people is something to behold, that is, if one is still capable of viewing them as human beings. Not many Americans are.  Blame it on Hamas if you wish, I blame Israel for the existence of Hamas myself. They want to steal that land and the West Bank. They have abandoned the two state solution and openly say so now. So what should the fate be of the people living there now?

Everybody who says Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel should google "Tel Aviv". 

What instigated the 6 days war? 

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On 5/16/2018 at 7:16 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Yup - I agree completely with everyone who's decrying Israel's response as heavy handed.  That said - given the history of the region, Hamas's past and current behavior, the Iranian saber rattling?   Responding with decisive force is understandable, and the Hamas tactics and willingness to send people to harm's way to satisfy their political desire to paint Israel as unreasonable makes THEM culpable for eliciting the response that they expected from the IDF.    

You jump in the tiger den and get mauled, is it the tiger's fault? 

https://www.lawfareblog.com/supreme-court-israel-dismisses-petition-against-gaza-rules-engagement

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 According to the petitioners, the current rules of engagement allow the use of live ammunition against “main inciters,” who call on protesters to move towards the fence, even if the inciters do not create an immediate danger. 

anyone who thinks this will improve the situation is certifiable .

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2 hours ago, Mid said:

anyone who thinks this will improve the situation is certifiable .

Hear's a thought - maybe if Hamas ( and its proxy backers) recognized Israel's right to exist, and quit trying to blow them up at every opportunity, the IDF may feel secure enough to reduce their threat posture?   

 

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9 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Did you read the article, or just see a headline that you think supports your position?  If you did read it, please share how you think it pertains to my position. 

I think it’s more the reality on the ground, and some of the forces that are driving it. 

(I read the Lawfare Wittes blog every day.)

I don’t know how it pertains to your position.  

Do you think the sides over there care?  I doubt if they give a fuck about mine.  It’s the nature of war.  War is a force that gives our lives meaning- maybe....

Dunno.

Does it prick us on, or prick us off?  

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Well, well, looks like Hamas has hit their own southern Gaza power supply,  guess it will take a while for that to get fixed.

Doesn't look like the shooting is stopping anytime soon.

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17 hours ago, Amati said:

I think it’s more the reality on the ground, and some of the forces that are driving it. 

(I read the Lawfare Wittes blog every day.)

I don’t know how it pertains to your position.  

Do you think the sides over there care?  I doubt if they give a fuck about mine.  It’s the nature of war.  War is a force that gives our lives meaning- maybe....

Dunno.

Does it prick us on, or prick us off?  

Brudda - I'm trying to understand what you intend to share, but, I'm really not getting it. 

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46 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Brudda - I'm trying to understand what you intend to share, but, I'm really not getting it. 

It’s one of those Sun Tzu questions waiting in a begging bowl to be meditated on once you soak in the initial Truth that the “The Ultimate Warrior Never Fights”:

What is War?

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15 minutes ago, Amati said:

It’s one of those Sun Tzu questions waiting in a begging bowl to be meditated on once you soak in the initial Truth that the “The Ultimate Warrior Never Fights”:

What is War?

I won't be home with my scotch bottle for 5 more hours - let me think about this then, cool? 

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I won't be home with my scotch bottle for 5 more hours - let me think about this then, cool? 

You need a flask. You never know when you might need to sit down and think deeply.

a4845d-silver-hip-flask-antique_1649_det

 

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You need a flask. You never know when you might need to sit down and think deeply.

a4845d-silver-hip-flask-antique_1649_det

 

I've got a few of those - but, generally try to keep 'em away from the office and the car.  They do come in handy on long slow paddling trips, or sitting out by the bonfire pit. 

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Saudi King Tells U.S. That Peace Plan Must Include East Jerusalem as Palestinian Capital

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/saudis-say-u-s-peace-plan-must-include-e-j-l-as-palestinian-capital-1.6319323

WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia and other key Arab countries have told the Trump administration they won’t be able to support its plan for Israeli-Palestinian peace if it doesn’t include a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

The Saudi position was first reported by Reuters on Sunday, and was later confirmed to Haaretz by two diplomats involved in conversations on the peace plan.

The Saudi position was expressed by King Salman during a number of recent communications with senior U.S. officials, as well as in conversations with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and other Arab leaders in the region. It contradicts many media reports over the past year about a Saudi willingness to adopt Trump’s peace plan even if it is unacceptable to the Palestinians.

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6 hours ago, Sean said:

 

Saudi King Tells U.S. That Peace Plan Must Include East Jerusalem as Palestinian Capital

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/saudis-say-u-s-peace-plan-must-include-e-j-l-as-palestinian-capital-1.6319323

WASHINGTON — Saudi Arabia and other key Arab countries have told the Trump administration they won’t be able to support its plan for Israeli-Palestinian peace if it doesn’t include a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

The Saudi position was first reported by Reuters on Sunday, and was later confirmed to Haaretz by two diplomats involved in conversations on the peace plan.

The Saudi position was expressed by King Salman during a number of recent communications with senior U.S. officials, as well as in conversations with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and other Arab leaders in the region. It contradicts many media reports over the past year about a Saudi willingness to adopt Trump’s peace plan even if it is unacceptable to the Palestinians.

well who'd have thunk?

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WASHINGTON (AFP) — Twenty-five years ago, then US president Bill Clinton looked on as Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn, sealing the Oslo accords.

And in 1979, Jimmy Carter hosted the leaders of Israel and Egypt at Camp David — another indelible moment in diplomatic history.

US President Donald Trump can only dream of such a scene unfolding on his watch.

Under the president, the United States is further away than ever from playing its traditional role as mediator in the long-simmering Middle East peace process.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-oslo-anniversary-trumps-us-has-lost-role-as-mideast-peace-mediator/

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seriously. It would be interesting if posters on this thread would put put aside their personal prejudices for a moment.

do a hypothetical. Walk it back.

If you could go back to 1946, what would you come up with to give a disenfranchised and persecuted  people a homeland?

Say you have a group called "The Elan" they've been legal cits of any number of countries for 2000 years, yet hold their religious and cultural identity above their "born nationality"

They've been persecuted as a group by everyone for 2000 years to greater or lesser extents.

They once had a kingdom of their own for about 800 years..1200 years ago.

75 years ago, one country took this persecution to extremes and commenced a program of systematic and barbaric annihilation..genocide.

Everyone else says.."OH Shit!!" that's going a bit too far!! we are So so so sorry.

what can we do for the Elan!

Any idea's??

 

Personally..I'd say What happened is probably the darkest period of human history as far as numbers go, The attempted annihilation of any religious or cultural group is a abomination. But you can't take land from any other peoples to grant the Elan a homeland without their expressed agreement and consent.no matter how historically attached the Elan may be to a particular place.

So..lets compromise on the location. if it's agreed that a homeland is needed and find a place where the locals are willing to share their space (for generous compensation) and draw up an unbreakable secular charter giving all denizens of this place equal rights.

Impossible isn;t it?

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

seriously. It would be interesting if posters on this thread would put put aside their personal prejudices for a moment.

do a hypothetical. Walk it back.

If you could go back to 1946, what would you come up with to give a disenfranchised and persecuted  people a homeland?

Say you have a group called "The Elan" they've been legal cits of any number of countries for 2000 years, yet hold their religious and cultural identity above their "born nationality"

They've been persecuted as a group by everyone for 2000 years to greater or lesser extents.

They once had a kingdom of their own for about 800 years..1200 years ago.

75 years ago, one country took this persecution to extremes and commenced a program of systematic and barbaric annihilation..genocide.

Everyone else says.."OH Shit!!" that's going a bit too far!! we are So so so sorry.

what can we do for the Elan!

Any idea's??

 

Personally..I'd say What happened is probably the darkest period of human history as far as numbers go, The attempted annihilation of any religious or cultural group is a abomination. But you can't take land from any other peoples to grant the Elan a homeland without their expressed agreement and consent.no matter how historically attached the Elan may be to a particular place.

So..lets compromise on the location. if it's agreed that a homeland is needed and find a place where the locals are willing to share their space (for generous compensation) and draw up an unbreakable secular charter giving all denizens of this place equal rights.

Impossible isn;t it?

Maybe you should do that?

I was in the West Bank where the borders were wide open and I could walk all day to get back to Jerusalem. The most contentious issue of the day to the Palestinian teenage guys to whom I spoke was if the Toyotas or the Datsuns made better better cars to tune, go-fast, and hang their flag over the hood. Those were early days, I couldn't imagine anyone tuning up a little four-banger to go fast, in the USA we had muscle cars, but the Middle Easterners were ahead of their time.

Why do you want to "walk it back" to 1946, when you could more efficiently just go back to about 1985 or so? You write that it's the "darkest period of human history" ... are you stoned? Any tensions and deaths and takeovers are barely a blip compared to the genocides in America and Australia and even as recently as the Nazis and Cambodians. You can't possibly be so ignorant as to write insanity like that, you're stirring a pot of shit for some reason, because the truth dosn't seem to agree with your politics as much as a fiction does. The most inconvenient reality for shit-stirrers like you is Palestinians and Israelis, left to their own devices, seem to get along just fine. But when you have your country taken over by a bunch of terrorists, and you fear for the potential safety of your family, normal, educated Palestians tend to turn a blind eye to some reprehensible shit. And Israelis (and Australians and Americans and French and British) turn a blind eye to equally reprehensible shit performed by their governments in the interests in keeping them "safe" from terrorists, from brown-skinned immigrants, from Irish Catholics who happened to be walking down the wrong the street on the wrong day.

This "compromise of location" that you so gloriously thought up in your post IS that reality, and for all the parts that don't work, you're ignoring a lot that does work. You're ignoring the rising secularity of that entire region, regardless a few backwards anti-progressives passing a few stupid laws. You're ignoring the improving rights of homosexuals and feminists and outright leftist dissidents. You're ignoring the hospitals that share services and heal children across borders, you're ignoring the work of engineers and businesspeople who make things happen in Egypt, The West Bank, Jordan and Lebanon and Israel. You're ignoring the rising tide of rationality there, the work and studies of the vast majority of people who are working to get the Israelis to stop murdering innocent Palestinians, and working to get Palestinians to marginalize the terrorist murders in their communities. The "compromise of location" is a shared Jerusalem with a border down the center, it's Israelis and Palestinians cut off from cities of their own histories in a attempt to make peace, and Jordan doing what they can.

I guess it's the thing that shit-stirrers do. When you seek out what's broken, when you seek out music that you hate, you'll find it. But the truth and a heartbreaking good song just written from a guy in Sheboygan, that's something that you have to look for sometimes. Like so many progressives and regressive similar to you, the truth doesn't seem to interest you, so you don't seek it, and it sure as heck won't find you if you don't look for it.

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are you being deliberately obtuse?

"darkest period of human history" . I'm talking about the Holocaust you fool.

How can you walk it back to 1986 when the Elan have already been occupying their new homeland for 40 years?

You're either so invested in the status quo that you've lost any ability you may have had to re assess a situation or you didn't read my post.

I'm asking you to do a hypothetical with a similar situation and you jump right into Israel in 1986.

Instead of the Elan (apologies to Mick Farren) imagine how you'd solve a situation with any other peoples forcibly moved and wishing to reoccupy  hundreds or thousands of years later.

The Scots in the glens in the 18th century? 

How would you do it differently to avoid the same mess that palistine/Israel is in now.

Use your imagination ..if you have one

 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

are you being deliberately obtuse?

"darkest period of human history" . I'm talking about the Holocaust you fool.

How can you walk it back to 1986 when the Elan have already been occupying their new homeland for 40 years?

You're either so invested in the status quo that you've lost any ability you may have had to re assess a situation or you didn't read my post.

I'm asking you to do a hypothetical with a similar situation and you jump right into Israel in 1986.

Instead of the Elan (apologies to Mick Farren) imagine how you'd solve a situation with any other peoples forcibly moved and wishing to reoccupy  hundreds or thousands of years later.

The Scots in the glens in the 18th century? 

How would you do it differently to avoid the same mess that palistine/Israel is in now.

Use your imagination ..if you have one

 

The "occupation" includes generations of Israeli Arabs and Jews who were there for hundreds of years, it's not like when the British invaded Australia or Americas, and now have aboriginal populations only about 3% of the total population. Israeli Arabs make up about 25% of the total population of that country, and about 20% of the Israeli Jews are related to Jews who were there before the Europeans came.

The fact that you're even using the "Elan" suggests that you've already made up your mind. Your knowledge of that culture and their challenges seems about as nuanced as a BBC documentary. Maybe you should spend some time there and get back to this thread?

Your post is as laughable as the vagaries with your language ... you think that some Brit in Australia can even understand the opportunities and challenges there, let alone discuss a geographical solution? You seem to perfectly fit the mold of those couple hundred years of British Imperialist wankers who used their cartographers to rip the souls from indigenous populations from which they needed to extract resources. I'm quite sure that Jews, Arabs, Jordanians, Palestinians and Egyptians would have no use for anything that you consider "insight" here.

Palestinians and Israelis are highly educated, they work their asses off and they don't have multimillion dollar homes in Melbourne as salve to their mistakes. I'm far more confident in their abilities to figure out their futures better than you. They did it once, they'll go for 2.0 and it will work.

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50 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

are you being deliberately obtuse?

"darkest period of human history" . I'm talking about the Holocaust you fool.

How can you walk it back to 1986 when the Elan have already been occupying their new homeland for 40 years?

You're either so invested in the status quo that you've lost any ability you may have had to re assess a situation or you didn't read my post.

I'm asking you to do a hypothetical with a similar situation and you jump right into Israel in 1986.

Instead of the Elan (apologies to Mick Farren) imagine how you'd solve a situation with any other peoples forcibly moved and wishing to reoccupy  hundreds or thousands of years later.

The Scots in the glens in the 18th century? 

How would you do it differently to avoid the same mess that palistine/Israel is in now.

Use your imagination ..if you have one

 

You're trying to unscramble a *cooked* plate of scrambled egg.

FKT

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