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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Crossbow fl 2017--This thing has such great potential that it needs to be mentioned every now and then:

Summary of Features and Specifications:
-------------------------------
Features:
1) Self-bailing cockpit
2) Boat rightable from 90+ degree knockdown by crew w/o crew movement using the wing regardless of the position of the sliding ballast.
a. ballast wing is sealed and has buoyancy much greater than that required to float the ballast sliding inside.
b. ballast+ wing can be moved manually or electrically faster than a crew on a trapeze could move.
3) Rig utilizes modified rotating, A Class wing mast, sealed with masthead buoyancy to prevent turtling,
4) Ballast wing pivots:
a. to allow trailering
b. to move ballast aft when required with wing extension.
c. also pivots athwartship to keep weight low to windward and to keep lee side of wing clear of water.
5) Ballast is adjustable in 10lb increments,
6) Boat can be sailed off a beach,
7) Boat features an asymetrical spinnaker, an underdeck spinnaker chute and retractable bow pole,
8) Seating arrangement: (NEW) .
a. The skipper will sit relatively low in the boat on a seat that will manually or electrically rotate 180 degrees. This will allow the skipper to steer with his or her aft hand and handle the single sheet and Trapeze Power Ballast System with their forward hand. For Class racing weight equal to the difference between 250lb. and the skippers weight will be carried in a ballast compartment under the seat. 250lb is the maximum crew weight for racing.
9) Large, buoyant "spray rails" act to help provide a dry ride and knockdown recovery,
10) Self-tending jib with variation of Swift solo single sheet system.
11) Boat uses removable, "plug-in" DSS foils for greatly increased power to carry sail with speed.
12) The new changes effectively "turbo" the boat even allowing for windward planing.
13) Boat has an extremely wide crew weight range: approx 100lb to 250lb for normal sailing. All ratios are based on 250lb crew and would drastically improve with lighter crew weight. For class racing, it would be my desire to see a class adopt the maximum crew weight as standard with lighter crew carrying weight under the seat-or perhaps two "weight classes"-whatever it takes to encourage the widest participation.
-------------
Specifications: (changes are to be expected)
Hull length-15.6' 
Beam- 4.75'
---at waterline-3.75'
Sail Area-(boat will use a carbon A Class wing mast from Matt McDonald/ Falcon Marine LLC, laid up specifically for this boat).
--upwind- 161 sq.ft.
-- downwind- 290 sq.ft.
Weight-sailing weight w/o crew- 223lb which includes:
--hull, rig, foils-124lb
--Trapeze Power Ballast System:
---wing-21lb. @ 12'-16' length overall, pivots for transport, and moving weight aft.
--- max ballast 78lb(8 pieces of lead-removable-.25" X 8" X 12"-about 9.72lb each)
Max Crew weight: 250lb-boat is designed as a singlehander.
All up sailing weight including crew-473lb
DSS Foils: each 1.63 sq.ft.( 6" X 39") 6.5/1 aspect ratio, Welbourn section.
Electrical System for moving ballast: Engineered by Rick Willoughby, who did the original "ballast mover" spread sheet.
-------
Ratios-
see Eric Sponbergs Design Ratio's PDF below
-------------
DLR=55.6 
---
SA/D=
--upwind-42.48
--downwind- 76.78
---
SA/ws-
--3.7/1 
--3.48/1 including DSS foil
---
SCP/Total weight= .3 and .34 if upwind RM from DSS foil is counted.
===========

 

Attached Files:

  •  

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

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Model Testing of Trapeze Power Ballast System:

pix Bruce McDaniel-

Scow PBS 001.JPG

Super Scow-new-old-picture_002.JPG

Super Scow using Trapeze Power Ballast System (1).JPG

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why don't you just market it as a fast radio controlled boat instead of going bankrupt trying to make an overly complicated and prohibitively expensive full sized boat. 

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A lot of people that wouldn't be able to sail a performance monohull  would be able to if a boat like Crossbow fl was available. It would add a whole new dimension to high performance small monohulls.

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OK.............................

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I think you should rent a building, hire boatbuilders and go into production. You're guaranteed to get a small fortune, provided you start with a large one.

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I'll bite.  Seems to me its like an International canoe, with the sliding seat, except in this case, the skipper doesn't sit on the seat, but rather a ballast pod on each end of the seat.  It is an interesting concept.  Personally, I don't like the idea of electrics in dinghies that are able to capsize.  Working out an efficient system to move the ballast wing could be fun.

And for all those who love to shit on Doug and his ideas, didn't the past few generations of AC boats use some of the foil technology he has been preaching about for the past 10 years?  So he isn't all wrong.

The other thing is, even if his ideas are somewhat radical, and often end up being more talk than anything else, at least the guy is thinking about stuff, and trying to get his work out there.  Kinda not cool for those of us who aren't really doing anything original to hop online and shit all over a guy that's at least thinking about new stuff.  This is Anarchy, after all.

Doug, good luck with this one, even if it never gets off the drawing board.  If it does, bring one to OH for me to try out and I'll buy a round of your favorite imbibement.

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5 hours ago, sail611 said:

I'll bite.  Seems to me its like an International canoe, with the sliding seat, except in this case, the skipper doesn't sit on the seat, but rather a ballast pod on each end of the seat.  It is an interesting concept.  Personally, I don't like the idea of electrics in dinghies that are able to capsize.  Working out an efficient system to move the ballast wing could be fun.

And for all those who love to shit on Doug and his ideas, didn't the past few generations of AC boats use some of the foil technology he has been preaching about for the past 10 years?  So he isn't all wrong.

The other thing is, even if his ideas are somewhat radical, and often end up being more talk than anything else, at least the guy is thinking about stuff, and trying to get his work out there.  Kinda not cool for those of us who aren't really doing anything original to hop online and shit all over a guy that's at least thinking about new stuff.  This is Anarchy, after all.

Doug, good luck with this one, even if it never gets off the drawing board.  If it does, bring one to OH for me to try out and I'll buy a round of your favorite imbibement.

Thanks---will do!  What a great post-there were negative-"it will never work" reactions when I first tried movable ballast on models. It did work and was extraordinary fun to sail-just like the Crossbow fl will be........

Just a note: there are many different boats directed at handicapped sailors using sophisticated electrical systems very successfully. Crossbow fl is not specifically directed at handicapped sailors-it is directed at all sailors that would enjoy a spectacular new way to sail a monohull fast without the physical demands of current performance monohulls.

Melges 24 RC Power Ballast System.jpg

Micro foiler 1.jpg

 

Micro foiler 2.jpg

m24c6_asy spin-pbs.jpg

2007-01-25 11.06.38.jpg

Melges 24RC Trapeze Power Ballast System.jpg

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FFS!!!

How about you show us the system working in, say, 10 knots plus with some tacks and gybes. Why is it that every single one of your models is only shown sailing in sub 5 knots? Don't you realise that in those conditions it proves nothing at all.

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10 hours ago, sail611 said:

And for all those who love to shit on Doug and his ideas, didn't the past few generations of AC boats use some of the foil technology he has been preaching about for the past 10 years?

No.

Doug was all into T foils with flaps until the AC boats showed that J foils worked. He added all sorts of features to his foils: iFlap, "wash–in", etc. that have not only not been adopted, but developments have gone the other way. Some of his designs adopted features of Hugh Welbourn's Quant foils (which he acknowledged, so that's not a criticism).

But I've probably said enough already to turn this into yet another thread full of the same claims, images and multi–colured text as all Doug's other threads.

BTW, Doug has been posting about his "Crossbow fl" for over 5 years over on BoatDesign.net. Maybe it's a fantastic design that will revolutionize sailing, just like SpeedDream was supposed to. So far results have been roughly equivalent.

Quote

The other thing is, even if his ideas are somewhat radical, and often end up being more talk than anything else, at least the guy is thinking about stuff, and trying to get his work out there.  Kinda not cool for those of us who aren't really doing anything original to hop online and shit all over a guy that's at least thinking about new stuff.  This is Anarchy, after all.

Criticism of Doug stems mostly from his hyperbolic, unsubstantiated claims accompanied by posting and re–posting of the same material over and over again, across any thread that is remotely concerned with hydrofoils. Watch this space…

If Doug had any brains, he'd start a blog or web site so instead of publishing his stuff across multiple threads over multiple sites running for 8 or 9 years with many thousands of posts (and reposts of reposts of reposts ad infinitum), he could just keep current information on a couple of pages.

Anyway, I think I'm about to get the red letter treatment (or whatever the quoting colour of the day is).

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Totally impractical like all HWSNBM’s crap. How do you come alongside with that?. Still waiting for that photo of DL foiling..........

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1 hour ago, Major Tom said:

Totally impractical.......

No, its not. The boat is designed to be sailed off a beach but could come up to a dock once you learned to sail it depending on the dock. The Trapeze wing pivots for trailering.

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3 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Totally impractical like all HWSNBM’s crap. How do you come alongside with that?.

Probably the same way as you would for any boat with a sliding seat, such as an Int Canoe. The idea is stupid enough without needing to put up false arguments;)

Quote

Still waiting for that photo of DL foiling..........

There aren't any because he hasn't ever foiled  - you know the rule, Doug, because you keep posting it all the time - "photo/video or it didn't happen".

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On 12/12/2017 at 11:12 AM, sail611 said:

I'll bite.  Seems to me its like an International canoe, with the sliding seat, except in this case, the skipper doesn't sit on the seat, but rather a ballast pod on each end of the seat.  It is an interesting concept.  Personally, I don't like the idea of electrics in dinghies that are able to capsize.  Working out an efficient system to move the ballast wing could be fun.

And for all those who love to shit on Doug and his ideas, didn't the past few generations of AC boats use some of the foil technology he has been preaching about for the past 10 years?  So he isn't all wrong.

The other thing is, even if his ideas are somewhat radical, and often end up being more talk than anything else, at least the guy is thinking about stuff, and trying to get his work out there.  Kinda not cool for those of us who aren't really doing anything original to hop online and shit all over a guy that's at least thinking about new stuff.  This is Anarchy, after all.

Doug, good luck with this one, even if it never gets off the drawing board.  If it does, bring one to OH for me to try out and I'll buy a round of your favorite imbibement.

Well, I very very rarely comment on any Doug Lord threads and probably should not get into this one, but.................

Doug Lord likes to paint himself as teh persecuted genius, but he doesn't understand the basic physics of sailing and none of his ideas have ever worked in the real world and generally don't work all that well in the model world. If he's claiming that the America's Cup cats are using his technology, he's completely full of baloney.

For example, the ballasted slider idea..... not new, it was done at least as far back as the 1840s and probably further. Unlike the IC class or Skate classes, Doug's models have never shown that they are faster than their conventionally-ballasted sisters. This would be very very basic in proving the worth of a concept, and with models, it would be very inexpensive. Yet he's reacted violently to the suggestions. And this is on par with the rest of his bullshit, check out his alternate whining and bullying in the "RC Multihulls" thread.

You seem like a nice guy. Don't get sucked in by Doug Lord's self-aggrandizing bloviation.

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, I very very rarely comment on any Doug Lord threads and probably should not get into this one, but.................

Doug Lord likes to paint himself as teh persecuted genius, but he doesn't understand the basic physics of sailing and none of his ideas have ever worked in the real world and generally don't work all that well in the model world. If he's claiming that the America's Cup cats are using his technology, he's completely full of baloney.

For example, the ballasted slider idea..... not new, it was done at least as far back as the 1840s and probably further. Unlike the IC class or Skate classes, Doug's models have never shown that they are faster than their conventionally-ballasted sisters. This would be very very basic in proving the worth of a concept, and with models, it would be very inexpensive. Yet he's reacted violently to the suggestions. And this is on par with the rest of his bullshit, check out his alternate whining and bullying in the "RC Multihulls" thread.

You seem like a nice guy. Don't get sucked in by Doug Lord's self-aggrandizing bloviation.

-DSK

Absolutely false-just invented by you!

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On 12/12/2017 at 8:12 AM, sail611 said:

I'll bite.  Seems to me its like an International canoe, with the sliding seat, except in this case, the skipper doesn't sit on the seat, but rather a ballast pod on each end of the seat.  It is an interesting concept.  Personally, I don't like the idea of electrics in dinghies that are able to capsize.  Working out an efficient system to move the ballast wing could be fun.

And for all those who love to shit on Doug and his ideas, didn't the past few generations of AC boats use some of the foil technology he has been preaching about for the past 10 years?  So he isn't all wrong.

The other thing is, even if his ideas are somewhat radical, and often end up being more talk than anything else, at least the guy is thinking about stuff, and trying to get his work out there.  Kinda not cool for those of us who aren't really doing anything original to hop online and shit all over a guy that's at least thinking about new stuff.  This is Anarchy, after all.

Doug, good luck with this one, even if it never gets off the drawing board.  If it does, bring one to OH for me to try out and I'll buy a round of your favorite imbibement.

I don't mind the ideas, out of the box thinking, all that is great. But Doug has singlehandedly chased away some damn fine contributors over the years with his constant berating of others ideas and input.

 

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3 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Absolutely false-just invented by you!

OK then

Let's see something documenting how your model Melges 24 with the sliding ballast is faster than another stock M-24 model.

You never did answer the simple question I asked months ago about how a foil generates lift. Is it because you don't know?

2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I don't mind the ideas, out of the box thinking, all that is great. But Doug has singlehandedly chased away some damn fine contributors over the years with his constant berating of others ideas and input.

 

Yep, Sailing Anarchy, the place where a person who has never sailed a foiling craft insults a world champion Moth sailor, and quite literally tells him he doesn't understand how foils  work.

-DSK

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There was only one Melges 24 RC model and I experimented with the Trapeze Power Ballast System on that boat-it was definitely faster than the version with just a keel. It was a production prototype and also used an asy spin with retracting pole. 

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Oh no.  The cancer has now spread to dinghy anarchy?!  Is no Anarchy safe from the man of many colors, strange capitalization and self aggrandizement claims, but little wisdom?

Use the ignore feature DA.  It is your friend although many threads end up looking like this...

You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
 
I think he made it up to 10 posts in one thread before anyone responded, LOL.  I must admit I am tempted to unblock him and look to see what he is up to over here.  A new bath tub toy with foils I take it?  Or is it the same old failed one endlessly repeated...
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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

Oh no.  The cancer has now spread to dinghy anarchy?!  Is no Anarchy safe from the man of many colors, strange capitalization and self aggrandizement claims, but little wisdom?

Use the ignore feature DA.  It is your friend although many threads end up looking like this...

You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
You've chosen to ignore content by Doug Lord. Options
 
I think he made it up to 10 posts in one thread before anyone responded, LOL.  I must admit I am tempted to unblock him and look to see what he is up to over here.  A new bath tub toy with foils I take it?  Or is it the same old failed one endlessly repeated...

How do you ignore?

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7 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

How do you ignore?

Its easy but changed.  Put your cursor over the person's name in any thread and leave it there for a few moments.  A small window will open with one of the options at the bottom being "ignore user".  When you click on that you get options like below where you can ignore posts, messages, signatures and mentions.  What I copied has @Steam Flyer name because he was the last post in the thread I could copy this from... I don't recommend ignoring him.  Actually of all the nuts on Anarchy DL is by far the nuttiest and the only one I ever ignored.  Took me a while to figure out how to get him back on ignore after the forum change but above works!

 

Add new user to ignore list

Enter a member's name to set ignore options

 

    • Steam Flyer ×
  • Ignore:
    • Posts
    • Messages
    • Signature
    • Mentions
  •  

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42 minutes ago, Wess said:

Its easy but changed.  Put your cursor over the person's name in any thread and leave it there for a few moments.  A small window will open with one of the options at the bottom being "ignore user".  When you click on that you get options like below where you can ignore posts, messages, signatures and mentions.  What I copied has @Steam Flyer name because he was the last post in the thread I could copy this from... I don't recommend ignoring him.  Actually of all the nuts on Anarchy DL is by far the nuttiest and the only one I ever ignored.  Took me a while to figure out how to get him back on ignore after the forum change but above works!

 

Add new user to ignore list

Enter a member's name to set ignore options

 

    • Steam Flyer ×
  • Ignore:
    • Posts
    • Messages
    • Signature
    • Mentions
  •  

Ha!

I've been ignored in better threads than THIS one!!  B)

-DSK

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12 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ha!

I've been ignored in better threads than THIS one!!  B)

-DSK

Sorry about that.  Realized it was implying I was ignoring you which I am not.  But couldn't edit the post any more...  Ugh!  Doug Lord is the only person on SA I have ever ignored.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sorry about that.  Realized it was implying I was ignoring you which I am not.  But couldn't edit the post any more...  Ugh!  Doug Lord is the only person on SA I have ever ignored.

S'OK I was kidding.

Doug Lord is a PITA that won't go away, but I have never ignored anybody here. It's Anarchy after all.

One character weakness of mine is that I occasionally enjoy needling the stupids (hey that's what the Internet was invented for, right?) but I have kept clear of Doug Lord threads. There's just no point. But I wanted to steer 'sail611' away from the abyss if I could. I hope this is not characterized as "shitting all over somebody's original ideas" but if Doug Lord comes up with the goods to show that he's not just full of horse feathers, then I will be glad to apologize and recommend his genius-ness to everybody.

-DSK

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22 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I don't mind the ideas, out of the box thinking, all that is great. But Doug has singlehandedly chased away some damn fine contributors over the years with his constant berating of others ideas and input.

 

Yep. The internet had it's chance ... all the interesting conversations happen in private now.

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On 12/7/2017 at 4:18 PM, Doug Lord said:

Crossbow fl 2017--This thing has such great potential that it needs to be mentioned every now and then:

Summary of Features and Specifications:
-------------------------------
Features:
1) Self-bailing cockpit
2) Boat rightable from 90+ degree knockdown by crew w/o crew movement using the wing regardless of the position of the sliding ballast.
a. ballast wing is sealed and has buoyancy much greater than that required to float the ballast sliding inside.
b. ballast+ wing can be moved manually or electrically faster than a crew on a trapeze could move.
3) Rig utilizes modified rotating, A Class wing mast, sealed with masthead buoyancy to prevent turtling,
4) Ballast wing pivots:
a. to allow trailering
b. to move ballast aft when required with wing extension.
c. also pivots athwartship to keep weight low to windward and to keep lee side of wing clear of water.
5) Ballast is adjustable in 10lb increments,
6) Boat can be sailed off a beach,
7) Boat features an asymetrical spinnaker, an underdeck spinnaker chute and retractable bow pole,
8) Seating arrangement: (NEW) .
a. The skipper will sit relatively low in the boat on a seat that will manually or electrically rotate 180 degrees. This will allow the skipper to steer with his or her aft hand and handle the single sheet and Trapeze Power Ballast System with their forward hand. For Class racing weight equal to the difference between 250lb. and the skippers weight will be carried in a ballast compartment under the seat. 250lb is the maximum crew weight for racing.
9) Large, buoyant "spray rails" act to help provide a dry ride and knockdown recovery,
10) Self-tending jib with variation of Swift solo single sheet system.
11) Boat uses removable, "plug-in" DSS foils for greatly increased power to carry sail with speed.
12) The new changes effectively "turbo" the boat even allowing for windward planing.
13) Boat has an extremely wide crew weight range: approx 100lb to 250lb for normal sailing. All ratios are based on 250lb crew and would drastically improve with lighter crew weight. For class racing, it would be my desire to see a class adopt the maximum crew weight as standard with lighter crew carrying weight under the seat-or perhaps two "weight classes"-whatever it takes to encourage the widest participation.
-------------
Specifications: (changes are to be expected)
Hull length-15.6' 
Beam- 4.75'
---at waterline-3.75'
Sail Area-(boat will use a carbon A Class wing mast from Matt McDonald/ Falcon Marine LLC, laid up specifically for this boat).
--upwind- 161 sq.ft.
-- downwind- 290 sq.ft.
Weight-sailing weight w/o crew- 223lb which includes:
--hull, rig, foils-124lb
--Trapeze Power Ballast System:
---wing-21lb. @ 12'-16' length overall, pivots for transport, and moving weight aft.
--- max ballast 78lb(8 pieces of lead-removable-.25" X 8" X 12"-about 9.72lb each)
Max Crew weight: 250lb-boat is designed as a singlehander.
All up sailing weight including crew-473lb
DSS Foils: each 1.63 sq.ft.( 6" X 39") 6.5/1 aspect ratio, Welbourn section.
Electrical System for moving ballast: Engineered by Rick Willoughby, who did the original "ballast mover" spread sheet.
-------
Ratios-
see Eric Sponbergs Design Ratio's PDF below
-------------
DLR=55.6 
---
SA/D=
--upwind-42.48
--downwind- 76.78
---
SA/ws-
--3.7/1 
--3.48/1 including DSS foil
---
SCP/Total weight= .3 and .34 if upwind RM from DSS foil is counted.
===========

 

Attached Files:

  •  

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

Crossbow fl-- One thing that is being tested shortly on another model is independent radio control of the movable ballast-in other words the module for the Trapeze Power Ballast System contains its own battery and receiver completely independent of the boat receiver-yet both operate off the same transmitter. This has led to the possibility of using high quality electronics on the full size boat to allow radio control of the ballast system inside the sealed wing with its own receiver, battery and electric motor making the full size system 100% independent. 

Dominion 2-HW with "C" rig and "A" rig patterns-nearly ready to test with the new ,independent Trapeze Power Ballast System:

pictures-dl

D2  8-11-16 012.JPG

D2 sail patterns A rig 11-23-16 005.JPG

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7 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

True for most of SA

 

yep, but when I sail, can't I get away from the damn thing?

 

(PS - those numbers on weight of the boat are HIGH. As in, Doug's been smoking the ganja.  my little 14'er, carbon/foam everything, weighs 145 lbs without mast and/or blades.)

 

As spec'd out in Doug'ies post - I'd say 1) weight is unattainable unless nomex/prepreg and baked.  And if that's the production model, you're looking at a $60,000 toy, that you sail by yourself, in an office chair.

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14 hours ago, Raz'r said:

So, just to understand, the skipper sits in an office chair and doesn't move?

 

Sounds exactly like DL the armchair expert of all things foiling who cannot post one picture of himself foiling despite having been asked to do so numerous times over the last 8 years. Also an expert of reposting things over and over again when people question his logic, or lack there of.

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17 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

True for most of SA

 

Actually no: I went to the fridge on a gybe.

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A number of things bothers me about this project.  In general. I don't believe the numbers support Doug's enthusiasm. I think it is important to realize that what Doug wants is someone to buy in and pay for the full scale development of his ideas. He is selling and will only show what presents him is the best possible light. Hence the stickers and graphics and presentation photos instead of a  testing schedule that proves concept and demonstrates refinement. I don't really know what the problem is, but he seems unable to launch and retrieve a model from the front yard or dock, which seems to make sailing his models as arduous as sailing a fucking C Class catamaran.

What is proposed is a 15.5 foot hull with a waterline beam of just under 4 feet. Not dissimilar to a 470. The overall displacement of 475 is a bit lighter, but not a whole lot. The righting moment provided by the 16 foot "trap wing" is at best 624 ft/lbs. this is equivalent to moving the crew's 250 lbs to windward 3.12 feet, equivalent to hiking on a Vanguard 15, or sitting on the edge of a Merlin Rocket.  There is a lot of complication and expense associated with this relatively paltry amount of stability, to say nothing of significant aerodynamic drag. So I think the claim that this boat will perform any better than a conventional dinghy is a hard case to make. 

The addition of Welborne Foils may make a difference, but comes with a pile of complication and trade offs, like a huge addition of wetted surface, that might, on balance, hurt more than help. This is something that could be tested at model scale, but would require a systematic program to establish meaningful results.

Put 100 lbs at the bottom of a pretty deep daggerboard an add enough flare to the topsides to hit a 6' overall beam, you will have a pretty conventional sailing dinghy that might right itself from a capsize if the rig is kept light enough.

Doug, a word of advice: show don't tell. Post lots of videos of your creations sailing around a breakneck speed in all conditions and show success as well as failure and we will all follow your efforts with interest. Figure out how to do it.  Repeating extravagant claims and arguing ad nauseum does not achieve your goals.

Merry Christmas

SHC

 

 

 

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On December 13, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Doug Lord said:

Absolutely false-just invented by you!

Post a vid of you foiling...or sailing any performance boat.

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2 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

A number of things bothers me about this project.  In general. I don't believe the numbers support Doug's enthusiasm. I think it is important to realize that what Doug wants is someone to buy in and pay for the full scale development of his ideas. He is selling and will only show what presents him is the best possible light. Hence the stickers and graphics and presentation photos instead of a  testing schedule that proves concept and demonstrates refinement. I don't really know what the problem is, but he seems unable to launch and retrieve a model from the front yard or dock, which seems to make sailing his models as arduous as sailing a fucking C Class catamaran.

What is proposed is a 15.5 foot hull with a waterline beam of just under 4 feet. Not dissimilar to a 470. The overall displacement of 475 is a bit lighter, but not a whole lot. The righting moment provided by the 16 foot "trap wing" is at best 624 ft/lbs. this is equivalent to moving the crew's 250 lbs to windward 3.12 feet, equivalent to hiking on a Vanguard 15, or sitting on the edge of a Merlin Rocket.  There is a lot of complication and expense associated with this relatively paltry amount of stability, to say nothing of significant aerodynamic drag. So I think the claim that this boat will perform any better than a conventional dinghy is a hard case to make. 

The addition of Welborne Foils may make a difference, but comes with a pile of complication and trade offs, like a huge addition of wetted surface, that might, on balance, hurt more than help. This is something that could be tested at model scale, but would require a systematic program to establish meaningful results.

Put 100 lbs at the bottom of a pretty deep daggerboard an add enough flare to the topsides to hit a 6' overall beam, you will have a pretty conventional sailing dinghy that might right itself from a capsize if the rig is kept light enough.

Doug, a word of advice: show don't tell. Post lots of videos of your creations sailing around a breakneck speed in all conditions and show success as well as failure and we will all follow your efforts with interest. Figure out how to do it.  Repeating extravagant claims and arguing ad nauseum does not achieve your goals.

Merry Christmas

SHC

 

 

 

Thanks, Steve. Merry Christmas to you and your family!

PS- I think you missed that the whole wing slides to windward-not just the ballast. See the scow picture below for the basic idea. The wing will right the boat if it is moved down in a capsize even with the ballast at the low point because of the buoyancy of the sealed wing. If the wing is moved to leeward at the onset of a capsize it will prevent a knockdown. Based on initial testing of this system, it seems unlikely that ballast will have to be added to the daggerboard.

In the specs, the length of the ballast wing is shown as between 12 and 16'. At 14' the 78lb of movable ballast will move about 12' to windward of the boat heeled CB giving 12X 78=936ftlb. The nominal weight of the wing is 21lb and its cg is about 7' to windward giving an additional 7X 21= 147ftlb . The total RM from the 14' wing is about 1083ft.lb..

The latest incarnation of the crew seating allows the crew CG to be 2' to windward of the CB adding another 360ftlb for a 180lb crew. That would be increased by the difference between 180 and 250*(max crew weight) which would add another  140ft.lb.. Total RM for crew + wing would be 1583ft.lb.. 

* crew equalization ballast in the seat.

Crossbow rotational seat.jpg

Scow PBS 001.JPG

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On 12/17/2017 at 9:53 AM, Doug Lord said:

Crossbow rotational seat.jpg

 

:lol::lol::lol: Seriously? Should win the award for the best technical sketch of 2017.:wacko:

Also funny how you failed to heed Steve's advice. I will repeat it for you.

On 12/17/2017 at 7:47 AM, Steve Clark said:

Doug, a word of advice: show don't tell. Post lots of videos of your creations sailing around a breakneck speed in all conditions and show success as well as failure and we will all follow your efforts with interest. Figure out how to do it.  Repeating extravagant claims and arguing ad nauseum does not achieve your goals.

But best quote of 2017 actually goes to this piece of astute observation.

On 12/17/2017 at 7:47 AM, Steve Clark said:

he seems unable to launch and retrieve a model from the front yard or dock, which seems to make sailing his models as arduous as sailing a fucking C Class catamaran.

 

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The whole thing is farcical. Apparently it can be built to proportionally 6kg less than an A Class minimum weight (which professional builders struggle to achieve), despite being a monohull with twice the sail area and 3 sails, including a spinnaker and retractable bowsprit.

The "ballast system" has a sealed tube 5m long with an internal system for sliding the ballast, an external system for sliding the tube, a pivot for rotating horizontally and tilting span-wise with controls for all that and yet weighs less than 10kg (the weight of a well built carbon/foam/vacuum Moth hull that's only 3.35m long, doesn't have a tipping, rotating hinge in the middle and doesn't have to withstand 35kg of lead sliding around inside it). Apparently it can be manually or electrically operated—no estimate of weight for motivators and batteries, nor how the tube tilts.

There's no indication of how the single crew is supposed to operate the sliding, tilting ballast system along with 3 sails and the DSS foil all while sitting in a seat that slides on a circular track (fuck getting caught on the lee side and trying to slide around and up to windward). I'd like to see a detailed rundown on the sequence of moves for a tack, I'd reckon it's a full time job just operating the ballast system. And single–handedly gybing 3 sails, ballast system, DSS foil, wing mast and rotating seat… does anything more need to be said?

How would it go extending the ballast system to windward if there's another boat in the way? Or do you just send 40kg of tube plus lead into the other boat and worry about the damage later?

It has a wing mast, but no indication of how it's controlled. Wing masts only work on cats because they use a main sheet and traveler with no vang, where's the traveler on this boat? If it's behind the crew, where does the sheet go to avoid the ballast system but still be easy to hand and able to be cleated (which will be essential given all the things the crew must control)?

Maybe "haters gotta' hate", but "this thing has such great potential…" only for disaster.

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On 12/13/2017 at 1:29 PM, Team_GBR said:

Probably the same way as you would for any boat with a sliding seat, such as an Int Canoe. The idea is stupid enough without needing to put up false arguments;)

There aren't any because he hasn't ever foiled  - you know the rule, Doug, because you keep posting it all the time - "photo/video or it didn't happen".

I'm not a fan of Doug's by any means given that he keeps posting the same images videos, and claims over the last five years without any progression.  However, and I would need to go back to look at who it was but somebody figured it out, in my opinion, and I think it requires that everybody take a deep breath and realize something.  In the Multihull Forum, Radio Control Multihull topic, somebody realized that what Doug has been writing adds up to the fact that he is an adaptive person (I dislike the term handicap as the adaptive athletes I work with are mighty impressive).  As a result we're not likely to see a full size version, ever, unless he gets help.  And the reason why his RC boats don't sail enough, is because he needs help.  He pretty much admitted it in post #11 on this thread.  The whole design of this boat is around adaptive sailors. 

Doug, if I'm wrong, please correct me.  I don't want to sound like I am assuming something.  

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By the way, Doug, I'm not sure if they would welcome the work but if you made a scale model of this boat per Steve Clark's suggestion, I think we could ask around and get it tank tested for you to see if it works.  All you'd have to do is ship it.  I believe, and I would have to check on this before making a full promise, that I know somebody at the tank in MD who may be able to test a fun side project when the tank is available. 

All you'd have to do is to build it, box it, and ship it to the tank and maybe give some parameters on how you think it should sail.

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

I'm not a fan of Doug's by any means given that he keeps posting the same images videos, and claims over the last five years without any progression.  However, and I would need to go back to look at who it was but somebody figured it out, in my opinion, and I think it requires that everybody take a deep breath and realize something.  In the Multihull Forum, Radio Control Multihull topic, somebody realized that what Doug has been writing adds up to the fact that he is an adaptive person (I dislike the term handicap as the adaptive athletes I work with are mighty impressive).  As a result we're not likely to see a full size version, ever, unless he gets help.  And the reason why his RC boats don't sail enough, is because he needs help.  He pretty much admitted it in post #11 on this thread.  The whole design of this boat is around adaptive sailors. 

Doug, if I'm wrong, please correct me.  I don't want to sound like I am assuming something.  

That is my hunch, but I hesitate to even ask as it’s none of my biz. But if he is designing for adaptive sailors, that’s a great fucking mission and one that hasn’t been tackled well.  

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4 hours ago, WCB said:

The whole design of this boat is around adaptive sailors. 

 

If that's the target market, this boat is a death trap.

You're safe in your offer of tank testing as you'll never see a working scale model or full sized boat because it's a practical impossibility to build to the specification. I'm not sure tank testing would prove anything that couldn't be tested on a quite pond with a gentle breeze. Far better would be to test the tilting/sliding "power ballast system" on an old Laser to see if it can keep the boat upright with the crew sitting in the middle of the boat.

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

 

If that's the target market, this boat is a death trap. That is not true!!

You're safe in your offer of tank testing as you'll never see a working scale model or full sized boat because it's a practical impossibility to build to the specification. I'm not sure tank testing would prove anything that couldn't be tested on a quite pond with a gentle breeze. Far better would be to test the tilting/sliding "power ballast system" on an old Laser to see if it can keep the boat upright with the crew sitting in the middle of the boat.

That would be a complete waste of development time. The models have already proved conclusively that movable ballast works and , not only that,  is a lot of fun.

 The wing with the lead at the bottom and the boat at 90 degrees has shown that due to the buoyancy of the wing the boat will right itself.

The best way to proceed is to build a fullsize prototype and sail the hell out of it. With the 14' wing and the curved sliding seat(electrical or manual) the boat has about 88% of the RM of an International 14-so lots of power.

The boat is designed to be able to be sailed by ablebodied people as well as some levels of "adaptive"/ handicapped sailors.

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8 hours ago, WCB said:

By the way, Doug, I'm not sure if they would welcome the work but if you made a scale model of this boat per Steve Clark's suggestion, I think we could ask around and get it tank tested for you to see if it works.  All you'd have to do is ship it.  I believe, and I would have to check on this before making a full promise, that I know somebody at the tank in MD who may be able to test a fun side project when the tank is available. 

All you'd have to do is to build it, box it, and ship it to the tank and maybe give some parameters on how you think it should sail.

WCB, thanks for the offer but we have built numerous models using the basic RC movable ballast system and one model to specifically test the buoyancy of the wing and its ability to right the boat even with the lead at the bottom of the sealed wing-worked well.

The next step is to build a full size version of the boat.

PS- a new model using the Trapeze Power Ballast System on a foiling keelboat is nearly finished.

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10 hours ago, RobG said:

The whole thing is farcical. Apparently it can be built to proportionally 6kg less than an A Class minimum weight (which professional builders struggle to achieve), despite being a monohull with twice the sail area and 3 sails, including a spinnaker and retractable bowsprit.

The "ballast system" has a sealed tube 5m long with an internal system for sliding the ballast, an external system for sliding the tube, a pivot for rotating horizontally and tilting span-wise with controls for all that and yet weighs less than 10kg (the weight of a well built carbon/foam/vacuum Moth hull that's only 3.35m long, doesn't have a tipping, rotating hinge in the middle and doesn't have to withstand 35kg of lead sliding around inside it). Apparently it can be manually or electrically operated—no estimate of weight for motivators and batteries, nor how the tube tilts. The weights are target weights.The wing is attached to the boat by a "tipping", rotating mount that is intensely strong.

There's no indication of how the single crew is supposed to operate the sliding, tilting ballast system along with 3 sails and the DSS foil all while sitting in a seat that slides on a circular track (fuck getting caught on the lee side and trying to slide around and up to windward). I'd like to see a detailed rundown on the sequence of moves for a tack, I'd reckon it's a full time job just operating the ballast system. And single–handedly gybing 3 sails, ballast system, DSS foil, wing mast and rotating seat… does anything more need to be said?  Done with the M24RC model above. There are two potential DSS systems being considered: 1-Original DSS except that the foils are plugged in on the beach and remain fixed in position, 2- DSS 2-where the foils are basically "L" foils that slide up and down vertically and so can be retracted under sail.(see illustration below)

How would it go extending the ballast system to windward if there's another boat in the way? Or do you just send 40kg of tube plus lead into the other boat and worry about the damage later? I guess the answer to this is to ask the IC boys how they do it if you're really concerned. Same with any boat that allows the movavble ballast to extend itself 6' to windward( like any normal trapeze system)

It has a wing mast, but no indication of how it's controlled. Wing masts only work on cats because they use a main sheet and traveler with no vang, where's the traveler on this boat? If it's behind the crew, where does the sheet go to avoid the ballast system but still be easy to hand and able to be cleated (which will be essential given all the things the crew must control)?  You need to get out more: numerous monohulls have wing masts. The initial mainsheet system is midboom coming down  to a traveler behind the TPBS. Wingmast and sheeting won't be finalized until a fullsize proto is built.

Maybe "haters gotta' hate", but "this thing has such great potential…" only for disaster.>  That is simply uninformed bullshit!!!

 

DSS L-dinghy version.png

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Compare your boat to a Devoti D1, which is full carbon/foam construction and rig, has main and genaker (no jib), is nearly 2' shorter and weighs 94kg ready to sail (75kg hull). That's nearly 40kg more than you think you can build your 15' 6" boat for ready to sail (without the ballast system), and you're also going to have a DSS foil system and A Class wing mast. On top of that, you think you can build the tube for the ballast system and its fittings at less than 10kg. Excuse me if I'm a little doubtful of your claims.

The Devoti has a similar sized genaker, but your main rig is 48% bigger than the D1 big rig (16.96 vs 11.5 m2 respectively) and nearly 80% bigger than the small rig. It will be more than a handful.

You haven't supplied any detail of how the sealed tube ballast system works, i.e. how the weight and tilt are motivated or controlled. You haven't even shown how the weight and tube slide from side to side. The system on the red scow is quite different, especially since your boat will not stay upright without the ballast system being actively operated unless you use the tube as an outrigger.

You have to build the ballast system anyway, so why not do that first and see if it actually works before putting it on a hull that as a one-off will likely set you back $50,000 or so? A $400 well used Laser is a drop in the bucket to prove at least some of your claims. I have no idea how much your ballast system would cost, but I'll guess you won't get much change from $10,000 with all the fittings and controls.

But I remain confident that you will never complete the model, much less progress to something more substantial.

PS. Have you purchased a licence for the DSS foil system? What is the licencing cost per boat? If that's commercial in confidence, fine, but at least say whether you've negotiated a cost.

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From the original thread on boatdesign.net:

Crossbow fl--Trapeze Power Ballast System

This boat will use the Trapwing system for additional RM in conjunction with a "plug-in"(or "L" foil) DSS system.
The Trapwing system uses a sealed wing that slides athwartship with ballast sliding simultaneously inside the wing. The ends of the wing are supported by trapeze wires and shock cord allowing the whole unit to pivot athwartship so that when the boat is heeled 10-12 degrees the wing is level. The amount of pivot is adjustable. The buoyancy of the wing exceeds(by several times) that required just to float the ballast. The wing can be moved manually or electrically* and will be faster than a crew on a trapeze from full out to full out. The amount of ballast in the wing can be varied in approx. 10lb increments. The wing can be used to right the boat even with the lead ballast at the bottom of a vertical(90 degrees) wing. Masthead buoyancy and a sealed wing mast contribute to preventing turtling.
In many years of testing variations of this system one thing was abundently clear: it is a blast to sail with this kind of system. The Trapwing system, in conjunction with the DSS foils, gives this boat the capability of planing offwind and, to the best of my knowledge, is the only design of its type featuring a crew that sits "in" a planing hull singlehander with the capability of righting the boat without moving. This can, potentially, open up planing hull sailing to disabled people and people with physical restrictions-a whole new world not available in any current singlehander that I am aware of.
* Boats like the Martin 16 and International 2.4 meter are routinely and successfully equipped with electrical systems for steering and sheeting. The electrical system for moving the Trapwing would be operated using a "joystick" similar to the one used to operate a similar system on numerous radio control test models. The design of the system would ensure that:
a) the weight from max out to max out is faster than any similarly moving crew on a trapeze( 3.5-4seconds max out to max out) and,
b- the movement is possible very frequently for 8-12 hours a day or more. By "very frequently" I mean the design criteria for battery capacity would reflect tacking(max out to max out) every 6 seconds for 8-12 hours depending on owner requirements.

=====================================================

Crossbow fl- DSS system

The boat will use DSS foils for added stability both upwind and downwind. The system is being used with permission of Hugh Welbourn and all results will be forwarded to him in detail. These foils will plug-in to trunks on the side of the boat, port and starboard just forward of the CB(center of buoyancy). Most full size DSS systems use a trunk that allows the foil to slide athwartship or use a trunk that allows the foils to pivot on each side like a centerboard. The "plug-in" concept was chosen for simplicity. The foils are designed to add 158ft.lb. of RM(righting moment) upwind at "hull speed"( that is, at 1.34 X sq.rt. of the waterline length or about 5.12 knots) and 690ft.lb. downwind @ 10 knots boatspeed.
The foils use a section from Hugh Welbourn, inventor of DSS.
The boat is designed to sail at a 10 degree angle of heel so that the leeward foil is a little more than one chord below the surface and so that the windward foil is clear of the water. There will be an inclinometer in the boat to help the skipper sail at 10 degrees and another inclinometer will measure pitch attitude. The angle of incidence of these test foils will be adjustable.
I just want to thank Hugh Welbourn for his generous advice and guidance with this project.
==================
 The effect that lift from the DSS foil has on Bethwaites ratio, SCP/Total Weight is very interesting in that upwind RM from the foil was calculated at a speed of slightly over 5 knots-any faster and the ratio changes significantly. One could draw the conclusion that, on this boat, it may pay to sail a bit lower than "normal" upwind in moderate to strong breeze to pick up rather dramatic increases in RM from the foil with increased speed.
==================
 

Picture-dl-Crossbow fl fullsize plug in DSS foils:
 

Crossbow fl foils -carbonizing complete 7-3-12.jpg

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Let's see,


Hull will be about $20k for foam/carbon. A lot more if made of unobtanium to hit the displacement targets

Rigging will be another $10k

wing and mast? lets say $7500 (minimum)

ballast system, someone said $10k

Foils are $2k each for straight blades, $3500 for the articulating T-foil rudder system, so another $10k (minimum)

Dolly $1k

So $70k

for a 15' dinghy

 

let alone the tooling costs for building the molds.

 

Might be awhile before someone builds it Doug.

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Guys

It's time to calm down!!!  This is Doug Lord we are talking about. Nothing will get beyond the model stage because by the time he has finished playing with this one, there will be a new foil system out and he will be modifying this project to accommodate his new "precious". Even with the model, it will get sailed no more than 2 or 3 times, in almost no wind. There are 101 reasons why the project is flawed, but so are all of Doug's ideas. Is this really worth getting all wound up over?

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35 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Guys

It's time to calm down!!!  This is Doug Lord we are talking about. Nothing will get beyond the model stage because by the time he has finished playing with this one, there will be a new foil system out and he will be modifying this project to accommodate his new "precious". Even with the model, it will get sailed no more than 2 or 3 times, in almost no wind. There are 101 reasons why the project is flawed, but so are all of Doug's ideas. Is this really worth getting all wound up over?

hey, thanks for that.

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11 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Wing masts only work on cats because they use a main sheet and traveler with no vang, where's the traveler on this boat? If it's behind the crew, where does the sheet go to avoid the ballast system but still be easy to hand and able to be cleated (which will be essential given all the things the crew must control)?  You need to get out more: numerous monohulls have wing masts.

I need to get out more? I've done more foiling in 6 months than you've done in your entire life.

Name any wing mast skiff that you've sailed, ever. Now name any current high performance skiff that uses a wing mast anywhere near the chord of an A Class mast. Go sail a Tasar to find out how they tack in a bit of breeze with the vang on, and that's a very simple rotating D section mast. Wing masts don't work if there's a vang with significant load, there's a good reason why the big trimarans have a traveler and no vang.

And you haven't addressed any of the weight or cost issues, or ballast system engineering issues. Not one.

Now you've added "sails at 10­° heal" to introduce more theoretical benefits without addressing any of the obvious issues.

5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Guys

It's time to calm down!!!  This is Doug Lord we are talking about. Nothing will get beyond the model stage because by the time he has finished playing with this one, there will be a new foil system out and he will be modifying this project to accommodate his new "precious". Even with the model, it will get sailed no more than 2 or 3 times, in almost no wind. There are 101 reasons why the project is flawed, but so are all of Doug's ideas. Is this really worth getting all wound up over?

Yeah, sorry, I'm outta here.

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Seems to me Doug should just set up a Model Boat Anarchy forum. I am sure there are lots of model hobbyists that will get pleasure out this stuff. Maybe.

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30 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Seems to me Doug should just set up a Model Boat Anarchy forum. I am sure there are lots of model hobbyists that will get pleasure out this stuff. Maybe.

There was or is a model boat forum that I believe Doug got banned from........

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5 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

There was or is a model boat forum that I believe Doug got banned from........

Too funny!

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9 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

There was or is a model boat forum that I believe Doug got banned from........

Yeah, vague memory about it, some kind of scalability issue. 300 cubits, or something.

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18 hours ago, RobG said:

. Now name any current high performance skiff that uses a wing mast anywhere near the chord of an A Class mast. 

 

http://www.c-tech.co.nz/ArticlesVideos/C-Tech+Wing+Masts.html

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Historic movable ballast:

I just found some details about a story that I'd heard a few years ago-about
"Herreshoff" experimenting with on-deck sliding ballast.
This is from a book "Herreshoff Sailboats" by Gregory O. Jones and lays out some interesting details of the first recorded use of on-deck iron sliding ballast that I've been able to find. Apparently, new rules and sheer terror got in the way of further development though the two boats that used this form of ballast were very fast. The Seawanhaka Corinthian Yacht Club, formed in 1871 banned movable ballast.
Charles Herreshoff built four "Julias" ,the second was outfitted with an athwhartship track for 550lb. of iron ballast to slide. The method was to release the ballast from the windward side and allow it to slide to leeward just as the boat tacked. Charles designed a larger boat "Kelpie" that his two sons built that used a larger sliding ballast system-1000lb! Kelpie was very fast.
This stuff is exciting to read about and one can only speculate how these systems might have been refined over the years. I think modern versions of systems like these using lead or water have a tremendous potential in high performance boats of all sizes. I'm going to concentrate on small boats where I see an exciting opporunity to explore this interesting technology.

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24 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Umm, did you actually read the article?

 yes, did you?    second to last paragraph:

The main advantage we had was the height the wing mast gave us.  We were able to go higher, and at the same speed as other boats.  Given the approaching cyclone, and the subsequent very light weather days, the wing-mast showed very good performance through the whole range of wind conditions.

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25 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

 yes, did you?    second to last paragraph:

The main advantage we had was the height the wing mast gave us.  We were able to go higher, and at the same speed as other boats.  Given the approaching cyclone, and the subsequent very light weather days, the wing-mast showed very good performance through the whole range of wind conditions.

and yet, he's no longer using the rig since it broke, and he didn't bother replacing it.

Of COURSE wings will have some advantages.  But sometimes (almost always) simplicity rules.

 

I know you don't understand this as you think a driver has a lot of time to play with all the gizmos, but there's only a certain number of cycles a brain can process and a body can perform.

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20 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

and yet, he's no longer using the rig since it broke, and he didn't bother replacing it.

Not quite right. He repaired the wing and used it with some success. What Doug missed is that this was in 2001 and since then, the wing mast was put away because while it had bursts of speed, it was not consistent enough. It was also fairly hard to use, being very sensitive to both controls and steering. Overall, it showed why it is a poor choice for the boat Doug has designed.

A couple of years ago, somebody tried a wing mast on an 18' skiff. It also showed promise in a few conditions, but was deemed a failure.

Cats are a very different game, which makes wing masts practical and allows them to work.

Again, this is another example of Doug trying to ram as many different ideas into one boat as possible ion the misguided belief that it will lead to something better than the sum of the parts. The problem is that there are no silver bullets. Unless there is a good reason, such as in a development class where you are trying to push for the last 0.5%,  it really isn't worth loading a one design or a cruising boat with all these "toys". As Steve Clark point out, there are really some pretty simple existing solutions that are well proven which would achieve exactly the same thing as Doug's complex, unproven  and expensive alternatives.

I make the cost of this boat closer to $45-50 k rather than the above mentioned $70k. Even then, nobody will pay that sort of money. It's a total waste of time.

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Fire Arrow wing mast using noggle(bottom pix)* and vang-no adjustment required. Vang does not interfere with mast rotation. Completely automatic mast rotation:

* thanks to Eric Sponberg for the basic idea

 

MPX Fire Arrow--- Reefing---mast cut 005.JPG

Noggle 1-14-14 003.JPG

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57 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

Not quite right. He repaired the wing and used it with some success. What Doug missed is that this was in 2001 and since then, the wing mast was put away because while it had bursts of speed, it was not consistent enough. It was also fairly hard to use, being very sensitive to both controls and steering. Overall, it showed why it is a poor choice for the boat Doug has designed.

A couple of years ago, somebody tried a wing mast on an 18' skiff. It also showed promise in a few conditions, but was deemed a failure.

Cats are a very different game, which makes wing masts practical and allows them to work.

Again, this is another example of Doug trying to ram as many different ideas into one boat as possible ion the misguided belief that it will lead to something better than the sum of the parts. The problem is that there are no silver bullets. Unless there is a good reason, such as in a development class where you are trying to push for the last 0.5%,  it really isn't worth loading a one design or a cruising boat with all these "toys". As Steve Clark point out, there are really some pretty simple existing solutions that are well proven which would achieve exactly the same thing as Doug's complex, unproven  and expensive alternatives.

I make the cost of this boat closer to $45-50 k rather than the above mentioned $70k. Even then, nobody will pay that sort of money. It's a total waste of time.

Having just built(and paid for) a competitive I14, there's no way to touch a more complex, larger, higher tech build with more tech solutions for $40k.  Not if built in the US.

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Doug should put his money where his mouth is and build a full-size prototype and prove its mettle. Otherwise, he's just one more Internet gasbag.

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38 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Doug is anything but just another internet gasbag.  he is the internet hindenberg!

gasberg?
hindenbag?

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Can we start a doomsday clock pinned to the top of the Dinghy Anarchy forum that keeps track of the time until the full size prototype floats?

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25 minutes ago, WCB said:

Can we start a doomsday clock pinned to the top of the Dinghy Anarchy forum that keeps track of the time until the full size prototype floats?

A clock? Wouldn't a 100 year calendar be more appropriate?

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On 12/20/2017 at 8:43 AM, Doug Lord said:

Fire Arrow wing mast using noggle(bottom pix)* and vang-no adjustment required. Vang does not interfere with mast rotation. Completely automatic mast rotation:

* thanks to Eric Sponberg for the basic idea 

MPX Fire Arrow--- Reefing---mast cut 005.JPG

The phrase "no adjustment required" should read "no adjustment possible". Do you really think a skiff doesn't need an adjustable vang? Or is a stainless steel turnbuckle your idea of adjustable? I'd like to see how you're going to implement an adjustable noggle. I don't see anything to control mast rotation (simple to implement but not shown), and there are some awful angles in the vang that will not deal with loads well.

The offset goose neck is is an interesting approach, but not simple and likely quite heavy. I'm sure it's been tried before, if it's a good idea there should be lots of them around. I expect you'll need to reinforce your A Class mast for the loads.

Your intention of using large chunks of stainless steel is a good pointer to the issues you're going to have building this to the target weight. You certainly won't get away with a broomstick boom.

You've been pushing this concept since 2009, claimed in 2010 to have already completed 10 years of testing and said you're going to build the Crossbow fl in 2012. Most of what you've posted here seems to be regurgitated from those times, though you've decided to make it even more complex with DSS foils. By 2013 everyone was sick of you posting about this, but here it is yet again.

I'm really gone this time…

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 I wrote it poorly-of course the extremely powerful vang is adjustable-the noggle is not adjustable and doesn't need to be(except maybe for racing). Just in case you're not familiar with it, the noggle controls the relationship of mast rotation to the boom. The Fire Arrow proto system was made from parts on hand -no attempt to make it pretty or light. Now that we know it works it could be lighter and prettier. Its ideal for a boat that needs a simple system of mast rotation control.

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

 I wrote it poorly-of course the extremely powerful vang is adjustable-the noggle is not adjustable and doesn't need to be(except maybe for racing). Just in case you're not familiar with it, the noggle controls the relationship of mast rotation to the boom. The Fire Arrow proto system was made from parts on hand -no attempt to make it pretty or light. Now that we know it works it could be lighter and prettier. Its ideal for a boat that needs a simple system of mast rotation control.

Light weight means $$$s

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On 12/20/2017 at 2:24 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Doug is anything but just another internet gasbag.  he is the internet hindenberg!

Boy that's funny coming from the Bloviator in Chief!!!

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On 12/7/2017 at 4:18 PM, Doug Lord said:

Crossbow fl 2017--This thing has such great potential that it needs to be mentioned every now and then:

Summary of Features and Specifications:
-------------------------------
Features:
1) Self-bailing cockpit
2) Boat rightable from 90+ degree knockdown by crew w/o crew movement using the wing regardless of the position of the sliding ballast.
a. ballast wing is sealed and has buoyancy much greater than that required to float the ballast sliding inside.
b. ballast+ wing can be moved manually or electrically faster than a crew on a trapeze could move.
3) Rig utilizes modified rotating, A Class wing mast, sealed with masthead buoyancy to prevent turtling,
4) Ballast wing pivots:
a. to allow trailering
b. to move ballast aft when required with wing extension.
c. also pivots athwartship to keep weight low to windward and to keep lee side of wing clear of water.
5) Ballast is adjustable in 10lb increments,
6) Boat can be sailed off a beach,
7) Boat features an asymetrical spinnaker, an underdeck spinnaker chute and retractable bow pole,
8) Seating arrangement: (NEW) .
a. The skipper will sit relatively low in the boat on a seat that will manually or electrically rotate 180 degrees. This will allow the skipper to steer with his or her aft hand and handle the single sheet and Trapeze Power Ballast System with their forward hand. For Class racing weight equal to the difference between 250lb. and the skippers weight will be carried in a ballast compartment under the seat. 250lb is the maximum crew weight for racing.
9) Large, buoyant "spray rails" act to help provide a dry ride and knockdown recovery,
10) Self-tending jib with variation of Swift solo single sheet system.
11) Boat uses removable, "plug-in" DSS foils for greatly increased power to carry sail with speed.
12) The new changes effectively "turbo" the boat even allowing for windward planing.
13) Boat has an extremely wide crew weight range: approx 100lb to 250lb for normal sailing. All ratios are based on 250lb crew and would drastically improve with lighter crew weight. For class racing, it would be my desire to see a class adopt the maximum crew weight as standard with lighter crew carrying weight under the seat-or perhaps two "weight classes"-whatever it takes to encourage the widest participation.
-------------
Specifications: (changes are to be expected)
Hull length-15.6' 
Beam- 4.75'
---at waterline-3.75'
Sail Area-(boat will use a carbon A Class wing mast from Matt McDonald/ Falcon Marine LLC, laid up specifically for this boat).
--upwind- 161 sq.ft.
-- downwind- 290 sq.ft.
Weight-sailing weight w/o crew- 223lb which includes:
--hull, rig, foils-124lb
--Trapeze Power Ballast System:
---wing-21lb. @ 12'-16' length overall, pivots for transport, and moving weight aft.
--- max ballast 78lb(8 pieces of lead-removable-.25" X 8" X 12"-about 9.72lb each)
Max Crew weight: 250lb-boat is designed as a singlehander.
All up sailing weight including crew-473lb
DSS Foils: each 1.63 sq.ft.( 6" X 39") 6.5/1 aspect ratio, Welbourn section.
Electrical System for moving ballast: Engineered by Rick Willoughby, who did the original "ballast mover" spread sheet.
-------
Ratios-
see Eric Sponbergs Design Ratio's PDF below
-------------
DLR=55.6 
---
SA/D=
--upwind-42.48
--downwind- 76.78
---
SA/ws-
--3.7/1 
--3.48/1 including DSS foil
---
SCP/Total weight= .3 and .34 if upwind RM from DSS foil is counted.
===========

 

Attached Files:

  •  

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

Crossbow fl 161SA + one ft 2 (1).jpg

Crossbow fl-primer 006.JPG

 

Crossbow fl trapwing early idea.JPG

 

Crossbow fl-trapwing system-DSS insignia best so far - - Copy.jpg

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