Tempest

Another interesting boat

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ooh. crappy Hughes construction and the bottom 2' of the keel seems to be missing.

"fast off the wind" = a pig upwind

Nice inlay on the table however.

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It was designed as a motorsailer - the 80/20 mean 80% sail 20% motor. S&S design when Olin still ran things.

I disagree about the "crappy Hughes construction" - they built solid boats and saved on the yachty bits & trim.

Rod Stephens "audited" their construction so you know the stuff that mattered was solid.

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6 hours ago, Tempest said:

I'm going to keep posting these things because I find it entertaining and informative when you guys rip them apart :D

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/boa/d/northstar-hughes-40-sailboat/6414240301.html

Fine, but why not put them all in one thread, or add them to one of the existing threads where boats are presented for discussion?

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Yeah - we've already got three Craigslist threads.

Mocking & Not Mocking are all we really need.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah - we've already got three Craigslist threads.

Mocking & Not Mocking are all we really need.

And I keep forgetting which is which. IMHO pretty much all of Craigslist is there for the mocking.

I think Tempest is using us to help prevent another bigger boat from following him home. A noble cause

FB- Doug

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10 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Fine, but why not put them all in one thread, or add them to one of the existing threads where boats are presented for discussion?

 

6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah - we've already got three Craigslist threads.

Mocking & Not Mocking are all we really need.

Agreed.  I didn't want to put these in the mocking threads but a non mocking thread would be good.

2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

And I keep forgetting which is which. IMHO pretty much all of Craigslist is there for the mocking.

I think Tempest is using us to help prevent another bigger boat from following him home. A noble cause

FB- Doug

Ha, kinda.  At some point I will sell the 23 and buy a 40 though.

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Tempest should keep adding to this thread. It's got the right title.

Done and done.

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3 hours ago, Tempest said:

 

Agreed.  I didn't want to put these in the mocking threads but a non mocking thread would be good.

Ha, kinda.  At some point I will sell the 23 and buy a 40 though.

Done and done.

This is exactly where Ajax started, several years ago. He too was chastised for starting multiple threads. He turned into a valuable source of Captain Obvious avatars, and you can follow his lead.  

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

Now that one looks interesting..... I'm a bit leery of an early-1980s mast head rig; loads are high (no, I mean like bust-your-hydraulics high loads) and they were orginally laid out to be sailed by a crew of a dozen+ gorillas. Good looking boat though, bound to be both roomy and have good sailing characteristics (post broach coach).

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

Nice looking boat but the bridge deck and boom height over the cockpit really take the 'cruiser' part out of racer/cruiser.

As Steam Flyer mentions, might be a handful shorthanded.

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50 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

At a certain age  time complicated all yachts become worthless worth more as scrap than as a usable boat....refit costs are simply too high when a survey raises safety and usability issues of the particular yacht and the market offers better options than a necessary refit of that particular yacht to return it to reasonably safe usability .

 

 

FIFY

Hmm, there was one "complicated" yacht that was ultimately scrapped days after being launched recently. Florida and the Caribbean are suddenly full of scrap boats because of a moment in time, nothing to do with age. Age is a just predictor of depreciation, a survey is a structural and systems analysis of a particular yacht, and the market is the place where values are determined by actual trades.

Tempest: if you want your own thread for craigslist finds, that's cool, but at least ask specific questions about the boats that pique your interest. Folks here have collectively done most "refits" possible, and have collectively sailed on a whole bunch of boats and know their particularities, including design quirks. I like the value range you're hunting in, it's the hardest, but also the most likely for you to wind up with a lot of bang for the buck.

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

At a certain age  complicated yachts become worthless....refit costs are simply too high .

Like all sweeping statements, that has a kernel of truth but is essentially meaningless.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I thought you were looking for a sailboat.

You'd certainly be the hero of every small boy.

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Have you seen this series, Tempest? Not that you're looking to do a total rebuild like this, but it covers a lot of items that come up with old GRP boats that might be useful. The banjo tune is a nice contrast to the cubic dollars being spent.

I'll bet Fred Cook didn't end up too upside down on this project actually, if he were to sell Sequoia. Am I way off to assume around a 150k budget, not include sweat equity and the Transpac gear like life raft etc.? New rig, sails, engine, bottom, paint, interior items, wiring. . . .

 

 

 

 

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On 12/8/2017 at 9:53 PM, Ishmael said:

This is exactly where Ajax started, several years ago. He too was chastised for starting multiple threads. He turned into a valuable source of Captain Obvious avatars, and you can follow his lead.  

Sheesh, that's all I'm good for? At least I've consolidated most of my contributions into my T-33 rebuild thread. :)

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3 hours ago, lasal said:

Have you seen this series, Tempest? Not that you're looking to do a total rebuild like this, but it covers a lot of items that come up with old GRP boats that might be useful. The banjo tune is a nice contrast to the cubic dollars being spent.

I'll bet Fred Cook didn't end up too upside down on this project actually, if he were to sell Sequoia. Am I way off to assume around a 150k budget, not include sweat equity and the Transpac gear like life raft etc.? New rig, sails, engine, bottom, paint, interior items, wiring. . . .

 

 

 

 

I talked with him at the Annapolis boat show - the cost was around $250K, and it still isn't done.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Sheesh, that's all I'm good for? At least I've consolidated most of my contributions into my T-33 rebuild thread. :)

We all love you Ajax. Well, except for Tom Scott.

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1 hour ago, slap said:

I talked with him at the Annapolis boat show - the cost was around $250K, and it still isn't done.

Yow. I guess hypothetically a new Cal 40 would cost that and a fair bit more without all the racing sails, so he did OK. The video series was near-pro quality too, they did a nice job. Thanks, Slap.

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6 minutes ago, lasal said:

Yow. I guess hypothetically a new Cal 40 would cost that and a fair bit more without all the racing sails, so he did OK. The video series was near-pro quality too, they did a nice job. Thanks, Slap.

Is this really a fair calculation? In a rebuild, you could theoretically never be done. It's open-ended. At what point do you draw the line and declare "done" so that you can compare the costs to a new boat?  Hell, I could put $250,000 into my T-33 and it doesn't even need it.

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Fair to whom? Not sure. But I think it makes sense to compare the price of a new yacht to a rebuilt one yeah. He has an as-new Cal 40 with an active fleet to do some OD racing with and it came in quite a bit less than hypothetically new. If it cost 600k to do that, well, let's use your example since you mention it, if it cost 250k to rehab your T33, I'd say you must really like the T33, maybe a little too much. :)

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

We all love you Ajax. Well, except for Tom Scott.

Who? The guy who took his ball home? 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Is this really a fair calculation? In a rebuild, you could theoretically never be done. It's open-ended. At what point do you draw the line and declare "done" so that you can compare the costs to a new boat?  Hell, I could put $250,000 into my T-33 and it doesn't even need it.

At $250 I'd say he's about 1/2 way to anything comparable new. A j/11 is about the same W/L and SA - what do they cost, race equipped?

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

At $250 I'd say he's about 1/2 way to anything comparable new. A j/11 is about the same W/L and SA - what do they cost, race equipped?

The Cal 40 rates slightly slower than my C&C 35-3, so he's not getting a speed demon for that quarter mil.

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Ish throws down the challenge! :)

I liked the project and think it was a worthy design and a great result. Even though it cost a lot more than I guessed it's still fairly practical, rather than just a personal, cost is no issue, project.

The marketing aspect for Scaefer Marine was well done and a nice contribution to the industry, and sure, a low near term marketing ROI but that wasn't the purpose.

Are you racing around the cans PHRF, or you talking offshore, Ish?

 

 

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1 hour ago, lasal said:

Ish throws down the challenge! :)

I liked the project and think it was a worthy design and a great result. Even though it cost a lot more than I guessed it's still fairly practical, rather than just a personal, cost is no issue, project.

The marketing aspect for Scaefer Marine was well done and a nice contribution to the industry, and sure, a low near term marketing ROI but that wasn't the purpose.

Are you racing around the cans PHRF, or you talking offshore, Ish?

 

 

I'm talking basic PHRF. Offshore I'll take the Cal any day, especially one that someone put that much time and money into.

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It doesn't make financial sense to restore virtually anything except maybe a famous painting.

Especially if you're just writing cheques - which is pretty well what he did with that Cal. It looked like it was "best of everything". I wonder if he included his travel costs - It looked like he spent more on plane tickets than I've spent in total on restoring my boats.

I think one could get most of what he got for a whole lot less money.

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I think you're right that you could do it cheaper and have as fast a boat, but Fred did poor in the sweat equity. He chipped the friggen previous bottom job off himself and did a bunch of woodworking, as well as the project management, and hunting down a number of one-off items like the stem fitting. It wasn't clear from the videos, but it sounded like he suffered a health issue from the bottom work.

So I agree, but I'd say it's the max practical rebuild on a worthy design that with the videos might inspire others to keep some good boats sailing.

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12 hours ago, lasal said:

Fair to whom? Not sure. But I think it makes sense to compare the price of a new yacht to a rebuilt one yeah. He has an as-new Cal 40 with an active fleet to do some OD racing with and it came in quite a bit less than hypothetically new. If it cost 600k to do that, well, let's use your example since you mention it, if it cost 250k to rehab your T33, I'd say you must really like the T33, maybe a little too much. :)

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part. Replace "fair" with "accurate" but your point is taken.

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

It doesn't make financial sense to restore virtually anything except maybe a famous painting.

Especially if you're just writing cheques - which is pretty well what he did with that Cal. It looked like it was "best of everything". I wonder if he included his travel costs - It looked like he spent more on plane tickets than I've spent in total on restoring my boats.

I think one could get most of what he got for a whole lot less money.

True, especially old boats. I just had the second insurance value survey done on my boat. The insurers request it done every 5-7 years for boats older than 20 years. When I first bought the boat nearly 20 years ago, it came with the latest insurance value survey, which is a 3rd valuation in over 20 years. 

The good news is, the boat is holding it's value. The bad news is, the value is pretty dismal. Comparables of similar sold(not much data there for old boats,...) but more likely, listed prices of boats on the market. There is never a sister ship in the data because the boat is pretty rare. 

My takeaway from watching these surveys and years of following similar boats for sale: There is a cap on even the best maintained and up graded boats, in a design. In a boat like mine (1961 Alden Challenger, Alden's first glass hull and deck), the cap is reached quickly compared to investment in restoration.

Big ticket items that are the bread and butter of skilled boat yards, re-powers, top end painting of hulls, decks and cabins, etc. represent the largest loss in investment, upon re-sale.

These really raise the level of quality of these boats for the owner(s) but surprisingly(due to the super soft market?) don't raise the value much in comparison to the investment. They mostly assure a sale as opposed to never selling and ending up as a donation. 

The best return on investment for the owner prior to selling, is maintenance when it comes to the market. Boats that are priced below there group are terribly maintained, even if they have a recent re-power. 

I've kept my investment pretty low on this boat having done all the work myself. I re-powered but with a used engine, I do all the painting. I'm much more likely to sell the boat with a solid working engine for what that cost, than ever realizing much return on a pro re-power of half the boats value. Keeping the boat well maintained is what sets it apart from the comparables I see in the survey. 

The new cockpit I built a couple years ago, raised the insurance value 15%. That was nice to see, but if someone asked me to build the same cockpit for another boat, I'd have to price it at 3 times the actual value I added to my boat. However, the new cockpit is more likely to sell the boat than some investments.   

 

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I watched all the Schaefer re-build vids - I think the only thing left original is the GRP hull & deck. I think most interior bulkheads were replaced, major hull stiffening added, new mast, rudder, deck hardware, wiring, etc.

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That first boat, the Hughes, is a good example of shoving so much accommodation into the boat that the cockpit becomes too small. Looks like this boat will sleep 5-6, but hold 3 in the cockpit.

I was on a 50' FD 12 in the 70's. Nice boat, but she slept 7 or so, and the cockpit was full, really full, with 4.

The late, great Jim McCurdy, who designed Carina and the Hinckley Sou'westers, once commented that a cruising boat should be able to accommodate the entire ships company both in the saloon and on the cockpit, as when it's nice out everyone will want to be in the cockpit, when foul everyone will be eating below. There should be space to have dinner in either place.

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https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/boa/d/355-hunter-legend/6384545914.html

Kinda hoping for a bigger boat but this one doesn't look bad.   Guessing the Hunter build quality is on par with all of the other major GRP boat builders.

On 12/20/2017 at 9:34 AM, lasal said:

FIFY

Hmm, there was one "complicated" yacht that was ultimately scrapped days after being launched recently. Florida and the Caribbean are suddenly full of scrap boats because of a moment in time, nothing to do with age. Age is a just predictor of depreciation, a survey is a structural and systems analysis of a particular yacht, and the market is the place where values are determined by actual trades.

Tempest: if you want your own thread for craigslist finds, that's cool, but at least ask specific questions about the boats that pique your interest. Folks here have collectively done most "refits" possible, and have collectively sailed on a whole bunch of boats and know their particularities, including design quirks. I like the value range you're hunting in, it's the hardest, but also the most likely for you to wind up with a lot of bang for the buck.

Yeah, sorry for not asking specific questions but, honestly, I'm not entirely sure what to ask.  Just looking for general input on the value you guys seen in these boats.

I agree with what you're saying about the price point but I'm also kinda thinking I should just pull the trigger on a basket case and do all of the work myself.  Realistically that may be the only way for me to end up in a bigger cruising boat before I'm 50.  Mechanical ability is a luxury I have, money is not.

On 12/20/2017 at 10:39 AM, lasal said:

Have you seen this series, Tempest? Not that you're looking to do a total rebuild like this, but it covers a lot of items that come up with old GRP boats that might be useful. The banjo tune is a nice contrast to the cubic dollars being spent.

I'll bet Fred Cook didn't end up too upside down on this project actually, if he were to sell Sequoia. Am I way off to assume around a 150k budget, not include sweat equity and the Transpac gear like life raft etc.? New rig, sails, engine, bottom, paint, interior items, wiring. . . .

 

 

 

 

No, I don't think so.  Thanks, I'll give it a look!

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/boa/d/355-hunter-legend/6384545914.html

Kinda hoping for a bigger boat but this one doesn't look bad.   Guessing the Hunter build quality is on par with all of the other major GRP boat builders.

 

No.

The Legend series is supposedly the best, but never confuse Hunter with quality.

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That boat is WAY overpriced. You can get more boat for less.

As Ish said, the Legends are about the best Hunters - certainly the best looking - but they are strictly coastal boats until you get into the big ones.

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When shopping for used boats its best to zero in on geographic areas that have very high dockage, cost of ownership.

once the valus of the boat becomes less that the cost of dockage , it becomes a money hole , broken up and dumped

my local shipyard scraps a dozen plastic 30,  40 footers every year. 

Buried in these " money hole " boats are older boats with very high pedigree. 

Keep a sharp lookout 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That boat is WAY overpriced. You can get more boat for less.

As Ish said, the Legends are about the best Hunters - certainly the best looking - but they are strictly coastal boats until you get into the big ones.

Really?  That's gotta be a regional thing because I don't see much built after 1990 popping up for much less than that.  Not in our neighbourhood anyway.

1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

When shopping for used boats its best to zero in on geographic areas that have very high dockage, cost of ownership.

once the valus of the boat becomes less that the cost of dockage , it becomes a money hole , broken up and dumped

my local shipyard scraps a dozen plastic 30,  40 footers every year. 

Buried in these " money hole " boats are older boats with very high pedigree. 

Keep a sharp lookout 

Where abouts are you?  I was looking at the Miami craigslist the other day and it's seems like there may be some deals to be had.  Lots of complete wrecks though.  The problem is I'm not sure which boats have the pedigree.  That's part of the reason I'm posting everything in here ;)

I'm thinking that once I have more money together (and a better idea of what I want) a guy might just have to go do a big road trip around the US looking for a deal.

 

I'm almost through that Cal 40 restoration video series.  Lots of good info!  That's probably exactly the scale of project I would try to avoid.  No wonder they've dumped $250k into it.... jesus.

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29 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Really?  That's gotta be a regional thing because I don't see much built after 1990 popping up for much less than that.  Not in our neighbourhood anyway.

Where abouts are you?  I was looking at the Miami craigslist the other day and it's seems like there may be some deals to be had.  Lots of complete wrecks though.  The problem is I'm not sure which boats have the pedigree.  That's part of the reason I'm posting everything in here ;)

I'm thinking that once I have more money together (and a better idea of what I want) a guy might just have to go do a big road trip around the US looking for a deal.

 

I'm almost through that Cal 40 restoration video series.  Lots of good info!  That's probably exactly the scale of project I would try to avoid.  No wonder they've dumped $250k into it.... jesus.

Europe 

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Typicaly less than one month...yearly rates re lower..or possibly unavailable. Fully booked.

when shopping for a boat find out the home port or marina..then request a quote for dockage in that town marina.

how much the owner is paying each year. 

use this knowledge when you play hardball with the price.

50 percentoff asking price works in expensive ports. 

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A website likeportbooker. Is handy 

nornmally they only quote transit berth price.,  one night, one week ....but this gives you insight 

http://www.portbooker.com/en

you can also contact a port direct for  yearly , monthly dockage quote once you have zeroed in on likely targets 

normally this must be in writing ...they dont like to quote on the phone 

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That boat is WAY overpriced. You can get more boat for less.

As Ish said, the Legends are about the best Hunters - certainly the best looking - but they are strictly coastal boats until you get into the big ones.

I wouldn't even call the big Hunters even coastal boats. Too spotty a QA, and too far into the Roomy+Comforts / Inexpensive corner of the features box. I'd agree the Legends are about the best.

I like to sail hard and I've had too much stuff on even big Hunters turn out to be seriously under spec (like, break off in your hand). Having posted some sea stories along these lines before, I'll just skip ahead to the part where I point out that I have not just owned a Hunter myself but that it was the only boat I have ever bought BRAND-NEW in my life.

post-30927-030624200%201284318859_thumb.jpg

Small but lots of fun once I had gotten it fixed up a bit. Mrs Steam and I had this boat for about ten years of our working lives and daysailed/weekended with it all over the East Coast plus some of the big inland lakes/rivers.

FB- Doug

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I think looking at European boats is kinda pointless. Buying local is by far the best. We spent a lot of money going other places before we figured that out.

Some local options:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/C%26C-Fiberglass-37-3123262/North-Vancouver/Canada#.WkEwonlG1EY

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/C%26C-38-MKIII-3055502/Sidney/Canada#.WkEw6nlG1EY A friend owns one, took it transatlantic and around the Med after a bit of beefing up of the very flat floors forward of the keel.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/C%26C-40-MK2-2926295/Vancouver/Canada#.WkExVXlG1EY

It's purely coincidental that these three happen to be C&C's. Really.

 

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

FWIW, a surveyor told me to avoid looking in areas with high UV.

Like outside? Maybe just look at night.

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On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, Ishmael said:

No.

The Legend series is supposedly the best, but never confuse Hunter with quality.

https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/boa/d/355-hunter-legend/6384545914.html

 

Note the that the water heater is vented to the inside of the boat!

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On 12/20/2017 at 1:06 PM, SloopJonB said:

You'd certainly be the hero of every Cabin boy.

Fify. I knew what you meant...

 

On 12/25/2017 at 12:43 PM, slug zitski said:

Years ago I sailed a CC 40.  It was a good boat .

use an accredited marine surveyor when surveying any boat 

Fixed that one too. 

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On 12/25/2017 at 3:18 AM, slug zitski said:

Dockage for a 45 footer , one week , transit rate 

 

 

 

IMG_7518.PNG

They just quoted you a ridiculous price because you have a 3.5meter deep rudder and the mooring has only 3meters. It was easier to quote you a price you'll say no to than ask you why you have the wrong rudder on your boat. It's the Mallorcan way, very pleasant.

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23 hours ago, Bull City said:

FWIW, a surveyor told me to avoid looking in areas with high UV.

 

20 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Like outside? Maybe just look at night.

You could try those blue-blocker sun glasses too. Worth a shot.

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24 minutes ago, lasal said:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Islander-Freeport-3115783/Everett/WA/United-States#.WkQG90tG0o8

What do you think of this for cruising BC, Tempest?

What does it cost to import US boats to Canada?

No duty because it was made in North America. 7% provincial tax, 5% GST.

On top of the currency conversion, which makes it $40,500 CAD + $2835 + $2025 = $45,360. Buying a boat in Canada you save the GST.

There are also sundry other costs like a customs broker to navigate delisting from the US database, etc.

 

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11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

No duty because it was made in North America. 7% provincial tax, 5% GST.

On top of the currency conversion, which makes it $40,500 CAD + $2835 + $2025 = $45,360. Buying a boat in Canada you save the GST.

There are also sundry other costs like a customs broker to navigate delisting from the US database, etc.

 

Good info. Is GST the Gold Standard Tax? You guys still paying for that experiment? :)

 

Here's another interesting budget-minded 40 footer for ya Tempest: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Cal-CAL-39-II-3127174/Seattle-(Our-Docks%2C-Shilshole-Marina)/WA/United-States#.WkQRYUtG0o8

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On 12/25/2017 at 4:04 AM, slug zitski said:

Typicaly less than one month...yearly rates re lower..or possibly unavailable. Fully booked.

when shopping for a boat find out the home port or marina..then request a quote for dockage in that town marina.

how much the owner is paying each year. 

use this knowledge when you play hardball with the price.

50 percentoff asking price works in expensive ports. 

 

On 12/25/2017 at 4:09 AM, slug zitski said:

A website likeportbooker. Is handy 

nornmally they only quote transit berth price.,  one night, one week ....but this gives you insight 

http://www.portbooker.com/en

you can also contact a port direct for  yearly , monthly dockage quote once you have zeroed in on likely targets 

normally this must be in writing ...they dont like to quote on the phone 

This is a great idea and I will definitely keep that in mind when I'm looking for a bigger boat.  Thanks for the tip.

On 12/25/2017 at 8:49 AM, Steam Flyer said:

I wouldn't even call the big Hunters even coastal boats. Too spotty a QA, and too far into the Roomy+Comforts / Inexpensive corner of the features box. I'd agree the Legends are about the best.

I like to sail hard and I've had too much stuff on even big Hunters turn out to be seriously under spec (like, break off in your hand). Having posted some sea stories along these lines before, I'll just skip ahead to the part where I point out that I have not just owned a Hunter myself but that it was the only boat I have ever bought BRAND-NEW in my life.

post-30927-030624200%201284318859_thumb.jpg

Small but lots of fun once I had gotten it fixed up a bit. Mrs Steam and I had this boat for about ten years of our working lives and daysailed/weekended with it all over the East Coast plus some of the big inland lakes/rivers.

FB- Doug

This seems to be the general consensus.  I am looking for something for blue water so I'll strike hunters from the list.

On 12/25/2017 at 9:14 AM, Ishmael said:

I think looking at European boats is kinda pointless. Buying local is by far the best. We spent a lot of money going other places before we figured that out.

Some local options:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/C%26C-Fiberglass-37-3123262/North-Vancouver/Canada#.WkEwonlG1EY

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/C%26C-38-MKIII-3055502/Sidney/Canada#.WkEw6nlG1EY A friend owns one, took it transatlantic and around the Med after a bit of beefing up of the very flat floors forward of the keel.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/C%26C-40-MK2-2926295/Vancouver/Canada#.WkExVXlG1EY

It's purely coincidental that these three happen to be C&C's. Really.

 

Shockingly, some of those actually look pretty good considering their age and that they're IOR racer cruisers.  I get the feeling that CC 40MK2 is the model that had the 2 cabins which is what I'm looking for.  Might actually be a good, roomy boat.  I'd really like to see what kind of nightmare the engine "room" is....

On 12/26/2017 at 1:03 PM, Bull City said:

FWIW, a surveyor told me to avoid looking in areas with high UV.

This is an interesting point.  I wonder how much of a difference that actually makes.  There's gotta be a percentage or decay rate out there in the ether somewhere.

On 12/27/2017 at 12:54 PM, lasal said:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Islander-Freeport-3115783/Everett/WA/United-States#.WkQG90tG0o8

What do you think of this for cruising BC, Tempest?

What does it cost to import US boats to Canada?

Importation costs may be a moot point as I might look into US registration or registering in another country if I end up cruising full time.  I'm kinda playing it by ear.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:40 PM, lasal said:

Good info. Is GST the Gold Standard Tax? You guys still paying for that experiment? :)

 

Here's another interesting budget-minded 40 footer for ya Tempest: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/Cal-CAL-39-II-3127174/Seattle-(Our-Docks%2C-Shilshole-Marina)/WA/United-States#.WkQRYUtG0o8

GST stands for Goods and Services Tax.  It's a national tax and is applied to almost every transaction across the country.  PST is Provincial Sales Tax.  The PST rate changes from province to province and is applied to some things but not others (bicycles, health and wellness type stuff and services usually aren't charged PST).

On 12/27/2017 at 1:48 PM, lasal said:

Taking your turn on a Catalina 38 could be another good choice. That's the West Coast's version of the Bristol 40. Beautiful, lot's of 'em, and they trade quickly if you price it right.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Catalina-38-3121592/Tacoma/WA/United-States#.WkQTfktG0o8

Those are definitely "budget" boats and it's pretty shocking how much better the interiors are on boats that are $20k more.  I'm guessing it's well worth the extra investment to get something a 'little' higher end as it's probably not worth the time, money & hassle to update a boat interior myself.  $60k-$80k sorta seems to be the sweet spot but saving the cash seems to be taking longer than I'd like.  It would be nice if I could save some more over the next year or two and then catch a good deal in the next recession (there's gotta be another one coming down the pipe in the near future).

As for the Catalina, how is the quality on the bigger ones?  I know they are typically regarded as being budget boats on the smaller end of the scale.  I'd really like to get something with 2 cabins so the ones you've posted aren't really what I'm looking for.

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Please keep in mind that the Catalina 38 (which IMO is a pretty good looking boat) is actually the Yankee 38, not really related to other Catalina designs. Nice tumblehome if you like that sort of thing.

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Tempest, I don't know if the cost to bring a boat from the US or Canadian E. Coast is prohibitive but I was looking for a 40-ish footer two years ago and every one that caught my eye was back there. There must be five times as many boats there, the prices in your size range are about US $20K less and the condition, due to the fact they don't sail them year round, seemed markedly superior. I was very partial to the C & C 43 of which there were at least four for sale in the $58-85K range, asking. Might be worth checking out. At the end of the day I went for a W. Coast boat just because my bank wouldn't lend the cost to transport but you may have other resources. Good luck. 

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7 hours ago, kinardly said:

Tempest, I don't know if the cost to bring a boat from the US or Canadian E. Coast is prohibitive but I was looking for a 40-ish footer two years ago and every one that caught my eye was back there. There must be five times as many boats there, the prices in your size range are about US $20K less and the condition, due to the fact they don't sail them year round, seemed markedly superior. I was very partial to the C & C 43 of which there were at least four for sale in the $58-85K range, asking. Might be worth checking out. At the end of the day I went for a W. Coast boat just because my bank wouldn't lend the cost to transport but you may have other resources. Good luck. 

I don't think location matters quite so much as where ever I get the boat I will probably just end up cruising from there.  I'm guessing the storage price won't be so much of a bargaining chip as it's got to be much cheaper to store a boat out east.

That said, I'm actually kinda shocked at how many C&C boats there are on the market.  Seems to be more of them than any of the other, older manufacturers.  If they are good quality boats they may be a good one for me to start seriously looking into.

Are you in Canada?  How hard was it to get a loan for a boat?

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9 minutes ago, Tempest said:

I don't think location matters quite so much as where ever I get the boat I will probably just end up cruising from there.  I'm guessing the storage price won't be so much of a bargaining chip as it's got to be much cheaper to store a boat out east.

That said, I'm actually kinda shocked at how many C&C boats there are on the market.  Seems to be more of them than any of the other, older manufacturers.  If they are good quality boats they may be a good one for me to start seriously looking into.

Are you in Canada?  How hard was it to get a loan for a boat?

Oh, quelle surprise! C&C were the largest sailboat builder in North America for one brief moment. Quality boats, really weird management sometimes. Many classics, some turkeys. It's easy to get a loan for a C&C in good shape, same as any other brand, but there are a lot of 70's and 80's C&C's in Canada for obvious reasons. Canadian surveyors know the boats and know the problems. Same to a certain extent for other Canadian brands. All bets off for Grampian.

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8 hours ago, kinardly said:

Tempest, I don't know if the cost to bring a boat from the US or Canadian E. Coast is prohibitive but I was looking for a 40-ish footer two years ago and every one that caught my eye was back there. There must be five times as many boats there, the prices in your size range are about US $20K less and the condition, due to the fact they don't sail them year round, seemed markedly superior. I was very partial to the C & C 43 of which there were at least four for sale in the $58-85K range, asking. Might be worth checking out. At the end of the day I went for a W. Coast boat just because my bank wouldn't lend the cost to transport but you may have other resources. Good luck. 

The price difference for a C&C on the west coast vs. a semi-mint freshwater Great Lakes C&C will likely be reflected in the transport costs as well as the likely hood that freshwater and a 6 months a year dry out regimen has aged the boat well.  Whether it's 24or 43ft. long, or 20-40 years old, it still costs to get it out there from its origin. At anything under 60K, the transport cost means you gotta really love the boat vs. what else you might find closer to home.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Oh, quelle surprise! C&C were the largest sailboat builder in North America for one brief moment. Quality boats, really weird management sometimes. Many classics, some turkeys. It's easy to get a loan for a C&C in good shape, same as any other brand, but there are a lot of 70's and 80's C&C's in Canada for obvious reasons. Canadian surveyors know the boats and know the problems. Same to a certain extent for other Canadian brands. All bets off for Grampian.

Ha, well I was surprised.  No shock in regards to weird management considering the number of times the company changed hands.  Good to know loans can be had for them as a recognized manufacturer. 

1 hour ago, fufkin said:

The price difference for a C&C on the west coast vs. a semi-mint freshwater Great Lakes C&C will likely be reflected in the transport costs as well as the likely hood that freshwater and a 6 months a year dry out regimen has aged the boat well.  Whether it's 24or 43ft. long, or 20-40 years old, it still costs to get it out there from its origin. At anything under 60K, the transport cost means you gotta really love the boat vs. what else you might find closer to home.

I think you missed what I was saying.  What I meant was that if I buy a 40ish foot boat, it becomes my home so the location is effectively a moot point, provided it isn't land locked.  My understanding is that the great lakes offer access to the ocean via locks and the St. Lawrence Seaway but I have been wrong before.

I'm going to look this up now but I was under the impression that fresh water was better for boats.... the way you worded that it sounds like you're saying it may be hard on them.

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On 12/30/2017 at 4:36 PM, Tempest said:

I'm guessing it's well worth the extra investment to get something a 'little' higher end as it's probably not worth the time, money & hassle to update a boat interior myself.

I thought you had "mechanical ability" more so than money? Anyway, I see that you are going on a walkabout, not buying a cruising boat to keep locally. Have you built a spreadsheet with all the items you'll want? That could be a way to compare purchase price to rehab costs to design preferences to build quality, to budget, etc. That's more productive than scrolling through boat ads blindly. Cheers.

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Hi Tempest

That would be a great trip if you bought back east in the spring and enjoyed a Great Lakes trip. I always wanted to do that from Thunder Bay south. Drop your mast and take the boat for the winter through the inland route.

Florida and area would have the most choice if you are considering a budget cruiser-liveaboard like the Hunter Legend 37.5 or a 40 and bought in the fall.

The CnC boats are classics, though.

Cheers and HNY

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Tempest, I'm in San Diego, about as far for overland delivery purposes from the NE US as you can get. Fufkin's observations are spot on but not, as you note, relevant to your plans. I think he was saying the prevalence of fresh water use and annual dry storage time means less hard use vice continuous immersion in salt water. Good luck to you. 

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Thanks Kinardly that's pretty much what I was trying to say...

Tempest,

I'm sure this has been mentioned upthread but I'll mention this oft-repeated mantra among enthusiasts who analyze the value of an older cruiser.

You have two choices. Get a deal up front and do a bunch of the work yourself. Or secondly, look for a well maintained, recently re-fit, possibly re-engined boat with a super conscientious owner. If you can verify both the quality of the owner and the quality of the refit, you're probably better off spending 10 cents on the dollar(for refit costs) for an already refit boat than spending your hard earned cash retail on the refit costs. (Some may disagree though)

Maintenance and over all use matters as much or more than build quality or salt/freshwater when determining how a boat has aged, and there are a lot of non-cosmetic things to look for. 

As for saltwater, it's not just what's underwater, but running and standing rigging will age faster as well. A freshwater boat that's 40 years old that's used half of the year, provided the mast is removed during storage, has a good chance of having the original running/standing rigging in good shape.

Underneath the freshwater, in a boat over 30 yrs old you should start to look for replaced thru-hulls or originals in good shape(this could be tough to tell %100 until you actually replace them) and the condition of the sail-drive if there is one, as both areas are more vulnerable to galvanic corrosion long term. If properly maintained and depending on a lot of factors, the sail drive could outlast the thru-hulls. If the boats on the hard, look for clues as to how caked the zincs are, and for any pitting underneath the protective epoxy on the sail drive. If the epoxy is dry and crumbling, there is likely galvanic current action that may lead to mild pitting of the aluminum underneath but if caught early and maintained, can still last a long time. 

Another thing to look for is how old the rubber membrane/gasket is between the sail drive and the hull. Engine manufacturers (Volvo) recommend every 12 yrs(?) or so, a lot of owners ignore this so lots of 40 year old boats still floating with the original gasket. Eventually, there will be mild water ingress and if so, the replacement might involve additional glass work, which will be a professional job around 2K more or less.

As a big generalization, glass boats from the 70's to around the early/mid 80's have a chance of being slightly overbuilt compared to a lot of late model glass boats. 

All in all, the ageing process of fibreglass cruising boats is a story that's still being told...

P.S. If you get to the point where your ready to pull the trigger, do your own research on a surveyor and don't take a surveyor recommended by the seller or broker.

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5 hours ago, lasal said:

I thought you had "mechanical ability" more so than money? Anyway, I see that you are going on a walkabout, not buying a cruising boat to keep locally. Have you built a spreadsheet with all the items you'll want? That could be a way to compare purchase price to rehab costs to design preferences to build quality, to budget, etc. That's more productive than scrolling through boat ads blindly. Cheers.

I do but I've come to realize that there's a balancing point.  I'm considering everything but a guy has to be smart and figure out where his time is best invested.  Many jobs I can do, some jobs it's better to have already done and a few jobs should probably be left to the professionals.  I can tell you that an entire internal, fine woodworking job with new cupboards, shelves, counters, drawers etc is not my forte, will probably end up taking me years to do and may end up looking like shit.  This, of course depends on the boat so I'm trying to consider everything.  Maybe an interior job wouldn't be as bad as I'm imagining?  Any of the technical/engine/rigging/hardware jobs I have no problem tackling myself.

I've built a spreadsheet with all of the cruising boats that have been mentioned as good ones to look for and I'm adding to it all the time.  I'm not entirely sure what features I need/want which is why I'm constantly reading and posting.  Getting feedback from you guys, etc.  I had the Cal 40 on there until recently and I decided it's not the boat for me partially because of the hull shape/interior design and mostly because of the fiberglass work required to shore up the keel and main bulkhead.  I have the Passport 40 on my list and, just last night, learned that it's almost the same boat as the Westsail/Fairweather Mariner 39 all of which are Bob Perry designs.

You're right.... I am kind of scrolling blindly.... but I'm also learning ;)  My requirements at this point are something between 37ish feet and 45ish feet, sloop or cutter rig (something that's sailable single handed or with a two man crew) and something with at least 2 cabins which is spacious and well lit (just comfortable to live on), so preferably not an IOR boat.  Oh, and well built.  I don't want to risk my life sailing on a shit box.

5 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

Hi Tempest

That would be a great trip if you bought back east in the spring and enjoyed a Great Lakes trip. I always wanted to do that from Thunder Bay south. Drop your mast and take the boat for the winter through the inland route.

Florida and area would have the most choice if you are considering a budget cruiser-liveaboard like the Hunter Legend 37.5 or a 40 and bought in the fall.

The CnC boats are classics, though.

Cheers and HNY

Yeah, I thought it would be pretty good.  No idea where the mast would have to be taken down but it would be worth looking into.

Thanks!  Same to you.  I may be down your way some time this month so I'll give you a dingle if I end up in the neighbourhood.

5 hours ago, kinardly said:

Tempest, I'm in San Diego, about as far for overland delivery purposes from the NE US as you can get. Fufkin's observations are spot on but not, as you note, relevant to your plans. I think he was saying the prevalence of fresh water use and annual dry storage time means less hard use vice continuous immersion in salt water. Good luck to you. 

I've been looking in that area.  That's a pretty short cruise to get back to the PNW.  Yeah, that's what I was thinking and it makes sense.

2 hours ago, fufkin said:

Thanks Kinardly that's pretty much what I was trying to say...

Tempest,

I'm sure this has been mentioned upthread but I'll mention this oft-repeated mantra among enthusiasts who analyze the value of an older cruiser.

You have two choices. Get a deal up front and do a bunch of the work yourself. Or secondly, look for a well maintained, recently re-fit, possibly re-engined boat with a super conscientious owner. If you can verify both the quality of the owner and the quality of the refit, you're probably better off spending 10 cents on the dollar(for refit costs) for an already refit boat than spending your hard earned cash retail on the refit costs. (Some may disagree though)

Maintenance and over all use matters as much or more than build quality or salt/freshwater when determining how a boat has aged, and there are a lot of non-cosmetic things to look for. 

As for saltwater, it's not just what's underwater, but running and standing rigging will age faster as well. A freshwater boat that's 40 years old that's used half of the year, provided the mast is removed during storage, has a good chance of having the original running/standing rigging in good shape.

Underneath the freshwater, in a boat over 30 yrs old you should start to look for replaced thru-hulls or originals in good shape(this could be tough to tell %100 until you actually replace them) and the condition of the sail-drive if there is one, as both areas are more vulnerable to galvanic corrosion long term. If properly maintained and depending on a lot of factors, the sail drive could outlast the thru-hulls. If the boats on the hard, look for clues as to how caked the zincs are, and for any pitting underneath the protective epoxy on the sail drive. If the epoxy is dry and crumbling, there is likely galvanic current action that may lead to mild pitting of the aluminum underneath but if caught early and maintained, can still last a long time. 

Another thing to look for is how old the rubber membrane/gasket is between the sail drive and the hull. Engine manufacturers (Volvo) recommend every 12 yrs(?) or so, a lot of owners ignore this so lots of 40 year old boats still floating with the original gasket. Eventually, there will be mild water ingress and if so, the replacement might involve additional glass work, which will be a professional job around 2K more or less.

As a big generalization, glass boats from the 70's to around the early/mid 80's have a chance of being slightly overbuilt compared to a lot of late model glass boats. 

All in all, the ageing process of fibreglass cruising boats is a story that's still being told...

P.S. If you get to the point where your ready to pull the trigger, do your own research on a surveyor and don't take a surveyor recommended by the seller or broker.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought you were saying which all sounds spot on.  I grew up on the great lakes so I'm somewhat familiar with boat conditions having been a bit of a dock rat when I was a kid.  The gasket tip is noted, thanks!

That's a good call.  It's much like buying a house and not letting the real estate agent recommend a home inspector.

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Not sure if i posted this here before, but, based on your last post, you may want to consider the 1982-1985 Morgan Nelson Marek 454.   The market is kinda varied however, in that there are some REAL projects you should avoid and there are some gems out there.  Performance wise the boat is fast IOR design (not compared to the sleds today).  The interior is VERY spacious, lots of beautiful teak.  Two separate cabins, two heads, full galley.    My wife and I sail her just the two of us, but I have single handed her on many occasions.

I can send more details if you are interested.  If you check out my youtube channel you can see a walkthrough of the boat as well as some sailing videos.

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4 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Not sure if i posted this here before, but, based on your last post, you may want to consider the 1982-1985 Morgan Nelson Marek 454.   The market is kinda varied however, in that there are some REAL projects you should avoid and there are some gems out there.  Performance wise the boat is fast IOR design (not compared to the sleds today).  The interior is VERY spacious, lots of beautiful teak.  Two separate cabins, two heads, full galley.    My wife and I sail her just the two of us, but I have single handed her on many occasions.

I can send more details if you are interested.  If you check out my youtube channel you can see a walkthrough of the boat as well as some sailing videos.

Nope, you have not posted that before, at least not that I've seen anyway.  I am going to look it up now.

Yes, definitely interested, please send info :)

Here's what I have so far for boats.  I haven't fully gone through every boat design yet so there are probably a few missing and a few that can be axed.5a4e078562627_CruisingBoats.thumb.jpg.c13d65cabaf0cefb16336861f2481202.jpg

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8 hours ago, Tempest said:

Nope, you have not posted that before, at least not that I've seen anyway.  I am going to look it up now.

Yes, definitely interested, please send info :)
 

 

PM me your email address.

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Tempest,

If you're serious about singlehanding, one of your big requirements is how easily you can reach your primaries and main sheet/traveller when your at the wheel. Some of these designs are better than others in this regard.

 

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Tempest,  If you are looking for low overall cost consider Hinckley, they are well made and usually owned by people who know it's best to always maintain .  I have worked on many and  I have never seen them not use the best building approach including parts replacement.  Remember you buy a boat by the pound, and what you sell it for is very unglamorous but is the real part of your cost.  I have seen undervalued boats that were were perfectly fine, but west coast sailors don't seem to click in with the old money folks that Hank Hinkley took care of.  He had a different approach, and never wanted to lose a customer and their offspring.  Good luck to you.

.

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9 hours ago, fufkin said:

Tempest,

If you're serious about singlehanding, one of your big requirements is how easily you can reach your primaries and main sheet/traveller when your at the wheel. Some of these designs are better than others in this regard.

 

Makes sense.  I'm guessing most single handers are going to use some sort of auto tiller if they can't easily reach everything.

8 hours ago, guerdon said:

Tempest,  If you are looking for low overall cost consider Hinckley, they are well made and usually owned by people who know it's best to always maintain .  I have worked on many and  I have never seen them not use the best building approach including parts replacement.  Remember you buy a boat by the pound, and what you sell it for is very unglamorous but is the real part of your cost.  I have seen undervalued boats that were were perfectly fine, but west coast sailors don't seem to click in with the old money folks that Hank Hinkley took care of.  He had a different approach, and never wanted to lose a customer and their offspring.  Good luck to you.

.

Interesting.  Never heard of Hinckley before.  A quick search makes it appear as though very few of those boats are in my price range and most of the ones that I would be able to afford are '60s 38 footers with only one cabin.  I'll keep my eye out for bigger and newer ones though.

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