Bristol-Cruiser

What boat to buy?

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We have brought our Bristol 45.5 to the Caribbean where we will keep it for the foreseeable future, which begs the question about what sort of boat we need to have for summers on Lake Ontario. The parameters for the new boat (my wife will kill me at the thought of having two boats 2000 miles apart) include:

  • must sail well in typical light Lake Ontario winds
  • can be sailed comfortably by two people and even singlehanded at times but could take 4 to 6 people for a sail
  • drop dead eye candy boat (i know this is subjective)
  • not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often
  • mainly for daysails so having a cabin is not a big deal
  • thinking 20 to 30 feet
  • draft 5 feet or less
  • available on the Great Lakes or perhaps Chesapeake to Maine area

Any thoughts? I was thinking about something like a Sakonnet 23 or a Bluenose or Shields 30 (that does make any sense?) or ???

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Don't know that I have seen one of those hereabouts but it is very pretty. Not sure of the four guys on the rail, maybe pretty windy although not obvious from the sea state.

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Aphrodite 101 - skinny & gorgeous. Much like the BB. There are some out here but I don't know about the GL's. Here's one.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Aphrodite-101-3146912/RHYC%2C-Hamilton/Canada#.Wi28ZDdryUk

Tartan 10 - also skinny and a bit less gorgeous. I'd expect there to be lots of them on the lakes.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Tartan-10-2745840/Niagara-on-the-lake/Canada#.Wi281jdryUk

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2 hours ago, silversailor said:

+1.  MEETS ALL REQUIREMENTS.

Not quite.

not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often

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Check out the S2 7.9 - the high coamimgs add a good deal for family sailing comfort. 

There are several available in the Detroit area - there is some one-design for them in ON, Sarnia for sure. 

Ours must look OK since this is a cover photo from Lake Boating . . (taken and published unbeknownst to us) 

25182214_1987054831568798_87229110558701

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Some interesting suggestions. I did not know about the Seascape 24 (or its sisters). One thing I was considering is how a sport boat with suitable detuning might work for me. I talked to the Far East 28R guy at Annapolis and he thought one of those with smaller sails - e.g. no square top main, a smaller asymmetric might work. I just have no experience with boas of this type. The middle of the road boats like S2s and its many cousins don't tug at my heartstrings. Strangely enough I feel myself leaning more to one of these modern rocket ships or something very traditional and gorgeous - I assume one could detune something like an Atlantic One-Design or Shields and still be able to whip out the bigger sails when more crew is available - the price for one of these older boats is attractive.

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Martin 242 ticks most of the boxes.  Even a number of them in the Lake Ontario area - although mainly a West Coast thing.  Lightweight frac, very good in light air,  110% jib IIRC.  Faster than most 24 footers, barring something like a Melges.  Half decent weekending interior for what it is - much better than a J/24 or Melges.  My guess is a decent used one can likely be had for under $10k back East.  Probably a bit more for one in Van since they still have a strong OD fleet - often 20-30 boats out for Wed Night racing.

http://www.boats.com/reviews/a-wolf-in-wolfs-clothing/#.WjGHIdKnGUk

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Modern sport boats are designed for squaretop mains so chopping 1/2 of it off makes little sense! My Seascape 27 have a 28m2 main + 21m2 jib + 80m2 gen. You start reefing around 15kts depending on crew. I dont have the Seascape 24 areas with me, but they are not a lot smaller giving it an SA/D higher than the 27 and the Melges 24. The S24 is a very good in-shore boat and has reefs in the main for when it blows.

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On 12/10/2017 at 5:47 PM, Veeger said:

Then there's the Alerion 28 Express....

 

This is the correct answer, there are a number of them between MI and NY for between $60k-$100k

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?type=(Sail)&Ntk=boatsEN&searchtype=advancedsearch&hmid=0&sm=3&enid=0&cit=true&luom=126&currencyid=100&boatsAddedSelected=-1&ftid=0&man=alerion&slim=quick&is=false&rid=128&No=10

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20 minutes ago, Mark Set (BIMBO Local 713) said:

This is the correct answer only if you consider +$60k for a used 20-30 footer to not be terribly expensive.  Myself, I would never pay that much for any boat.

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From my single experience, a Seascape 24 has good manners and feels stable. It's not a twitchy sport boat but tracks well on its chine if you don't mind the heel angle.

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FT 7.5?  More stable than a J/70, couple of used ones available under 30.  Have a friend who races his with 4, and daysails it with just his wife...they are both on the upper end of 60...

J-27?  Dark blue or dark green with grey non-skid and varnished toe rails and cabin top rails etc is actually a very pretty boat IMHO.  Easily meets the rest of your requirements and should be had for 15-20k

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Ensign. Plenty of room at 23’, 3,000lbs w/ 8’ cockpit, full keel cutaway forefoot 3’ draft and fractional rig. Small  cuddly cabin. Outboard on a transom bracket. Keep a cockpit cover on it and tell it you’ll be back and it will be there. Sails really well with a #2 or blade for cruising without hiking and ready to race in the beercan series with a # 1.

$1,000 -new $40,000. My 2008 is for sale and is the type of boat you seem to describe. Check them out and you might like the design. Mine’s on NJ craigslist as an example of what you could get in the boat-not a solicitation. Closer and cheaper is a good starting point to find a solid boat...

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4 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Some interesting suggestions. I did not know about the Seascape 24 (or its sisters). One thing I was considering is how a sport boat with suitable detuning might work for me. I talked to the Far East 28R guy at Annapolis and he thought one of those with smaller sails - e.g. no square top main, a smaller asymmetric might work. I just have no experience with boas of this type. The middle of the road boats like S2s and its many cousins don't tug at my heartstrings. Strangely enough I feel myself leaning more to one of these modern rocket ships or something very traditional and gorgeous - I assume one could detune something like an Atlantic One-Design or Shields and still be able to whip out the bigger sails when more crew is available - the price for one of these older boats is attractive.

Based on this response, I've got a couple observations:

1) If you're talking about Shields or an Atlantic One-Design, you're definitely looking sub $20k or even sub $10k or even less so that eliminates a new boat like a Seascape or even a used J-Something.  (IF, I said, IF you can find a nice J-27 as mentioned above, you'd probably have something there...)

2) I'm a bit curious about what you consider to be 'de-tuning' an Atlantic or a Shields.  They are already essentially de-tuned by today's sports boats standards.  Their working jibs and main are pretty basic.  Either one could easily be reefed early if you were so inclined.   This concern seems to indicate to me that you have very little experience and significant reservations about your own comfort levels.  Probably a good thing and probably with these boats not a major issue to worry over.

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On 12/13/2017 at 8:07 PM, Veeger said:

Based on this response, I've got a couple observations:

1) If you're talking about Shields or an Atlantic One-Design, you're definitely looking sub $20k or even sub $10k or even less so that eliminates a new boat like a Seascape or even a used J-Something.  (IF, I said, IF you can find a nice J-27 as mentioned above, you'd probably have something there...)

2) I'm a bit curious about what you consider to be 'de-tuning' an Atlantic or a Shields.  They are already essentially de-tuned by today's sports boats standards.  Their working jibs and main are pretty basic.  Either one could easily be reefed early if you were so inclined.   This concern seems to indicate to me that you have very little experience and significant reservations about your own comfort levels.  Probably a good thing and probably with these boats not a major issue to worry over.

Sorry for coming and going to this thread, but we are living on the hook and only have internet access when we go ashore for a beer.

As to budget, we are a bit flexible and will spend what is needed  to get the boat that makes sense to us - it is a boat after all so the purchase makes no sense from the get-go. Having two, seasonal boats makes even less sense. As to experience, it depends on the definition. I have been sailing for close to 50 years (I can't be that old) on a variety of boats. A couple of years ago we completed a five-year circumnavigation on our Bristol, so we have lots of experience but little on the two types of boats being talked about here - sport boats and big, open day sailors. My only experience was racing on a friend's Etchells many years ago. I seem to remember there were lots of little strings to pull.

From an aesthetic perspective a Shields or Atlantic is hard to beat. There is a Shields for sail in Nova Scotia that is set up with a Dutchman system and furler that looks to be close to what I want. On the other hand, something like a j 27 or Seascape makes sense from a sailing perspective on light air winds on Lake Ontario, which is to say much of the summer. Thanks for the contributions here.

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Hey BC,

Remember the Shields was initially designed to race on Long Island Sound, which is also a known light air venue in the summer.  It has a SA/Disp ratio approaching 21, and it's PHRF rating on LIS is 168.  So so its J-24 fast, which isn't bad for such a beautiful boat.  I certainly wouldn't rule it out due to light air performance, esp from a daysailor perspective.  In fact the only negative is that depending on your mooring/dock situation, its too beautiful (and a PITA) to hang an outboard on.  Which means you really want to/need to sail it on and off the mooring/dock....

 

J-27 rates 129 ish, so it is faster, and hanging and outboard on it is both easier and less sacrilegious... so if you need/want power to get on and off the mooring/dock, that might be a reason to lean towards a J-27 or similar...

Crash

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On 12/10/2017 at 5:29 PM, silversailor said:

+1.  MEETS ALL REQUIREMENTS.

Alerion is where I'd go....

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On 12/10/2017 at 8:20 PM, SloopJonB said:

Not quite.

not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often

Definition of expensive is relative....

The man has a Bristol 45.5

 

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22 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

 My only experience was racing on a friend's Etchells many years ago. I seem to remember there were lots of little strings to pull.

 

Etchells is a simple and good light air boat that is simple to maintain. You only have to pull all the the little strings if you want to.

when I was a young kid I had one for one summer but really only used the main and jib sheets plus the vang sometimes.

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I’m still saying the Ensign is a great choice for all parameters listed. Large cockpit, likes to swing on a hook for weeks looking good and a boat that the wife will say “nice looking boat Honey, but your still sleeping in the doghouse.”

 

0D8C6F39-26A1-4736-AAAD-58902F4C9E43.jpeg

58E3E355-3600-4471-B60F-8115003617C0.jpeg

3AB5FEF7-030E-4F6F-B707-D53DD8FDE988.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, monsoon said:

yeechhh

 

S&S 30?  I kind of like the furler and assym, and looks sharp with flush foredeck, pretty house, and no lifelines; what's yecch about it??

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41 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

S&S 30?  I kind of like the furler and assym, and looks sharp with flush foredeck, pretty house, and no lifelines; what's yecch about it??

To me it is a particularly ungraceful design.  The sheer is not pretty nor are the bow or stern.  Usually I like flush decked boats, but on this one the cabin top and foredeck are all out of balance.

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7 minutes ago, monsoon said:

To me it is a particularly ungraceful design.  The sheer is not pretty nor are the bow or stern.  Usually I like flush decked boats, but on this one the cabin top and foredeck are all out of balance.

I disagree but will concede that the teak handholds on the cabintop aren't doing it any favors in the looks department. If you're going to convert a wooden design to modern materials, you might as well go all the way and mold in the handholds and the toe rail or put holey rail on it. No sense adding varnish to the seasonal maintenance list.  

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1 hour ago, billy backstay said:

 

S&S 30?  I kind of like the furler and assym, and looks sharp with flush foredeck, pretty house, and no lifelines; what's yecch about it??

Yah..very well thought out...headstay aft of the stem to accomodate a downwind sail, full length cockpit coaming to keep water out and give a back rest , breastline fairleeds, toe rail, non overlapping jib with a close sheet angle.

not sure how to anchor it . 

 

looks like a nice boat 

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5 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Yah..very well thought out...headstay aft of the stem to accomodate a downwind sail, full length cockpit coaming to keep water out and give a back rest , breastline fairleeds, toe rail, non overlapping jib with a close sheet angle.

not sure how to anchor it . 

 

looks like a nice boat 

 

Anchor with a bridle with chafe gear?  No chocks or bow cleat can be seen from that angle, if even there?  Is that a second furler in front of the jib?

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Looks like a halyard for a fractional spi ? The downwind sail shown is masthead ?

ive never seen the boat in person 

anchoring ...roller and gear must be well thought out...sparkman and stephens are world class and i suspect that boat is  expensive  

if you like funky fast boats by the worlds greatest designers check out Nigel Irens   

There is one in the shipyard now...even has a mini max prop

IMG_7646.JPG

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I’m still saying the Ensign is a great choice for all parameters listed. Large cockpit, likes to swing on a hook for weeks looking good and a boat that the wife will say “nice looking boat Honey, but your still sleeping in the doghouse.”

 

 

Carl Alberg designed the Ensign..  Brilliant designer.   But for a gorgeous day sailor with a cabin, his prettiest design was the Sea Sprite.  I watched a small fleet of them in Bristol RI two summers ago. Very nice.

Etchell - Designed as a race boat not a day sailor.  Lacks the "comfort" factor for picnics on the lake.  A handful for single handed. No room for his 4-6 guests!

Shields -  Agree is a good looker. Also designed to race but in a different era. Frustratingly heavy for light air. It will sit in its own wake with sails flogging. Short on guest space.

Ensign and Sea Sprite - Good lookers. Anything Carl A touched turned out right.  To my eye Ensign isnt as good looking as a Shields. Sea Sprite is very pretty. But again, both boats from the full keel era so they will feel slow in light air.  But very safe in a squall.

IOD - The prettiest of all the "previous era" boats.  Just gorgeous. Large sail area so can drift along in lighter breeze but like all the older designs, they get their power from sail area not because they are light weight.

Your fundamental choice  is whether you want: A modern design which can sail well in light air because it is light  OR a traditional design that can handle light air because it has large sail area. 

Like the OP ,  I have a soft spot for the truly traditional beautiful lines of the IOD and the Sea Sprite or some of the latest lightest modern boats. Its the stuff in the middle I dont much care for.

Reading the OP's wish list , I cant help thinking that his ideal is a modern lightweight construction (so he can single hand and sail with 5 guests in light air)  with traditional looking topsides.   That is why so many have suggested the Alerion....and it does seem to suit.

 

 

 

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But if you could find a used one of these......then I would be very jealous and might even be forced to come and visit as one of your sailing guests for a weekend on Lake Ontario

4142698_20130327093802121_1_XLARGE.jpg.38e2def72b26236819fae6549aae5e1d.jpg

4142698_20140905120308322_1_XLARGE.jpg.3c8188f422e8eb27e3fe87ed37098518.jpg

It is all classic lines above the waterline but the underside is modern fin keel and the construction is light.   Goes well in light air and is stiff in  a breeze.  Scores 10/10 in eye candy.   Great for the guests. Easy to single hand.

 

 

4142698_20140905120237444_1_XLARGE.jpg

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18 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

But if you could find a used one of these......then I would be very jealous and might even be forced to come and visit as one of your sailing guests for a weekend on Lake Ontario

4142698_20130327093802121_1_XLARGE.jpg.38e2def72b26236819fae6549aae5e1d.jpg

4142698_20140905120308322_1_XLARGE.jpg.3c8188f422e8eb27e3fe87ed37098518.jpg

It is all classic lines above the waterline but the underside is modern fin keel and the construction is light.   Goes well in light air and is stiff in  a breeze.  Scores 10/10 in eye candy.   Great for the guests. Easy to single hand.

 

 

4142698_20140905120237444_1_XLARGE.jpg

And it is a ....??

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I was reacquainted with Chris Hood at the Newport Boat Show some years back, and he had a boat like that 32, but I think it was smaller?  Had to be 8 or 10 years ago.  He makes very sexy boats, for sure!!  Alerions are very lovely as well, but pricey, IIRC?  EDIT, there was also a guy there selling Etchells converted to cruisy, day sailors, with lovely teak, big canvas seats, etc.  I think was doing one at a time conversions.

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That Hood is absolutely gorgeous but I suspect it will be a couple of years before we see used ones. The base price is US$113k which is a lot of money or not bad, depending on how you look at it. We are safely ensconced in the Caribbean and will think more about this when we are north. I will need to do a lot of homework (and driving) since I am thinking about boats that I have never actually seen in the flesh other than the Ensign and Alerion. When we saw the Alerion at Annapolis the Admiral did not like it but she was thinking in the context of the bigger boats we were considering at the time like our Bristol.

Someone mentioned that there are two groups of boats, the modern sport boat type and the traditional racer types with large sail areas. Our Bristol would fall into the latter category and it is what we are used to.

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20 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

That Hood is absolutely gorgeous but I suspect it will be a couple of years before we see used ones. The base price is US$113k which is a lot of money or not bad, depending on how you look at it. We are safely ensconced in the Caribbean and will think more about this when we are north. I will need to do a lot of homework (and driving) since I am thinking about boats that I have never actually seen in the flesh other than the Ensign and Alerion. When we saw the Alerion at Annapolis the Admiral did not like it but she was thinking in the context of the bigger boats we were considering at the time like our Bristol.

Someone mentioned that there are two groups of boats, the modern sport boat type and the traditional racer types with large sail areas. Our Bristol would fall into the latter category and it is what we are used to.

Hi BC,.  I was not seriously suggesting the Hood 32 because it doesn't pass your "not too expensive" hurdle......but we are all allowed to dream right?  A 2011 used Hood 32 is asking $86k , so let's assume it sells for around $80k . I'm not about to spend $80k on my day sailor but .....given the Gucci category they are in, 32 feet of hand finished craftsmanship , compared to the Hinkley daysailor, ($750,000) or the  Morris 36 ($300,000) or the Friendship (if you have to ask.....) , I have always thought the Hood 32 comes out at an astonishing price point and it's not surprising that they hold their value and that Chris Hood is not rich.  Incidentally he also builds the occasional new IOD.  But again, I'm not seriously suggesting a Hood 32 .......although, sigh, it is sheer eye candy.

My more serious suggestion is that you should look at that category of boat that combines traditional top sides with a modern underbody. 

Unlike your Bristol where the ocean going purpose suits its design, you are looking for something to day sail on Lake Ontario. It has to look good (traditional) but also be easy to sail short handed (modern light design), move well in light air lake conditions (light design)  and have space for guests on occasion ( not an uncomfortable converted race boat). I don't think its any surprise that some early posts before mine started to suggest an Alerion.   There are others in that category.

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20 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

.

Someone mentioned that there are two groups of boats, the modern sport boat type and the traditional racer types with large sail areas. Our Bristol would fall into the latter category and it is what we are used to.

And a third category of, traditional top sides with modern underbody.

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Check out the Edey and Duffy Stuart Knockabout 28’. Beautiful Spirit of Tradition Daysailer. 

There is one listed in NJ for about $25,000. It has some storm damage to the teak port coaming and transom. The others are in the $50-65,000 range. I looked at one last year, but kept my Ensign because it was more spacious and had the cabin to store the sails and gear. 

AA359BF7-8874-4D85-9D8C-071FACBA7F66.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Check out the Edey and Duffy Stuart Knockabout 28’. Beautiful Spirit of Tradition Daysailer. 

There is one listed in NJ for about $25,000. It has some storm damage to the teak port coaming and transom. The others are in the $50-65,000 range. I looked at one last year, but kept my Ensign because it was more spacious and had the cabin to store the sails and gear. 

AA359BF7-8874-4D85-9D8C-071FACBA7F66.jpeg

Very nice as well. I think I am leaning to the traditional look and focussing on sails on the days that suit the boat. We have a marina about a five minute walk from the house and that is where we could keep it.

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On 2017-12-10 at 6:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Aphrodite 101 - skinny & gorgeous. Much like the BB. There are some out here but I don't know about the GL's. Here's one.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Aphrodite-101-3146912/RHYC%2C-Hamilton/Canada#.Wi28ZDdryUk

That broker should be shot! The out-of-focus photos are simply terrible. Perhaps they were supplied by the owner; but in that case, any broker worth his commission would reject them and go out and take a few decent ones himself.

On 2017-12-13 at 4:38 PM, Crash said:

FT 7.5?  More stable than a J/70, couple of used ones available under 30.  Have a friend who races his with 4, and daysails it with just his wife...they are both on the upper end of 60.

I used to sail FT 7.5s quite a bit, and I don't believe that design would meet all of his criteria.

While it is decent in light winds, and can certainly be sailed double handed, it is a modern sport boat design and very, very few people would seriously consider it a "drop dead eye candy boat".

124-Flying_Tiger_7_5m_368.jpg?itok=pB_Hz 

More objectively, the draft is 6 feet: 1' more than the 5' maximum he has established.

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On December 10, 2017 at 5:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Aphrodite 101 - skinny & gorgeous. Much like the BB. There are some out here but I don't know about the GL's. Here's one.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Aphrodite-101-3146912/RHYC%2C-Hamilton/Canada#.Wi28ZDdryUk

Tartan 10 - also skinny and a bit less gorgeous. I'd expect there to be lots of them on the lakes.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Tartan-10-2745840/Niagara-on-the-lake/Canada#.Wi281jdryUk

There was an APHRODITE 101 in Wisconsin.  Owner passed away a couple of years ago. No idea what happened to the boat.

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Love the CW Hood 32 aesthetics. Similar vein is the e33; not cheap but very interesting combo of modern and classic, trending more modern than the 32. A few used for $130k and up, with a cabin. 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/E-Sailing-Yachts-e33-2421486/Thomaston/ME/United-States#.Wml-v2KIb7o

 

 

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The1080025_0_170820101344_4.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1282081458000

e33 just doesn't do it for me... Sheer is too flat, cabin looks awkward, the ends - particularly the stern - lack grace.  Its like they took a hodgepodge of features from different boats and stuck them together.  The sum of the whole in this case is maybe less then the sum of its parts.

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On 12/10/2017 at 2:29 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

We have brought our Bristol 45.5 to the Caribbean where we will keep it for the foreseeable future, which begs the question about what sort of boat we need to have for summers on Lake Ontario. The parameters for the new boat (my wife will kill me at the thought of having two boats 2000 miles apart) include:

  • must sail well in typical light Lake Ontario winds
  • can be sailed comfortably by two people and even singlehanded at times but could take 4 to 6 people for a sail
  • drop dead eye candy boat (i know this is subjective)
  • not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often
  • mainly for daysails so having a cabin is not a big deal
  • thinking 20 to 30 feet
  • draft 5 feet or less
  • available on the Great Lakes or perhaps Chesapeake to Maine area

Any thoughts? I was thinking about something like a Sakonnet 23 or a Bluenose or Shields 30 (that does make any sense?) or ???

 

those two will never go together..

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On 12/10/2017 at 12:49 PM, slug zitski said:

Dont know if they are popular in north america but the BB10 is a lovely boat for daysails and weekend cruising 

IMG_7268.JPG

There's one of these for sale here in San Diego for what looks to be a good price.  Don't worry - not real teak decks!  

 

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/d/danish-33-foot-day-sailer/6458269336.html

 

Beautiful boat.  No affiliation, just noticed the ad.  

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as long as we're being stoopid the Eagle 36 or Maxi Dolphin (Crosscurrent) 33 are nice boats too

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I like sailng a Solng better than an Etchells. In fact, I think a good Soling might be the sweetest helm, nicest sailing boat ever.

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On 12/10/2017 at 4:29 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

We have brought our Bristol 45.5 to the Caribbean where we will keep it for the foreseeable future, which begs the question about what sort of boat we need to have for summers on Lake Ontario. The parameters for the new boat (my wife will kill me at the thought of having two boats 2000 miles apart) include:

  • must sail well in typical light Lake Ontario winds
  • can be sailed comfortably by two people and even singlehanded at times but could take 4 to 6 people for a sail
  • drop dead eye candy boat (i know this is subjective)
  • not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often
  • mainly for daysails so having a cabin is not a big deal
  • thinking 20 to 30 feet
  • draft 5 feet or less
  • available on the Great Lakes or perhaps Chesapeake to Maine area

Any thoughts? I was thinking about something like a Sakonnet 23 or a Bluenose or Shields 30 (that does make any sense?) or ???

OK, thanks for all the suggestions and lets pretend that I totally ignore the thing in red above (my wife does not know this yet). It just seems that I am not going to get out of being alive alive and so any money left over is sort of wasted. Also, in blue I am thinking  around 28 to 33 feet and perhaps that a minimal cabin is better than just a fully open cockpit, although I could be convinced. I mentioned 5 foot draft because I live about a five minute walk from a (not very good) marina, but I could see the boat from my balcony. if I go deeper, say to 6' max I could keep the boat at our yacht club which is a 30 minute drive. Life is complicated.

Anyway, the short list, in no particular order, is Morris M29 (ignore the red above), CE Hood 32, e33, Alerion 28, and a long shot, Pogo 30 (have to sail that one across to the Caribbean next fall and then north in the spring. Thoughts about these boats - the Hood is the prettiest with the Morris close, the Pogo and e33 have the best performance with the Alerion being a good all-rounder but not a leader for anything. Anyone actually sailing any of these - what are your impressions.

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18 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

OK, thanks for all the suggestions and lets pretend that I totally ignore the thing in red above (my wife does not know this yet). It just seems that I am not going to get out of being alive alive and so any money left over is sort of wasted. Also, in blue I am thinking  around 28 to 33 feet and perhaps that a minimal cabin is better than just a fully open cockpit, although I could be convinced. I mentioned 5 foot draft because I live about a five minute walk from a (not very good) marina, but I could see the boat from my balcony. if I go deeper, say to 6' max I could keep the boat at our yacht club which is a 30 minute drive. Life is complicated.

Anyway, the short list, in no particular order, is Morris M29 (ignore the red above), CE Hood 32, e33, Alerion 28, and a long shot, Pogo 30 (have to sail that one across to the Caribbean next fall and then north in the spring. Thoughts about these boats - the Hood is the prettiest with the Morris close, the Pogo and e33 have the best performance with the Alerion being a good all-rounder but not a leader for anything. Anyone actually sailing any of these - what are your impressions.

Do you want to be a poser (M29) or a sailor (Pogo30)?

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On 12/10/2017 at 3:29 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

We have brought our Bristol 45.5 to the Caribbean where we will keep it for the foreseeable future, which begs the question about what sort of boat we need to have for summers on Lake Ontario. The parameters for the new boat (my wife will kill me at the thought of having two boats 2000 miles apart) include:

  • must sail well in typical light Lake Ontario winds
  • can be sailed comfortably by two people and even singlehanded at times but could take 4 to 6 people for a sail
  • drop dead eye candy boat (i know this is subjective)
  • not terribly expensive so I don't feel bad if the boat sits there not being used often
  • mainly for daysails so having a cabin is not a big deal
  • thinking 20 to 30 feet
  • draft 5 feet or less
  • available on the Great Lakes or perhaps Chesapeake to Maine area

Any thoughts? I was thinking about something like a Sakonnet 23 or a Bluenose or Shields 30 (that does make any sense?) or ???

Stuart knockabout

 

 

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4 hours ago, monsoon said:

Do you want to be a poser (M29) or a sailor (Pogo30)?

I would categorize it as different kinds of sailing. right now I think the Pogo would be great fun, but in another 10 years when I am 80 (!!!) something more sedate would make sense. I generally keep a boat for 10 or more years.

All of the boats on the short list, except the Pogo, are similar with a traditional look but modern sail performance. I just have to decide on which way to go and whether I really need a cabin or not. From everything I have read.heard th Pogo seems to be one of those remarkable boats where they got everything right.

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23 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Anyway, the short list, in no particular order, is Morris M29 (ignore the red above), CE Hood 32, e33, Alerion 28, and a long shot, Pogo 30 (have to sail that one across to the Caribbean next fall and then north in the spring. Thoughts about these boats - the Hood is the prettiest with the Morris close, the Pogo and e33 have the best performance with the Alerion being a good all-rounder but not a leader for anything. Anyone actually sailing any of these - what are your impressions.

Pogo 30 might be a bit sticky in light winds.  Plus might be hard to find in North America.

Hood 32 - beautiful, but no cabin.  If you take guests out for a few hours, having a head is nice...

Alerion 28  -  Plenty of used ones available, seems to hold their value well.

Also, if you are willing to forgo classic looks, I'd add in the J/100 - there were a few shoal draft ones.

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On 12/11/2017 at 12:02 AM, SloopJonB said:

Aphrodite 101 - skinny & gorgeous. Much like the BB. There are some out here but I don't know about the GL's. Here's one.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Aphrodite-101-3146912/RHYC%2C-Hamilton/Canada#.Wi28ZDdryUk

 

This Aphrodite would cost at least twice in Europe!

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On 1/1/2018 at 11:46 AM, Snaggletooth said:

that is oune prettey bpoate!          :)

I have a WASPman and Stevens 29 forsale 

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37 minutes ago, jesposito said:

I have a WASPman and Stevens 29 forsale 

Nice boate, butte thats notte as prettey as theknockabote.                                     :)

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International Dragon. Looks good. Highly optimized with a snuffer, roller furling and launching spinny pole so easy to single hand. Buy a new one you can even get the old fashioned seats put. Extra bonus - new ones don't sink in 30sec if swamped. 

image42.jpg

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Your right. It’s just an interchangeable  genoa he's bragging about.

I need to learn to read print better. It’s all between the lines here:rolleyes:

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I certainly have added the J 100 to the short list. It looks like an excellent boat overall and is attractive if not classic looking. A plus is that there quite a few available. Some of the others have only one example at a price point I would consider.  I am starting to think about dropping the Alerion and the Pogo from the short list. The Alerion is a fine boat I am sure but does not offer as good performance as any of the others. Probably the best part about getting the Pogo would be the trip from the Canaries to the Caribbean. Can't imagine taking it out for a quiet day sail singlehanded. I made a summary of the boats. Prices refer to the cheapest one I could find, not that I would necessarily go with the cheapest example. When you look at the SA/Diap and Disp/length of the  Pogo, along with its hull shape you can see why it is such a rocket ship. The Pogo PHRF is a conversion of its IRC rating.

 

  CW Hood 32 Morris M29 Alerion 28 Pogo 30 E33 J 100
LOA 32' 5" 29' 2" 28' 3" 30' 33' 7" 32' 10"
LWL 20' 5" 20" 10" 22'8" 30' 27'1" 29'
Beam 6' 11" 7' 4" 8' 2" 12' 1" 8' 9" 9' 4"
Draft 4' 4' 6" 4'6" swing keel 5' 9" 5' 9"
Displacement 2750 4375 5700 6173 5780 6500
Price (US$) 89,500 135,000 62,000 112,000 euros (139) 139,900 84,000
SA/Disp 23.3 23.1 21.0 27.2 26.1 26.6
Disp/Length 137.5 214.0 165.3 102.0 132.3 118.0
PHRF 150 156 168 ~45 102 96
Engine electric 14 14 12 14 10 or 14

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Sounds like the CW Hood 32 actually hits your target pretty well.

Electric motor! That is probably the thing that you will think make the boat the nicest to use for day sails. No screwing around with fuel getting old, oil in bilge, maintenance, noise, smell, vibration, stalling when shifting into reverse just when you really need it!

By far the best looking of this bunch. Certainly simple to sail, with all lines coming to a cockpit that is easy to move around. Easy to get in and out of the boat. No spinnaker pole or sprit, so you might actually be able to keep using the chute as you get older.

Lightest displacement, which means easiest to handle at dock and when sailing. As you get older, it won't start to seem unwieldy.

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On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, Crash said:

The1080025_0_170820101344_4.jpg&w=924&h=693&t=1282081458000

e33 just doesn't do it for me... Sheer is too flat, cabin looks awkward, the ends - particularly the stern - lack grace.  Its like they took a hodgepodge of features from different boats and stuck them together.  The sum of the whole in this case is maybe less then the sum of its parts.

 

Looks like a stretched out Ensign to me!:o

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Ok, so I talked to the wife and admiral and showed her the short list. Thought she might go for the J 100 or even the Morris depending on her mood and she said definitely, positively that she wants a boat that we go somewhere in, not just go for a sail on a nice day. She mentioned the North Channel and Newfoundland (we will be on Lake Ontario). Also could go to visit the grandkids in Hamilton which is about 70 miles from home. Would not be much slower than 401 and QEW (those are Toronto area highways with major traffic loads all the time).With my (and her) desire not to motor unless really necessary, I thought of something like a J 109 (although I have to figure out the J 108/109/110 business). The X-yachts XC-35 that we saw in Annapolis was very nice but they have only been out a few years and will be pricey. Sorry to all those who put such intelligent thought into the daysailer idea but we are moving up -although any of these 10,000 lb boats would be tiny in comparison to the Bristol that cruises at 40,000 pounds. Anyway we are looking for something in the 35' +/1 range with a PHRF around 100 or so (or less) with shoal draft. Windward ability would be nice but well down the list. Easy to sail with one or two people a priority. Perhaps the Pogo is back in the running. ;)

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The pogo will go well to windward, it is just that in very light air it will be a bit sticky. They actually transition from sticky to sailing well quite suddenly.

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On 2/15/2018 at 2:16 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Ok, so I talked to the wife and admiral and showed her the short list. Thought she might go for the J 100 or even the Morris depending on her mood and she said definitely, positively that she wants a boat that we go somewhere in, not just go for a sail on a nice day. She mentioned the North Channel and Newfoundland (we will be on Lake Ontario). Also could go to visit the grandkids in Hamilton which is about 70 miles from home. Would not be much slower than 401 and QEW (those are Toronto area highways with major traffic loads all the time).With my (and her) desire not to motor unless really necessary, I thought of something like a J 109 (although I have to figure out the J 108/109/110 business). The X-yachts XC-35 that we saw in Annapolis was very nice but they have only been out a few years and will be pricey. Sorry to all those who put such intelligent thought into the daysailer idea but we are moving up -although any of these 10,000 lb boats would be tiny in comparison to the Bristol that cruises at 40,000 pounds. Anyway we are looking for something in the 35' +/1 range with a PHRF around 100 or so (or less) with shoal draft. Windward ability would be nice but well down the list. Easy to sail with one or two people a priority. Perhaps the Pogo is back in the running. ;)

J/108 is a J/109 hull with a J/95 style keel/centerboard and dual rudders.  It has a shorter rig as well.  Also gives up the retractable sprit for a shorter fixed sprit.  For those reasons, not as fast as a J/109, (rates around 96-102) but the "most" shoal draft of the 3 with a board up draft of only 4 ft.  I think they only built a couple (maybe only 1?).  A shoal draft J/109 has the same rig as a deep draft J/109.  They seem to struggle (relative to a deep draft boat) around the race course, particularly going upwind.  Off the wind there is little difference.  The shoal draft 109 draws 5.75 ft and they rate around 75-78 where as the deep draft 109 rates 69ish (PHRF config) or 75ish OD config).  The J/110 actually was a follow on to the J-35c, and came before the J/109.  The 110 draws 6 ft, and rates around 93-99.  It also has the head forward, where as the 109 and 108 have the head aft, behind the Nav Station.    

My wife and I sailed our 109 doublehanded many times with no issues.  It's an easy boat to double hand in my opinion.  Though not specifically set up as a single hander, I single handed my a fair number of times to.  With a auto-pilot and remote and dodger, it was pretty nice.  One couple actual sailed around the world on their J/109.  We cruised ours (with 3 kids for up to a week as well.  It has decent, but not great storage and tankage.

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The benefit of a J/109 over the J/108 and J/110 is that there were more J/109s built (somewhere around 380) and are easier to find.  I have seen a couple of J/110s but never ran across a J/108.  I'm biased since I have the J/109 but is was a boat my wife liked so who was I to argue :rolleyes:.  There is an active one design class and lots of owner support on the class forum.  Overall it hits a sweet spot as a good racer-cruiser.  There are faster racers and more comfortable cruisers, but the configuration and layout on the J/109 seems to optimize the two well.  It is easy to short hand for a day sail, or to go cruising with the family.  It is fun to race.  The light air enhancements that boats on the Great Lakes use are a 120 square meter spinnaker (stock is 108) and using an overlapping head sail (145% typically).  Unless you are sailing with crew, the standard 105% jib is much easier to deal with.  With the roller furling you can be sailing off the dock or mooring in minutes without much hassle.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I kind of like the way the J/109 looks too!

vento-solare-3di-sails.jpg

VentoSolare.jpg

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J-100 with electric halyard winch, shoal draft would be a winner!!   Never been in salt water, always drysailed.   I know of a great one for sale, cheapest but nicest on the market.  

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On 12/10/2017 at 6:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Aphrodite 101 - skinny & gorgeous. Much like the BB. There are some out here but I don't know about the GL's. Here's one.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Aphrodite-101-3146912/RHYC%2C-Hamilton/Canada#.Wi28ZDdryUk

Tartan 10 - also skinny and a bit less gorgeous. I'd expect there to be lots of them on the lakes.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1979/Tartan-10-2745840/Niagara-on-the-lake/Canada#.Wi281jdryUk

Neither are good light air boats

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