Couta

Olympic Classes for Paris 2024

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https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/11/Olympics-World-Sailings-radical-plan-to-overhaul-2024-eventsclasses

Not sure why they'd want to make this call so quickly - unless it was to cut short discussion/debate.

Initial thoughts - looks like more lympix & taxpayer money will go to even fewer candidates. Mixed gender classes will be virtually no-existent at state & national levels. Interesting to see how this works with Youth classes....but unlikely to boost participation.

Offshore overnighter keelboat class?? Yeah right!

The only thing that makes sense is the foiling kites. Lympix is entertainment and fast ,colourful, foiling kites with graphic overlays, over-hyped commentary and 10 minute races will have eyeball appeal to the masses - if only as a novelty. It's time for sailing to step away from the lympix 5 ring circus but countries like Australia won't give up that winning feeling they get when they beat Ghana in the medal tally.

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I’m of the exact opposite opinion.

The mixed gender will boost participation at the lowest levels.  Off-shore keelboat will be fun to watch.  

This setup matches what regular folks actually do - with the exception of kiting.  Nobody kites and it’s stupid to have them in the Olympics.  The kids are not gonna time in to watch that.  I mean cmon, people watch the running, throwing, curling, skiing, all the classic stuff.  Nobody wants skating stunts at the Olympics and nobody wants kiting.

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I think it's cool that offshore sailing is on the agenda. Olympic Sailing needs a keel boat to represent the sport accurately

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I thouht they werre lookeng into Mac26 forre the offshorre stuffe.  Prolley juste wantned a Franch boatte forre that.                                   :)

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2 hours ago, jonas a said:

I think it's cool that offshore sailing is on the agenda. Olympic Sailing needs a keel boat to represent the sport accurately

Do you sail a keelboat with a stupid foil sticking out the side, and yet the boat doesn’t foil, because that’s what this is going to be, that ridiculous looking non-foiling beneteau thing.

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1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

Do you sail a keelboat with a stupid foil sticking out the side, and yet the boat doesn’t foil, because that’s what this is going to be, that ridiculous looking non-foiling beneteau thing.

Yes admittedly the new Figaro looks a bit odd, but regardless, I think having offshore racing included is a net positive. 

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Doublehanded offshore? Did I read that right?  Seems a bit understaffed unless the boats are pretty small.

ohh...double handed, mixed gender...offshore drilling overnight racing.

 

 

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a large portion of youth sailing is mixed gender whether it is scholastic sailing or olympic development classes. The only single gender event we have are junior womens events and boys/girls state otherwise it is all mixed. If anything this more closely resembles how the next generation of sailors currently race.

 

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There have been a number of misleading communications about the World Sailing 2024 Olympic Sailing Competition Events & Equipment decisions circulating within the Sailing community over the past few days.
World Sailing wish to confirm that the democratic process for selecting events and equipment will be fully in accordance with our regulations and the decisions of the World Sailing Council, ratified at the Annual General Meeting, at the November 2017 Annual Conference.

Two days of the November 2017 Council meeting can be fully reviewed below:


The Council minutes will be published following approval by the Council on Wednesday 20 December 2017.

A detailed announcement containing the summary of the decisions to-date, together with the process that will be undertaken by the Events and Equipment Committees and the World Sailing Board, together with the process for Member National Authorities, Class Associations, the Board, the Chairmen of Committees established by Council, International or Recognized Rating Systems, the Chair of the Women's Forum and the President to make submissions for the Council meeting in May 2018 will be provided by Thursday 14 December 2017.

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5 minutes ago, Flags said:
There have been a number of misleading communications about the World Sailing 2024 Olympic Sailing Competition Events & Equipment decisions circulating within the Sailing community over the past few days.
World Sailing wish to confirm that the democratic process for selecting events and equipment will be fully in accordance with our regulations and the decisions of the World Sailing Council, ratified at the Annual General Meeting, at the November 2017 Annual Conference.

Two days of the November 2017 Council meeting can be fully reviewed below:


The Council minutes will be published following approval by the Council on Wednesday 20 December 2017.

A detailed announcement containing the summary of the decisions to-date, together with the process that will be undertaken by the Events and Equipment Committees and the World Sailing Board, together with the process for Member National Authorities, Class Associations, the Board, the Chairmen of Committees established by Council, International or Recognized Rating Systems, the Chair of the Women's Forum and the President to make submissions for the Council meeting in May 2018 will be provided by Thursday 14 December 2017.

Maybe if World failing was better at communication people would really know what’s going on. Their recent history doesn’t suggest they are either effective communicators or decision makers, assuming the greater good of sailing is their interest (which it is not).

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Just now, sunseeker said:

Maybe if World failing was better at communication people would really know what’s going on. Their recent history doesn’t suggest they are either effective communicators or decision makers, assuming the greater good of sailing is their interest (which it is not).

Aint that true

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Well, it's certainly bold. I can't argue with equalizing men and women athletes....good move. Not sure about 8/10 being monopoly builder classes. Sailors may not like the foiling kite boards, but they may attract millennial TV viewers. IDK how the offshore boats will go over...seems to me like a logistical nightmare.

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Mixed gender sailing isn't big in Oz - so this proposal will require some changes here - could be a positive for female participation or equally a hurdle that will reduce participation in olympic/feeder classes. Most likely outcome here will be "pairings" of sailors from different classes to drop into the olympic squads with money focussed on these squads up until final selection.....not so different to how it is today. Foiling Kites are a no brainer for the lympix - made for television event.

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23 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Well, it's certainly bold. I can't argue with equalizing men and women athletes....good move. Not sure about 8/10 being monopoly builder classes. Sailors may not like the foiling kite boards, but they may attract millennial TV viewers. IDK how the offshore boats will go over...seems to me like a logistical nightmare.

Some very naive persons like myself think that Olympic games are the event that should care less than any other about TV... 

But I know how the world works...

The Olympic Comittee is one of the more corrupt international  institutions in the world, along with FIFA, UEFA and even the UN, but that's the way it is.

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In the spirit of these hypothetical changes, I would be an advocate for coed doublehanded 3v3 team racing as a new medal discipline.  Sail it in Fireflies or similar.   

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41 minutes ago, jewingiv said:

In the spirit of these hypothetical changes, I would be an advocate for coed doublehanded 3v3 team racing as a new medal discipline.  Sail it in Fireflies or similar.   

That would certainly be entertaining for sailors who understand the rules and tactics. I don't think announcers could explain to general public as rapidly as would be required. The big problem would be the additional competitors that IOC wouldn't approve...though that could be addressed by requiring the teams to be comprised of existing team members, which would be very interesting. 

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3 minutes ago, jonas a said:

There seems to be some new info regarding the process. We'll see I guess...

Or not exactly new info, more like there will be clarifications....eventually

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Always thought iceboating would be a fun winter Olympic sport. Venue would be a bitch, but tv coverage could be really good.

 

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18 hours ago, RKoch said:

That would certainly be entertaining for sailors who understand the rules and tactics. I don't think announcers could explain to general public as rapidly as would be required. The big problem would be the additional competitors that IOC wouldn't approve...though that could be addressed by requiring the teams to be comprised of existing team members, which would be very interesting. 

...just how much sailing gets shown to the general public anyways...

                             ...........firefly team racing certainly won't change that!  :lol:

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On 12/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, jimx said:
On 12/11/2017 at 8:45 PM, Couta said:

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/12/11/Olympics-World-Sailings-radical-plan-to-overhaul-2024-eventsclasses

Not sure why they'd want to make this call so quickly - unless it was to cut short discussion/debate.

Initial thoughts - looks like more lympix & taxpayer money will go to even fewer candidates. Mixed gender classes will be virtually no-existent at state & national levels. Interesting to see how this works with Youth classes....but unlikely to boost participation.

Offshore overnighter keelboat class?? Yeah right!

The only thing that makes sense is the foiling kites. Lympix is entertainment and fast ,colourful, foiling kites with graphic overlays, over-hyped commentary and 10 minute races will have eyeball appeal to the masses - if only as a novelty. It's time for sailing to step away from the lympix 5 ring circus but countries like Australia won't give up that winning feeling they get when they beat Ghana in the medal tally.

I’m of the exact opposite opinion.

The mixed gender will boost participation at the lowest levels.  Off-shore keelboat will be fun to watch.  

This setup matches what regular folks actually do - with the exception of kiting.  Nobody kites and it’s stupid to have them in the Olympics.  The kids are not gonna time in to watch that.  I mean cmon, people watch the running, throwing, curling, skiing, all the classic stuff.  Nobody wants skating stunts at the Olympics and nobody wants kiting.

Not me, the Sailing in the $$$ympics are a joke. Typically the World Champion for a given class is not even in the event.

Watching the Cats and 49er in the Rio was a joke. They split the course and no one could tell anything until they came together. 
Watching the Volvo inshore in Cape Town was fare more exciting.

Besides,, it the same countries all the time. Thank god the IPC had the smarts to boot sailing from the Para Games.....Too Fucking Expensive for Emerging Countries to compete.

The mixed team was so limiting to the fleet in the Skud 18 Class. I think there were 11 boats in Rio. I'm sure the fleet would have been triple the size if 2 guys were allowed.
 

22 hours ago, Flags said:
22 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Maybe if World failing was better at communication people would really know what’s going on. Their recent history doesn’t suggest they are either effective communicators or decision makers, assuming the greater good of sailing is their interest (which it is not).

Aint that true

Do the Brits still run World Failing? Just Asking

 

 

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Is it open gender or mixed gender? I know what the article says, just wondering if the writer chose their words write (sic). 

Always though the 470 would be a good mixed gender boat, though, chick driver with a dude on the wire. 

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The WS release just means that someone in power disagrees with the earlier leak, and whoever leaked it. It also means that there is no immediate consensus and that they are not game to release records of what would appear to be total disagreement at the meeting.

This probably means there is the usual division beteween the different factions of WS decision makers. Most likely the result will be as before where the Olympic Sailing industry lobby groups and the successful sailing nations, who are of course heavilly invested in the existig events and classes, will win the significant votes to ensure the status quo, with some minor window dressing.  Happens every 4 years despite the IOC and the internet sailing experts wanting something more exciting.

It remains to see how long this can continue to happen before the IOC goes the same way as the Parra event and ditches our sport.

 

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4 minutes ago, Phil S said:

The WS release just means that someone in power disagrees with the earlier leak, and whoever leaked it. It also means that there is no immediate consensus and that they are not game to release records of what would appear to be total disagreement at the meeting.

This probably means there is the usual division beteween the different factions of WS decision makers. Most likely the result will be as before where the Olympic Sailing industry lobby groups and the successful sailing nations, who are of course heavilly invested in the existig events and classes, will win the significant votes to ensure the status quo, with some minor window dressing.  Happens every 4 years despite the IOC and the internet sailing experts wanting something more exciting.

It remains to see how long this can continue to happen before the IOC goes the same way as the Parra event and ditches our sport.

 

The theory that Olympic sailing somehow helps to grow the sport has failed by all measures, so the faster the IOC casts us off, the sooner we’ll be better.

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But WS and the National authorities need the Olympic money, at all levels. Without it 85% of the jobs in the sailing industry dissappear, ending a lot of careers in admin and coaching. So they are in a quandry between support for the existing classes or their careers. Not sure many admit it though.

 

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Just now, Phil S said:

But WS and the National authorities need the Olympic money, at all levels. Without it 85% of the jobs in the sailing industry dissappear, ending a lot of careers in admin and coaching. So they are in a quandry between support for the existing classes or their careers. Not sure many admit it though.

 

99.9999% of the people who sail don’t give a rats ass about Olympic sailing, and sure as shit have no reason to give even a little bit of a fuck about people who suck money out of the sport from the Olympics. Why should the rest of the sport be structured around the selfish interests of a bunch of arrogant prick coaches and admin people?

 

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38 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

99.9999% of the people who sail don’t give a rats ass about Olympic sailing, and sure as shit have no reason to give even a little bit of a fuck about people who suck money out of the sport from the Olympics. Why should the rest of the sport be structured around the selfish interests of a bunch of arrogant prick coaches and admin people?

 

My god I actually agree with you for once. It has been twenty years since a single kid took up sailing because of the OG. Here in Oz we have enjoyed unprecedented success at the Olympics at the last few and junior sailing participation continues to fall. The best thing that could happen would be for sailing to be dropped from the Games. 20 million spent over 4 years so 7 precious little darlings can go to the games. That would buy a lot of Opties for poor regional areas and kids aspire to the AC or Volvo race - not to hang out for a week with a bunch of drug cheats. 

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3 hours ago, LB 15 said:

My god I actually agree with you for once. It has been twenty years since a single kid took up sailing because of the OG. Here in Oz we have enjoyed unprecedented success at the Olympics at the last few and junior sailing participation continues to fall. The best thing that could happen would be for sailing to be dropped from the Games. 20 million spent over 4 years so 7 precious little darlings can go to the games. That would buy a lot of Opties for poor regional areas and kids aspire to the AC or Volvo race - not to hang out for a week with a bunch of drug cheats. 

Whenever you find yourself on the side of LB, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain.....OK paused, reflected and damn it...still find no fault!! 

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12 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

Is it open gender or mixed gender? I know what the article says, just wondering if the writer chose their words write (sic). 

Always though the 470 would be a good mixed gender boat, though, chick driver with a dude on the wire. 

So how does an athlete who refuses to identify as a particular gender get treated under this proposal? Can't wait to see that one run through the courts!

 

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4 hours ago, sunseeker said:

99.9999% of the people who sail don’t give a rats ass about Olympic sailing

 

Is that so? Your experience might be different if you lived in a country that won a few medals. There is plenty of interest in Olympic sailing around here. 

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Is that so? Your experience might be different if you lived in a country that won a few medals. There is plenty of interest in Olympic sailing around here. 

The members of US clubs might care about Olympic sailing, if there was actually Olympic class racing with fleets of any size here. The way ISAF structured things, especially with the silly World Cup, insured that all the sailors had to be part of their traveling circus and were never at home where they would build a fan base.

You on the other hand live on a god forsaken rock with miserable weather where your sailors can hitch up their boats to a van, hop on a ferry and be on the continent within a couple of hours. Ours, and the Aussie, Kiwi, South American sailors and everywhere else who can’t do the same have a massively different cost and logistics structure to deal with.

Then add the most important part into the equation : like socialized medicine, you Brits have socialized sailing with your gambling funded fountain of money that pays people to sail, and others to bark orders from a coach boat. Nice work if you can get it.

Sailing in the US is fucked up for a lot of reasons, and the Olympics do not help us at all. 

Again, why should the sport be beholden to the rules and structure just because a few people want to get paid for the chance of momentary glory of an Olympic medal?

It’s sort of funny that skating is going to end up playing a role in saving sailing. 

The sad part is that Olympic class sailing, in its original form, developed really great sailors around the globe. Now, there’s just a tiny fraction of sailors who prostitute themselves to be part of the IOC TV and marketing machine, while the sport suffers globally through regulation born of rules to support the Olympic monopoly. 

 

 

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But why should the rest of the world care that you seppos have *****ed up the sport in your own country with your emphasis on rich men, lead mines and college owned barges? Its all pretty comical, because back in the so called good days the sport was dominated by "amateur" US sailors subsidised out of your college system, and the rest of the world was at a huge disadvantage. In spite of the Pom/Aus dominance there are still medals to far more and more disparate countries than there ever used to be.

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2 hours ago, jonas a said:

Here are some FAQs about  the WS olympic selection process 

Interesting. There are aspects of that which do not go down well with me at all. Clearly they are trying to avoid all the horse trading that traditionally goes on at the Nov conference when events are selected and usually things change at the last minute.

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On 12/12/2017 at 4:32 PM, jewingiv said:

In the spirit of these hypothetical changes, I would be an advocate for coed doublehanded 3v3 team racing as a new medal discipline.  Sail it in Fireflies or similar.   

Holy Shit yes.  So much more exciting than kiting or any other x-game crap.  With tech you could have live real time scoring so the announcers wouldn’t have to keep up with the big picture.  Man that would just be incredible. 

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23 hours ago, Phil S said:

But WS and the National authorities need the Olympic money, at all levels. Without it 85% of the jobs in the sailing industry dissappear, ending a lot of careers in admin and coaching. So they are in a quandry between support for the existing classes or their careers. Not sure many admit it though.

 

I don’t follow this, at all.  I’m looking at HS coaching, College coaching, sailmakers, professional racing crew, boat maintenance, boat building, bottom cleaning, the list goes on and on and I don’t see any but the smallest percentage connected to the Olympics.

There are the ODP coaches but they are mainly scamming the parents who think their kids are better than they are.

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On December 13, 2017 at 8:08 AM, GTim said:

Always thought iceboating would be a fun winter Olympic sport. Venue would be a bitch, but tv coverage could be really good.

 

Offshore ice boating? Scuze me whilst I patent that...

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6 minutes ago, monsters inc said:

Offshore ice boating? Scuze me whilst I patent that...

I can't see the annual race from Churchill to Spitzbergen really taking off soon.

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I should have said olympic sailing industry. In Aust about 85% of the income for Yachting Australia (Aust Sailing) is Olympic targetted, coming from national Olympic and government sources. This is what they spend on Olympic aspirants, teams, coaches and admins. Thats the industry I refer to. It also supports the whole organisation by providing offfices and assets big enough to run more efficiently than somethng much smaller.  Without any of this the whole YA (AS) organisation would need to shrink by that % and would lose critical people who spend at least some time supporting other sailing activities, like government liaison, rules, safety etc.

I am sure AS would recover from the shock if the sport was dropped and many local sailors would be pleased. AS would survive but some smaller countries would lose all their admin professionals and maybe all their sailing activity. UK is obviously the biggest sailing country and would be affected least. Most of the US probably would not notice either. Its the smaller countries which get the most value from the olympics.

The point of my earlier post is that  it is the same people at WS representig their countries who will make the decisions. Some are career administrators. Some have deep loyalty to old classes. Will they push to retain their class and the staus quo or vote for change to preserve their careers? Seems we will not know now until November 2019.

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1 hour ago, Phil S said:

. UK is obviously the biggest sailing country and would be affected least.

I'm not sure why you'd think that. Most keen sailors of any level in the UK will have used facilities that were at least partly paid for by "Elite Sport" funding and that goes only to Olympic Sports and moreover to ones in which GBR wins medals. Venues that run international events such as WSC and HISC have been among the beneficiaries of such funding, plenty of UK sailors go to championships and other events at the same venues.

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So UK is unlike AUS where there has been zero permanent infrastructue built from Olympic related funding, even including the Sydney 2000 games where all the sailing facilities were temporary and quickly dismantled soon afterwards. The heritage from SYDNEY 2000 in our sport is a few clubs still using the inflatable rounding marks.

UK has benefited much more from past funding so their future will suffer more if the pipeline shuts down. 

 

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Yeah, I think there would have to be a question mark about the financial viability of some of the big venues if the tap was turned off. I'm sure the Olympic side and the related youth stuff must provide a lot of regular income to the big venues like Weymouth/Portland, Pwllhelli and even HISC. Likely we'd lose at least some of those venues. But we didn't have any of that in the 60s and 70s and managed to run the sport well enough. Some of the medium and large clubs would probably benefit if WPNSA weren't creaming off a lot of the big Champs *provided* the volunteers were there. To my mind it would be awkward if we lost those venues, but not disastrous. But I'm not a fan of the big facilities, others may think diferently.

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

Yeah, I think there would have to be a question mark about the financial viability of some of the big venues if the tap was turned off. I'm sure the Olympic side and the related youth stuff must provide a lot of regular income to the big venues like Weymouth/Portland, Pwllhelli and even HISC. Likely we'd lose at least some of those venues. But we didn't have any of that in the 60s and 70s and managed to run the sport well enough. Some of the medium and large clubs would probably benefit if WPNSA weren't creaming off a lot of the big Champs *provided* the volunteers were there. To my mind it would be awkward if we lost those venues, but not disastrous. But I'm not a fan of the big facilities, others may think diferently.

My local dinghy club is tiny but we have a successful junior programme and are an excellent winter training venue, so we have hosted a fair number of camps over the past few years.  The trickle down funding has paid for a new outboard, amongst other club equipment & property upgrades. 

 Our young sailors have had access to top class training by some inspirational people and are better sailors, and people,  for it. 

 We would miss it if it went. 

 

Cheers, 

                 W.

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Same here in Ireland. High Performance funding is ring fenced and the program has it's own board.

Perhaps the best cross over is achieved by the hard work of the RS200/400 class who offer to buy up the no longer wanted laser if the kids want to have some fun.

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On 12/14/2017 at 6:13 PM, Couta said:

So how does an athlete who refuses to identify as a particular gender get treated under this proposal?

How a person identifies is irrelevant, it's sex that matters, see Sex verification in sports. It seems testing is not particularly authoritative, but it's not an issue confined to sailing.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

How a person identifies is irrelevant, it's sex that matters, see Sex verification in sports. It seems testing is not particularly authoritative, but it's not an issue confined to sailing.

There was some discussions regarding intersex athletes on Science of sport earlier this year or last year. Especially about a certain South African t&f athlete . Not sure what the situation is right now

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On 12/14/2017 at 3:19 AM, dogwatch said:

Is that so? Your experience might be different if you lived in a country that won a few medals. There is plenty of interest in Olympic sailing around here. 

There may be interest, but the UK (and Aus) are far too small to make any real dent.  Even with awesome penetration in the UK, the Weymouth sailing broadcasts from London 2012 were still amongst the bottom 3 Olympic sports in viewership.

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The discussion above was on the level of interest by sailors in the Olympics, not interest among the general public. 

 

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On 15 December 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil S said:

So UK is unlike AUS where there has been zero permanent infrastructue built from Olympic related funding, even including the Sydney 2000 games where all the sailing facilities were temporary and quickly dismantled soon afterwards. The heritage from SYDNEY 2000 in our sport is a few clubs still using the inflatable rounding marks.

UK has benefited much more from past funding so their future will suffer more if the pipeline shuts down. 

 

That's not entirely true Phil. They renovated the showers at Middle Harbour and we now have 3 ugly shipping containers at our club which is 'the Australian windsurfing centre of excellence'. A few people racked up some impressive frequent flyer points as well.

To win an Olympic medal one has to beat about 3 other competitive sailors and twenty Eddie the eagles. It gets about the same amount of air time as the 10 meter air pistol and synchronised swimming. But Commodores  of yacht clubs do enjoy getting their photo taken with them. 

 

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4 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

do the sailors get to pick their own gender?

A few posters on here seem quite fluid.

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Double handed long distance sailing?  Right...  One person sleeping and the other has the boat balanced and sailing with the auto pilot.  Oh look! - the skipper is easing the jib sheet a 1/4 inch!  Looks like he needs to wake up the crew so he can jibe in a 1/2 hour.  Can you say boring?

IMHO Team Racing would be perfect for the Olympics.  A college style, 3 on 3 race sailed in the digital N course takes about 15 minutes.  Mark traps, breaking overlaps, boats held past the lay line.  It's great stuff.  In most sailing its all about what's going on in-front of you.  In team racing the action is behind you - how can I punish my dude?  You switch boats after each race so the media can interview the sailors.  It's totally coed and probably the one sport in all of the Olympics where girls can compete equally with the boys. 

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

A few posters on here seem quite fluid.

Yes we do. We live in the land of the free (to choose one of the 56 [and counting]genders) of the brave.

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10 minutes ago, abc said:

Double handed long distance sailing?  Right...  One person sleeping and the other has the boat balanced and sailing with the auto pilot.  Oh look! - the skipper is easing the jib sheet a 1/4 inch!  Looks like he needs to wake up the crew so he can jibe in a 1/2 hour.  Can you say boring?

IMHO Team Racing would be perfect for the Olympics.  A college style, 3 on 3 race sailed in the digital N course takes about 15 minutes.  Mark traps, breaking overlaps, boats held past the lay line.  It's great stuff.  In most sailing its all about what's going on in-front of you.  In team racing the action is behind you - how can I punish my dude?  You switch boats after each race so the media can interview the sailors.  It's totally coed and probably the one sport in all of the Olympics where girls can compete equally with the boys. 

Maybe they should also include hop scotch, blind mans bluff and other games designed for children. 

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Much better with 4 boat team racing in laser radial

- boats are ready

- 2 of the sailors ready

- 2 additional sailors can be from fx, nacra etc

- 4 boat team racing with 1-2-7-8 as loosing combination is much more challenging than 3 boat

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