bal340

Another what's the best dingy question

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Never sailed a dingy have got into keel boat sailing (crew) as an adult now 53 and want to buy a dingy to sharpen up my skills and be able to single hand sail.

looking for ideas on dinghies, would be sailed on Port Phillip bay Melbourne prefer more modern design that does not capsize easily and is forgving and fun to sail. 

Appreciate feedback and advice on types of dingies available.

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Any fleets active in your area?  While they may not be sailing a modern design, they prolly have good drinks and coaching to help youget better quicker.

Eric

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5 hours ago, bal340 said:

Never sailed a dingy have got into keel boat sailing (crew) as an adult now 53 and want to buy a dingy to sharpen up my skills and be able to single hand sail.

looking for ideas on dinghies, would be sailed on Port Phillip bay Melbourne prefer more modern design that does not capsize easily and is forgving and fun to sail. 

Appreciate feedback and advice on types of dingies available.

The RS Aero seems to be taking off in your area with the 2018 Australian Nationals at Black Rock YC in April. Probably worth checking one out. It's certainly a "more modern design" and it doesn't capsize any more frequently than a Laser.

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=event&eid=1450

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Aero is fun to sail and light to pull up the beach, which in your 50s is a blessing IMO. "Does not capsize easily" depends on your idea of "easily" I guess. No more easily than most other single-handed dinghies. If people queue up say "Laser", well yes if you want to race and there's a local fleet but otherwise the Aero incorporates 40 years of progress in design and materials.

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Oh Dear! He has never sailed a dinghy before? He doesn't want to capsize. And you guys are going to put him in an aero?

Cruel.

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And your suggestion for a single hander that does not capsize is what?

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Hmmm. Modern Dinghy and not capsizing in australia dont go to well together. also sailing on port Phillip. Make sure you have a wetty over winter!

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"dinghy" and "no-capsize" in the same sentence?

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The Weta trimaran could be a candidate. Easy, versatile for a beginner, can handle rough weather, hard to capsize. Not specially physical. Can bring friends/family along.

Not strictly a dinghy either :)

It can be a good fun, ocassional race boat and then, if and when you want to get something more demanding, you can switch to a modern dinghy...

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For a first dinghy I would recommend something like the Wayfarer which is reasonably stable (especially with a reefable main). Not something so fast and light as an Aero--which often requires kneeling on the centerline in order to remain upright.While no dinghy is "capsize proof" there is a vast difference in the amount of stability available in various designs---not to mention ultralights require lightning reflexes and the ability to droop hike for long periods of time to get the best performance out of the boat. If the guy is 55 and new to dinghies he should NOT get an Aero. Get real, guys.

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If you have no dinghy experience, I would buy the cheapest used Sunfish and sail it hard until it capsizes every day for 3 months. Then sell it and buy an RS Aero. Seriously though, a capsize in a 130 lb dinghy is nothing to be scared of. While racing my Sunfish last August,  I watched a 70 year old go over in Aero during a race with a 17 knot wind. He was back up in under 30 seconds and still beat me to the next mark.

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17 minutes ago, Eddie_E said:

If you have no dinghy experience, I would buy the cheapest used Sunfish and sail it hard until it capsizes every day for 3 months. Then sell it and buy an RS Aero. Seriously though, a capsize in a 130 lb dinghy is nothing to be scared of. While racing my Sunfish last August,  I watched a 70 year old go over in Aero during a race with a 17 knot wind. He was back up in under 30 seconds and still beat me to the next mark.

Right on Eddie_E.

Seriously bal340 - don't let anyone tell you that you are too old to do anything.

Capsizes in a 130 lb boat are not to be feared. They are all part of the fun of dinghy sailing.

You asked for a dinghy that's modern and singlehanded and fun.

A Wayfarer is not single-handed.

A Sunfish is not modern (and you are unlikely to find one in Australia anyway.)

A Laser is not modern, but you could substitute Laser for Sunfish in Eddie's advice.

A Weta is not a dinghy but it does tick all the other boxes.

Capsizes in a 65 lb boat are not to be feared. They are all part of the fun of dinghy sailing.

Listen to all the advice. Try out yourself the boats that appeal to you.

Don't let anyone tell you that you are too old to do anything.

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Don't lock yourself in - start with a simpler configuration and upgrade as your skills improve - the new Seascape 14 (with an Australian dealer) and a few others permit this by simply adding sails rather than more expensive options like mast and or sail changes etc. Simplicity of boat handling and stability are also important and so is of course comfort!

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8 hours ago, edward mason said:

For a first dinghy I would recommend something like the Wayfarer which is reasonably stable (especially with a reefable main). Not something so fast and light as an Aero--which often requires kneeling on the centerline in order to remain upright.

Wayfarers are a classic cruising dinghy for two large adults. Single-handing a Wayfarer doesn't sound very much fun, especially moving a 170kg boat around on shore by yourself. 

I sail an Aero and kneeling on the centreline is neither required nor a good idea. Too static.

 

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 You dont have to get on the centerline? So tell me how a 100kg sailor can sit on the side tank of a 30 kg boat dead downwind in light air.

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33 minutes ago, edward mason said:

 You dont have to get on the centerline? So tell me how a 100kg sailor can sit on the side tank of a 30 kg boat dead downwind in light air.

 

Sit sideways. One foot on leeward side, other foot on windward side. Butt on inner edge of side deck. Weight of body supported on three points. Can easily shift weight to either side as necessary. Does not require "lightning reflexes."

In very light winds you sit further forward with one knee by side of daggerboard. Same principle though.

You do see novices keeling on the floor of the cockpit facing forward, but if you do that you don't have the same ability to adjust weight side to side. 

And for what it's worth you wouldn't normally sail the Aero dead downwind when racing. Sailing by the lee or a very broad reach gives you better VMG towards the leeward mark.

 

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100kg is too much for an Aero. Light air downwind you should sit across the deck out of the cockpit, well forwards to stop the stern dragging. There is nowhere to kneel that far forward. Heavy air, on side tank or squatting in the rear of the cockpit, weight mobile to help steering and balance. It's a light boat, you've got to be able to move around in a breeze. Kneeling would be followed by swimming.

7581b445dccfa64aae20f40fb4c37141.jpg

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21 hours ago, svein99 said:

Don't lock yourself in - start with a simpler configuration and upgrade as your skills improve - the new Seascape 14 (with an Australian dealer) and a few others permit this by simply adding sails rather than more expensive options like mast and or sail changes etc. Simplicity of boat handling and stability are also important and so is of course comfort!

Buy an add!

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The Aero's not a good boat for a 100kg person - agree with dogwatch in that respect (speaking from experience here), propensity to capsize would be compounded by your weight.  I'm in a local group of sailors who are doing a fleet purchase of the new VX Evo's, most of us are >100kg   Cool platform I think?  Bigger boat and you can add the complexity of a kite when your ready to step it up.   What might be most interesting is recent addition of a weighted keel to be used until your comfortable without it (still vaporware, ask Vela). 

That new seascape looks very similar, albeit even more docile.   If you would put a weighted CB on it for temporary use i'd say it would be almost ideal, based on your criteria.

http://bennettyachting.com/vx-evo/

 

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Get a Laser! I'm sure there is a good master fleet gand the Australian Masters are the best in the world.

Invest $2000, start sailing and see if you like dinghy sailing. If you are reasonably fit, 100kgs will not be your main problem for a while.

You'll capsize; get used to it. Get good clothing. You'll learn a lot, very fast.

If you get into it, in a year or two you can either upgrade your laser or sell it and get into another class.

What you learned and the clothing will transfer well.

If you find out that you don't like dinghies, you spent very little to find out.

Eyandy106500.jpg.34640f602a09dfca01bd417cd1f836d6.jpg

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Your brief is exactly what a WETA is.

I took up sailing at 42. Went straight from the sailing course to the Weta. Sailors don´t realize how much knowledge they have from having done the youth Opti/Laser thing.

It does not require a lot of effort, but it is sporty when sailing in 20kt winds.

You will rarely capsize. I haven´t so far.

In 5 years of sailing almost every weekend, I haven´t outgrown it nor lost interest. In fact I can´t wait for the weekend to arrive to sail again. Only people who come from true HP boats (29er, 49er etc) or from a racing background find it too easy, but that´s not your problem. Is 10-15kt fun enough for you?

Plus: It is at its best as a singlehander, but you can cruise and take family/friends out by design.

Con: might lack a fleet for racing in your area if you want to do that

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3 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Buy an add!

Seascape is an advertiser on Sailing Anarchy. See the "Front Page".

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On 12/20/2017 at 4:10 PM, Eddie_E said:

If you have no dinghy experience, I would buy the cheapest used Sunfish and sail it hard until it capsizes every day for 3 months. Then sell it and buy an RS Aero. Seriously though, a capsize in a 130 lb dinghy is nothing to be scared of. While racing my Sunfish last August,  I watched a 70 year old go over in Aero during a race with a 17 knot wind. He was back up in under 30 seconds and still beat me to the next mark.

Not all capsizes are the same.  When you capsize to leeward after a bad tack, it's pretty easy to jump on the centerboard and get back up without getting too wet.  A downwind deathroll is very often a complete clusterfuck.

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+1 on the Weta but if you've not got enough coin then 14ft cats.  When you run out of puff you can let everything go and just sit there for a while.  Cost can be anything from A$600 up.

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My sentiments exactly!  There seem to be two main schools of thought  on capsizes. Sailors who learned on (usually high performance) dinghies and usually younger than mid forties see frequent capsize and recovery as the entrance fee you must pay to enjoy the sport. Sailors from an earlier era see frequent capsize as an indication of either a poor design or poor sailing skills. In jack Holts day{ designer of the mirror dinghy and the enterprise dinghy among others ) a sailor was expected to retire from a race if his club burgee flown from the masthead touched water. Admitedly sailors who capsize and recover often are less likely to get themselves into real trouble than those of us who try to avoid it at all costs.But still, to me, its not just part of the fun. I understand where the original poster was coming from. I once somewhat proudly told an I C sailor I had only capsized 4 times in 40  Years. He {just as proudly, it seemed} replied that he commonly capsizes 4 times in one race !  And he did! In the subsequent portsmouth event he would fly by everyone almost like they were standing still only to capsize spectactularly a few seconds later .While he was recovering and getting everything untangled the slower boats would catch up to him only to be passed again as soon as he got his rocket ship up and flying. But a minute or so later the whole show was repeated when he capsized again.While he was sailing very fast he wasnt able to do it for very long before he lost it. Some folks may enjoy that sort of thing but thats not my idea of fun. I still see sailing and swimming as two separate activities, ideally. Its not just that capsizing isnt fun, its dangerous , and the older and the more out of shape the sailor is the more dangerous it is. I watched a you tube race video and saw an older force five sailor repeatedly get his boat upright from a 360 capsize only to pull the boat over on him every time he tried to get in.(Didnt realize he had to come in over the transom) Luckily the chase boat arrived to help him. If he had been alone and in cold water he probably wouldnt have made it. A heavier boat like the wayfarer would have been easier to get back in over the side and in the right conditions can still have a pretty good turn of speed.Of course its not as fast as an Aero or an I C  but an older beginner should decide whether he wants to combine the sports of sailing and swimming or keep them separate.

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regarding capsize. I wouldn't mind save for: I sail alone with no boats nearby; and I sail in shallow water and don't like risking a carbon fiber mast. The one time we capsized though,  the mast got stuck and took 40min of abuse with no more than mud and a few broken battens

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Back to the original question. In summary:

Capsizing happens with all small boats so pick a boat which you can right.

There are no Sunfish or Wayfairers in Australia. There are however lots of cheap lasers and small catamarans. Some Aeros and Wetas but these are all newer and will cost a lot more.

Go to the most convenient small boat club and select a type which they sail, most likely Laser or one of the many 14-16ft Cats. Listen to the people in that class and take their advice. Choose the right gentle weather to start with. Do not go out on Port Phillip unless the club rescue boat is available, and stay close enough so they can help you.  

Port Phillip is a very big and very dangerous place to be alone with a broken boat.

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8 minutes ago, Phil S said:

Back to the original question. In summary:

Capsizing happens with all small boats so pick a boat which you can right.

There are no Sunfish or Wayfairers in Australia. There are however lots of cheap lasers and small catamarans. Some Aeros and Wetas but these are all newer and will cost a lot more.

Go to the most convenient small boat club and select a type which they sail, most likely Laser or one of the many 14-16ft Cats. Listen to the people in that class and take their advice. Choose the right gentle weather to start with. Do not go out on Port Phillip unless the club rescue boat is available, and stay close enough so they can help you.  

Port Phillip is a very big and very dangerous place to be alone with a broken boat.

this.

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A couple of other single handed classes that may fit the bill are the Sabre and Impulse. Both are much nicer to sail (for a first dinghy at 50+) than a Laser and about the same performance. They are also available in both wood and fiberglass and have reasonable numbers in various places. Both can be home built if you're keen.

 

There are a few Impulses for sale in Vic, and Sabres too.

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I recently roped a couple of newbie-ish sailor friends of mine, who didn't own a boat, and would pester me for sailing time, into buying a Weta. We looked a a couple dozen options; and Wetas have enormous versatility, from easy-and-forgiving to spinnaker runs in big winds. Stable, can be launched, sailed, retrieved solo; can take a friend + some kids.

This morning we had the inaugural sailing, and it was grand. We figured out a few tricks to leave it mostly-rigged-up; I came back in the afternoon and in 10 minutes I had it launched; and was teaching my mother-in-law how to sail it. From launch, she sailed it in complete control for 90 minutes, tacking, tracking windshifts, the works.

Fabulous boat.

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It will come as a surprise to some that there are Sunfish in Australia.

They were built under a license agreement In Geelong  BY a company called Body Craft.

I dont know how many were built  but i have one in storage while i am out of the country.

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20 minutes ago, proto one said:

It will come as a surprise to some that there are Sunfish in Australia.

They were built under a license agreement In Geelong  BY a company called Body Craft.

I dont know how many were built  but i have one in storage while i am out of the country.

I did not know that.

Perhaps the new Sunfish class ISCO will hold their first Sunfish World Championship in Australia?

100 brand new charter boats on Sydney Harbor, say.

Who's in?

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24 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

I recently roped a couple of newbie-ish sailor friends of mine, who didn't own a boat, and would pester me for sailing time, into buying a Weta. We looked a a couple dozen options; and Wetas have enormous versatility, from easy-and-forgiving to spinnaker runs in big winds. Stable, can be launched, sailed, retrieved solo; can take a friend + some kids.

This morning we had the inaugural sailing, and it was grand. We figured out a few tricks to leave it mostly-rigged-up; I came back in the afternoon and in 10 minutes I had it launched; and was teaching my mother-in-law how to sail it. From launch, she sailed it in complete control for 90 minutes, tacking, tracking windshifts, the works.

Fabulous boat.

Briiliant!

If I could get a second-hand one for under $2,000 and there were any fleets around here, I would buy one.

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@tillerman well, the OP didn't say whether he wanted fleet racing, which is one way to sharpen your skills, but far from the only one.

He did say a bunch of things -- hard to capsize, fun, easy. Weta is a good fit for those, and I think there's a bunch in Oz.

Not the only, and I won't claim best, but definitely interesting. This one I found virtually unused, fully kitted for $8k. From the look of the sails, it only had been sailed once or twice. Couple scratches in the hull from launching.

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I have no idea what sailing toy will best  suit your needs. 

Please go to a nearby body of water and start asking for help. Visit with as many sailors as you can. Perhaps some will offer rides. Perhaps they will guide you to another sport. 

Perhaps you will stumble across a fleet of sailors who will selfishly  drag you towards their game rather than consider and respond to your needs. 

all I can say is, “This fellow seems interested in trying a little boat.”

if I were one of the sailors you wouid aporoach, I wouid help you to get a ride or ten in hopes you wouid find something you could enjoy. 

 

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On 12/21/2017 at 9:06 AM, edward mason said:

 You dont have to get on the centerline? So tell me how a 100kg sailor can sit on the side tank of a 30 kg boat dead downwind in light air.

I'm 87 kg and I did fine with it. Just like Tillerman said, one foot pressuring the opposite side. It was slightly wobbly in 8 knot winds, but I never got wet. Sailing was more stable when the wind picked up.  My only issue in light air with the Aero was that the factory demo had a 2m tiller extension. If it were mine, I would have cut 30 cm off the tiller extension.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I have no idea what sailing toy will best  suit your needs. 

Please go to a nearby body of water and start asking for help. Visit with as many sailors as you can. Perhaps some will offer rides. Perhaps they will guide you to another sport. 

Perhaps you will stumble across a fleet of sailors who will selfishly  drag you towards their game rather than consider and respond to your needs. 

all I can say is, “This fellow seems interested in trying a little boat.”

if I were one of the sailors you wouid aporoach, I wouid help you to get a ride or ten in hopes you wouid find something you could enjoy. 

Gouvernail has nailed the issue, nuff said

2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

 

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On 12/21/2017 at 9:36 PM, RobG said:

A couple of other single handed classes that may fit the bill are the Sabre and Impulse. Both are much nicer to sail (for a first dinghy at 50+) than a Laser and about the same performance. They are also available in both wood and fiberglass and have reasonable numbers in various places. Both can be home built if you're keen.

 

There are a few Impulses for sale in Vic, and Sabres too.

This is the first I have seen of those, as I'm on the other side of the pond. If we had one here I would love to sail an Impulse. Looks like it would be much more stable than a Laser and a bit dryer to sail.

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On 12/21/2017 at 5:35 PM, torrid said:

Not all capsizes are the same.  When you capsize to leeward after a bad tack, it's pretty easy to jump on the centerboard and get back up without getting too wet.  A downwind deathroll is very often a complete clusterfuck.

I've reserved all my downwind clusterfucks for 14' catamarans.

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The Impulse and Sabre can be home built from plywood. Ask the associations about plan availability.

 

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2 hours ago, Phil S said:

The Impulse and Sabre can be home built from plywood. Ask the associations about plan availability.

 

Suggest:

- finding which fleets are nearby first, I've sailed without other boats of same class around and it sucks big time (the boat's fun wore out rather quickly)

- best to buy a second hand one too, at it'll save you time and get you on the water quicker

- race the boat - you'll learn more from a season of racing other boats (of the same class) in one season than you would pleasure-sailing in five.

Don't worry about capsising, I've done it many times and learn from the experience.

Enjoy the sailing and adventure

Fish

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Where on Port Phillip bay? We sailed a 14 Worlds there out of Sandringham. Having sailed 14s, small cats, laser, etc (no aero) and having owned a Weta when the kids were little, I’d say weta. The seas at Sandringham were a handful on the 14, they’d be easy peasy for a Weta. A lot of fun actually.

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I would suggest the Sabre. I believe it was designed for Port Phillip Bay, it’s a sit-in, rather than sit-on dinghy and there are multiple fleets around the bay. I’ve seen a number of sailors older than 53 taking Sabres out.

Class website

Importantly, I’d second the idea of not sailing without some sort of safety cover on the Bay. It’s just not worth the risk. Speaking as someone who got too excited about a chance to sail a Laser and who ended up needing rescue.....

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On Port Phillip Bay.

Sail with the men and get an ok dinghy or Finn. If you want to sail in a mixed gender fleet then Sabre or Implulse. All of the above can be found second hand cheap in Melbourne.

 

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I often give advice about what boat I think might suit a person’s needs. 

Unless I have known the person for a while or had an extensive conversation about options, financial capability, and goals I limit my advice to:

Go down to the local sailing club or marina and fill your head with enough information to make a good decision. 

I do suggest to every one of them, falling in love with a boat is just like falling in love itch any other big purchase ... it clouds your judgement and often leads to disappointing results 

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In Melbourne, either a Sabre or an Impulse. There are more Sabre's around, and the market is active, the fleet is strong and helpful. Impulses are better for bigger sailors, but there aren't so many around. An old laser would get the job done too, but wetter/less comfortable/tippier. The RS Aero is still kinda new, not sure what the secondhand market is like yet, and they don't really do much more than a Sabre/Impulse.

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Bal340 out, 

Proably a scam in the first place.

To see who gets into the stupid discussion. 

 

Why even bother? 

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On 12/21/2017 at 4:46 AM, martin.langhoff said:

The Weta trimaran could be a candidate. Easy, versatile for a beginner, can handle rough weather, hard to capsize. Not specially physical. Can bring friends/family along.

Not strictly a dinghy either :)

It can be a good fun, ocassional race boat and then, if and when you want to get something more demanding, you can switch to a modern dinghy...

I don't know but when I went to Rose Bay to try one out, the guy seemed so dead scared of gusts pushing the lee armor nose down into a capsize, he wanted to completely dump the main at every gust.  I just eased and bore away at speed instead but he was pretty anxious "dump, dump, dump", seemed a bit over the top reaction as I kept her flat anyway.  I just thought, I wouldn't mind seeing what this is like to right anyway.  You have to take out the lee armor bung, flood it and sink it under the main hull.  sounds like quite a business compared to dropping over a dinghy gunwale onto the centerboard and pulling it up before the sails gets wet.

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30 minutes ago, kenwstr said:

I don't know but when I went to Rose Bay to try one out, the guy seemed so dead scared of gusts pushing the lee armor nose down into a capsize, he wanted to completely dump the main at every gust.  I just eased and bore away at speed instead but he was pretty anxious "dump, dump, dump", seemed a bit over the top reaction as I kept her flat anyway.  I just thought, I wouldn't mind seeing what this is like to right anyway.  You have to take out the lee armor bung, flood it and sink it under the main hull.  sounds like quite a business compared to dropping over a dinghy gunwale onto the centerboard and pulling it up before the sails gets wet.

It’s pretty easy and drama free. As you might imagine the boat is very stable turtled so you have all the time you want to take a breath, walk over, undo the hatch, stand there till she slowly rights.

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On 28/12/2017 at 9:18 PM, High Flow said:

Why even bother? 

Because we like to talk about boats.

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Can't help but chime in to let you know that the Raider II is an awesome sailboat.  Very versatile, and its always fun to single hand 3 sails (main, jib, spinnaker)... or just throw up the spinnaker and haul down wind with all the other boats.  The s.Support is awesome, I couldn't be happier nor imagine a better sport dinghy.  If you feel mellow then just use the mainsail.  If you get bored which I do pretty quick, throw out more sail area using other options you have with 2 furlers !! here is a link: https://www.facebook.com/raidersailboat/

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Get a Sabre, awesome boat.

I am 6ft and 85kg with a disability that hinders my movement around the boat.

I used to sail dinghy as a teen but now 40 and got a sabre. Can't roll tack like the best but cane 12th at the states in a 30yo boat that cost me $1200!!

I would really struggle in a Laser but the extra hull stability of the Sabre helps heaps, plus when I get my new  $800 sail it will last more than 1/2 a season!!

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On 2017-12-19 at 2:49 AM, bal340 said:

prefer more modern design that does not capsize easily and is forgving and fun to sail. 

Appreciate feedback and advice on types of dingies available.

Musto Skiff, or if you can't quite manage it, International Contender.

Seriously: rather than coming up with a pre-conceived idea of the ideal boat, just follow the advice given by Eric ("Burnt Chef"), post #2: sail whatever is popular in your local area.

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There is a fleet of Wetas based in Melbourne who sail out of Frankston and a dealer, Colin Bresnahan of Weta Victoria, who is based in Melbourne and has a demo boat available.

We recently registered as a Class Association and expect to hold our first nationals next season. A bit late for this year mainly because Australian Sailing wanted A$800 in public liability insurance before you could register - fine for big classes but ridiculous if you're just getting going. Thankfully that requirement has now been dropped for 2018.

There are about 50 Wetas spread around the country with growing interest in the new lightweight foam core Performance model and square top sail. Previous events in NSW have attracted 10 Wetas (Jervis Bay) and 12 in Queensland (Lake Cootharaba) and we also sent a container load over to the World Masters Games in Auckland last April.

I think a Weta is a dinghy in the same way a Hobie 16 is a dinghy - the Weta just happens to have an extra hull - but it tacks more like a monohull than a cat. And for anyone who weighs 100Kg the Weta is ideal since no abs of steel are required - you just sit on the tramp or (if you're feeling energetic) sit on the amas upwind. Yes, you can capsize them but you have to work really hard to do so - and it only takes 5 mins to right it if you do with no outside assistance required. However the main advantage to the Weta is you can take it out in almost any conditions - I've raced in 35 knots when only the Flying Dutchman was still out. And there was a Weta sailor in Scotland who survived a 56 knot squall which decimated the rest of the fleet.

We have an active Facebook page (facebook.com/ausweta) and newsletter (archive here). More info on the website at www.weta.com.au

The Weta also does well in mixed fleet racing....

 


 

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A Weta beating an FD in big wind?  Heresy!  

Seriously, looked like a great race, and windsurfers, B14's. 16's, 18's, Tasars?  Sounds like your immigration policy is better than ours.  Congrats.  I'm going to contact the FD owners and tell them they are not welcome to the USA under our new, merit based policy.  

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On 2017-12-20 at 4:42 PM, svein99 said:

the new Seascape 14

Is it possible for you to make one post without shilling for Seascape? <_<

  • Like 1

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1 hour ago, Svanen said:

Is it possible for you to make one post without shilling for Seascape? <_<

I believe he works for them... an enthusiastic advocate... They advertise on the front page.

Everybody else has their favorites so what's wrong if he does too?

P.S. His post that you quoted was almost two months ago...Try to keep up. :D

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