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nacradriver

Pit Bulls Behaving Badly.... Again

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Raised since puppies ?....feeding them since puppies is not raising....something does not added up....the dogs never considered her as dominate in the relationship

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Sure, it's always the Pit Bulls that get the bad press. You never read stories about Chihuahuas or Yorkies mauling people to death.  Don't think for a moment that it doesn't happen, it's just that nobody wants to read that kind of story, vicious Pit Bulls are far more exciting. 

Yorkie.jpg.b95fc2da628d1dcf66925c9f32c9923a.jpg5a396f1f8e6ef_ThugLife.jpg.badaf931c1f6bde807fff8b89613f5f4.jpg

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59 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

People should have to go through certification to own a dog. I'm sick of shitty dog owners.

Dog.

 

 

You can tell a lot about people by how they treat their dogs. 

I have never struck my child or my dogs.  

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Got grabbed on the wrist by Pit/Mastiff mix.  No blood, hurt like hand caught in vise.  Customer all upset, owner (visiting son) all over the place apologizing.  Told them this will happen again etc, etc.  Dog inside when I come now.

Thanksgiving:  after playing with great-grandson in front of 20+ family , the dog goes after the 6 y.o. when kid simply ran by the dog.   Chaos, kid to ER, stitches and some trauma  counseling etc.

Dog is old, schitzy -and @ 90 # too much to handle when it flips out.

People keep this old bull around and they’re looking to get smacked down in court.

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I might have mentioned this before - and I don’t own a pit - I’ve been to lots of dog bites over 37 years in EMS. Not one was a pit. Mostly little rat dogs. Most kid bites were facial and scalp. The worst were the medium sizes.....beagles, poodles etc. I only responded to one serious mauling....it was to a kid. It wasn’t pretty. It was a rottie. The dog damn near got my partner and I during the rescue as well. If not for the timely arrival of several sheriffs deputies and their shotguns I shudder to think what our outcome would have been. Pits are dangerous dogs when mishandled, but they are far from the only “dangerous” dogs. I saw a chihuahua had opened a kids face from the eye to the corner of the mouth. “Little” dogs bites are not always “little”.

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Years ago my landlord told me his son was attacked by his own Doberman ...his son was on his back on the ground with his dog attacking him...his son managed to get a knife out of his pocket and stab the dog until it relented....I had a good friend with two pits early 70's before they became popular as tough guy dogs....they were perfectly behaved...well trained and exercised....never saw them tied up.... 

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Is it just fake news that the vast majority of fatal dog maulings are pits of some sort?

They are relentless - that's what they were bred for. All dogs are good dogs - until they aren't

When there are over 2000 breeds of dog there is no reason to own one of them.

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It appears some people don't understand that many small dog breeds were specifically bred to hunt rodents.  They need to be small to get into the dens and other tight places where rodents lurk.  Many rodents can be quite mean when cornered so it takes a tough dog to kill them.  All of the terrier breeds were bred to hunt little critters.

On the other end of the spectrum, my dream dog would be an Irish Wolfhound.  Big and even tempered as well as intelligent and loyal.  The only drawback is like Great Danes, they usually only live about 6 or 7 years.  They are great hunting dogs, they're the reason Ireland no longer has wolves.  They are fast enough and strong enough to take down a deer and kill it but I'm pretty sure that's illegal just about everywhere.  Good to have them in a (high) fenced yard if there is a lot of wildlife in the neighborhood.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Is it just fake news that the vast majority of fatal dog maulings are pits of some sort?

They are relentless - that's what they were bred for. All dogs are good dogs - until they aren't

When there are over 2000 breeds of dog there is no reason to own one of them.

Well, yes and no. The vast majority of fatal mailings are pits. Were they bred to maul people? Well, no. No more than boxers, rotties, shepards, dobermans or any other "well equipped" canine.......ever wonder why 40 years ago there was not this fascination with pits and how they were not killing everyone they came in contact with? When I was growing up, the big "boogy man" dog was dobermans. Dangerous killers. Now? I believe the reason is the pit became the gotta have bad ass gangsta dog in popular culture. That caused lots more pits in circulation. Volume + idiots + capability = increase in frequency of serious/fatal encounters. Eliminate pits and the stupidity will simply shift, not stop.

Correlation is not causation.

Do I avoid pits when walking my dog and will cross the street to avoid contact....heck yes......but I do that with all the large breed powerful dogs I encounter unless I know the dog and owner.

I've known some pretty sweet pits..................

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Just now, Point Break said:

Want to talk about dangerous dogs....how about the various Presa Canario or Cane Corso? Those are dangerous dogs.

Extremely so.  Most Pitties I have known were very nice dogs, I never met one of those above, that I wasn't told not to pet it or even reach toward it.

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Regardless of breed....

Psycho dog (for whatever reason) and an uncaring, or psycho owner (for whatever reason) is never a good combination.

Bad things happen to the animals...

 

 

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She looked like a candidate for the "Teachers gone bad" thread. Maybe she was showing more attention to one of her pupils than the other, and......

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On the subject of big dogs:

http://stephenbodio.blogspot.com/2013/09/of-livestock-predators-guardians.html

 

Cat Urbigkit is one of the best writers on the subject.  Sheepherder with Akbash's who handle encounters with wolves and bear in Wyoming.  I'd head the other way if I see big white dogs in the area I'm hiking or riding in.  They always "ready."

Image result for akbash dogs

If you've done any mtb'ng in Wyoming or other sheepherding areas it's a good idea to understand how these guardian dogs react to strangers on bikes.  Dangerous but as working dogs they have a job to do and you better hope you can outrace them over the hill.  Had one freaky encounter with  two German Shepherds and a Mastiff that we got away from but scared the hell out of us. 

No sense getting pissed./calling the sheriff about dogs loose patrolling frontage on public roads in Wyoming.  They got bigger problems if they don't have tough dogs working to haze away predators.

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Well, yes and no. The vast majority of fatal mailings are pits. Were they bred to maul people? Well, no. No more than boxers, rotties, shepards, dobermans or any other "well equipped" canine.......ever wonder why 40 years ago there was not this fascination with pits and how they were not killing everyone they came in contact with? When I was growing up, the big "boogy man" dog was dobermans. Dangerous killers. Now? I believe the reason is the pit became the gotta have bad ass gangsta dog in popular culture. That caused lots more pits in circulation. Volume + idiots + capability = increase in frequency of serious/fatal encounters. Eliminate pits and the stupidity will simply shift, not stop.

Correlation is not causation.

Do I avoid pits when walking my dog and will cross the street to avoid contact....heck yes......but I do that with all the large breed powerful dogs I encounter unless I know the dog and owner.

I've known some pretty sweet pits..................

Have a Pyrenees and a Mix that Looks a bit like a pit, but is way faster and smaller, no square head etc, looks a hell of alot like this. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiwj4fZoJfYAhVJ3WMKHVA1DBMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedodo.com%2Fbanning-breed-specific-legisla-425987533.html&psig=AOvVaw19ekC6LqrGf9y6NSDqGHzK&ust=1513813442295412

Anyway, That dog will not harm a fly, the Pyrenees, well, she is a big fricking marshmellow unless she is on a leash.  We rescued both, little one as a puppy, big one at about 4 yrs old.  Working on the leash aggression thing since we got her about 5 yrs ago.  But the Pyrenees, I would not want to be coming up to someones goat farm in the dark when she was around The breeding is strong in that one.  She climbs 6' fences like a damn monkey.  Hooks back feet in and literally climbs.  She also perches.  She will jump on the deck railing and perch there like a damn bird, checking out shit in the park.  Now this is a 65+ lb dog doing this.  Think she took on a coyote a couple yrs ago when she got out.  Haven't had coyotes out back since.  :ph34r:

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31 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Have a Pyrenees and a Mix that Looks a bit like a pit, but is way faster and smaller, no square head etc, looks a hell of alot like this. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiwj4fZoJfYAhVJ3WMKHVA1DBMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedodo.com%2Fbanning-breed-specific-legisla-425987533.html&psig=AOvVaw19ekC6LqrGf9y6NSDqGHzK&ust=1513813442295412

Anyway, That dog will not harm a fly, the Pyrenees, well, she is a big fricking marshmellow unless she is on a leash.  We rescued both, little one as a puppy, big one at about 4 yrs old.  Working on the leash aggression thing since we got her about 5 yrs ago.  But the Pyrenees, I would not want to be coming up to someones goat farm in the dark when she was around The breeding is strong in that one.  She climbs 6' fences like a damn monkey.  Hooks back feet in and literally climbs.  She also perches.  She will jump on the deck railing and perch there like a damn bird, checking out shit in the park.  Now this is a 65+ lb dog doing this.  Think she took on a coyote a couple yrs ago when she got out.  Haven't had coyotes out back since.  :ph34r:

:lol:

My 70 lb. boxer has similar traits. Friendly as hell with all people and most dogs. However....on the leash, people are still at the top of her happy list but not other dogs.......not at all. Can't figure out this leash aggression. I'm working on it, but its weird. She is extremely well trained...heel off the leash, perfect recall, down/stay, stay in the yard unless given the okay to leave...all good. Perfect dog...except when she meets another dog and she is on a leash. I mean I can control her even then no problem, she minds, but if I let her greet another dog and she is leashed.....look out!  And....fences? Hah!! With a run she can get over a 8' fence with hardly any effort at all. 

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31 minutes ago, shaggy said:

Have a Pyrenees and a Mix that Looks a bit like a pit, but is way faster and smaller, no square head etc, looks a hell of alot like this. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiwj4fZoJfYAhVJ3WMKHVA1DBMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedodo.com%2Fbanning-breed-specific-legisla-425987533.html&psig=AOvVaw19ekC6LqrGf9y6NSDqGHzK&ust=1513813442295412

Anyway, That dog will not harm a fly, the Pyrenees, well, she is a big fricking marshmellow unless she is on a leash.  We rescued both, little one as a puppy, big one at about 4 yrs old.  Working on the leash aggression thing since we got her about 5 yrs ago.  But the Pyrenees, I would not want to be coming up to someones goat farm in the dark when she was around The breeding is strong in that one.  She climbs 6' fences like a damn monkey.  Hooks back feet in and literally climbs.  She also perches.  She will jump on the deck railing and perch there like a damn bird, checking out shit in the park.  Now this is a 65+ lb dog doing this.  Think she took on a coyote a couple yrs ago when she got out.  Haven't had coyotes out back since.  :ph34r:

Had a rescue Newfie/Pyrenees mix named Issac. With me he was a gentle lamb. In the car with my wife, anybody, and everybody was a deadly enemy. He weighed 160. My wife tops out at 100 soaking wet.

 He was 6 when we got him (Owners divorced, moved to apts, etc.). Eventually we found him a home in Vermont with sheep to guard. He was very happy. (Still is at age 14 as of this past summer)

 

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Neighbor across the street nearly lost his hand playing with his Pyrenees.  She over lunged for the fetch ball and clomped down on his wrist.  Much blood and hell to follow.

Extraordinary animals.  Fierce yet sweet/kindly to their family. 

She came as advertised:  do not come near her yard.  She would announce herself by standing up at the fence - stood about 6 feet high.

Busy neighborhood - barked endlessly.   Not so good on that score.   

 

Image result for great pyrenees

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8 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Got grabbed on the wrist by Pit/Mastiff mix.  No blood, hurt like hand caught in vise.  Customer all upset, owner (visiting son) all over the place apologizing.  Told them this will happen again etc, etc.  Dog inside when I come now.

Thanksgiving:  after playing with great-grandson in front of 20+ family , the dog goes after the 6 y.o. when kid simply ran by the dog.   Chaos, kid to ER, stitches and some trauma  counseling etc.

Dog is old, schitzy -and @ 90 # too much to handle when it flips out.

People keep this old bull around and they’re looking to get smacked down in court.

Dog bites a kid, it should be put down.  If that isn't a rule already, it should be.  Friends of ours had a dog that bit a kid on the ankle.  It will not have that opportunity again.  

Disclosure:  I own a dog declared vicious in our community due to an incident with a tiny dog that barked in her face and may have nipped her on the nose.  If my dog bit a child, she would be put down immediately.

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6 hours ago, Point Break said:

:lol:

My 70 lb. boxer has similar traits. Friendly as hell with all people and most dogs. However....on the leash, people are still at the top of her happy list but not other dogs.......not at all. Can't figure out this leash aggression. I'm working on it, but its weird. She is extremely well trained...heel off the leash, perfect recall, down/stay, stay in the yard unless given the okay to leave...all good. Perfect dog...except when she meets another dog and she is on a leash. I mean I can control her even then no problem, she minds, but if I let her greet another dog and she is leashed.....look out!  And....fences? Hah!! With a run she can get over a 8' fence with hardly any effort at all. 

Interesting..Boo's pretty much the same...Loves people .

We've have her on prozac for the last year, didn't make any difference to the dog agro...and now we are gradually reducing the dose.

Oddly, she's getting a bit better.

She escaped the yard yesterday...I found her happily wandering around "talking" to people at the tram stop. "What a lovely dog" general comments. I don't know what would have happened if another dog walked passed..But how does one test if its the leash that's the problem? Let them loose in the park with a muzzle?

BTW..Boo is apparently a lion hunting dog..mostly Rhodesian Ridgeback. :D

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There are few bad dogs; mostly just dogs that owners wreck somehow.  My dad gave me the one truth of dogs when I was probably 6.  "Dogs are great.  The first thing though, is to be smarter than the dog."  You need to know what you're doing.  Here's the key graf from that story:

Sgt. Mike Blackwood added that the formerly indoor dogs were a "little bit neglected towards the end of this" in that Stephens left them in an outdoor kennel at her father's place, visiting them once every day or so, and they became more isolated.

The method to turn an average pitbull into a fighting dog involves isolating it from human contact, ignoring it, leaving it outside or locked in a closet.  In addition, beat it a few times, make feeding irregular, and you will have a mean ass fighting dog.  It isn't the dog's fault; this treatment predictably expresses the fighting genes we humans bred into these breeds.  This woman did most of the things it takes to create a super aggressive fighting dog, and if maybe there were a few kicks from the old man, every ingredient in the recipe would be present.  It's cruel to say, but she had it coming.  If she couldn't take care of them in a domestic situation, she needed to give them up for adoption.  Working and fighting breeds are wonderful dogs but if you don't have the knowledge, time and temperament, you shouldn't own one. 

Full disclosure: my dad's father, in addition to being a bit of moonshiner and ruffian, bred fighting breeds in his spare time, specializing in the American Bull Terrier.  Dad was a masterful handler of difficult dogs and quite gentle with them, but he didn't talk about his father and those dogs of his very much or where he formed his observations of dog behavior and how to handle them.  This leaves me with some questions about granddad. I'd feel better about that if he'd raised a suspicious number of nasty roosters...  

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8 hours ago, dash34 said:

Dog bites a kid, it should be put down.  If that isn't a rule already, it should be.  Friends of ours had a dog that bit a kid on the ankle.  It will not have that opportunity again.  

Disclosure:  I own a dog declared vicious in our community due to an incident with a tiny dog that barked in her face and may have nipped her on the nose.  If my dog bit a child, she would be put down immediately.

Really.  We all gotta face the music with dogs.  In packs some old behaviors crop up and things can go south in a hurry.  We got 8 dogs now (4 new pups).  The Lab is biggest, the rest midsize.  Everyone plays it right or there’s consequences.  Can’t let anyone of them start acting out.

G/f had to put down two of her dogs who wasted some goats.  Sucks but that’s how it goes.

That dog that bit me (& owner) are “on vacation” thinking it over.

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17 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

There are few bad dogs; mostly just dogs that owners wreck somehow.  My dad gave me the one truth of dogs when I was probably 6.  "Dogs are great.  The first thing though, is to be smarter than the dog."  You need to know what you're doing.  Here's the key graf from that story:

Sgt. Mike Blackwood added that the formerly indoor dogs were a "little bit neglected towards the end of this" in that Stephens left them in an outdoor kennel at her father's place, visiting them once every day or so, and they became more isolated.

The method to turn an average pitbull into a fighting dog involves isolating it from human contact, ignoring it, leaving it outside or locked in a closet.  In addition, beat it a few times, make feeding irregular, and you will have a mean ass fighting dog.  It isn't the dog's fault; this treatment predictably expresses the fighting genes we humans bred into these breeds.  This woman did most of the things it takes to create a super aggressive fighting dog, and if maybe there were a few kicks from the old man, every ingredient in the recipe would be present.  It's cruel to say, but she had it coming.  If she couldn't take care of them in a domestic situation, she needed to give them up for adoption.  Working and fighting breeds are wonderful dogs but if you don't have the knowledge, time and temperament, you shouldn't own one. 

Full disclosure: my dad's father, in addition to being a bit of moonshiner and ruffian, bred fighting breeds in his spare time, specializing in the American Bull Terrier.  Dad was a masterful handler of difficult dogs and quite gentle with them, but he didn't talk about his father and those dogs of his very much or where he formed his observations of dog behavior and how to handle them.  This leaves me with some questions about granddad. I'd feel better about that if he'd raised a suspicious number of nasty roosters...  

I'm right there with you except for the fact that there's no way to confine the damage from a dog that's been turned strictly to the owner who turned it. 

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Interesting..Boo's pretty much the same...Loves people .

We've have her on prozac for the last year, didn't make any difference to the dog agro...and now we are gradually reducing the dose.

Oddly, she's getting a bit better.

She escaped the yard yesterday...I found her happily wandering around "talking" to people at the tram stop. "What a lovely dog" general comments. I don't know what would have happened if another dog walked passed..But how does one test if its the leash that's the problem? Let them loose in the park with a muzzle?

BTW..Boo is apparently a lion hunting dog..mostly Rhodesian Ridgeback. :D

Dog park comes to mind...

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3 hours ago, shaggy said:

Dog park comes to mind...

Trouble with that is most of the other dogs are pampered fluffballs with somewhat neurotic owners.

Off leash, they think they are attack dogs:rolleyes:..Big dogs in the city get a hard time.

Might try a  quiet beach on one of those long leads, I sometimes take her out to the dog park late at night on one of those and let her wander at will with me trailig behind, she loves her "wander walks"

Boo's had 9 years of neglectful parents, she's hard to train and was quite neuritic..2 years of a loving family helps but she's the neediest dog I've ever known.

Back on topic, it looks like those two dogs had been "loved" then left tied up and unfed in later months..no food, no exercise and a tiny owner that was no longer their "master"

I can envisage her getting them over exited on a rare walk and unable to regain control in a game that got out of hand. 

Horrible.

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Trouble with that is most of the other dogs are pampered fluffballs with somewhat neurotic owners.

Off leash, they think they are attack dogs:rolleyes:..Big dogs in the city get a hard time.

Might try a  quiet beach on one of those long leads, I sometimes take her out to the dog park late at night on one of those and let her wander at will with me trailig behind, she loves her "wander walks"

Boo's had 9 years of neglectful parents, she's hard to train and was quite neuritic..2 years of a loving family helps but she's the neediest dog I've ever known.

Back on topic, it looks like those two dogs had been "loved" then left tied up and unfed in later months..no food, no exercise and a tiny owner that was no longer their "master"

I can envisage her getting them over exited on a rare walk and unable to regain control in a game that got out of hand. 

Horrible.

You need to start with very reliable adherence to at least 3 basic commands. Sit, Stay, and especially the Recall with whatever word you choose (Here, Come, Return etc. I use "Here" for a variety of reasons - I did have a buddy who used "Hey Stupid".....it was pretty funny). When you have the ability to exercise those commands with very reliable response, you can safely experiment in almost any setting you'd like. Without those behaviors nailed down, you're kinda rolling the dice...................I also would generally add a reliable "drop it" to the list of essential dog commands but that is more for the safety of an inquisitive pooch who is inclined to orally "test" things that are dangerous but smell really interesting......but that is not essential for interacting with other dogs. I do think it is essential for off leash play.

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10 hours ago, blunderfull said:

...  In packs some old behaviors crop up and things can go south in a hurry.  ...

When I was an older teenager I had a Samoyed crossed with Golden Lab. Big commotion in the back yard and there was a pack of 4 dogs out there having a go at my dog.  I came out thinking I could scare them away and they came after me.  

I had to beat a hasty retreat back into the house for a weapon.   I came back with a broom.  That got rid of them.  

Scary to think what would have happened if a child had been in the back yard at the time.  Never saw the pack again.

I was chased on a bike in Sri Lanka by a nasty pack a few years back - barely got away.  Dogs in packs are dangerous.

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Dogs are cowardly fuckers. I've noticed that loose Golden Retrievers will attack a leashed dog - it's happened several times to us - just that one breed.

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2 hours ago, Point Break said:

You need to start with very reliable adherence to at least 3 basic commands. Sit, Stay, and especially the Recall with whatever word you choose (Here, Come, Return etc. I use "Here" for a variety of reasons

The very. Very best word I've used is 'HUP!' As in, Bella, HUP! Nothing sounds like it. You can say it extremely loud. It means "Get your ass back to me right the fuck now."

Trained on a long line with treats and lots of praise, your dog will ALWAYS respond to it. I mean always. I've had dogs cut on me but that word is one that only gets pulled out when I'm saying I want you next to me right this instant.

Try saying that word. You'll be amazed how sharp and loud it is and like I said, nothing else sounds like it. I use the the same word with cattle, but much more softly and more of a Heyup sound. Dogs do better with a sharp command so they know you mean it. Cattle are all, "Well, the 2 legged moron wants us to go over there. There's probably food involved."

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29 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

 Cattle are all, "Well, the 2 legged moron wants us to go over there. There's probably food involved."

:lol:

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5 hours ago, Point Break said:

You need to start with very reliable adherence to at least 3 basic commands. Sit, Stay, and especially the Recall with whatever word you choose (Here, Come, Return etc. I use "Here" for a variety of reasons - I did have a buddy who used "Hey Stupid".....it was pretty funny). When you have the ability to exercise those commands with very reliable response, you can safely experiment in almost any setting you'd like. Without those behaviors nailed down, you're kinda rolling the dice...................I also would generally add a reliable "drop it" to the list of essential dog commands but that is more for the safety of an inquisitive pooch who is inclined to orally "test" things that are dangerous but smell really interesting......but that is not essential for interacting with other dogs. I do think it is essential for off leash play.

Boo's the least trainable dog I've ever encountered..we spent months, daily, trying to do the sit, stay, come thing..sit at lights etc..she has the attention span of a gnat..she has no idea why she's suddenly told to sit at the lights..I would have thought the clicking (for sight impaired) would have eventually caught her attention..we gave up..so no..we won't let her off the leash..You can smear a ball with peanut butter and tell her to fetch it..she'll wander up and lick it, then wander off again. Sometimes I wonder if she's deaf in lower registers.

She'll do as she's told if she thinks she's in trouble at home, but I wouldn't ever trust her with a serious distraction around...like another dog.

9 years of no training at all and a stubborn disposition..(also..I don't think she's terribly bright..)

But we love her anyway :)

she does have excellent bite control, will take a tiny piece of treat from my hand gently when told "gently"..so no worries about accidental bites.

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28 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Boo's the least trainable dog I've ever encountered..we spent months, daily, trying to do the sit, stay, come thing..sit at lights etc..she has the attention span of a gnat..she has no idea why she's suddenly told to sit at the lights..I would have thought the clicking (for sight impaired) would have eventually caught her attention..we gave up..so no..we won't let her off the leash..You can smear a ball with peanut butter and tell her to fetch it..she'll wander up and lick it, then wander off again. Sometimes I wonder if she's deaf in lower registers.

She'll do as she's told if she thinks she's in trouble at home, but I wouldn't ever trust her with a serious distraction around...like another dog.

9 years of no training at all and a stubborn disposition..(also..I don't think she's terribly bright..)

But we love her anyway :)

she does have excellent bite control, will take a tiny piece of treat from my hand gently when told "gently"..so no worries about accidental bites.

Sounds like a Shar Pei.

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My pit mix shows only one kind of undesirable aggression.

She's fine when a vehicle arrives. Will approach it and see if the occupant is interested in throwing her ball. Pretty much ignores anyone who won't.

But if a vehicle tries to leave, she will viciously attack the tires. About the only thing that will stop her is me, and only if I'm holding a ball or frisbee.

So she has pretty well trained me that departures mean play time.

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Nah, she's a good looking dog :D But dim as a box of wet matches.

grrr....we had a Basenji that was both beautiful and stubborn to the point of us having to bring in a trainer.....

kanga.jpg

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at age 3 i was bit in my face (near the corner of my mouth) by a mix of fox/street-dog that my grandma used to own. nothing ever happened to the dog, but i never came near it again for the next 10 years it was alive. and it took me a long time to forgive my grandma for not doing anything.

was it me and my son/grandson, the dog would have gone to dog's heaven imediately.

but that fine lady seemed to care more about her dogs than their grandkids.

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11 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Boo's the least trainable dog I've ever encountered..we spent months, daily, trying to do the sit, stay, come thing..sit at lights etc..she has the attention span of a gnat..she has no idea why she's suddenly told to sit at the lights..I would have thought the clicking (for sight impaired) would have eventually caught her attention..we gave up..so no..we won't let her off the leash..You can smear a ball with peanut butter and tell her to fetch it..she'll wander up and lick it, then wander off again. Sometimes I wonder if she's deaf in lower registers.

She'll do as she's told if she thinks she's in trouble at home, but I wouldn't ever trust her with a serious distraction around...like another dog.

9 years of no training at all and a stubborn disposition..(also..I don't think she's terribly bright..)

But we love her anyway :)

she does have excellent bite control, will take a tiny piece of treat from my hand gently when told "gently"..so no worries about accidental bites.

I’d say any inclinations to “experiment” with off leash friendliness are a bad idea then. Unless you are willing to engage a trainer to assess whether your techniques need to be adjusted or agree the dog is “untrainable” then you have what you have.

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11 hours ago, Point Break said:

I’d say any inclinations to “experiment” with off leash friendliness are a bad idea then. Unless you are willing to engage a trainer to assess whether your techniques need to be adjusted or agree the dog is “untrainable” then you have what you have.

agreed..she stays on leash..but sometimes a long one and a muzzle might give her a little fun when there's not much likelihood of meeting an off leash animal. 

I've had so many different opinions from Trainers, Vets and people who think they are able to psycho analyze dogs..we take the "err on the side of safety" option.

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Back to the OP.

https://www.livescience.com/61241-how-often-do-dogs-maul-owners.html

Redirected aggression

But in general, for dogs to act aggressively, there needs to be some kind of external "trigger," Polsky said. One possibility is that, while Stephens was walking the dogs, something out of the ordinary happened; for instance, the dogs sensed "prey," like a rabbit or squirrel, and tried to go after it. If Stephens interfered with the dogs while they were going after prey, they may have redirected their aggression toward Stephens, Polsky said. "The dogs may have been thwarted in doing something, got frustrated and turned around and attacked the owner," Polsky told Live Science.

Berman added that it's possible Stephens' dogs were not fed well, because dogs don't typically try to eat a human body after an attack, unless they haven't been getting enough food.

Officials noted that lately, Stephens' dogs had been living with her father, who kept the dogs in a kennel outside; and the animals had little human contact besides occasional visits from Stephens.

Pack animals

Rather than both dogs attacking Stephens at once, it's more likely that one dog initiated the attack, and the other joined in, Polsky said. It's also possible that the dogs had shown signs of hostility before, but these signs were overlooked, he said.

There are about 5 million dog-bite cases annually in the U.S., Polsky estimated. Around 30 to 40 people die each year from their injuries, and an estimated 100,000 are injured badly enough to require plastic surgery or extensive suturing, according to Polsky.

Most fatal dog attacks involve pit bulls. (Officials identified Stephens' dogs as pit bulls.)

But Polsky stressed that this doesn't mean all pit bulls are inherently aggressive. Some pit bulls have been bred for fighting or intimidation, and so they may have more aggressive traits. But studies show that Chihuahuas and Jack Russell terriers are actually the most aggressive breeds, but their size and physical limitations prevent them from killing people, Polsky said.

"Unfortunately, an incident like this just reinforces people's beliefs," that all pit bulls are dangerous, Polsky said. "It's just not fair. I come across a lot of pit bull dogs that are just the sweetest dogs in the world," he said.

There are just some things that dogs resent being parted from. The last time Boo growled at me, I was telling her to drop a pat of butter she's pinched off the kitchen bench..I won...she sulked outside...she loves butter.

Looks like for some reason she left her dog's with Dad..who failed to feed them..sad dad.

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Dogs need regular reminders of who is the boss.  Is she gets uppity I will take mine and push her slowly but firmly down on the ground by the neck, just like I watched her mother do to discipline her when she was a puppy.  She submits every time because she knows what is coming.  I just hold her there for a minute or two then let her up.  She listens after that.  We also trained her to relax and lie still supported on her back between our legs - we use this when she needs medical attention to a paw or leg.

She tried to become the alpha over our youngest son when he was little.  We taught him to do the same thing and she stopped competing with him.

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9 hours ago, dash34 said:

Dogs need regular reminders of who is the boss.  Is she gets uppity I will take mine and push her slowly but firmly down on the ground by the neck, just like I watched her mother do to discipline her when she was a puppy.  She submits every time because she knows what is coming.  I just hold her there for a minute or two then let her up.  She listens after that.  We also trained her to relax and lie still supported on her back between our legs - we use this when she needs medical attention to a paw or leg.

She tried to become the alpha over our youngest son when he was little.  We taught him to do the same thing and she stopped competing with him.

Absolutely correct. Dogs, especially males, have a genetic drive to try to be the alpha dog but are happiest when they are kept clearly in their place in the family pecking order.

I once heard a description of dog & cat psychology that I thought made sense - cats perceive you as their mother while dogs perceive you as part of the pack so you need to ensure they see you as the alpha dog..

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Absolutely correct. Dogs, especially males, have a genetic drive to try to be the alpha dog but are happiest when they are kept clearly in their place in the family pecking order.

I once heard a description of dog & cat psychology that I thought made sense - cats perceive you as their mother while dogs perceive you as part of the pack so you need to ensure they see you as the alpha dog..

Contemporary thought is moving rapidly away from that notion. It is at best now a controversial theory in canine training. 

http://respectyourdog.com/read/what-alpha-rolling-is-really-doing-to-your-dog

https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/new_study_finds_popular_alpha_dog_training_techniques_can_cause_more_harm_t/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

Quote

A 2009 study[citation needed]by the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences showed that methods of handling that relied on dominance theory actually provoked aggressive behavior in dogs with no previous known history of aggression.

 

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Looks like garbage science, unfortunately.  The "new study" had a sample size of 140.  That's it, 140 surveys.  All from one clinic.  Peer-reviewed?  Random sample?  Sorry, that ain't science.  If the main thesis in this was credible, dogs who have been alpha rolled would no longer growl when they feel threatened.  I can assure you my dog still growls.

Someone should read the article to mother dogs, who regularly use the alpha roll technique on their puppies when they exhibit unwanted behaviour.

These days, you can find someone with an opinion on either side of any issue.  

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Well, I recognize that some folks will hang onto to those methods. I think there are better ways and most dog training is moving that way as well. Clearly your view is different. If you’re interested you can google dominance training a bit. Admittedly there are still some advocates but most of the mainstream training is moving away from that. None of our search training allows any dominance training and relies exclusively on reward/incentive training. I’m sure you treat your dog well and believe it best. Just offering a changing perspective. 

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Btw - although I have moved past dominance training, I did use it years ago as it was the popular theory  ie. Monks of New Skete and Milan being the most recognizable advocates. I still use corrections but they are verbal and ignoring which are very effective, and even some leash corrections. I use a martingale collar for that since I get the sound of the chain without the extreme  neck compression and strain. Every once in a while I also have to give her a “poke” with two fingers in the side of head or neck to break her focused “spin-up” cycle when I see it starting. Milan advicates that and I find it works well, but it’s just a light tap/poke that distracts her and allows me to reassert control. But I’ve decided that distractions and those gentle corrections combined with mostly positive/reward interactions are excellent methods and I feel better about my relationship with her. It’s more.......”natural” and comfortable to me. I think it a vastly better approach than the way I used to do it as advocated by the Monks and Milan and their adherents. I still remember pinning with an alpha roll one of my dogs....about 4 dogs ago. She hated it and although it “worked”.....it was not a relationship building moment between us.

YMMV

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Well, I recognize that some folks will hang onto to those methods. I think there are better ways and most dog training is moving that way as well. Clearly your view is different. If you’re interested you can google dominance training a bit. Admittedly there are still some advocates but most of the mainstream training is moving away from that. None of our search training allows any dominance training and relies exclusively on reward/incentive training. I’m sure you treat your dog well and believe it best. Just offering a changing perspective. 

We used alpha roll more when she was a very young dog.  When we are training her these days it is all about distraction and reward.  She is scared to death of small dogs, one of whom bit her.  The fear she developed from that incident led to a serious incident with another small dog later.  To avoid issues now, if a small dog comes along, we pull her off the trail, insist on eye contact and reward when we get it.  She mostly ignores small dogs now, because she knows she is going to get a treat.  She has never had any issues with people including children.  I agree that alpha roll would never have solved that problem, because her behaviour was rooted in fear, not in the desire to be dominant.

However, there is a certain type of behaviour we get from her where she seems to be trying to be dominant.  That's when she gets the roll.  It is very rare now at seven years old.  She has settled into her place in the family and is a very relaxed, extremely fit dog.  She gets off-leash time in a local recreation area almost every day and she and I do epic hikes whenever time and weather permit.

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2 hours ago, Point Break said:

Well, I recognize that some folks will hang onto to those methods. I think there are better ways and most dog training is moving that way as well. Clearly your view is different. If you’re interested you can google dominance training a bit. Admittedly there are still some advocates but most of the mainstream training is moving away from that. None of our search training allows any dominance training and relies exclusively on reward/incentive training. I’m sure you treat your dog well and believe it best. Just offering a changing perspective. 

assuming dogs like people have different temperaments, I don't think a one size fits all training regime works.

Some dogs are naturally more timid than others, some dogs are more laid back than others and naturally some dogs are more stubborn or bossy than others..When I got Boo, we took another dog out for a trial walk first..it was obviously used to bossing cattle around..but it had a look in its eye that was kind of creepy like it was stalking..It attacked the the other dogs when the kennel maid tried to put it back..and had a go at her when she tried to get it under control..I can see a dog like that waiting for a opportunity no matter how often you play "alpha dog" with it.

OTOH..most dogs respond to simple kindness and a firm voice. 

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I own 2 dogs of one of the most vicious breeds known to man, the fearsome Labrador Retriever.  I have always used my voice to control them and when they need correction I pitch it in a way that they understand that I mean business.  I can stop them dead in their tracks with it. It was also quite effective when I was raising my daughter.  It had the same effect on her as with my dogs.  She refers to it as 'the Voice" and says she still has occasional dreams where I use 'The Voice' on her.   I have never used physical means to discipline my daughter or my dogs.  YMMV.

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1 hour ago, soak_ed said:

I own 2 dogs of one of the most vicious breeds known to man, the fearsome Labrador Retriever.  I have always used my voice to control them and when they need correction I pitch it in a way that they understand that I mean business.  I can stop them dead in their tracks with it. It was also quite effective when I was raising my daughter.  It had the same effect on her as with my dogs.  She refers to it as 'the Voice" and says she still has occasional dreams where I use 'The Voice' on her.   I have never used physical means to discipline my daughter or my dogs.  YMMV.

I mentioned up thread a friend early 70's with 2 pit bulls ....I didn't want to bore with personal info, but when raising my two boys,  I used the same authoritarian tone, consistent use in situations, clear , quick and certain correction , that I observed my friend addressing  his dogs.  Neither boy ever had a temper tantrum or whined about this or that.

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Only had Newfies when the kids were young.  Never an issue even with neighborhood kids all over the place.  If they sensed a threat they would just stand between the kid and the threat. If not for all the drool and needing to get home to let them out I would still have them.  Happily dogless at this point.

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2 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Only had Newfies when the kids were young.  Never an issue even with neighborhood kids all over the place.  If they sensed a threat they would just stand between the kid and the threat. If not for all the drool and needing to get home to let them out I would still have them.  Happily dogless at this point.

We had a Sheltie when I was a kid that performed the same function.  I think he thought my brother and I were just 2 legged sheep, he took his responsibility very seriously.   He may have been small but he was the alpha male of the entire neighborhood full of dogs, he earned that role, he was a tough SOB. He didn't drool but he did shed a bit, much to my mother's chagrin.  Back then most of the neighborhood dogs were free range, all my father had to do was whistle loudly and the dog would come running no matter where he was.  He finally bit off more than he could chew, he was killed in a dog fight by a  non-neighborhood dog that probably outweighed him by 60 pounds or so.  Unfortunately I witnessed the whole thing, but at 9 years old, I wasn't going to intervene.  I will never forget the yelp he made before he fell dead on the ground.  

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8 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

assuming dogs like people have different temperaments, I don't think a one size fits all training regime works.

Some dogs are naturally more timid than others, some dogs are more laid back than others and naturally some dogs are more stubborn or bossy than others..When I got Boo, we took another dog out for a trial walk first..it was obviously used to bossing cattle around..but it had a look in its eye that was kind of creepy like it was stalking..It attacked the the other dogs when the kennel maid tried to put it back..and had a go at her when she tried to get it under control..I can see a dog like that waiting for a opportunity no matter how often you play "alpha dog" with it.

OTOH..most dogs respond to simple kindness and a firm voice. 

Says the person who self admittedly has a dog she cannot train. 

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2 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Only had Newfies when the kids were young.  Never an issue even with neighborhood kids all over the place.  If they sensed a threat they would just stand between the kid and the threat. If not for all the drool and needing to get home to let them out I would still have them.  Happily dogless at this point.

This one may be my last. They are a lot of work....at least mine is. I enjoy her immensely but from time to time think being unencumbered would be nice, especially for traveling etc. Mrs PB was pretty insistent on this last one, said she wanted to ensure I had a companion....so I do.

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1 hour ago, soak_ed said:

We had a Sheltie when I was a kid that performed the same function.  I think he thought my brother and I were just 2 legged sheep, he took his responsibility very seriously.   He may have been small but he was the alpha male of the entire neighborhood full of dogs, he earned that role, he was a tough SOB. He didn't drool but he did shed a bit, much to my mother's chagrin.  Back then most of the neighborhood dogs were free range, all my father had to do was whistle loudly and the dog would come running no matter where he was.  He finally bit off more than he could chew, he was killed in a dog fight by a  non-neighborhood dog that probably outweighed him by 60 pounds or so.  Unfortunately I witnessed the whole thing, but at 9 years old, I wasn't going to intervene.  I will never forget the yelp he made before he fell dead on the ground.  

Well, that last line was a kick in the nuts. Sorry man. A dog yelping in actual pain is really hard to hear, thankfully the only times I heard it was because my dog did something stupid but he never seemed to have any lasting pain from it. 

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12 hours ago, Point Break said:

Very interesting links PB, thanks.  I am ashamed to realize that the way I learned to train field retrievers back in the 60's was purely fear based.  I'm sure if those dogs had been aggressive there would have been oceans of blood spilt but they were retrievers after all (motto: what can I get for you?) so they were mostly ok with kids and strangers.  There were a few who had to be watched pretty carefully though, and were unsuitable for anything other than fieldwork.  I wonder now how much of that was due to the manner in which they were trained

I find as I get older, I train my dogs with a lot more positive reinforcement but I'm still somewhat wedded to the old ways when it comes to the basics you talked about upthread. the come, sit, stay, heel, down, off and leave it, which are minimums in our house.   For the last three the negative reinforcement is/was a pinch or martingale collar, harsh words, a bit of manhandling by the scruff of the neck and avoidance (which, to my Labs, is the worst punishment possible) but for the original oversized , high energy  bonehead of a Lab, it was a 3 year wrestling match to determine who was going to be calling the shots.  He was a great dog, but not a particularly good one. and certainly not an aggressive one, or he would have bitten me for sure.  The only time he growled at me was subsequent to a discussion we had about running into the street, which a friend witnessing the debate compared to watching two guys getting in a fight, and wound up with me tossing him into the house, picking up the phone and making the appointment for the removal of a distal appendage.

I too put a lot of faith in the Monks of New Skete.  I really like the idea of being your dog's best friend and find that with most dogs persuasion works better than force.  It is going to be difficult for me to abandon the idea of training my dogs to do as I ask them to, simply because that's what I asked, not what they were willing to do in response to my request.  Like you, I may be on my last dog, who is a prototypical 10 month old Lab bitch - a digger,  a chewer, the light of my life - who was like trying to walk a balloon until I put the pinch collar on her, which she figured out in about 5 seconds and never tested again.  I wonder who would be harder to retrain, me or the dogs?

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33 minutes ago, Nettles said:

I wonder who would be harder to retrain, me or the dogs?

:lol: I struggle with that as well. My 70 lb boxer (the last now of 6 boxers over my life) is the most stubborn and headstrong of all my prior boxers. All of my dogs have been very well trained as is this one but occasionally her stubborn streak shows up (usually around other dogs while leashed) and the martingale and two finger poke becomes necessary. I had visions of her becoming certified as a "therapy dog" in order to visit the hospitalized vets at our local VA hospital (I only live a few miles from a big one) with her. The VA requires a national certification following testing by a recognized professional trainer....which is how I stumbled across the shift in thinking. That trainer has since become a family friend and in fact is our dog sitter when we go out of town. He loves her almost as much as we do. But even he suggested that the "pure" reward only training regimen is going a bit overboard and he includes gentle corrections as I mentioned, however he is a strong critic of the old "alpha dog" dominance training and provided me a variety of reading materials to support that shift. It was hard for me to accept as I was a fan of the Monks and Milan and used the dominance training techniques with my first dogs. However, even before that exposure, I found I was drifting away from the dominance techniques simply because I didn't like the response from the dog, and hadn't alpha rolled one for several dogs already. 

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Shock collars work.  Last resort use on a neighbors insane, aggressive ‘huahua.  He got in line about 3-4 shocks along the way.

G/f told me she could sort him out with “work” then comes out of his house bleeding from the arm.  “He’s a mess - getting a collar.”

Wimpy owner reluctant at first but shortly afterwards thanked g/f for allowing them to at last go to Dog Beach w/o incidents.

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On the control thing, shock collars ???

Dunno how much your local councils work with you re animal managegment, some of ours will lend you a citrus spray collar, you just pay a refundable deposit and take it back when the problem is fixed..works for unwanted barking.

Dogs really don't like it but less cruel than a spike collar or shock collar.

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

On the control thing, shock collars ???

Dunno how much your local councils work with you re animal managegment, some of ours will lend you a citrus spray collar, you just pay a refundable deposit and take it back when the problem is fixed..works for unwanted barking.

Dogs really don't like it but less cruel than a spike collar or shock collar.

Shock collar was a last effort to control an old dog that had lived with two mentally ill people.   House was full of dogshit, tears in furniture etc.  Sorry stuff.

We moved in  next door and let the four girls wander over to introduce themselves.  The crazy little 'Huahua lunged at the Lab and became hysterical.   Barked endlessly and our normally friendly, assertive girls just ignored him and moved around/away from 

G/f eventually worked him into the pack and took him on walks in the canyon.  Changes started.   In particular he stopped attacking our Lab.   Back at his house he continued his reign of terror.   Little f'er ruled the front of house and owner was unable to walk him by himself since he couldn't manage the dog and avoid fights.   The crazy little dog would go ballistic at the sight of big dogs.  Would run up to them and tangle.  Idiotic stuff.

The collar on low power worked right away.  No barking - less tension around him.  Other dogs/people treated him better.  Best part of it:  owner could exercise with his dog and both of them benefited big time.

Would most people use a shock collar?  I doubt it.    But, in this extreme case, an old dog in an unstable home - what else short of putting him down could work?  The owners (mentally ill) were extremely attached to this crazy dog and refused to deal with it's problems.   Only thing that kept city from getting involved was the poor little guy was about 10# wet and hadn't mangled anyone.  G/f felt obligated to get him sorted out as best she could.  She loves dogs and gave this guy a few years of sanity.

 

Everybody just needs a friend:

Image result for daddy cesar millan's dog

 

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We use an Invisible Fence, so each of our dogs has a sort of a shock collar.

Even that has become kinder and gentler over the years. When we got our most recent dog, we needed a new collar. Learned that the new ones have a feature the old ones did not: vibrate. Dogs HATE it when something vibrates on their neck, it turns out.

We trained that dog to the fence just the same as the rest, except that unlike the rest, there was never a point where she got a shock. It was completely unnecessary. I've seen how dogs react to the little flags that warn them of the perimeter after being shocked. They don't want anything to do with them. The vibration got exactly the same response.

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Zapped myself once carrying an IF collar while chatting with a neighbor.  Not bad, was more a surprise than anything since it buzzes before it zaps.  Couldn't figure out what was buzzing 'til it zapped me.  Duh.

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3 minutes ago, NaptimeAgain said:

Zapped myself once carrying an IF collar while chatting with a neighbor.  Not bad, was more a surprise than anything since it buzzes before it zaps.  Couldn't figure out what was buzzing 'til it zapped me.  Duh.

Yea, the collar we used made a loud ‘crackling’ sound before zapping.   You adjust the zap down/up but sound stays same.

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2 hours ago, mike98gp said:

out of 10,000 species of dogs, tough justify pit ownership aside from protecting your tow yard in detroit... 

#ITSHAPPENEDAGAIN

Cultural thing.  Good luck changing that mindset.

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On 12/25/2017 at 6:10 AM, NaptimeAgain said:

Zapped myself once carrying an IF collar while chatting with a neighbor.  Not bad, was more a surprise than anything since it buzzes before it zaps.  Couldn't figure out what was buzzing 'til it zapped me.  Duh.

was it a loud chat? :D

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