Sign in to follow this  
Mark K

UFOs: Jeff, IB, need mil pilot-speak translation

Recommended Posts

 A more in depth look at the recent news of a 2004 incident wherein some supposedly sober squids spotted a UFO, some acronym translation would be helpful, but what I am really looking for is an opinion on if this sounds coherent and if it's coming from someone who knows what they are talking about, if ya got one. 

 https://fightersweep.com/1460/x-files-edition/

  I wondered because the author still thinks one should be tin-foiling one's head...and that's nowhere close to where the probes are inserted during "routine" physicals. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Almost midway through my Navy enlistment - this would have been 1973ish - I transferred to a tech school and after 3 months went out to the fleet on a destroyer as an FTM working on and operating a missile guidance radar (ANSPG-51C/D). One day we were sitting in the radar room at modified GQ Condition 3 so we maintained a watch on the ready fire control radar when CIC advised they were assigning us a potential target. We accepted the assignment, the guidance radar director (big parabolic dish) slewed to the bearing and we quickly and easily acquired the target. As near as we could tell it seemed to be in a hover.....which was very unusual for where we were......and we could tell that because the "range rate" readout was near zero. Range rate can be loosely understood as a measurement of speed but its actually instantaneous target speed relative to the ship so it really means a numerical value that represented the "rate" at which the range of the target changed relative to the ships position. The tracking component of the radar was a pulsed doppler radar which provided an "audio" feedback to us on the target. Often we could tell whether it was prop or jet and a few other things things by the audio return on the doppler. We got a clear audio return and it wasn't anything any of us had every heard before. The radar director had a camera attached so we could see what we were tracking if close enough. It was about 15 miles away but neither the camera or the bridge lookouts saw anything on that bearing. After a very short time, the range rate began to change rapidly and the target was now moving laterally generally parallel to our position but also moving slightly outbound and at the same low altitude. After about 30 more seconds, the target shot upwards so rapidly that the range rate readout pegged at 9999.99 and the director (the parabolic radar dish) trying to keep up and stay locked on the target went from almost level to hitting the upper elevation stops in about 2 seconds.....then the target was simply gone. We lost the target and the sweep search radar from CIC also said it was just gone and they no longer could see it either.

Everybody looked at each other and said "huh"...........we asked CIC if they saw that and the response was "saw what?".................we went about our business. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Point Break said:

Almost midway through my Navy enlistment - this would have been 1973ish - I transferred to a tech school and after 3 months went out to the fleet on a destroyer as an FTM working on and operating a missile guidance radar (ANSPG-51C/D). One day we were sitting in the radar room at modified GQ Condition 3 so we maintained a watch on the ready fire control radar when CIC advised they were assigning us a potential target. We accepted the assignment, the guidance radar director (big parabolic dish) slewed to the bearing and we quickly and easily acquired the target. As near as we could tell it seemed to be in a hover.....which was very unusual for where we were......and we could tell that because the "range rate" readout was near zero. Range rate can be loosely understood as a measurement of speed but its actually instantaneous target speed relative to the ship so it really means a numerical value that represented the "rate" at which the range of the target changed relative to the ships position. The tracking component of the radar was a pulsed doppler radar which provided an "audio" feedback to us on the target. Often we could tell whether it was prop or jet and a few other things things by the audio return on the doppler. We got a clear audio return and it wasn't anything any of us had every heard before. The radar director had a camera attached so we could see what we were tracking if close enough. It was about 15 miles away but neither the camera or the bridge lookouts saw anything on that bearing. After a very short time, the range rate began to change rapidly and the target was now moving laterally generally parallel to our position but also moving slightly outbound and at the same low altitude. After about 30 more seconds, the target shot upwards so rapidly that the range rate readout pegged at 9999.99 and the director (the parabolic radar dish) trying to keep up and stay locked on the target went from almost level to hitting the upper elevation stops in about 2 seconds.....then the target was simply gone. We lost the target and the sweep search radar from CIC also said it was just gone and they no longer could see it either.

Everybody looked at each other and said "huh"...........we asked CIC if they saw that and the response was "saw what?".................we went about our business. 

 Met a pilot once, said that he had to go through an interview with a board of three experienced captains as part of his hiring. One question they asked "What would you do if you saw a UFO?" 

 He said his answer was "It depends." 

  If he and his captain saw some weird lights? No. What's to report? On the other hand if they pulled alongside and every passenger in the cabin saw a bunch of little green men doing the hokey pokey through the thing's window then he would have to say something. 

 This was apparently satisfactory. Still, it makes me wonder. Why would experienced airline pilots be thinking about that? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still do not believe there are aliens visiting us. I cannot explain the episode......but the notion we are being secretly visited by super advanced creatures is just too implausible to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I still do not believe there are aliens visiting us. I cannot explain the episode......but the notion we are being secretly visited by super advanced creatures is just too implausible to me. 

I thick some our poesteng hearer!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

I thick some our poesteng hearer!

Aliens I will believe.

Super advanced I don't believe. Some of these people are Neanderthals with a haircut and an iPhone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

It’s the rack...

I thought it was was burning or drowning. Did witches get the rack too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Deliberately obtuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw the Space X rocket last night. It was definitely weird looking in a really cool way.

Aliens? I know they're out there. It just makes sense. Burning the energy to 'check us out'? I have a hard time swallowing that. Space is just too big for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mark K said:

 Met a pilot once, said that he had to go through an interview with a board of three experienced captains as part of his hiring. One question they asked "What would you do if you saw a UFO?" 

 He said his answer was "It depends." 

  If he and his captain saw some weird lights? No. What's to report? On the other hand if they pulled alongside and every passenger in the cabin saw a bunch of little green men doing the hokey pokey through the thing's window then he would have to say something. 

 This was apparently satisfactory. Still, it makes me wonder. Why would experienced airline pilots be thinking about that? 

 

The ones I know would be thinking about their jobs and how remaining silent is the best course if you wish to keep that job.

Ask one whether he thinks the center tank on a jetliner can spontaneously explode, resulting in a "zoom climb" that leads witnesses to believe they saw a rocket shooting up into the air. And good luck with that. As you know, I'm a fan of questions to which the answer is obvious, but which won't be answered. That's one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the OP. Just a normal discussion of location, how they approached the target and what sensors they attempts to use. Appears little to no radar return. Slight infrared (FLIR), questionable electronic (EA). Pretty much visual only. 

Modern fighters use multiple sensors, both active and passive) to generate a target track. Sounds like they were able to get a minimal track at least once and the target appeared to hold a 2D position but able to generate immediate and massive acceleration  to change altitude. 

What was it?  Who knows. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just great. First they send us a giant suppository, and now a giant Tic-Tac. I think the galaxy is trying to tell us something or they have grossly overestimated our size.

cigar-meteor.jpg

32138282952_b28635a8a7_b.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Raz'r said:

The alien invasion will be digital, if any of them care enough to bother.

The Russian and Chinese digital invasion is in full swing already....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Back to the OP. Just a normal discussion of location, how they approached the target and what sensors they attempts to use. Appears little to no radar return. Slight infrared (FLIR), questionable electronic (EA). Pretty much visual only. 

Modern fighters use multiple sensors, both active and passive) to generate a target track. Sounds like they were able to get a minimal track at least once and the target appeared to hold a 2D position but able to generate immediate and massive acceleration  to change altitude. 

What was it?  Who knows. 

I neglected to include full context. The article was in reference to this vid released by the Pentagon this week: 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Neighbour has some weird ideas. One of which is aliens have been visiting us for thousands of years and our DNA shows evidence of alien corruption. So, if we except that the earth is not unique and that life can exists elsewhere, maybe we are the aliens? After all, if we were, how would we know?

 

Also, he seems uninterested in this bridge I have for sale....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/23/2017 at 1:24 PM, Mark K said:

 A more in depth look at the recent news of a 2004 incident wherein some supposedly sober squids spotted a UFO, some acronym translation would be helpful, but what I am really looking for is an opinion on if this sounds coherent and if it's coming from someone who knows what they are talking about, if ya got one. 

 https://fightersweep.com/1460/x-files-edition/

  I wondered because the author still thinks one should be tin-foiling one's head...and that's nowhere close to where the probes are inserted during "routine" physicals. 

 

These are the acronyms from your link.

WSO - Weapons Systems Officer (aka backseater)

FLIR (pod) - Forward Looking Infrared.  A movable camera with both normal daytime color cameras as well as IR cameras.

APG-73 radar - New fangled fighter radar that can pick up two gnats fucking in mid air.

BFM - Basic Fighter Maneuvers (dogfighting)

HCMS - Helmet mounted cuing system.  Where you're looking allows you to cue the other sensors to that spot based on the position of the helmet mounted sight.

CAP - Combat Air Patrol (an orbit point)

RWS - Range while Scan.  A normal search mode of a fire control radar

STT - Single Target Track.  Same as being "locked on".

EA - Electronic Attack (jamming)

It sounds coherent and plausible.  The jargon is correct and the sequence seems correct.  I have no opinion beyond that.  If this had happened at DFG, I would not hesitate to say it was 1000% true.  But off San Diego.... who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/23/2017 at 9:06 PM, austin1972 said:

Aliens? I know they're out there. It just makes sense. Burning the energy to 'check us out'? I have a hard time swallowing that. Space is just too big for that.

Why not?  That is the entire premise Star Trek is based on.  Visit planets to observe them and try to remain unnoticed so you don't interfere in their development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why not?  That is the entire premise Star Trek is based on.  Visit planets to observe them and try to remain unnoticed so you don't interfere in their development.

Yes, I get the Prime Directive. I just don't see how the power can be created. It would be neat but then physics gets in the way. Space is so freaking big.

You're a pilot. You know math and physics. Juno traveled at 25 miles/second. That's slow in space. Helios 2 reached almost 160,000 mph. Still slow.

Unless you can put a wrinkle in time, the power just isn't available. Now that I've said that, somebody will figure it out and make me wrong. :)

But at this time, nobody knows of anything that goes faster than light.

edit: Well, electrons can be in two places at the same time but that's just weird and I can't wrap my head around that one. Quantum mechanics are crazy, so I guess I just called bullshit on myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why not?  That is the entire premise Star Trek is based on.  Visit planets to observe them and try to remain unnoticed so you don't interfere in their development.

They’d take one look at this place and would sensibly decide to check back in another 500-1000 years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why not?  That is the entire premise Star Trek is based on.  Visit planets to observe them and try to remain unnoticed so you don't interfere in their development.

Then how do you explain all the trouble they caused wherever they went? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2017 at 9:15 AM, Sail4beer said:

Then how do you explain all the trouble they caused wherever they went? 

That was my point in the other thread. TJ Hooker had every intention to do that, but then he got to give Carrie Fisher a little blow and head off to Monkey Town.

Aren't astronauts basically just sailors with more expensive boats? What sailor passes by a chance to bang an interplanetary space coke fiend?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2017 at 1:58 PM, SailBlueH2O said:

Actually Earth is the most popular alien reality show....

That would explain an interest in SoCal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2017 at 10:12 PM, Shootist Jeff said:

Why not?  That is the entire premise Star Trek is based on.  Visit planets to observe them and try to remain unnoticed so you don't interfere in their development.

Encountering an oxygen/nitrogen/H2-0 world during the brief part of its history wherein thar be critters who have fire, stone tools, and KFC chicken is an exceedingly rare occurrence. Not excusing grabbing airliners and inserting anal tracking probes, just for the record. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because an alien civilization advanced enough to locate earth and traverse the unbelievable distance and time that would be required from the nearest star/solar system would make the trip to secretly kidnap farmers from Kentucky to insert probes into their rectums,examine their genitals and dissect cows is so believable.............:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2017 at 10:10 PM, Shootist Jeff said:

These are the acronyms from your link.

WSO - Weapons Systems Officer (aka backseater)

FLIR (pod) - Forward Looking Infrared.  A movable camera with both normal daytime color cameras as well as IR cameras.

APG-73 radar - New fangled fighter radar that can pick up two gnats fucking in mid air.

BFM - Basic Fighter Maneuvers (dogfighting)

HCMS - Helmet mounted cuing system.  Where you're looking allows you to cue the other sensors to that spot based on the position of the helmet mounted sight.

CAP - Combat Air Patrol (an orbit point)

RWS - Range while Scan.  A normal search mode of a fire control radar

STT - Single Target Track.  Same as being "locked on".

EA - Electronic Attack (jamming)

It sounds coherent and plausible.  The jargon is correct and the sequence seems correct.  I have no opinion beyond that.  If this had happened at DFG, I would not hesitate to say it was 1000% true.  But off San Diego.... who knows.

I was hoping for one more opinion: See the vid in post 22. Someone who has sat in the seat would have an opinion of how big a circle he was flying and thereby a guesstimate of the size of whateverthefuk it was. Seems to my eye to be about the size of a VW bug. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/23/2017 at 11:20 PM, Ishmael said:

Throwback to Ichthyosaurs.

 lickalottapuss 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2017 at 7:58 AM, austin1972 said:

Yes, I get the Prime Directive. I just don't see how the power can be created. It would be neat but then physics gets in the way. Space is so freaking big.

You're a pilot. You know math and physics. Juno traveled at 25 miles/second. That's slow in space. Helios 2 reached almost 160,000 mph. Still slow.

Unless you can put a wrinkle in time, the power just isn't available. Now that I've said that, somebody will figure it out and make me wrong. :)

But at this time, nobody knows of anything that goes faster than light.

edit: Well, electrons can be in two places at the same time but that's just weird and I can't wrap my head around that one. Quantum mechanics are crazy, so I guess I just called bullshit on myself.

As a physicist once told me; "We don't have to worry that we can't exceed the speed of light.  We just need to overcome it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Point Break said:

Because an alien civilization advanced enough to locate earth and traverse the unbelievable distance and time that would be required from the nearest star/solar system would make the trip to secretly kidnap farmers from Kentucky to insert probes into their rectums,examine their genitals and dissect cows is so believable.............:lol:

You've just described a kentuckian youth's Saturday night.....

 

 

Except the traveling part....

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dorado said:

Screw that. If I'm traveling intergalacticaly I'm taking the Benz S class and leaving the Beetle at home. 

I was thinking about it possibly leaving a green spectral trail and craving sugar water. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2017 at 5:58 PM, austin1972 said:

Yes, I get the Prime Directive. I just don't see how the power can be created. It would be neat but then physics gets in the way. Space is so freaking big.

You're a pilot. You know math and physics. Juno traveled at 25 miles/second. That's slow in space. Helios 2 reached almost 160,000 mph. Still slow.

Unless you can put a wrinkle in time, the power just isn't available. Now that I've said that, somebody will figure it out and make me wrong. :)

But at this time, nobody knows of anything that goes faster than light.

edit: Well, electrons can be in two places at the same time but that's just weird and I can't wrap my head around that one. Quantum mechanics are crazy, so I guess I just called bullshit on myself.

Well, given multiple eyewitness accounts of enormous accelerations, with no heat signature, I think it's fair to say that more information is needed before saying it's impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dacapo said:

 lickalottapuss 

Me Too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Well, given multiple eyewitness accounts of enormous accelerations, with no heat signature, I think it's fair to say that more information is needed before saying it's impossible.

Yeah, I sort of talked myself out of the argument on that. The universe is an interesting place.

I really think the wrinkle is how we could do it. Fold time and space. Anyway, it's pretty cool to think about. I look forward to other peoples thoughts about it.

I'm going to ponder. It's a cool subject. I'm not sure I know physics enough to get very deep into it. Maybe I'll make make 2018 quantum physics study year. I'm fortunate that I have Fermilab close to me.

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/about/

 

Here's Fermi from the air. You're looking at a particle accelerator from my buddy's plane. Shot by me.

906843_10200404137699574_184791974_o.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Point Break said:

Because an alien civilization advanced enough to locate earth and traverse the unbelievable distance and time that would be required from the nearest star/solar system would make the trip to secretly kidnap farmers from Kentucky to insert probes into their rectums,examine their genitals and dissect cows is so believable.............:lol:

If we somehow get human biologists to another planet and it has life, what do you think they'll do?

My guess would be: dissect the locals. Because they're biologists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Yeah, I sort of talked myself out of the argument on that. The universe is an interesting place.

I really think the wrinkle is how we could do it. Fold time and space. Anyway, it's pretty cool to think about. I look forward to other peoples thoughts about it.

I'm going to ponder. It's a cool subject. I'm not sure I know physics enough to get very deep into it. Maybe I'll make make 2018 quantum physics study year. I'm fortunate that I have Fermilab close to me.

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/about/

 

Here's Fermi from the air. You're looking at a particle accelerator from my buddy's plane. Shot by me.

906843_10200404137699574_184791974_o.jpg

When they were finished building it, they needed to clean out the vacuum tubes, but they were too small and way too long to push swabs through them. The Yank physicists kept thinking up increasingly more expensive and robotic ways to clean the vacuum tubes.

But a British physicist had the idea of using a pet ferret, tied a lightweight string to it tail, and let the little fellow run all the way through it. Then they were able to use the string to pull through some cord, and the cord to pull though several rounds of cleaning swabs.

Also, the center of that loop is supposedly filled with wildlife, since they mostly leave that part undisturbed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2017 at 3:43 AM, Raz'r said:

The alien invasion will be digital, if any of them care enough to bother.

always thought the russians were aliens.... 

On 12/25/2017 at 1:10 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

These are the acronyms from your link.

WSO - Weapons Systems Officer (aka backseater)

FLIR (pod) - Forward Looking Infrared.  A movable camera with both normal daytime color cameras as well as IR cameras.

APG-73 radar - New fangled fighter radar that can pick up two gnats fucking in mid air.

BFM - Basic Fighter Maneuvers (dogfighting)

HCMS - Helmet mounted cuing system.  Where you're looking allows you to cue the other sensors to that spot based on the position of the helmet mounted sight.

CAP - Combat Air Patrol (an orbit point)

RWS - Range while Scan.  A normal search mode of a fire control radar

STT - Single Target Track.  Same as being "locked on".

EA - Electronic Attack (jamming)

It sounds coherent and plausible.  The jargon is correct and the sequence seems correct.  I have no opinion beyond that.  If this had happened at DFG, I would not hesitate to say it was 1000% true.  But off San Diego.... who knows.

i thought CAP stood for bunch of old people bitching about the way other people fly... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mikewof said:

Also, the center of that loop is supposedly filled with wildlife, since they mostly leave that part undisturbed.

The center is 6,800 something acres of restored wildlife area. It's a big loop - maybe it doesn't look like it from the air but Fermi is huge.

They do creepy science there but it's just an effort to understand things. It's definitely not nefarious. They'll let you in the door so long as you don't touch anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

The center is 6,800 something acres of restored wildlife area. It's a big loop - maybe it doesn't look like it from the air but Fermi is huge.

It looks massive from the air to me!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2017 at 10:58 PM, austin1972 said:

Yes, I get the Prime Directive. I just don't see how the power can be created. It would be neat but then physics gets in the way. Space is so freaking big.

You're a pilot. You know math and physics. Juno traveled at 25 miles/second. That's slow in space. Helios 2 reached almost 160,000 mph. Still slow.

Unless you can put a wrinkle in time, the power just isn't available. Now that I've said that, somebody will figure it out and make me wrong. :)

But at this time, nobody knows of anything that goes faster than light.

edit: Well, electrons can be in two places at the same time but that's just weird and I can't wrap my head around that one. Quantum mechanics are crazy, so I guess I just called bullshit on myself.

The only grain we currently have to work with is that time is relative...so if a way can be found to manipulate time within a field of some kind then it would be possible to cross the distances...if ya aren't concerned about returning to a planet that might well...after a million years...be no longer inhabitable. Or maybe inhabited by critters so different from you there's no "going home". Conversely, if you could speed it up within your bubble you could pull off the sort of moves that from our perspective appear gee-intensive enough to crush a Cat engine block.

   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mark K said:

The only grain we currently have to work with is that time is relative...so if a way can be found to manipulate time within a field of some kind then it would be possible to cross the distances...if ya aren't concerned about returning to a planet that might well...after a million years...be no longer inhabitable. Or maybe inhabited by critters so different from you there's no "going home". Conversely, if you could speed it up within your bubble you could pull off the sort of moves that from our perspective appear gee-intensive enough to crush a Cat engine block.

   

 

Yep, I think those who suppose that sort of space travel is possible really have not investigated the physics of it or in the absence of that have been too influenced by the movies and TV shows that have as a premise that interstellar travel is a given eventually if only a “civilization” is advanced enough. May I suggest a quick read of Bill Bryson’s “A Short History of Nearly Everything”, or even Hawkings “Grand Design” where in part, the distances involved and the physics of theoretical travel of those distances makes the likelihood VERY low. Although it’s 20 years old Carl Sagan’s “Demon Haunted World - Science as a candle in the dark” still does a very good job of examining the likelihood of alien visitations extremely well. 

‘That said, I do believe that it is very likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe (as do most of those mentioned above). Unless you are a pure creationist, scientifically it is very likely. Not a certainty but quite likely.

oh......slight tangent....just finished Dan Browns new book “Origins”. I enjoyed it immensely. Once again, the church will be very irritated. It is an atheists joy, and even myself - a intellectually curious open minded agnostic - can enjoy it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Point Break said:

Yep, I think those who suppose that sort of space travel is possible really have not investigated the physics of it or in the absence of that have been too influenced by the movies and TV shows that have as a premise that interstellar travel is a given eventually if only a “civilization” is advanced enough. 

It's impossible is only an answer until it's not. We don't know the physics of it, so how to investigate? We're still trying to learn about things like dark matter and energy and we don't know a heck of a lot more than Newton did about gravity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Uncooperative Tom said:

It's impossible is only an answer until it's not. We don't know the physics of it, so how to investigate? We're still trying to learn about things like dark matter and energy and we don't know a heck of a lot more than Newton did about gravity.

Drive on and keep looking skyward then..........meanwhile I'll continue to understand interstellar travel is VERY unlikely if not impossible. "Scotty engage the warp drive" is TV.....and movies. Your mileage may vary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Drive on and keep looking skyward then..........meanwhile I'll continue to understand interstellar travel is VERY unlikely if not impossible. "Scotty engage the warp drive" is TV.....and movies. Your mileage may vary.

I am pretty skeptical about many things but there are some real bright minds working that are turning physics on its ear pretty much.  Modern technology certainly aids in that quest as well with the huge computing power and colliders and such.  I imagine in the next 50-75 years a lot of things will change or will be much better understood in that field.  If we don't destroy ourselves first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, soak_ed said:
1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Drive on and keep looking skyward then..........meanwhile I'll continue to understand interstellar travel is VERY unlikely if not impossible. "Scotty engage the warp drive" is TV.....and movies. Your mileage may vary.

I am pretty skeptical about many things but there are some real bright minds working that are turning physics on its ear pretty much.  Modern technology certainly aids in that quest as well with the huge computing power and colliders and such.  I imagine in the next 50-75 years a lot of things will change or will be much better understood in that field.  If we don't destroy ourselves first.

That's what we said 50 years ago.

Where are the moon colonies? We were supposed to have flying cars and moon colonies by now...... shit, by ten or more years ago. The future ain't what it used to be......

I think it's likely that there are several different "work-arounds" for the problems of time & distance. Are we being visited by aliens? No way to even guess. Are there advanced civilizations out there? It's almost a certainty.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

It's impossible is only an answer until it's not. We don't know the physics of it, so how to investigate? We're still trying to learn about things like dark matter and energy and we don't know a heck of a lot more than Newton did about gravity.

We've in fact learned a lot about dark matter and dark energy. We know it comprises 95.1% of the universe. They've done a lot with CMB studies. ΩΛ = ~0.690;

Like I said, this stuff is over my head but I really want to learn about it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Point Break said:

Drive on and keep looking skyward then..........meanwhile I'll continue to understand interstellar travel is VERY unlikely if not impossible. "Scotty engage the warp drive" is TV.....and movies. Your mileage may vary.

An AI should be able to do it, by transmitting the digital program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, austin1972 said:
9 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

It's impossible is only an answer until it's not. We don't know the physics of it, so how to investigate? We're still trying to learn about things like dark matter and energy and we don't know a heck of a lot more than Newton did about gravity.

We've in fact learned a lot about dark matter and dark energy. We know it comprises 95.1% of the universe. They've done a lot with CMB studies. ΩΛ = ~0.690;

Like I said, this stuff is over my head but I really want to learn about it.

My point was that we only recently learned it was there at all and now we know it's there but can't really explain what it is. Kind of like gravity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, austin1972 said:

We've in fact learned a lot about dark matter and dark energy. We know it comprises 95.1% of the universe. They've done a lot with CMB studies. ΩΛ = ~0.690;

Like I said, this stuff is over my head but I really want to learn about it.

Best of luck in understanding it. I'm half-decent in quantum mechanics, half-shitty in covariant tensor mechanics and I can't understand fuck-all about dark energy. It requires a suspension of disbelief that I'm incapable of generating. 

My gut feeling is that there is no dark energy, and we just need it to balance our flawed understanding of Nature. And I think too that all photons above the ground-state are waves and all photons below the ground state (the virtual ones) are particles. The virtual photons exist for a time no longer than the PlanckLength divided by the SpeedOfLight, so that they don't violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty, nor Conservation of Energy. And the photons with energy greater than 2(pi)hbar times the frequency are just disturbances through the ground state, that have to come out because the landlord of HUP and  COE won't let that energy stay there.

That would explain this constant speed of light across reference frames, it would do away with the need for dark energy, significantly bolster the need for dark matter, it would delineate the difference  between vacuum and empty space (empty space is devoid of virtual photons, and is thus perfectly massive), and it would suggest a ready way to significantly exceed the speed of light, just interact only weekly.

It seems that our key mistake all these years was thinking that energy led to mass. In fact it is probably the opposite ... lack of energy leads to mass. When ground state energy is excluded fron a certain volume, we are left with mass.

(btw, this isn't a PUI, unless "influence" includes boredom, green tea, and turkey sausage with chili sauce wrapped in leaves of raw cabbage.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Best of luck in understanding it. I'm half-decent in quantum mechanics, half-shitty in covariant tensor mechanics and I can't understand fuck-all about dark matter and dark energy. It requires a suspension of disbelief that I'm incapable of generating. 

Agreed. I have - intermittently - spent considerable time and reading effort (even stooped to watching a couple TV shows that try to center on those concepts) trying to get my arms around just the overarching concepts much less the math...........not gonna happen. Perhaps if I could sit with someone who claims to understand the concepts for a while I could get a glimmer....but that ain't gonna happen either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Point Break said:

Agreed. I have - intermittently - spent considerable time and reading effort (even stooped to watching a couple TV shows that try to center on those concepts) trying to get my arms around just the overarching concepts much less the math...........not gonna happen. Perhaps if I could sit with someone who claims to understand the concepts for a while I could get a glimmer....but that ain't gonna happen either. 

I've spent decades with people who understand the concepts, and I still have less than a gnat's ballsack worth of genuine understanding about it.

Either I'm a genuine dumbshit (a very distinct likelihood) or the theory makes no sense and it's wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Agreed. I have - intermittently - spent considerable time and reading effort (even stooped to watching a couple TV shows that try to center on those concepts) trying to get my arms around just the overarching concepts much less the math...........not gonna happen. Perhaps if I could sit with someone who claims to understand the concepts for a while I could get a glimmer....but that ain't gonna happen either. 

I'm probably in the same boat but a guy has to have a hobby. I'm fortunate that Chicagoland has some great institutions and my career doesn't rely on me failing to understand this stuff. But, I'd like to try.

The end result will likely be, "Austin, what did you learn?"

"Umm, that I'm a dumbass and nowhere near qualified to even do the math. I learned red is actually 255, 0, 0 "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

I'm probably in the same boat but a guy has to have a hobby. I'm fortunate that Chicagoland has some great institutions and my career doesn't rely on me failing to understand this stuff. But, I'd like to try.

The end result will likely be, "Austin, what did you learn?"

"Umm, that I'm a dumbass and nowhere near qualified to even do the math. I learned red is actually 255, 0, 0 "

I'm not saying it wasn't worth the intellectual trip, there were quite a number of side "oh thats cool" along the way...........it just didn't result in "OH yeah, I completely understand that shit"...............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Point Break said:

I'm not saying it wasn't worth the intellectual trip, there were quite a number of side "oh thats cool" along the way...........it just didn't result in "OH yeah, I completely understand that shit"...............

I have no expectation of understanding it. Sometimes, it's just fun to know enough to realize I don't know a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mikewof said:
1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Agreed. I have - intermittently - spent considerable time and reading effort (even stooped to watching a couple TV shows that try to center on those concepts) trying to get my arms around just the overarching concepts much less the math...........not gonna happen. Perhaps if I could sit with someone who claims to understand the concepts for a while I could get a glimmer....but that ain't gonna happen either. 

I've spent decades with people who understand the concepts, and I still have less than a gnat's ballsack worth of genuine understanding about it.

Either I'm a genuine dumbshit (a very distinct likelihood) or the theory makes no sense and it's wrong.

 

Like string theory................ or relativity, for that matter.................. it makes sense in the context where it explains what we observe. Physicists didn't just dream up "dark matter" while passing the bong and saying "hey wouldn't it be cool if blah blah blah." They have some rather bizarre math explaining things they observe, and some equally valid observations that DO NOT fit this particular math, however, if one adds dark matter then it explains all.

Similar conceptual leap to observing helium or hydrogen in the absence of understanding gas density. You need to get into the context, and see what the physicists are seeing. Who knows, one of you guys may be able to fit it all together and come up with the Theory of Everything which enables FTL travel!

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

I have no expectation of understanding it. Sometimes, it's just fun to know enough to realize I don't know a thing.

I feel your pain! SAT scores, when I was 17, got me into Mensa, but I wasn't smart enough to run away from the Real Estate biz in 2007!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Like string theory................ or relativity, for that matter.................. it makes sense in the context where it explains what we observe. Physicists didn't just dream up "dark matter" while passing the bong and saying "hey wouldn't it be cool if blah blah blah." They have some rather bizarre math explaining things they observe, and some equally valid observations that DO NOT fit this particular math, however, if one adds dark matter then it explains all.

Similar conceptual leap to observing helium or hydrogen in the absence of understanding gas density. You need to get into the context, and see what the physicists are seeing. Who knows, one of you guys may be able to fit it all together and come up with the Theory of Everything which enables FTL travel!

-DSK

You're right, and that's why it unnerves me so much to discuss it. My seed of discontent started over ten years ago with renormalization. The entire concept seemed so violently anti-mathematic; I've no problems with ignoring things that are infinitely tiny, but why the fuck do we ignore things that are infinitely large? And yet these theories usually require some form of renormalization to get them to work. Both Feynman and Dirac never accepted renormalization, but we use it anyway because the prediction on a small scale agrees with observation. I don't have any problem with renormalization, I know that it works, but it seems an opportunity to find a theory of Nature that doesn't need it. 

When all we had was Newtonian physics, we had to go to increasingly bizarre lengths to justify physics at a small and large scale. Then we got Relativity and Quantum and suddenly we didn't need Newtonian gymnastics to give us answers. But now we've mystified physics to the point that we need things like Dark Energy, renormalization, extra dimensions and action-at-a-distance to make things fit our observations. There must be a simpler explanation out there, we need to to find it because I can't believe that the universe is assembled like a Mac 26x.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mikewof said:

You're right, and that's why it unnerves me so much to discuss it. My seed of discontent started over ten years ago with renormalization. The entire concept seemed so violently anti-mathematic; I've no problems with ignoring things that are infinitely tiny, but why the fuck do we ignore things that are infinitely large? And yet these theories usually require some form of renormalization to get them to work. Both Feynman and Dirac never accepted renormalization, but we use it anyway because the prediction on a small scale agrees with observation. I don't have any problem with renormalization, I know that it works, but it seems an opportunity to find a theory of Nature that doesn't need it. 

When all we had was Newtonian physics, we had to go to increasingly bizarre lengths to justify physics at a small and large scale. Then we got Relativity and Quantum and suddenly we didn't need Newtonian gymnastics to give us answers. But now we've mystified physics to the point that we need things like Dark Energy, renormalization, extra dimensions and action-at-a-distance to make things fit our observations. There must be a simpler explanation out there, we need to to find it because I can't believe that the universe is assembled like a Mac 26x.

Well, it's better than the gymnastics that would be required to fit relativistic or subatomic effects into Newtonian physics.

It's also infinitely better than Aristotlean physics..... if the math doesn't work, then ignore math!!

One point to remember, the stuff that they are basing these theories on is extremely difficult to observe & measure. We don't have all that much data to try and build math on. It may also be something we don't understand about context, like observing helium when you assume ambient air is the same as a vacuum. In any event, whatever we think is happening with the universe and whatever math we invent to explain it, the next generation will come along and say how stupid we were.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Well, it's better than the gymnastics that would be required to fit relativistic or subatomic effects into Newtonian physics.

It's also infinitely better than Aristotlean physics..... if the math doesn't work, then ignore math!!

One point to remember, the stuff that they are basing these theories on is extremely difficult to observe & measure. We don't have all that much data to try and build math on. It may also be something we don't understand about context, like observing helium when you assume ambient air is the same as a vacuum. In any event, whatever we think is happening with the universe and whatever math we invent to explain it, the next generation will come along and say how stupid we were.

-DSK

I hope that the next generation will say how stupid we were, if they marvel at our intelligence then this whole planet is up shit's creek.

I don't want to apply Newtonian physics, but rather just Thermodynamics and HUP.

Anyway, a little more pedestrian question for the Air Force guys here, I'm going to through my uncle's stuff, and there are some technical manuals in there, like one for the C5 Galaxy, full blueprints of every system apparently. Am I allowed to have these things? If not, wtf am I supposed to do with them?

35250lg.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mikewof said:

I've spent decades with people who understand the concepts, and I still have less than a gnat's ballsack worth of genuine understanding about it.

Either I'm a genuine dumbshit (a very distinct likelihood) or the theory makes no sense and it's wrong.  We got your back pal.

 

Don't worry Mike, many of us here won't argue about the "dumbshit" likelihood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Like string theory................ or relativity, for that matter.................. it makes sense in the context where it explains what we observe. Physicists didn't just dream up "dark matter" while passing the bong and saying "hey wouldn't it be cool if blah blah blah." They have some rather bizarre math explaining things they observe, and some equally valid observations that DO NOT fit this particular math, however, if one adds dark matter then it explains all.

Similar conceptual leap to observing helium or hydrogen in the absence of understanding gas density. You need to get into the context, and see what the physicists are seeing. Who knows, one of you guys may be able to fit it all together and come up with the Theory of Everything which enables FTL travel!

-DSK

That is true to a point but I think sometimes, early on a false premise is accepted as fact due to plausible proofs, etc.  Then an entire branch of science is built on this well meaning fallacy.  I mean it hasn't happened in a major way yet, but it is possible that Einstein got some big things wrong.  There is an awful lot we don't know in spite of 'modern' science.  In fact I doubt we know much at all, in the grand scheme of things.  We are just foolish enough to think we know a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, soak_ed said:

In fact I doubt we know much at all, in the grand scheme of things.  We are just foolish enough to think we know a lot.

Exactly! It's fun to consider that though, no?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mikewof said:

I hope that the next generation will say how stupid we were, if they marvel at our intelligence then this whole planet is up shit's creek.

I don't want to apply Newtonian physics, but rather just Thermodynamics and HUP.

Anyway, a little more pedestrian question for the Air Force guys here, I'm going to through my uncle's stuff, and there are some technical manuals in there, like one for the C5 Galaxy, full blueprints of every system apparently. Am I allowed to have these things? If not, wtf am I supposed to do with them?

35250lg.jpg

Read em. I encountered a pilot's handbook for an F4 one day and man o man was there some cool shit in it. First off, I didn't think there was that much fuel in the world,  one thirsty effin bird! Near as I can tell mach one at sea level would have a fuel flow to each engine approximating that of a flushing toilet. Next was the humor. There were a plethora of emergency checklists, most ending in "EJECT", and nearly half the inch and a half think volume was devoted to the ejection system. The dead-stick landing procedure even started with "EJECT". It was to be used only if the seats didn't work. 

   A glide ratio only a brick would envy. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, mikewof said:

I hope that the next generation will say how stupid we were, if they marvel at our intelligence then this whole planet is up shit's creek.

I don't want to apply Newtonian physics, but rather just Thermodynamics and HUP.

Anyway, a little more pedestrian question for the Air Force guys here, I'm going to through my uncle's stuff, and there are some technical manuals in there, like one for the C5 Galaxy, full blueprints of every system apparently. Am I allowed to have these things? If not, wtf am I supposed to do with them?

35250lg.jpg

If that manual contained classified information, it would be clearly marked on the cover.  Confidential, Secret, or Top Secret, which can include some additional qualifiers such as TS/SCI, etc.   They don't hide that shit inside, they want you to know right away if you're handling a classified document.

So read it without fear of black helicopters descending on your home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Exactly! It's fun to consider that though, no?

Sure. Even more fun to do it under the influence of mind expanding drugs.  Or so I've been told.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

Sure. Even more fun to do it under the influence of mind expanding drugs.  Or so I've been told.

What's your favourite combination?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

What's your favourite combination?

I used to smoke hash while tripping on acid, that was interesting.  Then there were the nights of beer, whiskey, coke, and weed all mixed up, and so were we.  It was a challenge to fine tune the stimulant and depressant levels to just the right buzz and still remain semi coherent and not shaking too much.  Then there was the hash and speed thing too.  I don't do that kind of shit anymore, too old.   Amazingly, I never tried mushrooms but next time I go to Amsterdam...

I am a little leery (Leary?) anymore of hallucinogenics, I had a bad trip one time.  I don't ever want to go full Castaneda again.

 

Disclaimer:  These experiments were carried out with experienced, professional substance abusers, for pseudo-educational purposes in an uncontrolled environment.  Do not try this at home.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Like string theory................ or relativity, for that matter.................. it makes sense in the context where it explains what we observe. Physicists didn't just dream up "dark matter" while passing the bong and saying "hey wouldn't it be cool if blah blah blah." They have some rather bizarre math explaining things they observe, and some equally valid observations that DO NOT fit this particular math, however, if one adds dark matter then it explains all.

Similar conceptual leap to observing helium or hydrogen in the absence of understanding gas density. You need to get into the context, and see what the physicists are seeing. Who knows, one of you guys may be able to fit it all together and come up with the Theory of Everything which enables FTL travel!

-DSK

I think they occasionally try to pry some information from the boys at DFG, usually after a few beers as it is widely known they are uninterested in having us out there with them.

 "Expanding universe?" 

 "Space sucks."

 The little bastards have a sense of humor, anyway.      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites