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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Gouvernail

Percentages in other bases than ten

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C

A Christmas Eve mindbender for some of us. Maybe someone here knows the right answer

9 of 10 would be 90% in Base ten

I think 100 is an arbitrarily chosen number for “all of it.”  

And

by universal agreement all percentages are expressed as hundredths of Whatever is the total 

****

if that is true

9 of 10 in base 18 would be expressed as 50% in base 10

Let’s say the base eighteen digit for what we know as 14 in base ten is ¥ 

 

In base 18 that which we express as fifty in base 10 would be 2¥.

Is the entire  pile of sand 100% in base 18? Would it be equivalent of 180 base ten units? 

Would  that percentage which  we also know as representing half be 90% in base 18 or would it be 2¥% ??

**** I think the general rule is percentages are always of a hundred units as expressed in base ten.

our computers use 110110 (base Two) to express fifty percent of 1100100 (base two) 

 

anybody??

 

 

 

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A : 9 of 10 would be 90% in Base ten

 

B: 9 of 10 in base 18 would be expressed as 50% in base 10

 

therefore A does not equal B , which is the argument you are trying to make .

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Only a mindbender if your mind is a flabby blob of fat. The basic idea of percent is a moronic substitute for simply using 1 to represent the whole. A holdover from the dark ages, perhaps? As dumb as the basis point, 12 inch foot, 16 ounce pound, teenth, etc, etc.

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23 minutes ago, Mid said:

A : 9 of 10 would be 90% in Base ten

 

B: 9 of 10 in base 18 would be expressed as 50% in base 10

 

therefore A does not equal B , which is the argument you are trying to make .

Oh no... I have no position. 

I am asking what the hell percent means to mathematicians 

maybe there is a universal rule that in any base percentage is based upon 100

or 

maybe percent is always expressed in base ten and has no meaning in any other base 

or 

something else

 

i am betting percent is a base ten concept and doesn’t exist in other bases. 

But

i don’t know and didnt   find an answer with a brief google search 

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(Apologies if I end up just writing in a more verbose way what Mid already wrote but I need to come at these riddles step by step.)

Percentages are base-ten by definition, cent is a hundred, and by definition it has to be be x/100. There are other base-ten ratios other than cents, i.e., other than ratios of 100, like per mils, per millions, per billions, etc..

But ratios can exist in non base-ten systems too, so, lessee your riddle, but we need to be clear to avoid "percent" and instead use "ratio."

In base-eighteen, 9/10 is 1/2, which in base-eighteen would be 90%, assuming your numbering system in base-eighteen is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, 10. (For simplicity, let's avoid your "¥" notation, and instead use 'E.' Also, we shouldn't call it "Base-18' because in Base-eighteen, that would actually be equivalent to 26, in base-ten, so use "base-eighteen, to avoid confusion.)

 

Now, in Base-eighteen, that which we express as 50 in base-ten, would then be equal to two units of eighteen, plus one unit of E, thus it would be equal to 2E, in Base-eighteen. So far, so good, your riddle is perfect.

The entire pile of sand in base-eighteen would be the ratio of 1/1, the term "cent' no longer applies in a non-base-ten numbering scheme, because "100" in base-eighteen would more properly be something like "eighteenzee" or some equivalent. In base-twelve for instance, 100 is often called "doozy." But I get your point, so let's suspend careful mathematics for a moment, and apply the word "cent" to base-eighteen. We'll change the name a little bit, so we don't confuse ourselves, let's call the ratio of x/100 a "percentz" in base-eighteen.

So now, the entire pile of sand in base-eighteen would be 100/100, or 100 percentz. In Base-eighteen, this is 10 x 10 = 100. The equivalent in base-ten units, would be 18 x 18 = 324. (A real life application of this is the gross, which is a dozen times a dozen, which is 100 in base-twelve, or 144 in base-ten.) It wouldn't be 180, because that's 18 x 10, you've mixed the bases.

 

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Gouv, you're making more of the origins than is necessary.  Most of us have ten fingers, which long ago led to the habit of counting in Base 10.  If we had eight fingers, we'd be counting to Base 8. If we had 18 digits, we'd be counting in Base 18.

We don't, though, have 18 fingers (nor only 8). We have 10 clitoris-ticklers, and so, much of what we do with numbers is based upon ten or multiples of ten as a result of that facet of evolution*.   Ten "10's" are 100 of course.  Maybe someone along the way came up with the Per 100 deal in order to encourage greater accuracy (?)

 

 

* Am I allowed to say, "evolution" these days?

 

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7 minutes ago, atoyot said:

Gouv, you're making more of the origins than is necessary.  Most of us have ten fingers, which long ago led to the habit of counting in Base 10.  If we had eight fingers, we'd be counting to Base 8. If we had 18 digits, we'd be counting in Base 18.

We don't, though, have 18 fingers (nor only 8). We have 10 clitoris-ticklers, and so, much of what we do with numbers is based upon ten or multiples of ten as a result of that facet of evolution*.   Ten "10's" are 100 of course.  Maybe someone along the way came up with the Per 100 deal in order to encourage greater accuracy (?)

 

 

* Am I allowed to say, "evolution" these days?

 

But base-twelve was actually more common for anyone who had to do commerce. It's why there are a dozen eggs, a dozen rolls, a baker's dozen (so they didn't get executed for underweight products) twelve inches to the foot, 3 feet to a yard, etc.

We don't actually have five fingers on each hand, we have four three-segment fingers and a thumb. Point to each segment and then count, you'll get to a dozen on one hand, and a gross, or a dozen dozens (144) on two hands.

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That's some fucked up baseball. There's only three bases. Four, if you count home plate, but it's not a base. It's probably not an alkali either. We had alkali sloughs in Saskatchewan, nobody could ever explain why slough and plough and enough don't rhyme.

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51 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

That's some fucked up baseball. There's only three bases. Four, if you count home plate, but it's not a base. It's probably not an alkali either. We had alkali sloughs in Saskatchewan, nobody could ever explain why slough and plough and enough don't rhyme.

Hence, pot and booze.......

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

our computers use 110110 (base Two) to express fifty percent of 1100100 (base two)

Are you 100% wrong here? Or 8% wrong? Or perchance 92.6% correct?

Hint: Computing 50% in base two is 100% easy.

I am pretty sure the smart folks who work in number bases other than ten never use percentages except when forced to when communicating with marketing and finance people.

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I think 100 is an arbitrarily chosen number for “all of it.”  

 

mikewof basically said it but "%" is just a way of expressing a ratio with the common denominator being 100.  The percentage 50% is really 1/2 or 0.5 with 1, the multiplicative identity, being the whole.  Trig functions work like this, i.e. SIN(45 deg) is about 0.707 or 70.7% of the length of the radius of a unit circle...  Percent is one of those this people just say, mostly understand, and never really think about.  But percentages are really just for communicating our calculations to non math people.  What is important is the ratio between a quantity and the whole, and if we reduce everything down to the multiplicative identity then this is 1.  Forget the number 100 because 10010  in base 18 is 32418 and that just won't make things easy for us.  Percent is very 10-centric, so I am going to say percent for this conversation is the decimal value of some ratio with the decimal place shifted two places to the right.

100% in binary is 12, in octal is 18 in hex is 116, duodecimal is 112, so it follows in base 18 it would also be 1.  If we take % to mean shift the decimal two places then:

10 would be 18 in base 18, so:

¥ / 10 = 0.¥  or ¥ 0 %18  or about 78% in base 10.  

and  if we are just shifting the decimal places 2 spots 50%10  is  90%18  but what is really spooky is that 100%18 is 100%10   but 33%10 is 60%18

So what is 90%10 in %18?

 

 

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best thread creep ever

 

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Sorry about the 180... I was also paying attention to the ends of a couple football games. 

It seemed too low  but my 65 years of base 10 messed me up

self test>>>>

base 18  ~~~base 10

10 =18

100= 324

110= 342

1000= 5832

1100= 6156

1110= 6174

I can do this crap.

 

but it does seem percentages only belong in base 10 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, sailak said:

mikewof basically said it but "%" is just a way of expressing a ratio with the common denominator being 100.  The percentage 50% is really 1/2 or 0.5 with 1, the multiplicative identity, being the whole.  Trig functions work like this, i.e. SIN(45 deg) is about 0.707 or 70.7% of the length of the radius of a unit circle...  Percent is one of those this people just say, mostly understand, and never really think about.  But percentages are really just for communicating our calculations to non math people.  What is important is the ratio between a quantity and the whole, and if we reduce everything down to the multiplicative identity then this is 1.  Forget the number 100 because 10010  in base 18 is 32418 and that just won't make things easy for us.  Percent is very 10-centric, so I am going to say percent for this conversation is the decimal value of some ratio with the decimal place shifted two places to the right.

100% in binary is 12, in octal is 18 in hex is 116, duodecimal is 112, so it follows in base 18 it would also be 1.  If we take % to mean shift the decimal two places then:

10 would be 18 in base 18, so:

¥ / 10 = 0.¥  or ¥ 0 %18  or about 78% in base 10.  

and  if we are just shifting the decimal places 2 spots 50%10  is  90%18  but what is really spooky is that 100%18 is 100%10   but 33%10 is 60%18

So what is 90%10 in %18?

 

 

You wrote all your little numbers after the wrong big numbers. 

100 in base 18 

is 324 in base 10

and etc...

but reading all of it with full knowledge you got it backwards makes your post fully understandable 

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

That's some fucked up baseball. There's only three bases. Four, if you count home plate, but it's not a base. It's probably not an alkali either. We had alkali sloughs in Saskatchewan, nobody could ever explain why slough and plough and enough don't rhyme.

Five if you count DFG.

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Per cent is 1 out of 100.  All numeric bases have 100 - it is the lowest number at the third power.

In base 16 - popular for programming, 100 converts to 256 in base 10.

Reasonably, 1% in base 16 is 1/256.

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Oh, and 50%  (0.50 base 10 decimal) is numerically equivalent to  binary 0.1 and  1% is 0.00000010100100. Merry Christmas, and yeah lets keep % for accountants and base 10.

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15 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

,Oh no... I have no position. 

I am asking what the hell percent means to mathematicians 

maybe there is a universal rule that in any base percentage is based upon 100

or 

maybe percent is always expressed in base ten and has no meaning in any other base 

or 

something else

 

i am betting percent is a base ten concept and doesn’t exist in other bases. 

But

i don’t know and didnt   find an answer with a brief google search 

It is simply a part of a whole. Doesn't matter a dang bit what you choose. A percent is a fraction of a whole unit.

whether that is 7/8, 12/34, 99999999999/1000000000000. All the same, numerator divided by denominator gives you the part of the whole represented, i.e. percent.

This is what happens when you think you are more clever than you actually are Fred.

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8 hours ago, Gangbusters said:

I will ask the mathematician when he wakes up. Sometime between 10am and 12 pm.

Did you hear about the constipated mathmetician?

 

He sat down and worked it out with a pencil!

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On 12/25/2017 at 8:17 AM, Tax Man said:

Per cent is 1 out of 100.  All numeric bases have 100 - it is the lowest number at the third power.

In base 16 - popular for programming, 100 converts to 256 in base 10.

Reasonably, 1% in base 16 is 1/256.

But I think that cent is only a base ten thing, because cent represents an actual number, rather than the representation of a number.

It's a hundred years, a hundredth of a dollar, a hundreth of a meter, a hundreth of a hundred. There is no hundred in other bases, and 100 in base ten is not equal to 100 in base twelve. The word hindred and cent have to refer to a number in a specific base.

A dozen in base twelve is represented by the number 10. And in Base twelve there is no such number as "ten", there is "dec" which equals ten in base ten.

The correct way to indicate a ratio in another base is to call it a ratio. But "percent" is a special kind of ratio, a unique one, that is only a ratio of a hundred in base ten. There are an infinite number of other ratios, but only one of those ratios is known by "per cent." The equivalent in base twelve is "per gross."

 

An aside that I've always liked with ratios of different number bases, is that Base Twelve is the resident Bad Ass number base. Its ratio of nonrepeating decimals to base is the highest of all number bases larger than base four; 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, D (dec), 10 (do). I love that lots of people from the antiquities were smarter than us, and preferred it as a better system than ten.

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"percentage" comes from latin "per cento" meaning "by hundred" thus, by definition, "percentage" is hundred-based.

if it had a base other than hundred it would not be percentage.

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Free Basing is a BAD Idea

 

how about 1/2 a Tank = ??

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2 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

Free Basing is a BAD Idea

 

how about 1/2 a Tank = ??

Hey! Wait a minute!

This thread is a decoy! You KNEW that all of us Math junkies would get so distracted by this number-bait that we wouldn't remember to torture you that your hated Chargers now have playoff hopes!

Holy shit! Your Most Despised Church of Charger Hatred now has to deal with the possibility of a Charger Superbowl!

 

 

 

Wait ... that wouldn't happen, right? Nahh.

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18 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Hey! Wait a minute!

This thread is a decoy! You KNEW that all of us Math junkies would get so distracted by this number-bait that we wouldn't remember to torture you that your hated Chargers now have playoff hopes!

Holy shit! Your Most Despised Church of Charger Hatred now has to deal with the possibility of a Charger Superbowl!

 

 

 

Wait ... that wouldn't happen, right? Nahh.

the Fucking Sucking chargers do the Dying Swan

they finish the season with enough points to have won 16 games

But itz too many here not quite enough there 

they shoot for the post season

just to get there is more than enoigh for them = 1 and Done

what they are accomplishing is Fucking tbeir draft pix and toughening next years schedual

And that Good as the better the opponents the More opponents Fan will show

Fuck them !!!

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Now that the thread has drifted to sports....it is appropriate to point out that sports statistics go full moron on percentages when they say mind bending things like “0.543 field goal percentage” when they really mean 54.3%.

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On 12/25/2017 at 1:23 AM, silent bob said:

Seven out of four people have problems with fractions.

 

The other half just don’t care!

there are ten types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't. 

edit: goddammit sequet scrirl beet me too it. 

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8 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

there are ten types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't. 

edit: goddammit sequet scrirl beet me too it. 

I think the "ten" needs to be replaced by "10" for the joke to work.

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51 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I think the "ten" needs to be replaced by "10" for the joke to work.

that is, in fact, the joke. a joke within a joke if you will. 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

there are ten types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't. 

edit: goddammit sequet scrirl beet me too it. 

The odds were 50:50, but there was only a 40% chance of that!

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I was part of a non-base 10 math (binary?) learning experiment in the 7th grade in 1961 in the Seattle School District.  It was a difficult experience for all of us, who were mostly (barely) teenage boys and were supplied with mostly inadequate (mimeographed) teaching materials.  I was fascinated with the concept, but something seemed wrong with the process, and I am sorry that the 001000010001? didn't imprint.  Bill Gates could have been my friend and neighbor?  I have vague memories of our teacher running from the portable screaming?

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