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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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Fuck the Elderly and Infirm

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Just now, warbird said:

Someone in thier 40s or 50s should be able to go a couple months without a paycheck, hell, in,just a few more years they will be retiring.

You spell "their" the same (wrong) as Slug Zitski. Coincidence?

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

You spell "their" the same (wrong) as Slug Zitski. Coincidence?

Send a negative point my way for thumb speelling

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

See, this is why we need to bring back death panels.  :ph34r:

 

 

In all seriousness, this is a huge issue that is looming for me personally.  My mother is 77 and in reasonable health, despite still smoking a pack a day.  But increasingly I can see her declining rapidly just in the last few years.  She recently fell and broke her upper arm and was in a cast for 3 months.  At that point she as almost a prisoner in her own home as she couldn't drive, dress, shower or other basics for the first 6 weeks.  Fortunately, she has a great network of friends and neighbors that were able to come help get her to phys therapy, help her dress and such.  But I dread the day when she gets worse and may need more care.  We've both spoken about it and she says NO WAY she will go to a nursing home.  She was a career nurse and specialized in geriatric care.  She started off in Miami working as a home care nurse tending to the elderly on South Beach back before south beach was a "thing".  Then she got into managing and running nursing homes as the chief nurse manager.  Later, she was the "hammer" and was the traveling Quality Assurance nurse that would go in and inspect homes in the corporation for rules compliance.  She said even the best funded homes are a challenge.  You just can't be 100% perfect unless you have a really boutique home with very few residents where the fess are outrageous.  Anything else and the level of care is often directly proportional to the amount of involvement of the family.  These homes really rely on family to fill in some of the gaps as they can't be everywhere all the time.  Mom said the homes she ran were higher end and generally gave excellent care.  But at the end of the day, they were still FOR PROFIT corporations with all the baggage that entails.  

Mom is alone (Dad died of cancer 17 yeas ago) said that if she ever got to the point of dementia or was immobile the point where she was not self-sufficient and could not live at home with a decent quality of life, that she wants someone to just smother her with a pillow while she sleeps.  And she's dead serious about it.

And I don't completely disagree.  I think one of the issues in this country and society is we make end of life care too difficult.  Modern medicine has prolonged lifespans, but I don't think they necessarily improve quality of life beyond a point.  I think there comes a point where we need to stop valuing granny's life so much while she's hooked up to a ventilator for the last couple of years of her life.  Just because modern science can prolong life, I'm not convinced its always in the best interest of the patient or of society as a whole.  YMMV

I agree with you except one point. The bit about somebody smothering her with a pillow. My father got old and infirm and a little soft in the head toward the end.  Before that point my father, brother, sister and I were talking about end of life issues and my father basically demand one of us put him out of his misery if it came to that.  We laid into him but good.  Nobody has the right to demand that someone else kill them. I don't care what the reason, barring being in the middle of nowhere (an unlikely scenario), imagine trying to kill your parent. I don't care how ill they are, it isn't in human nature to do that.  I wish I could have smothered my mother as she laid in the bed screaming, under the influence of the malignant tumor that was killing her.   I think it is absolutely wrong to make such a request of another person.  To even put them in that position is completely unfair, the desire to help and loyalty to the parent, vs basic human instinct.  If my daughter wants to kill me, that's her choice, I will never ask her, let alone demand that she do it.  In addition to the moral an psychological implications, there are legal ramifications too.  It is illegal in every state for a layperson to kill another person under those circumstances.  

You are a big advocate of personal responsibility.  Respectfully tell mom to make her suicide arrangements in advance.  Or take her to Oregon or a country where physician assisted suicide is legal.

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4 hours ago, cmilliken said:

Good luck with your mom.  Mine passed away a few years ago.

Start today working on her finances (if you haven't already).  Medicaid look back in 5 years.

If she is truly a quality over quantity of life, get her to give you a medical power of attorney and get her to fill out a "do not resuscitate" order.

Avoid Dialysis unless it's going to lead to an actual 'cure'. 

 

Commercial dialysis clinics an private ambulance services will hate you for that.  Big money in dialysis, I have transported people that were losing a foot, then the leg below the knee, then above the knee etc, but they still needed their dialysis to prolong their miserable life because Medicare pays for it. 

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Thanks.  Don't get me wrong.  She's still fine and self-sufficient.  But I can see her declining much more rapidly than in just the few years before.  I frankly surprised she's still alive with as much as she still smokes. 

Speaking of smoking, I know cancer sucks, but I honestly have little sympathy for those who continue to do their bodies harm even when they know its bad for them (just like with obesity and diabetes) and then they demand the health care system vis a vis the US taxpayers to spend exorbitant amounts of money to care for them to maybe give them a month or two or a year or two.  Sorry, you rolled the dice and crapped out.  I don't believe in consequence free choices.

Excuse me, I am a smoker and I haven't made any such demands, nor will I. If I get lung cancer and a death sentence, I know plenty of doctors that will provide me with a syringe and enough insulin to allow me a relatively quick and painless trip to the crematorium.

I am however eternally grateful to those such as yourself that live so impeccably that you are sure whatever you die from will be of no fault whatsoever of yours.  Well fucking done. I am in awe of your obvious superiority.

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1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

Priorities.  My grandparents lived in different cities and states.  Using that as a reason to not care for your loved ones is a cop out.  

I don’t understand how someone who is unwilling to care for their loved ones expects others to do it perfectly.

Your combination of narrow ignorance and self righteousness is a really nasty combination.

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I did a quick scan of citations of six semi random homes in Wisconsin. Most had citations for quality of care( bedsores are an example but not specified) Most had administrative/records violations.  Most had other violations . See dhs.wi if you are curious.

My take away is that these homes might get cited for every instance. One category of citation was a "Care plan for each resident" not in place. Remember, hospitals send 'em out as soon as possible, often to a nursing and rehabilitation home. I imagine it could take a day or three to assemble such a plan.

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6 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

keep diggin' warbird.

Why,just sharing some nursing home citation info. Not making a point in any way.OP is about eldercare.

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18 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

based on your takeaways I think you are stupid or a troll

Both actually.

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6 hours ago, warbird said:

Someone in thier 40s or 50s should be able to go a couple months without a paycheck, hell, in,just a few more years they will be retiring.

You, sir, are a privileged twit.  

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On 12/28/2017 at 1:51 PM, warbird said:

When a parent is failing I would assume kids are in thier 50's ??????

If kids in thier 50s are barely keeping heads above water.........

You have any clue what college costs?

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10 hours ago, soak_ed said:

I agree with you except one point. The bit about somebody smothering her with a pillow. My father got old and infirm and a little soft in the head toward the end.  Before that point my father, brother, sister and I were talking about end of life issues and my father basically demand one of us put him out of his misery if it came to that.  We laid into him but good.  Nobody has the right to demand that someone else kill them. I don't care what the reason, barring being in the middle of nowhere (an unlikely scenario), imagine trying to kill your parent. I don't care how ill they are, it isn't in human nature to do that.  I wish I could have smothered my mother as she laid in the bed screaming, under the influence of the malignant tumor that was killing her.   I think it is absolutely wrong to make such a request of another person.  To even put them in that position is completely unfair, the desire to help and loyalty to the parent, vs basic human instinct.  If my daughter wants to kill me, that's her choice, I will never ask her, let alone demand that she do it.  In addition to the moral an psychological implications, there are legal ramifications too.  It is illegal in every state for a layperson to kill another person under those circumstances.  

You are a big advocate of personal responsibility.  Respectfully tell mom to make her suicide arrangements in advance.  Or take her to Oregon or a country where physician assisted suicide is legal.

we've just passed legislation here in Vic.

Voluntary assisted dying bill.

It's moderate sensible and compassionate

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-22/euthanasia-victorian-parliament-passes-assisted-dying-laws/9156016

 

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46 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

You have any clue what college costs?

Look at his writing.

Want to reconsider your question?

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And to update the American situation, it's not just Oregon  -  it's also Montana, Washington, Vermont, California, Colorado, and D.C.

I've always thought it was weird that anyone opposes the right to die; that it's even an issue for debate. 

I have RIGHT to live.  But without the right to die...life's not a right, it's just a duty / obligation.  Duh.

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11 hours ago, soak_ed said:

Excuse me, I am a smoker and I haven't made any such demands, nor will I. If I get lung cancer and a death sentence, I know plenty of doctors that will provide me with a syringe and enough insulin to allow me a relatively quick and painless trip to the crematorium.

Yeah, but you are the exception.  There's literally millions of smokers in the US who will continue to smoke and then expect the very best care until they die from our healthcare system.  I'm more than happy for you to pay higher insurance rates if you want to continue smoking, but I'm not interested in funding your disgusting habits.

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11 hours ago, warbird said:

Bittersweet?  Sorry

It is bittersweet.  I can’t imagine being dumped into a care facility during a time when I really needed my family.  Of course there ARE instances when that isn’t possible but I hope if my time comes my family will be there fore me.  

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13 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, but you are the exception.  There's literally millions of smokers in the US who will continue to smoke and then expect the very best care until they die from our healthcare system.  I'm more than happy for you to pay higher insurance rates if you want to continue smoking, but I'm not interested in funding your disgusting habits.

It’s a disease, Jeff.  We need to provide walk-in no questions asked care for them.  

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

You have any clue what college costs?

If you haven’t covered your university debt by the time you are 40 or 50 something is amiss.

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32 minutes ago, frenchie said:

And to update the American situation, it's not just Oregon  -  it's also Montana, Washington, Vermont, California, Colorado, and D.C.

I've always thought it was weird that anyone opposes the right to die; that it's even an issue for debate. 

I have RIGHT to live.  But without the right to die...life's not a right, it's just a duty / obligation.  Duh.

You have a right to die.  We all have a right to die.  

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We're ALL going to die whether we have a right to it or not.  I just want the right to die on my own terms.  

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17 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

If you haven’t covered your university debt by the time you are 40 or 50 something is amiss.

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

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40 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

It is bittersweet.  I can’t imagine being dumped into a care facility during a time when I really needed my family.  Of course there ARE instances when that isn’t possible but I hope if my time comes my family will be there fore me.  

and I would hope not to be as selfish as to wish myself on my kids.

I have made plans for my care that don't burden my children..a self contained flat and wage for a live in carer. I just hope my kids will want to pop in once a week.

Fortunately excellent at home care and support is provided here to all who need it by our Government. Cleaners, help with shopping and mobility, nursing, even podiatry, social outings and physio.

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44 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, but you are the exception.  There's literally millions of smokers in the US who will continue to smoke and then expect the very best care until they die from our healthcare system.  I'm more than happy for you to pay higher insurance rates if you want to continue smoking, but I'm not interested in funding your disgusting habits.

Did you take your “I’m gonna be a bigger asshole” pill today or something? From a short perusal (GIYF), taxes on ciggies is higher than the cost of care AND the poor bastards live shorter lives so overall HC cost per smoker is less than cost for a healthy asshole like yourself who lingers on for years.

You’re becoming Moderate. 

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Did you take your “I’m gonna be a bigger asshole” pill today or something? From a short perusal (GIYF), taxes on ciggies is higher than the cost of care AND the poor bastards live shorter lives so overall HC cost per smoker is less than cost for a healthy asshole like yourself who lingers on for years.

You’re becoming Moderate. 

I've always been moderate.  Oh... you mean with a cap "M".  ;)

And don't even get me started on OFF's (obese fat fucks).  

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Just now, Shootist Jeff said:

I've always been moderate.  Oh... you mean with a cap "M".  ;)

And don't even get me started on OFF's (obese fat fucks).  

Same thing. They die sooner. That’s cheaper.

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11 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Did you take your “I’m gonna be a bigger asshole” pill today or something? From a short perusal (GIYF), taxes on ciggies is higher than the cost of care AND the poor bastards live shorter lives so overall HC cost per smoker is less than cost for a healthy asshole like yourself who lingers on for years.

You’re becoming Moderate. 

a pack of 20 is between $20-25 here..the Tax is around $14 plus $2 sales tax. Yep..smokers pay.

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46 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I've always been moderate.  Oh... you mean with a cap "M".  ;)

And don't even get me started on OFF's (obese fat fucks).  

more identity politics from jeff, how cute.

 

I take it Jeff doesn't remember 1996? Because there was a major candidate for President (guess the party!) who didn't think cigarettes were addictive back then, despite widespread scientific consensus. In exchange for money, his party pandered to the same people you are now shitting on "because they should know better".

I love good conservative irony.

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

When you are not at work you care for your parents.  Your kids care for them.  Your siblings. Their kids.  Priorities.

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1 minute ago, Rockdog said:

When you are not at work you care for your parents.  Your kids care for them.  Your siblings. Their kids.  Priorities.

So you envisage a whole pyramid of people supporting your old carcass?

Why does this not surprise me?

Beware future winters and ice floes :D

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20 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We've both spoken about it and she says NO WAY she will go to a nursing home.  She was a career nurse and specialized in geriatric care.  She started off in Miami working as a home care nurse tending to the elderly on South Beach back before south beach was a "thing".  Then she got into managing and running nursing homes as the chief nurse manager.  Later, she was the "hammer" and was the traveling Quality Assurance nurse that would go in and inspect homes in the corporation for rules compliance.  She said even the best funded homes are a challenge.  You just can't be 100% perfect unless you have a really boutique home with very few residents where the fess are outrageous.  Anything else and the level of care is often directly proportional to the amount of involvement of the family. 

I was with you until that last sentence.

Even at the top level, knowing that the family WILL show up regularly makes a difference in care. But enough from my file of things I know, but should not. Let's just say Rockdog is absolutely right about that point and I hope none of you find it out.

14 hours ago, soak_ed said:

I agree with you except one point. The bit about somebody smothering her with a pillow. My father got old and infirm and a little soft in the head toward the end.  Before that point my father, brother, sister and I were talking about end of life issues and my father basically demand one of us put him out of his misery if it came to that.  We laid into him but good.  Nobody has the right to demand that someone else kill them. I don't care what the reason, barring being in the middle of nowhere (an unlikely scenario), imagine trying to kill your parent. I don't care how ill they are, it isn't in human nature to do that.

At one point recently, smothering my mother in law crossed my mind. She was miserable, my wife was more so, and the only thing that would solve both problems was going to be her death. I thought for half a second about the reality of actually doing that and discarded the idea. It's not in me.

It could come up again. My mother made the exact same request as Jeff's.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yeah, but you are the exception.  There's literally millions of smokers in the US who will continue to smoke and then expect the very best care until they die from our healthcare system.  I'm more than happy for you to pay higher insurance rates if you want to continue smoking, but I'm not interested in funding your disgusting habits.

Yeah, well that's a dick move to take out the other half of what I said and not respond to the real point.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We're ALL going to die whether we have a right to it or not.  I just want the right to die on my own terms.  

Nice but you don't always get a choice.

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

I am 62 and I am helping my daughter get through college.  Both of my parents are dead, so there's that.

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48 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Even at the top level, knowing that the family WILL show up regularly makes a difference in care. But enough from my file of things I know, but should not. Let's just say Rockdog is absolutely right about that point and I hope none of you find it out.

This is actually very important, both from a practical aspect and an empathy aspect.  The caregivers themselves are under a lot of emotional pressure - they have a dozen 'moms' all needing help, all complaining about the food, all needing medical care, etc..  The 'fear of retribution if they do something wrong' is a motivator but the fact that SOMEONE cares also plays a roll and helps humanize the client.  The average 'nursing home social worker' has 140 or so clients.  140.  140 / 160 working hours a month  = 50 or so minutes per month of attention.  You want that 50 minutes to be about 'Ms. Johnson', not 'random client #14'.

My mom use to always joke about 'when I get old blah blah...'.   Depending on the circumstance, there are ways to die with a certain level of dignity.  That's why I made the comment about dialysis.

At the end of the day, Patient + Doctor trumps State.  The most critical thing is to have the hard conversations BEFORE you're totally unable to make choices.  That includes finding a doctor that's willing to help you along the process.  Virtually no doctor is is going to 'kill you' but most diseases have a pretty predictable trajectory and there's ways of dragging out the various stages.  You want to drag out the good stages, not the bad ones.  That requires understanding and communication up front.  Otherwise, the medical profession is trained and obligated to drag out ALL the stages, as best as they are able. 

At the end of her life, my sister and I could have extended my Mom's life by maybe another month through 'aggressive treatment' including things like dialysis.  At that point, we'd been talking about the moment of choice for around seven years and we knew it was time and spent our efforts saying goodbye instead.

 

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8 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

I am 62 and I am helping my daughter get through college.  Both of my parents are dead, so there's that.

And I've got two of em at Uni..But no fees (for now) so there is that.

 

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24 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Otherwise, the medical profession is trained and obligated to drag out ALL the stages, as best as they are able. 

This was the wall we crashed into when we quite suddenly went from having a 95 year old who could walk, eat, bathe, shit, etc with little problem to a dying woman who could do nothing and needed hospice.

That training includes never, ever giving up and they are extremely stubborn on that point. It's a good thing until it's not.

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4 hours ago, Rockdog said:

If you haven’t covered your university debt by the time you are 40 or 50 something is amiss.

You know that people have kids right? And they send them to college? Some of us value education, and are willing to pay for it for our kids. Please tell me you're not this dumb.

In my case, I was 48 when my oldest started and will be 55 when my youngest graduates. 

I am a fairly typical parent of college-aged kids, age-wise.

Maybe you aren't planning to send yours to school so you aren't aware of this?

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
4 hours ago, Rockdog said:

If you haven’t covered your university debt by the time you are 40 or 50 something is amiss.

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

Of course he is. He thinks it's a completely reasonable position that you should be willing to lose your job - and by extension lose your health insurance and maybe end up defaulting on your mortgage and making your kids drop out of college in order to take care of aging parents.  So we can cut regulations and make sure nursing homes are not required to actually take care of your parents anymore even when they've been paid to do it.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Did you take your “I’m gonna be a bigger asshole” pill today or something? From a short perusal (GIYF), taxes on ciggies is higher than the cost of care AND the poor bastards live shorter lives so overall HC cost per smoker is less than cost for a healthy asshole like yourself who lingers on for years.

You’re becoming Moderate. 

I've always been moderate.  Oh... you mean with a cap "M".  ;)

And don't even get me started on OFF's (obese fat fucks).  

I was about to say, if you want to see Jeff go full asshole, get him started on obesity. You will REALLY hear a stunning lack of compassion.

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2 hours ago, Rockdog said:
3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

When you are not at work you care for your parents.  Your kids care for them.  Your siblings. Their kids.  Priorities.

What fucking reality do you live in?

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

So you envisage a whole pyramid of people supporting your old carcass?

Why does this not surprise me?

Beware future winters and ice floes :D

No kidding. If I had a dad like Rockdog the temptation to leave his senile, selfish grouchy ass off at a dog track would be huge.

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43 minutes ago, cmilliken said:
1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Even at the top level, knowing that the family WILL show up regularly makes a difference in care. But enough from my file of things I know, but should not. Let's just say Rockdog is absolutely right about that point and I hope none of you find it out.

This is actually very important, both from a practical aspect and an empathy aspect.  The caregivers themselves are under a lot of emotional pressure - they have a dozen 'moms' all needing help, all complaining about the food, all needing medical care, etc..  The 'fear of retribution if they do something wrong' is a motivator but the fact that SOMEONE cares also plays a roll and helps humanize the client.  The average 'nursing home social worker' has 140 or so clients.  140.  140 / 160 working hours a month  = 50 or so minutes per month of attention.  You want that 50 minutes to be about 'Ms. Johnson', not 'random client #14'.

My point was that this can be true even if you are not dealing with an "average" nursing home.

Money can't buy you love, no matter how big the pile of money.

Even loving and empathetic staff only have so much to give and some of these people need essentially nonstop care.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

This is actually very important, both from a practical aspect and an empathy aspect.  The caregivers themselves are under a lot of emotional pressure - they have a dozen 'moms' all needing help, all complaining about the food, all needing medical care, etc..  The 'fear of retribution if they do something wrong' is a motivator but the fact that SOMEONE cares also plays a roll and helps humanize the client.  The average 'nursing home social worker' has 140 or so clients.  140.  140 / 160 working hours a month  = 50 or so minutes per month of attention.  You want that 50 minutes to be about 'Ms. Johnson', not 'random client #14'.

My mom use to always joke about 'when I get old blah blah...'.   Depending on the circumstance, there are ways to die with a certain level of dignity.  That's why I made the comment about dialysis.

At the end of the day, Patient + Doctor trumps State.  The most critical thing is to have the hard conversations BEFORE you're totally unable to make choices.  That includes finding a doctor that's willing to help you along the process.  Virtually no doctor is is going to 'kill you' but most diseases have a pretty predictable trajectory and there's ways of dragging out the various stages.  You want to drag out the good stages, not the bad ones.  That requires understanding and communication up front.  Otherwise, the medical profession is trained and obligated to drag out ALL the stages, as best as they are able. 

At the end of her life, my sister and I could have extended my Mom's life by maybe another month through 'aggressive treatment' including things like dialysis.  At that point, we'd been talking about the moment of choice for around seven years and we knew it was time and spent our efforts saying goodbye instead.

 

That's all well and good. But if you reach the point where you NEED to rely on a care facility for a loved one...it sure would be nice to know that that facility will be held culpable if they decide not to do their damned jobs. That's where this conversation started - easing regulations on nursing homes to remove financial penalties for failure to comply with proper standards of care.

Rockdog asserts that nursing home should be allowed to be shitty and not penalized for it since everyone's family can easily drop their entire lives to take care of the parents instead. As usual, he can't see beyond his own circumstances to have a single ounce of compassion for anyone that is not just like him.

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5 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

My point was that this can be true even if you are not dealing with an "average" nursing home.

Money can't buy you love, no matter how big the pile of money.

Even loving and empathetic staff only have so much to give and some of these people need essentially nonstop care.

 

 

so back to the subject then..money can't buy you love..but regulations can ensure a properly qualified staff to guest ratio.

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10 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

So we can cut regulations and make sure nursing homes are not required to actually take care of your parents anymore even when they've been paid to do it.

Someone please quote this so BJ will see it.

BJ, no pile of paper, whether it's regulations or money, will make as much difference as family actually showing up regularly.

Rockdog is really right that it's about priorities. You could sell the boat and you and your wife could go back to work near to your parents. I'm not suggesting you do it, just telling you that showing up regularly matters.

I didn't quit my job nor give up a better one to move in with my parents when that became a good idea. But my brother did.

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Just now, Uncooperative Tom said:

Someone please quote this so BJ will see it.

BJ, no pile of paper, whether it's regulations or money, will make as much difference as family actually showing up regularly.

Rockdog is really right that it's about priorities. You could sell the boat and you and your wife could go back to work near to your parents. I'm not suggesting you do it, just telling you that showing up regularly matters.

I didn't quit my job nor give up a better one to move in with my parents when that became a good idea. But my brother did.

No shit, really? Thank you, Captain Obvious.

 

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

so back to the subject then..money can't buy you love..but regulations can ensure a properly qualified staff to guest ratio.

At least one staffer probably needs to be qualified at interpreting the 50 or so pages of new regulations that appear daily, not to mention the court cases that end up defining those.

Gee, I wonder if there are any  counterproductive, useless, intrusive, or otherwise harmful regulations in any of those daily piles? Nah, no such thing.

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7 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

At least one staffer probably needs to be qualified at interpreting the 50 or so pages of new regulations that appear daily, not to mention the court cases that end up defining those.

Gee, I wonder if there are any  counterproductive, useless, intrusive, or otherwise harmful regulations in any of those daily piles? Nah, no such thing.

well we're kind of arguing about angels on the head of a pin seeing that as usual, details are pretty vague.

All I'm saying is that anywhere one has vulnerable people and profit motive..or even without a profit motive, regulations are required.

About what aspects of these enterprises? I don't know..and I doubt Trump does either.

All regulations should be regularly overhauled, they should also be flexible..unless Nursing homes are like Ikea kits,,all the same.

Regulations anywhere can be good or bad..stifle innovation or provide a safety net.

Simplest thing is for the regulator in this instance to actually provide the nursing homes with a "mentor"..someone assigned to them for them to work with, to ensure they are absolutely compliant where they need to be and who will assist them to work around difficulties with the best outcome for the residents.

Sadly such "case managers" don't come cheap if you want them to be honest and effective..they also need to be securely employed if they are going to be able to build and keep working relationships..and Americans seem to hate paying public servants.

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

They gave what, 20, 22 years of.their life for you and a couple of months is too much to ask? That sir(madam) is a good LIBRUL....

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40 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

so back to the subject then..money can't buy you love..but regulations can ensure a properly qualified staff to guest ratio.

What is the ratio? 1:1? 5:1?20:1?

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43 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

That's all well and good. But if you reach the point where you NEED to rely on a care facility for a loved one...it sure would be nice to know that that facility will be held culpable if they decide not to do their damned jobs. That's where this conversation started - easing regulations on nursing homes to remove financial penalties for failure to comply with proper standards of care.

Rockdog asserts that nursing home should be allowed to be shitty and not penalized for it since everyone's family can easily drop their entire lives to take care of the parents instead. As usual, he can't see beyond his own circumstances to have a single ounce of compassion for anyone that is not just like him.

So......fine the piss out of the facility for serving warm jello and they have to reduce staff to cover the fine.......

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4 minutes ago, warbird said:

They gave what, 20, 22 years of.their life for you and a couple of months is too much to ask? That sir(madam) is a good LIBRUL....

My father has been completely dependent on others for about 5 years now. I've purchased his house. He has a live in assistant. If I was to quit my job to "take care" of him, we'd have to sell his house and kick out the assistant. So fuck off. couple of months. fucking wanker.

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56 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

What fucking reality do you live in?

He lives in the reality I lived for 18 months. We took unpaid FMLA. We postponed vacations. We put off home and yard projects. That is what conservatives do...

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11 hours ago, Lark said:

You, sir, are a privileged twit.  

I am priveledged why?. Cuz I carried a lunch to work most every day to save a buck? Cuz I saved in 401 or ROTHs? Cuz I bought used cars and maintained them my self? Cuz I learned plumbing and electrical to repair, restore or remodel my homes? Cuz I didnt refinance mortgages for frills and fippery? Tell me exactly why I am proveledged except that I had parents worth taking care of? It is a little sad that maybe you don't.

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Before we go back to yelling at each other, I'd make a plug for the following book:

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-How-Let-Everyones-Questions-ebook/dp/B001GS7MI8

I got it originally as a pamphlet (28 pages) about 8 years ago but it's one of the better explanations of how people die and what to expect.  If I was a big government guy, I'd make it required reading but since i'm not, I'll just say that I recommend reading it.  PM if you want more details.

 

 

scan.jpg

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15 minutes ago, warbird said:

He lives in the reality I lived for 18 months. We took unpaid FMLA. We postponed vacations. We put off home and yard projects. That is what conservatives do...

so you sold your kids down the creek to look after your parents...or..you are in a different financial world than most...

If I gave up my job to look after my mum, we could survive..(4 of us) for maybe 3 months before going into debt..8 months..I'm 50,000 in debt..12 months..cant pay off the debt..this can go on for years...what next..sell the house to pay off a year or twos loans taken at credit card rates? ? buy cheaper?? 

You've just written off that generational upward mobility you righties are so sure is an achievable dream..and plunged my kids back into working class debt laden student class. 

Conservatives like you are just plain stupid.

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26 minutes ago, warbird said:

He lives in the reality I lived for 18 months. We took unpaid FMLA. We postponed vacations. We put off home and yard projects. That is what conservatives do...

No, what conservatives do is sit back in their easy chair and sneer at those who weren't lucky enough to be born in the right place at the right time.  If they are true conservatives, then they step on the neck of the unfortunate individual while screaming at them to "Get up, you lazy motherfucker."  How do you sleep at night you miserable piece of fecal matter?  Yeah, I don't doubt you worked hard to get where you are now but there was a lot of luck involved too.  You were born white in a time where it was possible to get a job, get an education at a reasonable price and have a reasonable expectation that you could work in the same job your entire career.  Instead of thanking your lucky stars, you chose to think somehow you did all that yourself just because you are so superior to those less much less fortunate than you.  It is smarter to be lucky than it is lucky to be smart.

Take a moment and step out of your insular bubble. You didn't take a second mortgage, you put off vacations, you have a 401K, you deferred yard projects.  My god you poor thing, such sacrifices you made.  Add for an entire 18 months, the horror.  I sincerely hope you didn't run out of Grey Poupon.  Are you so willfully ignorant that you think many people even have a house, the extra money to put away for retirement, a job that offers paid vacation?  Many people don't even have the time to dream of such luxuries.  They are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table.  Because assholes like you say "Fuck you, I got mine, why should I give a shit about anyone else."  Too bad there is no hell because you belong there when you die you miserable fuck.

 

Here is a photo of Warbird narrowly averting a crisis.

5a464c4c2d77f_GreyPoupon.jpg.a628e1776ac38d005630e5780b56884b.jpg

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9 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

No, what conservatives do is sit back in their easy chair and sneer at those who weren't lucky enough to be born in the right place at the right time.  If they are true conservatives, then they step on the neck of the unfortunate individual while screaming at them to "Get up, you lazy motherfucker."  How do you sleep at night you miserable piece of fecal matter?  Yeah, I don't doubt you worked hard to get where you are now but there was a lot of luck involved too.  You were born white in a time where it was possible to get a job, get an education at a reasonable price and have a reasonable expectation that you could work in the same job your entire career.  Instead of thanking your lucky stars, you chose to think somehow you did all that yourself just because you are so superior to those less much less fortunate than you.  It is smarter to be lucky than it is lucky to be smart.

Take a moment and step out of your insular bubble. You didn't take a second mortgage, you put off vacations, you have a 401K, you deferred yard projects.  My god you poor thing, such sacrifices you made.  Add for an entire 18 months, the horror.  I sincerely hope you didn't run out of Grey Poupon.  Are you so willfully ignorant that you think many people even have a house, the extra money to put away for retirement, a job that offers paid vacation?  Many people don't even have the time to dream of such luxuries.  They are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table.  Because assholes like you say "Fuck you, I got mine, why should I give a shit about anyone else."  Too bad there is no hell because you belong there when you die you miserable fuck.

 

Here is a photo of Warbird narrowly averting a crisis.

5a464c4c2d77f_GreyPoupon.jpg.a628e1776ac38d005630e5780b56884b.jpg

Insular bubble? No.... I enlisted 4 years in the USMC. I was actively recruited by a major aerospace firm. I did night school on the GI bill and company programs. We relocated 12 years later to family friendly area from LA when we adopted our first daughter. The new job was 1/2 the pay$. 16 years later went looking for  a new job. Starting at the bottom, night shift machine operator. Went on to develop a patented applied for chemical purification process guide by Rapscallion. Developed a number of test methods for our unique products, designed 4 new lab areas and retired early from there 6 months ago as Senior R&D Tech. That's not luck. 

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38 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

No, what conservatives do is sit back in their easy chair and sneer at those who weren't lucky enough to be born in the right place at the right time.  If they are true conservatives, then they step on the neck of the unfortunate individual while screaming at them to "Get up, you lazy motherfucker."  How do you sleep at night you miserable piece of fecal matter?  Yeah, I don't doubt you worked hard to get where you are now but there was a lot of luck involved too.  You were born white in a time where it was possible to get a job, get an education at a reasonable price and have a reasonable expectation that you could work in the same job your entire career.  Instead of thanking your lucky stars, you chose to think somehow you did all that yourself just because you are so superior to those less much less fortunate than you.  It is smarter to be lucky than it is lucky to be smart.

Take a moment and step out of your insular bubble. You didn't take a second mortgage, you put off vacations, you have a 401K, you deferred yard projects.  My god you poor thing, such sacrifices you made.  Add for an entire 18 months, the horror.  I sincerely hope you didn't run out of Grey Poupon.  Are you so willfully ignorant that you think many people even have a house, the extra money to put away for retirement, a job that offers paid vacation?  Many people don't even have the time to dream of such luxuries.  They are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table.  Because assholes like you say "Fuck you, I got mine, why should I give a shit about anyone else."  Too bad there is no hell because you belong there when you die you miserable fuck.

 

Here is a photo of Warbird narrowly averting a crisis.

5a464c4c2d77f_GreyPoupon.jpg.a628e1776ac38d005630e5780b56884b.jpg

We heard about those people who were desperate and so f*cking angry at the dire situation they were in electing a President who was going to take care of them.

How does that square with warbird's assessment of people just having to tighten their belts a little more?

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Just now, warbird said:

Insular bubble? No.... I enlisted 4 years in the USMC. I was actively recruited by a major aerospace firm. I did night school on the GI bill and company programs. We relocated 12 years later to family friendly area from LA when we adopted our first daughter. The new job was 1/2 the pay$. 16 years later went looking for  a new job. Starting at the bottom, night shift machine operator. Went on to develop a patented applied for chemical purification process guide by Rapscallion. Developed a number of test methods for our unique products, designed 4 new lab areas and retired early from there 6 months ago as Senior R&D Tech. That's not luck. 

Congratulations:rolleyes:..You're not exactly unique though...all that you have..can be lost in the blink of an eye...so don't get too comfy.the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune know no politics.

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Insular bubble? No.... I enlisted 4 years in the USMC. I was actively recruited by a major aerospace firm. I did night school on the GI bill and company programs. We relocated 12 years later to family friendly area from LA when we adopted our first daughter. The new job was 1/2 the pay$. 16 years later went looking for  a new job. Starting at the bottom, night shift machine operator. Went on to develop a patented applied for chemical purification process guide by Rapscallion. Developed a number of test methods for our unique products, designed 4 new lab areas and retired early from there 6 months ago as Senior R&D Tech. That's not luck. 

Yes, it is luck you ignorant fuck.  If you weren't born white, and at the right time, none of that would have happened.  You started with luck, built on it and continued to be assisted by luck along the way.  I am not saying you didn't work hard but you had opportunities available to you due to your luck, that aren't afforded to others that weren't so fortunate.  Truly intelligent successful people know they didn't get where they are without a lot of luck and a lot of help along the way. To say anything else is delusional narcissism. 

I am not denying your accomplishments, I am just asking you to stop telling me it was all your doing.  I too was born white at the right time and place.   I had many lucky breaks in my life.  When I went back in the Army 12 years after my first 2 year enlistment, I had a stellar career track that was cut short by a medical discharge after 6 years.  In spite of my college degree obtained with the help of my GI Bill benefits from my first enlistment, by the time I was discharged, my career opportunities were already getting limited by my age and my time in the military.  When I attended college, the GI Bill paid about $300.00 a month. My tuition was about $400.00 a semester.  My daughter is currently attending my alma mater, tuition is around $12,000 a year, even counting for inflation, significantly more than what I had to pay.  Luck goes both ways. 

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17 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

Yes, it is luck you ignorant fuck.  If you weren't born white, and at the right time, none of that would have happened.  You started with luck, built on it and continued to be assisted by luck along the way.  I am not saying you didn't work hard but you had opportunities available to you due to your luck, that aren't afforded to others that weren't so fortunate.  Truly intelligent successful people know they didn't get where they are without a lot of luck and a lot of help along the way. To say anything else is delusional narcissism. 

I am not denying your accomplishments, I am just asking you to stop telling me it was all your doing.  I too was born white at the right time and place.   I had many lucky breaks in my life.  When I went back in the Army 12 years after my first 2 year enlistment, I had a stellar career track that was cut short by a medical discharge after 6 years.  In spite of my college degree obtained with the help of my GI Bill benefits from my first enlistment, by the time I was discharged, my career opportunities were already getting limited by my age and my time in the military.  When I attended college, the GI Bill paid about $300.00 a month. My tuition was about $400.00 a semester.  My daughter is currently attending my alma mater, tuition is around $12,000 a year, even counting for inflation, significantly more than what I had to pay.  Luck goes both ways. 

Got it, 80 % of the US population was born with outrageous luck.

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7 hours ago, Rockdog said:

You have a right to die.  We all have a right to die.  

See?  No-brainer.  Even you and I agree on it. 

But every State except Oregon,  Montana, Washington, Vermont, California, Colorado, and D.C... has enough busybody meddling shitheads to legally deny us legal recognition of that right.

I can't even wrap my head around their "logic".

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48 minutes ago, warbird said:

Insular bubble? No.... I enlisted 4 years in the USMC. I was actively recruited by a major aerospace firm. I did night school on the GI bill and company programs. We relocated 12 years later to family friendly area from LA when we adopted our first daughter. The new job was 1/2 the pay$. 16 years later went looking for  a new job. Starting at the bottom, night shift machine operator. Went on to develop a patented applied for chemical purification process guide by Rapscallion. Developed a number of test methods for our unique products, designed 4 new lab areas and retired early from there 6 months ago as Senior R&D Tech. That's not luck. 

Too bad you didn't develop any critical thinking skills in all that.

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7 minutes ago, warbird said:

Got it, 80 % of the US population was born with outrageous luck.

When you look at things from a global perspective, that number gets mighty close to 100%.

Maybe you wish you could trade places with a child born in Sudan and show us how your work ethic will provide with the life you currently enjoy.

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22 minutes ago, warbird said:

Got it, 80 % of the US population was born with outrageous luck.

Your ignorance far exceeds any value you might bring to this forum.  Pull your head out of your ass and look around.  Eighty percent, hahahahahahahaha!  Fourteen percent of the population lives below the poverty line alone and twenty nine percent are considered lower class.  Lets just call that total forty five percent of the US population.  I don't know how you pulled your number out of your ass, with you head taking up so much space there.

You sucked off the government tit in the military.  You sucked off the government tit in college.  You certainly used tax payer funded infrastructure to build you career.  You networked with your fellow white males all through your career to your benefit because you were one of them.  Yeah, it was all you all right.  The same applies to the rest of your elk.  Clueless motherfucker.

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

I am priveledged why?. Cuz I carried a lunch to work most every day to save a buck? Cuz I saved in 401 or ROTHs? Cuz I bought used cars and maintained them my self? Cuz I learned plumbing and electrical to repair, restore or remodel my homes? Cuz I didnt refinance mortgages for frills and fippery? Tell me exactly why I am proveledged except that I had parents worth taking care of? It is a little sad that maybe you don't.

We have a lot in common, except attitude.   My impression from your posts is you aspire to be a member of the obsolete British parasite class.   

I purchased a business within three hours of my parents for this reason, even though it limited sailing choices and kept me away from big water.   They bought long term care insurance for this reason.   My brother hasn’t moved out of country, even though his wife’s is better, for this reason.   

Maybe it would be better to be a corporate drone.    Reality in a competitive field is I will find myself weak and vulnerable  if I don’t mostly work my 45-50 hour weeks.   There are large corporations and non for profits both willing to skim off the profits.   A business sale of this nature generally takes 8-18 months-if there are no major complications.    Bank of America would be happy to seize the business and building after half the debt is paid down.  They made the offer last month after THEY lost a mortgage payment for two weeks.  Since they won’t talk to my local bank, money transfer is a paper check.   It cleared but wasn’t applied.   I didn’t catch it like I did the month before when the post office allegedly lost it.    I am trying to limit financial damage and still spend weekends helping my parents.    I normally work partial days on half my weekends and often go back to check on something after my 10 hour shifts and on weekends.   If I could work from home I would replace myself with an AI.    FMLA only applies to government pansies and large companies that don’t decide you are expendable and add you to the next list of layoffs.    This is almost a new fiscal tax year, also when I get my lists of price increases.   I agreed months ago to give a key employee an extended absence in January to leave the country.   At that time no doctor nor hospice predicted my dad would be alive.  Meanwhile the long term care insurance demands more forms and proof, ignores the diagnoses provided, visits the house and ignores the oozing tumor sticking through the man laying in a hospital bed, and refuses to pay a penny.  

Reality is not always of ones own making.    Precautions only take one so far.  This is America, failure is an option unless you are a billionaire.

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2 hours ago, warbird said:

Insular bubble? No.... I enlisted 4 years in the USMC. I was actively recruited by a major aerospace firm. I did night school on the GI bill and company programs. We relocated 12 years later to family friendly area from LA when we adopted our first daughter. The new job was 1/2 the pay$. 16 years later went looking for  a new job. Starting at the bottom, night shift machine operator. Went on to develop a patented applied for chemical purification process guide by Rapscallion. Developed a number of test methods for our unique products, designed 4 new lab areas and retired early from there 6 months ago as Senior R&D Tech. That's not luck. 

That is a combination of luck and hard work.   Your industry could have faced a cyclical collapse beyond your control.   Your area could have had bad local government and faced collapse beyond your control, putting your business in an impossible spot.   You could have been outsourced to China or India.   A competitor could have been more efficient than your boss, and replaced your department in the takeover.   A venture capitalist could have acquired your business and sold it in pieces or left it to fail due to high debt.   All these things happen all the time to smart hard working people.  It’s human nature to write a fiction of worth to credit our successes and of outside powers to explain our failures.   The reality is both play a random role.   If you were born a bit earlier you might have died in one of our wars.   If you were born a bit later you might never have had opportunity and find yourself working two part time jobs without benefits in your sixties.   A lot of smart hard working people do,  if you were born a lot later your night shift job would have been done by a robot and you would have depended on food stamps.   You are nothing special, just lucky.    

My dad was very lucky to have a safe job where he could miss the day after each chemo.   He was smart to leave a poorly funded state university for a private one when he did, and very good at teaching,   He was also lucky not to be working a corporate job where he would have been forced into early retirement when his health failed and his productivity declined.   That made his brief retirement much more comfortable.   

A good friend was unlucky when a labor union strike crippled the foundry she worked for and another foundry took it over,   Her accounting job became redundant so she was unemployed.   The union workers were ironically fine.  She could see the ability of computers to soon do her old job.  Being a smart hard worker she earned a master’s, but Bush crashed the economy,   Than she got cancer and died.

Don’t kid yourself.   Anybody with the leisure time to play on a boat and the money to own  and maintain even an old boat is lucky.  The world didn’t owe you squat.   There are 7 billion hungry people, many are smarter, many are wiser, many are harder working.   

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

and I would hope not to be as selfish as to wish myself on my kids.

I have made plans for my care that don't burden my children..a self contained flat and wage for a live in carer. I just hope my kids will want to pop in once a week.

Fortunately excellent at home care and support is provided here to all who need it by our Government. Cleaners, help with shopping and mobility, nursing, even podiatry, social outings and physio.

I certainly don’t wish myself on my kids.  I wish they will want to care for me instead of dumping me off on strangers in a cold and strange place. 

I certainly hope they will help me shopping and cleaning.

i hope I die suddenly as my father did.

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3 hours ago, soak_ed said:
3 hours ago, warbird said:

Got it, 80 % of the US population was born with outrageous luck.

Your ignorance far exceeds any value you might bring to this forum.  Pull your head out of your ass and look around.  Eighty percent, hahahahahahahaha!  Fourteen percent of the population lives below the poverty line alone and twenty nine percent are considered lower class.  Lets just call that total forty five percent of the US population.  I don't know how you pulled your number out of your ass, with you head taking up so much space there.

You sucked off the government tit in the military.  You sucked off the government tit in college.  You certainly used tax payer funded infrastructure to build you career.  You networked with your fellow white males all through your career to your benefit because you were one of them.  Yeah, it was all you all right.  The same applies to the rest of your elk.  Clueless motherfucker.

No, you don't get it, W'bird really and truly succeeded ONLY because of his own hard work and intelligence.

He started out naked in the woods with sticks and rocks, no man ever built any single thing that he relied on. He dug up the iron ore and smelted it to make his own tools, and wove his own corporate-club neckties. That is why he is entitled to keep 101% of the fruits of his labors and to cast his aspersions on the rest of us lowly beings who exist in a socio-economic network dependent on others.

-DSK

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2 hours ago, Lark said:

That is a combination of luck and hard work.   Your industry could have faced a cyclical collapse beyond your control.   Your area could have had bad local government and faced collapse beyond your control, putting your business in an impossible spot.   You could have been outsourced to China or India.   A competitor could have been more efficient than your boss, and replaced your department in the takeover.   A venture capitalist could have acquired your business and sold it in pieces or left it to fail due to high debt.   All these things happen all the time to smart hard working people.  It’s human nature to write a fiction of worth to credit our successes and of outside powers to explain our failures.   The reality is both play a random role.   If you were born a bit earlier you might have died in one of our wars.   If you were born a bit later you might never have had opportunity and find yourself working two part time jobs without benefits in your sixties.   A lot of smart hard working people do,  if you were born a lot later your night shift job would have been done by a robot and you would have depended on food stamps.   You are nothing special, just lucky.    

My dad was very lucky to have a safe job where he could miss the day after each chemo.   He was smart to leave a poorly funded state university for a private one when he did, and very good at teaching,   He was also lucky not to be working a corporate job where he would have been forced into early retirement when his health failed and his productivity declined.   That made his brief retirement much more comfortable.   

A good friend was unlucky when a labor union strike crippled the foundry she worked for and another foundry took it over,   Her accounting job became redundant so she was unemployed.   The union workers were ironically fine.  She could see the ability of computers to soon do her old job.  Being a smart hard worker she earned a master’s, but Bush crashed the economy,   Than she got cancer and died.

Don’t kid yourself.   Anybody with the leisure time to play on a boat and the money to own  and maintain even an old boat is lucky.  The world didn’t owe you squat.   There are 7 billion hungry people, many are smarter, many are wiser, many are harder working.   

I don’t believe in the ‘luck’ thing. I have a couple of friends I grew up with -lived within couple blocks from each other-  who had similar family economic situations.  Two of them did not go to university and took menial jobs right out of school.   They are low end middle class to this day.  

Another is CEO of a well known multi-billion dollar per year company.  Hell of a nice guy liked by all but not very bright in his youth.

And regarding the 7 billion people who are smarter and more hard working than you - never confuse effort with results.

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