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Bus Driver

Fuck the Elderly and Infirm

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32 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, you don't get it, W'bird really and truly succeeded ONLY because of his own hard work and intelligence.

He started out naked in the woods with sticks and rocks, no man ever built any single thing that he relied on. He dug up the iron ore and smelted it to make his own tools, and wove his own corporate-club neckties. That is why he is entitled to keep 101% of the fruits of his labors and to cast his aspersions on the rest of us lowly beings who exist in a socio-economic network dependent on others.

-DSK

I cannot stand this attitude.  Of course we ALL rely on luck to a degree.  Who is claiming otherwise???  But the very nature of luck is that it is available to all of us.  I'm a firm believer in the ability to "make your own luck" through hard work, perseverance, good attitude and just sometimes eating a shit sandwich when needed.  

But taking the attitude that LUCK alone is what what gives white man priviledge is equally full of BS.  There's a shit ton of chronically poor white folk out there that somehow missed all that white privilege and luck.  There are far more poor whites in this country than poor blacks.  I guess no one told them they were lucky.

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

How much would he have, if he really had started off naked in the woods with nothing but sticks and rocks?

Also, please point out where I said anything about what I am entitled to? You don't know what I have done in life, or where I am situated, you're just making assholish assumptions.

-DSK

Well,  you are saying he’s entitled to all of the fruits of his labors.  If you believe he is not entitled to them then MUST believe you are entitled to determine who is - which is the same as YOU being entitled to them, asshole.

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

...     ...     ...

But taking the attitude that LUCK alone is what what gives white man priviledge is equally full of BS.  There's a shit ton of chronically poor white folk out there that somehow missed all that white privilege and luck.  There are far more poor whites in this country than poor blacks.  I guess no one told them they were lucky.

The harder you work, the luckier you get, usually.

Could you point out the part where I (or anybody else in this thread) said that it was SOLELY due to luck that any person is (or isn't) successful? You're right that there are a lot of poor white people. There are also more white people on Welfare, which seems to piss of certain types of people too.

-DSK

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24 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

If you don’t think being born in the US is a lucky break, you should leave this conversation to the adults.

Of course we are luckier than those born in Sudan.  Who's disputing that?  But sudan is not the topic.  Apples to Orangutans.  But among those born in the US, part of it is luck / part is effort.  Most of it is what you do with that "luck" in the first place.  There are those that squander it and there are those that make the best of it.  Why do some blacks get out of the hood and others don't???  Probably for the very same reason why some whites get out of the Appalachian hills (or Opioid infested suburbs) and others don't.  

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I cannot stand this attitude.  Of course we ALL rely on luck to a degree.  Who is claiming otherwise???  But the very nature of luck is that it is available to all of us.  I'm a firm believer in the ability to "make your own luck" through hard work, perseverance, good attitude and just sometimes eating a shit sandwich when needed.  

But taking the attitude that LUCK alone is what what gives white man priviledge is equally full of BS.  There's a shit ton of chronically poor white folk out there that somehow missed all that white privilege and luck.  There are far more poor whites in this country than poor blacks.  I guess no one told them they were lucky.

There ARE people in this world who’ve essentially had everything handed to them.  They are the ones who believe it’s the same for everyone else.  They are the center of the universe you know.

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7 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I cannot stand this attitude.  Of course we ALL rely on luck to a degree.  Who is claiming otherwise???  But the very nature of luck is that it is available to all of us.  I'm a firm believer in the ability to "make your own luck" through hard work, perseverance, good attitude and just sometimes eating a shit sandwich when needed.  

But taking the attitude that LUCK alone is what what gives white man priviledge is equally full of BS.  There's a shit ton of chronically poor white folk out there that somehow missed all that white privilege and luck.  There are far more poor whites in this country than poor blacks.  I guess no one told them they were lucky.

BS, the percentage of blacks that are poor is far greater than the percentage of whites that are poor.  

My view, we were running a 100m race and whites in the US by and large were given a 50m head start over blacks.  

Did you spell privilege two different ways to ensure one would be correct?

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The harder you work, the luckier you get, usually.

Could you point out the part where I (or anybody else in this thread) said that it was SOLELY due to luck that any person is (or isn't) successful? You're right that there are a lot of poor white people. There are also more white people on Welfare, which seems to piss of certain types of people too.

-DSK

So you are saying being born white is NOT lucky?  

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I cannot stand this attitude.  Of course we ALL rely on luck to a degree.  Who is claiming otherwise???  But the very nature of luck is that it is available to all of us.  I'm a firm believer in the ability to "make your own luck" through hard work, perseverance, good attitude and just sometimes eating a shit sandwich when needed.  

But taking the attitude that LUCK alone is what what gives white man priviledge is equally full of BS.  There's a shit ton of chronically poor white folk out there that somehow missed all that white privilege and luck.  There are far more poor whites in this country than poor blacks.  I guess no one told them they were lucky.

Sounds nice, but our system relies on socioeconomic stratification. We can’t all be well off unless you’re prepared for socialism. Pure capitalism will always result in a giant pyramid. 

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2 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

There ARE people in this world who’ve essentially had everything handed to them.  They are the ones who believe it’s the same for everyone else.  They are the center of the universe you know.

They have names like Ivanka and Jared and Eric...

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

BS, the percentage of blacks that are poor is far greater than the percentage of whites that are poor.  

My view, we were running a 100m race and whites in the US by and large were given a 50m head start over blacks.  

Did you spell privilege twice to ensure one would be correct?

It’s due to better parenting.  

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Just now, Rockdog said:

Well,  you are saying (not) he’s entitled to all of the fruits of his labors.  If you believe he is not entitled to them then MUST believe you are entitled to determine who is - which is the same as YOU being entitled to them, asshole.

???

I hope you're not this stupid and argumentative in real life.

He is entitled to pay into the system that enables his success......... the paved roads, the schools, the police, the fire dept, etc etc...... and a FAIR system is one that charges proportionate to the financial success of the individual. Same as I do, except that I pay a greater proportional share than Warren Buffet and Bill Gates and Donald Trump (and almost certainly, so do you)

-DSK

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Just now, Sean said:

Sounds nice, but our system relies on socioeconomic stratification. We can’t all be well off unless you’re prepared for socialism. Pure capitalism will always result in a giant pyramid. 

No pyramid means everyone is poor.

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44 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, you don't get it, W'bird really and truly succeeded ONLY because of his own hard work and intelligence.

He started out naked in the woods with sticks and rocks, no man ever built any single thing that he relied on. He dug up the iron ore and smelted it to make his own tools, and wove his own corporate-club neckties. That is why he is entitled to keep 101% of the fruits of his labors and to cast his aspersions on the rest of us lowly beings who exist in a socio-economic network dependent on others.

-DSK

Like all right wingers.

Pink Floyd said it very well over 40 years ago.

The right wingers take those lyrics seriously though - they don't get the sarcasm.

"Money"

Money, get away

Get a good job with more pay and you're O.K.
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money, get back
I'm all right, Jack, keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first-class traveling set
And I think I need a Learjet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're giving none away

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Just now, Rockdog said:

It’s due to better parenting.  

It's due to a lot of things.  So, were you lucky to have TWO good parents?  You don't call that an advantage over someone who didn't?

 

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8 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

Well,  you are saying he’s entitled to all of the fruits of his labors.  If you believe he is not entitled to them then MUST believe you are entitled to determine who is - which is the same as YOU being entitled to them, asshole.

If you transport your product on roads that I partly paid for then you better fuckin' believe I expect some of the fruits of his labour to be returned to society.

Just for example.

 

Asshole.

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

???

I hope you're not this stupid and argumentative in real life.

He is entitled to pay into the system that enables his success......... the paved roads, the schools, the police, the fire dept, etc etc...... and a FAIR system is one that charges proportionate to the financial success of the individual. Same as I do, except that I pay a greater proportional share than Warren Buffet and Bill Gates and Donald Trump (and almost certainly, so do you)

-DSK

And he’s done that, as we have, as our parents have.  

You (almost certainly) pay a greater proportional share than poor people.  Your getting fucked by both ends?   

You want everyone to pay even more so you don’t have to care for your dying loved ones?

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8 minutes ago, Rockdog said:
10 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

BS, the percentage of blacks that are poor is far greater than the percentage of whites that are poor.  

My view, we were running a 100m race and whites in the US by and large were given a 50m head start over blacks.  

Did you spell privilege twice to ensure one would be correct?

It’s due to better parenting.  

 

2 minutes ago, Rockdog said:

Two parent homes are better doesn’t matter what color.  

That's not what you said above.

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11 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Of course we are luckier than those born in Sudan.  Who's disputing that?  But sudan is not the topic.  Apples to Orangutans.  

Orangutans, are you fucking serious?  

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

If you transport your product on roads that I partly paid for then you better fuckin' believe I expect some of the fruits of his labour to be returned to society.

Just for example.

 

Asshole.

I see.  So if you quit high school and work a shit job your entire life - but make just enough to pay $1 in taxes YOU are entitled to some of the fruits of his labor?

if you worked shit jobs and didn’t make enough to pay taxes and recd a net return in taxes (you were actually paid tax dollars) YOU would not be entitled to the fruits of his labor (and good decision making skills)?

Asshole.

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It is baffling how some folks react to a statement they benefited from being born white in the USA by taking offense like someone said they didn’t work hard. 

This type of binary thinking is juvenile. 

You can have been lucky AND benefited by working hard to make the most of that luck. Those two are not diametrically oppositional. 

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Sucked off the gov't tit for being in the military???  YOU of all people should know that is a BS statement.  People who go into the military sacrifice a lot to do so and they work their asses off to get those benefits.  And those benefits are promised up front for a specific length of service.  So its beyond douchengenuousness to say that is sucking off the gov't tit.  Fuck you.  Too bad you never had to actually work for a living in the Army.  You apparently never got off your lazy ass sitting in your cushy hospital drinking coffee.  And I use tax payer infrastructure too to build my career and do other stuff.... because I pay my fucking taxes.  Therefore I'm entitled to it as much as the next swinging dick.  Last I checked, black middle class folk also pay taxes and I'm not aware of anyone preventing them from using the same tax-payer funded infrastructure to build their careers either.  There are lots of blacks in college.  Nothing stops them from forming their own networks.  Or tying into so called "white networks".  I have lots of black guys and gals in my network.  I just hired a sharp black kid.  He's my superstar so far.  He will be rewarded.  But not because he's black but because he's good.

Well, I guess the mercenary got triggered.  

I was in the Army twice, I didn't join for the benefits either time.  Of course someone with your outlook would do it for selfish reasons.  

You have no idea what I did.  I can tell you that I worked 40 + hour weeks in my primary job, mental health including after hours emergency on-call.  In my 8 years of service, I worked far more holidays than I ever had off.  I addition to that, I spent a few thousand hours of my own time as an EMT in the ER.  I have sat on my ass and helped people decide on a better choice then suicide, listened to children tell me how their father was fucking them, listened to wives tell me how their husband beat the shit out of them, along with all of the other stresses and problems humans suffer in life.  I have stood in a trauma room floor covered with blood trying to help save a life, sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't.  But we tried hard.  I stood on the platform and taught new soldiers how to do my job.  In addition to all of that I also played soldier, slept in the woods in a GP teeny and ate cold MREs.  Yes, I drank a lot of coffee, usually to keep me going through 16 hour days.  So I think I paid my dues.  When I got out of the military both times, I didn't feel entitled to anything.  I did my job and then some, they paid me and took pretty good care of me.  I was grateful for the experience and happy to serve.  The key word there is 'serve', not put in time with for the anticipation of some material reward.  The best reward to me was the hard won respect of my co-workers and superiors and a shitload of decorations for going above and beyond.  I know that all that sounds foreign to you because as humans we tend to believe that all people share our own values.  Obviously that isn't the case.

I worked with people with your attitude, I really didn't mind them as long as they didn't whine too much and pulled their fair share.  The nice thing about the military is it recognizes selfless service as well as selfish service, so in the end we were both winners.

 

Your last 4 statements are so telling about you and you don't even realize that it isn't anything positive.

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Just now, Bus Driver said:

It is baffling how some folks react to a statement they benefited from being born white in the USA by taking offense like someone said they didn’t work hard. 

This type of binary thinking is juvenile. 

You can have been lucky AND benefited by working hard to make the most of that luck. Those two are not diametrically oppositional. 

The offense is trying to use some made up bullshit as an excuse to take resources from people.  What happens in some third world country out in the woods has nothing to do with Americans born and raised into the same opportunities.  

You can teach a man to fish.  A man who doesn’t fish but is given fish by another is lucky.  The guy who fishes is not lucky.   In some countries a man literally must fish.  In other countries a man must figuratively fish.  Wave a manic wand and swap positions and in all likelihood they’re both fucked.

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10 minutes ago, soak_ed said:

Well, I guess the mercenary got triggered.  

I was in the Army twice, I didn't join for the benefits either time.  Of course someone with your outlook would do it for selfish reasons.  

You have no idea what I did.  I can tell you that I worked 40 + hour weeks in my primary job, mental health including after hours emergency on-call.  In my 8 years of service, I worked far more holidays than I ever had off.  I addition to that, I spent a few thousand hours of my own time as an EMT in the ER.  I have sat on my ass and helped people decide on a better choice then suicide, listened to children tell me how their father was fucking them, listened to wives tell me how their husband beat the shit out of them, along with all of the other stresses and problems humans suffer in life.  I have stood in a trauma room floor covered with blood trying to help save a life, sometimes we did, sometimes we didn't.  But we tried hard.  I stood on the platform and taught new soldiers how to do my job.  In addition to all of that I also played soldier, slept in the woods in a GP teeny and ate cold MREs.  Yes, I drank a lot of coffee, usually to keep me going through 16 hour days.  So I think I paid my dues.  When I got out of the military both times, I didn't feel entitled to anything.  I did my job and then some, they paid me and took pretty good care of me.  I was grateful for the experience and happy to serve.  The key word there is 'serve', not put in time with for the anticipation of some material reward.  The best reward to me was the hard won respect of my co-workers and superiors and a shitload of decorations for going above and beyond.  I know that all that sounds foreign to you because as humans we tend to believe that all people share our own values.  Obviously that isn't the case.

I worked with people with your attitude, I really didn't mind them as long as they didn't whine too much and pulled their fair share.  The nice thing about the military is it recognizes selfless service as well as selfish service, so in the end we were both winners.

 

Your last 4 statements are so telling about you and you don't even realize that it isn't anything positive.

Believing you are not  entitled to others ‘fruits’ but are entitled to determine who is is the same as being entitled to them. 

His last four sentences based on the context of ‘luck’ say nothing negative at all.

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1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

I see.  So if you quit high school and work a shit job your entire life - but make just enough to pay $1 in taxes YOU are entitled to some of the fruits of his labor?

if you worked shit jobs and didn’t make enough to pay taxes and recd a net return in taxes (you were actually paid tax dollars) YOU would not be entitled to the fruits of his labor (and good decision making skills)?

Asshole.

Now you making even less sense than usual.

Where did I say that I am entitled to anything from him?

Or do you not understand the difference between I and society?

You right wing dummies just keep reinforcing intelligent peoples' opinions of you.

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1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

Then you didn’t know what I said.

Nobody did - it was gibberish.

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15 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Nobody did - it was gibberish.

 

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8 hours ago, warbird said:
13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

we're talking about people in their 50's that are still supporting their college age kids. You think they can give up their jobs to look after aged parents?

They gave what, 20, 22 years of.their life for you and a couple of months is too much to ask? That sir(madam) is a good LIBRUL....

A couple of months? Again, what fucking reality do you live in? The whole world doesn't operate the way you think it does.

Both of my grandmothers were in nursing homes for a couple of years. The one with Alzheimer's, she didn't speak a coherent word and was a risk to herself and required constant monitoring (and daily care) for a decade. My other grandmother fell and lost mobility, and eventually needed constant care as well.  At this point her own children were in their sixties. Before she entered the home I offered to move her into my guest house, where she could live with us in her own space on a single floor and have someone literally across the driveway to help with anything she needed. She declined. She was so deaf by this point (and wouldn't upgrade to better hearing aids) that I had to write her a letter to clearly detail the offer.

Both had daily visitors, every single day of their stay. But the nursing homes earned their keep.

All four of my grandparents lived well into my adult hood, I watched and helped with their end of life process as best I could while their own aging children also did their best.

Take your smug sanctimony and stuff if up your ass, you have no idea what other people have been through.

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8 hours ago, warbird said:

So......fine the piss out of the facility for serving warm jello and they have to reduce staff to cover the fine.......

I know this is a difficult thing for you to do...but try not to be such a fucking idiot.

We're not talking about stupid bullshit like that, and you are being a disingenuous fool for pretending we are.

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8 hours ago, warbird said:

He lives in the reality I lived for 18 months. We took unpaid FMLA. We postponed vacations. We put off home and yard projects. That is what conservatives do...

Bullshit, it's what PEOPLE do you flaming asshat. It has fuck-all to do with politics you twat.

Not everyone is in your situation, not everyone has the luxuries that you do. 

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I know this is a difficult thing for you to do...but try not to be such a fucking idiot.

We're not talking about stupid bullshit like that, and you are being a disingenuous fool for pretending we are.

I don't think Warbird has any other mode.

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Back to topic.

Here's Snopes evaluation on the regulation rollback.

There's a little more detail than in the original reports.

https://www.snopes.com/trump-rolls-back-rules-protecting-elderly/

It's rather shocking

As would be expected, the Times report (which was published on Christmas Eve) resulted in a number of aggregatedheadlines reporting, essentially, that the president was going to kill Grandma on Christmas. Over-the-top wording as in this headline, “Trump Will Permit Abuse Of Elderly In Nursing Homes,” prompted readers to inquire whether the story was true.

Elder abuse is a crime, and that has not changed. However, the Trump administration did begin the process of rolling back an Obama administration policy that uses hefty fines as leverage against facilities that cause serious harm to patients. The Trump administration issued two Notices of Proposed Rule-Making (NPRMs) in May and June of 2017 which will reverse rules requiring the presence of a designated facility grievance officer to handle allegations of wrongdoing, and prohibiting nursing homes from requiring patients to sign pre-dispute arbitration agreements as a condition of admission.

:mehthis:

is outrageous 

***

Further, CMS put an 18-month moratorium on a requirement that nursing homes develop a basic care plan for new patients within 48 hours. This rule was put in place after the Health and Human Services Office of Inspector General found in a study published in 2014 that one in five Medicare patients experienced medical complications within an average 15 days of admission to nursing facilities, most of which were serious, preventable and resulted in millions in additional medical expenses billed to Medicare.

:mehthis:

is willfully negligent and financially bonkers..yeah let the tax payer pick up the 

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1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

The offense is trying to use some made up bullshit as an excuse to take resources from people.  What happens in some third world country out in the woods has nothing to do with Americans born and raised into the same opportunities.  

You can teach a man to fish.  A man who doesn’t fish but is given fish by another is lucky.  The guy who fishes is not lucky.   In some countries a man literally must fish.  In other countries a man must figuratively fish.  Wave a manic wand and swap positions and in all likelihood they’re both fucked.

And it doesn't occur to you that not everyone has someone to teach them to fish? That someone took the time and effort to teach you gave you an advantage?

And when someone shows up with their pole to fish and the lake is crowded, some people will make room for the new fisherman to cast. Some will even offer to take them out on their boat with them. And some people are left standing on shore with no way to get their line in the water. Nevermind the guys dragging right offshore taking 90% of the fish in the lake, we can't touch them.

How far do you want me to take this analogy? I'm reasonably certain you've understood none of it so far...

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1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

The offense is trying to use some made up bullshit as an excuse to take resources from people.  

 

Especially the people who have worked for them, rather than inherited them.

Especially the people who want to brag about how HARD they work and they're tired of paying taxes to support a bunch of welfare mooches, while driving on roads/using schools/claiming law enforcement/ etc etc that everybody else pays for.

-DSK

 

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:
1 hour ago, Rockdog said:

The offense is trying to use some made up bullshit as an excuse to take resources from people.  What happens in some third world country out in the woods has nothing to do with Americans born and raised into the same opportunities.  

You can teach a man to fish.  A man who doesn’t fish but is given fish by another is lucky.  The guy who fishes is not lucky.   In some countries a man literally must fish.  In other countries a man must figuratively fish.  Wave a manic wand and swap positions and in all likelihood they’re both fucked.

And it doesn't occur to you that not everyone has someone to teach them to fish? That someone took the time and effort to teach you gave you an advantage?

And when someone shows up with their pole to fish and the lake is crowded, some people will make room for the new fisherman to cast. Some will even offer to take them out on their boat with them. And some people are left standing on shore with no way to get their line in the water. Nevermind the guys dragging right offshore taking 90% of the fish in the lake, we can't touch them.

How far do you want me to take this analogy? I'm reasonably certain you've understood none of it so far...

He lost me at "wave a manic wand".

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15 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

A couple of months? Again, what fucking reality do you live in? The whole world doesn't operate the way you think it does.

Both of my grandmothers were in nursing homes for a couple of years. The one with Alzheimer's, she didn't speak a coherent word and was a risk to herself and required constant monitoring (and daily care) for a decade. My other grandmother fell and lost mobility, and eventually needed constant care as well.  At this point her own children were in their sixties. Before she entered the home I offered to move her into my guest house, where she could live with us in her own space on a single floor and have someone literally across the driveway to help with anything she needed. She declined. She was so deaf by this point (and wouldn't upgrade to better hearing aids) that I had to write her a letter to clearly detail the offer.

Both had daily visitors, every single day of their stay. But the nursing homes earned their keep.

All four of my grandparents lived well into my adult hood, I watched and helped with their end of life process as best I could while their own aging children also did their best.

Take your smug sanctimony and stuff if up your ass, you have no idea what other people have been through.

Heh, I'm the primary "go to" person for both my mother (86 low care, and in a age care fully self contained apt) and my Mother in law, (90, and living independantly) My mother spent up half a million of her own money on overseas travel and stupid stuff and will now be relient on us kids to keep her in the position to which she feels is entitled within a few years,,costs about $30,000 PA.

My MIL OTOH has saved hard all her life and refuses to waste what she consideres her grand childrens inheritance on fripperies.

I'm trying to get her  to treat herself.(and without saying so, take some of the load off me)

The point is that elderly people can be unwittingly OR willfully selfish.

We raise our kids to the very best of our ability and yes..dedicate 20+ years of our lives and income to help them on their own journeys. This is not some "investment" for our own futures..It's an act of love and taking the responsibility for bringing them into the world on our own shoulders.

 

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Heh, I'm the primary "go to" person for both my mother (86 low care, and in a age care fully self contained apt) and my Mother in law, (90, and living independantly) My mother spent up half a million of her own money on overseas travel and stupid stuff and will now be relient on us kids to keep her in the position to which she feels is entitled within a few years,,costs about $30,000 PA.

My MIL OTOH has saved hard all her life and refuses to waste what she consideres her grand childrens inheritance on fripperies.

I'm trying to get her  to treat herself.(and without saying so, take some of the load off me)

The point is that elderly people can be unwittingly OR willfully selfish.

We raise our kids to the very best of our ability and yes..dedicate 20+ years of our lives and income to help them on their own journeys. This is not some "investment" for our own futures..It's an act of love and taking the responsibility for bringing them into the world on our own shoulders.

 

Indeed. My grandfather was a great guy, but a stubborn Mick until the end. He died in 2015, at the age of 97. My mother, his only surviving child, was 74 at the time.

He wanted to live in his own house until the end. But the last couple of years he was getting more and more forgetful. Screwing up basic financial tasks, mixing his meds, etc. He'd been encouraged to hire someone to help, as living with him wasn't practical or desirable by any parties. I don't know how many of them he fired before settling on one that was OK.  Every step in the process was more painful because he didn't want to lose control of his life, of his house, and so on. But he wasn't getting it done. He needed help and he fought like hell against taking it. He started down a cycle of deterioration where he would hit a serious health crisis, get sorted by the doctors after a while, then begin another slide down to a crisis, especially in the winter. My parents live 500 miles away from him and were in their 70s; not exactly primed to drop everything and move into his 2BR/1BA house with him to take care of him. For years though they lived waiting for a call and a sprit back up to RI. We had the aforementioned guest house; my parents used it like a vacation home and came up a LOT. Not just to see us and the kids, but to be nearby parents.

My parents did eventually convince my grandfather to come spend some significant time in their house. It was like pulling teeth, and he tried once or twice and go back to his house before the agreed on time. He didn't want to live with them, though they offered to make it a more accommodating space for him. He'd lived his whole life intending to "not be a burden" on his children, but in the end, his stubbornness about remaining independent and "not being a problem" was a hell of a huge problem for the children and grandchildren that loved him. He finally agreed to move to a really nice assisted living place near my parents, where they could visit him daily. He was there for maybe 2-3 weeks before he died.

I've been very fortunate, as I've had adult relationships with all four of my grandparents. But the end can be...difficult...

 

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7 hours ago, warbird said:

Got it, 80 % of the US population was born with outrageous luck.

In another thread you’re whining about how America is turning into a 3rd world slum. Which is it?

 

The holidays sure seem to burn the ass of cuckservatives.  They’re on a McScrooge roll of epic proportions. Moderates flame out, Dogs developing nation slums and Rockies/chickenhawks “throw is he old out of nursing homes”, Jeffies Smokers Must Die campaign? Jesus, drink some eggnog and watch some football.

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Bullshit, it's what PEOPLE do you flaming asshat. It has fuck-all to do with politics you twat.

Not everyone is in your situation, not everyone has the luxuries that you do. 

FMLA - Family Medical Leave Act of 1993. Part of Bill Clinton's early agenda, passed by the Dems with Republican opposition. And warbird claims this as conservative.

He's got no other mode than moron.

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44 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

And it doesn't occur to you that not everyone has someone to teach them to fish? That someone took the time and effort to teach you gave you an advantage?

And when someone shows up with their pole to fish and the lake is crowded, some people will make room for the new fisherman to cast. Some will even offer to take them out on their boat with them. And some people are left standing on shore with no way to get their line in the water. Nevermind the guys dragging right offshore taking 90% of the fish in the lake, we can't touch them.

How far do you want me to take this analogy? I'm reasonably certain you've understood none of it so far...

I think someone hit him over the head repeatedly with that manic wand he spoke of.

It's a certainty he didn't understand a word of what you posted - the usual suspects don't - ever. They live in their narrow little world of bullshit hypothetical scenarios and manage to avoid all the real life experiences that teach more intelligent people the realities of life.

The usual suspects are narrow, ignorant, selfish fools.

Period.

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, you don't get it, W'bird really and truly succeeded ONLY because of his own hard work and intelligence.

He started out naked in the woods with sticks and rocks, no man ever built any single thing that he relied on. He dug up the iron ore and smelted it to make his own tools, and wove his own corporate-club neckties. That is why he is entitled to keep 101% of the fruits of his labors and to cast his aspersions on the rest of us lowly beings who exist in a socio-economic network dependent on others.

-DSK

I was not naked in the woods. I had a bears skin coat, dont worry, the bear survived but  shivering....

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44 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

 

2 hours ago, Rockdog said:

The offense is trying to use some made up bullshit as an excuse to take resources from people.  What happens in some third world country out in the woods has nothing to do with Americans born and raised into the same opportunities.  

You can teach a man to fish.  A man who doesn’t fish but is given fish by another is lucky.  The guy who fishes is not lucky.   In some countries a man literally must fish.  In other countries a man must figuratively fish.  Wave a manic wand and swap positions and in all likelihood they’re both fucked.

And it doesn't occur to you that not everyone has someone to teach them to fish? That someone took the time and effort to teach you gave you an advantage?

And when someone shows up with their pole to fish and the lake is crowded, some people will make room for the new fisherman to cast. Some will even offer to take them out on their boat with them. And some people are left standing on shore with no way to get their line in the water. Nevermind the guys dragging right offshore taking 90% of the fish in the lake, we can't touch them.

How far do you want me to take this analogy? I'm reasonably certain you've understood none of it so far...

 

True story.

After my dad died, and the 2 funerals (military, where he'd lived in retirement, and civilian, in the town he was born & buried)... all 4 of us kids, and both grandkids, spent a week at the cottage we'd grown up going to every summer (it had originally been my great-uncle's; then shared by my dad & his siblings, and now all the cousins co-own it)

My niece was about ten.  And just like we used to do when we were that age, she spent a lot of that week wishing for perch off the dock.  My brother snapped this one picture of me, showing her how to put the worm on her hook... just like my uncles used to do for me, when I was a kid.  Didn't even know he'd taken it (he was over at the cabin, used a zoom lens).

...

This is when I lived in Bed-Stuy, with the crack dealer landlord, and got to be pretty good friends with his brother.  Both of them were obviously totally sick of "the life".  Grew up in the crazy 80's, had more dead friends than live ones.  But after serving time twice, who's gonna hire him for a "real" job?  So he's still slinging.  It's all he knows how to do, and it's been the family business since their grandfather's day.

... 

A couple weeks after I got back to NYC, I get those pictures in the mail, and I'm showing him the cottage & stuff... He was sort of pensive, through all of it; we're talking about how different our upbringings were.  A cabin by a lake in the woods  -  to him that's shit he only knows from movies.  Scary movies, mostly.  The concept of camping, and liking it, is just weird to him.  I tell him forests are more familiar and comfortable to me than all this concrete, and he just laughs...

Anyways, when we get to that picture, and I tell him about "like my uncles used to...", and he chuckles and goes, "you know what my uncle showed me when I was ten?"

"What?"

"How to cut coke." 

Not angry, not bitter... maybe a little bit pensive.

 

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33 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Bullshit, it's what PEOPLE do you flaming asshat. It has fuck-all to do with politics you twat.

Not everyone is in your situation, not everyone has the luxuries that you do. 

FMLA - Family Medical Leave Act of 1993. Part of Bill Clinton's early agenda, passed by the Dems with Republican opposition. And warbird claims this as conservative.

He's got no other mode than moron.

1

And he seems to think you get PAID for this leave, too. Or something. All it really does is guarantee they have to give you a comparable job when you return and they can't steal your benefits.

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2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

And he seems to think he has to pay you for this leave, too. Or something.

FIFY

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If you transport your product on roads that I partly paid for then you better fuckin' believe I expect some of the fruits of his labour to be returned to society.

Just for example.

 

Asshole.

No.......... When I use the road for commerce I pay a mandated fee , Heavy Vehicle Use Tax) for that road use (fuck off argueing about the $ level of that fee,bwritw your Senator) .

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

No.......... When I use the road for commerce I pay a mandated fee , Heavy Vehicle Use Tax) for that road use (fuck off argueing about the $ level of that fee,bwritw your Senator) .

Socialism at it's finest are sealed roads :D

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45 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

FMLA - Family Medical Leave Act of 1993. Part of Bill Clinton's early agenda, passed by the Dems with Republican opposition. And warbird claims this as conservative.

He's got no other mode than moron.

FMLA was fairly common in 1993 in many companies. Simple concept, unpaid time off , then codified by the fed govt.

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6 minutes ago, warbird said:

No.......... When I use the road for commerce I pay a mandated fee , Heavy Vehicle Use Tax) for that road use (fuck off argueing about the $ level of that fee,bwritw your Senator) .

You don't even understand that much you dummy - heavy vehicle taxes are for the EXTRA load and wear you put on it - the basic road is paid for by everyone. And that was just one little example anyway - but you didn't understand that did you?

If your going to have opinions, have a little knowledge beforehand please - then you won't look like such a complete idiot.

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Sadly such "case managers" don't come cheap if you want them to be honest and effective..they also need to be securely employed if they are going to be able to build and keep working relationships..and Americans seem to hate paying public servants.

No different in Australia I can assure you. A friend of mine has worked in the disability & aged care sector all her career. Got to the point of teaching courses, had her Quality Auditor quals as well as 2 Uni degrees, used to audit homes & organizations. Was employed full time by a Victorian based not for profit to bring them up to scratch and drive organisational change as they were in serious danger of losing accreditation.

After she finished & they got through their audits, they basically fired her. Seems she stepped on too many toes and insisted they actually *follow* the policies & procedures, not just have nice pieces of paper. No-warning internal audits for example.

So don't get too self-righteous about the USA because I've heard a *ton* of local stories.

Flip side, if I or someone I know ever needs to go into institutional care in Tasmania, I know exactly who to ask for a recommendation.....

FKT

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4 minutes ago, warbird said:

FMLA was fairly common in 1993 in many companies. Simple concept, unpaid time off , then codified by the fed govt.

Hah, we get 10 personal leave days PA..paid.

That's in addition to 10 days paid sick leave and 4 weeks annual leave.

Our economy is generally on par with yours..so who's stealing your entitlements? 

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

No different in Australia I can assure you. A friend of mine has worked in the disability & aged care sector all her career. Got to the point of teaching courses, had her Quality Auditor quals as well as 2 Uni degrees, used to audit homes & organizations. Was employed full time by a Victorian based not for profit to bring them up to scratch and drive organisational change as they were in serious danger of losing accreditation.

After she finished & they got through their audits, they basically fired her. Seems she stepped on too many toes and insisted they actually *follow* the policies & procedures, not just have nice pieces of paper. No-warning internal audits for example.

So don't get too self-righteous about the USA because I've heard a *ton* of local stories.

Flip side, if I or someone I know ever needs to go into institutional care in Tasmania, I know exactly who to ask for a recommendation.....

FKT

There's the problem..Not being self rightious..we could go with a similar system to what I'm proposing..OTOH..All our Aged care places at all levels have to be accredited by the gov to get gov assistance,they Do get inspected twice yearly. You put your Oldies in not accredited places at their peril.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

You don't even understand that much you dummy - heavy vehicle taxes are for the EXTRA load and wear you put on it - the basic road is paid for by everyone. And that was just one little example anyway - but you didn't understand that did you?

If your going to have opinions, have a little knowledge beforehand please - then you won't look like such a complete idiot.

The road is paid for by,everyone (tax payers, 50% of the population) and heavy commercial users pay extra.... what is your point?

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6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Hah, we get 10 personal leave days PA..paid.

That's in addition to 10 days paid sick leave and 4 weeks annual leave.

Our economy is generally on par with yours..so who's stealing your entitlements? 

Ask the,libruls....

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Just now, warbird said:

The road is paid for by,everyone (tax payers, 50% of the population) and heavy commercial users pay extra.... what is your point?

:rolleyes: Let it go - as I said, it's beyond you.

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

:rolleyes: Let it go - as I said, it's beyond you.

Pretty well versed in,US and state,funding for a Canuck. In WI a truck pays ~ 40 times what a car pays for registration.

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's the problem..Not being self rightious..we could go with a similar system to what I'm proposing..OTOH..All our Aged care places at all levels have to be accredited by the gov to get gov assistance,they Do get inspected twice yearly. You put your Oldies in not accredited places at their peril.

You seem to have missed the point - the organisation WAS accredited. They were in danger of losing the accreditation. They were sloppy. They didn't really want to improve so my friend got what change agents generally get - the bullet in the back as soon as the crisis has passed. Been there myself in some nasty software projects when I was dragged in to take over as project manager.

From what I know and have heard I'd be very very reluctant to enter or recommend anyone enter a for-profit facility in Australia because even if the care was adequate the financial damage is extreme. Some of the not for profits are really good. However the financial models underpinning the entire aged care 'industry' suck IMO.

At 60+ years old I do think about it.

As for end of life extreme medical care, include me out. Reminds me I need to update some of that stuff.

FKT

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7 minutes ago, warbird said:

Pretty well versed in,US and state,funding for a Canuck. In WI a truck pays ~ 40 times what a car pays for registration.

:lol: I rest my case.

Jeezuss - it's like talking to a defective recording.

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You seem to have missed the point - the organisation WAS accredited. They were in danger of losing the accreditation. They were sloppy. They didn't really want to improve so my friend got what change agents generally get - the bullet in the back as soon as the crisis has passed. Been there myself in some nasty software projects when I was dragged in to take over as project manager.

From what I know and have heard I'd be very very reluctant to enter or recommend anyone enter a for-profit facility in Australia because even if the care was adequate the financial damage is extreme. Some of the not for profits are really good. However the financial models underpinning the entire aged care 'industry' suck IMO.

At 60+ years old I do think about it.

As for end of life extreme medical care, include me out. Reminds me I need to update some of that stuff.

FKT

No, I've got your point and agree with you entirely..I'm proposing Government employees being case managers to prevent exactly what you are highlighting..public/private arrangements can work very well if done right...Done wrong..they are a disaster DAMHIKT 

As for Costs in for profits..some are worse than others. "The Bleed em dry before they die" model is nationwide and we really need the Feds to step in with uniform contract models.

Hopefully with us boomers all getting the unpalatable picture, we'll get this sorted with different models before our tome comes. 

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Hopefully with us boomers all getting the unpalatable picture, we'll get this sorted with different models before our tome comes. 

I'm considering building one more house except it'll be more project managing than hands-on next time. An old person friendly place with proper ramps, wide doors, wheelchair friendly bathroom, everything one level etc. My current place isn't bad & could be improved but it's a long way to the hospital if needed.

My friend is happy to help with the design. I figure I've got 10 to 15 years of living on my acreage, after that maybe not. I don't really want to give up all my machine tools in my old age so I expect I'll need to build something rather than buy. Demolishing an old house in Hobart is a possibility. I keep my eye on land prices.

FKT

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18 minutes ago, warbird said:

Pretty well versed in,US and state,funding for a Canuck. In WI a truck pays ~ 40 times what a car pays for registration.

What kind of truck?  There are at least 13 different categories of truck registration in WI.  The most expensive is $2578 for  GVW of 80,000lbs.

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4 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I'm considering building one more house except it'll be more project managing than hands-on next time. An old person friendly place with proper ramps, wide doors, wheelchair friendly bathroom, everything one level etc. My current place isn't bad & could be improved but it's a long way to the hospital if needed.

My friend is happy to help with the design. I figure I've got 10 to 15 years of living on my acreage, after that maybe not. I don't really want to give up all my machine tools in my old age so I expect I'll need to build something rather than buy. Demolishing an old house in Hobart is a possibility. I keep my eye on land prices.

FKT

My wife's grandparents did it right IMO - when the house started to be too much they sold up, put everything into quite liquid investments and moved into a comfy rental apartment.

Made it very easy for themselves and everyone who came after.

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25 minutes ago, warbird said:

Pretty well versed in,US and state,funding for a Canuck. In WI a truck pays ~ 40 times what a car pays for registration.

Still not enough. 

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1 minute ago, jerseyguy said:

What kind of truck?  There are at least 13 different categories of truck registration in WI.  The most expensive is $2578 for  GVW of 80,000lbs.

7 years ago a gvw 76000 was approx$490 / quarter. Dump truck, straight, 2 drives,1 steer, 2 lifts.

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14 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
22 minutes ago, warbird said:

Pretty well versed in,US and state,funding for a Canuck. In WI a truck pays ~ 40 times what a car pays for registration.

:lol: I rest my case.

Jeezuss - it's like talking to a defective recording.

Except that the recording actually listens better.

Hey WB here's a thought you will not like...... a car can run on a road of much lighter specification than your truck. How much more, per mile, does it cost to build a road for your truck? By rights, commercial trucking should pay for 99.5% of roads in the US and the rest of us pick up the remainder. You taker!

-DSK

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Some of us are discussing buying a whole block of those 70's units reserving one for a carer couple. Something has to change.

I'll be converting my two story house into 2 spacious 1 bed flats..one for me downstairs, one for a carer upstairs (or the kids if they ever need a home)

I spent everything I had on this particular property with this in mind..forward planning. It will ensure I get care right up to the time I won't care what they do with me AND the kids won't lose everything to some rapacious company. They'll both get a beautiful centrally located flat when I'm gone. always have a roof over their heads. 

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20 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Except that the recording actually listens better.

Hey WB here's a thought you will not like...... a car can run on a road of much lighter specification than your truck. How much more, per mile, does it cost to build a road for your truck? By rights, commercial trucking should pay for 99.5% of roads in the US and the rest of us pick up the remainder. You taker!

-DSK

Yep, you are right. Let us make it so. Let us rid ourselves of heavy transport.  You grocery store will get deliveries by pick-ups (1500s, not the fancy 3500s) Factories will have pick ups lined up the street all the way to you driveway and beyond when it is time to ship. Dont even mention rail. Each rail yard will have to plow 100s of farmland acres flat to stage the pick ups delivering goods to be shipped. Loading rail cars from each pick up as it gets staged will make a rail stop for a train 50 hours rather than five. Overtime will kill the shipping cost. Many shop amazon, ebay etc. That product will arrive at your door next month maybe. All of those businesses will have lower outpit and pay lower tax to support the roads.

You can bend numbers to fit you agenda but the elected officials find that the current formula is workable.

 

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6 minutes ago, warbird said:

Yep, you are right. Let us make it so. Let us rid ourselves of heavy transport.  You grocery store will get deliveries by pick-ups (1500s, not the fancy 3500s) Factories will have pick ups lined up the street all the way to you driveway and beyond when it is time to ship. Dont even mention rail. Each rail yard will have to plow 100s of farmland acres flat to stage the pick ups delivering goods to be shipped. Loading rail cars from each pick up as it gets staged will make a rail stop for a train 50 hours rather than five. Overtime will kill the shipping cost. Many shop amazon, ebay etc. That product will arrive at your door next month maybe. All of those businesses will have lower outpit and pay lower tax to support the roads.

You can bend numbers to fit you agenda but the elected officials find that the current formula is workable.

 

Why shouldn’t commerce support itself? Why do they need big-govt subsidies?

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Why shouldn’t commerce support itself? Why do they need big-govt subsidies?

Subsidy? What the fuck is a subsidy and why are we worried. It seems momms have em, dads have em, banks have em, big business has em, oil has em, energy has em, factories have em retailers have em, workers have em, retirees have em, students have em, remters have em, landlorda have em, farmers have em, expoetwrs have em, importers have em. Which subsidy are you refwring to?

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Subsidy? What the fuck is a subsidy and why are we worried. It seems momms have em, dads have em, banks have em, big business has em, oil has em, energy has em, factories have em retailers have em, workers have em, retirees have em, students have em, remters have em, landlorda have em, farmers have em, expoetwrs have em, importers have em. Which subsidy are you refwring to?

Do you suffer from short term memory loss?

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4 minutes ago, warbird said:
25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Hey WB here's a thought you will not like...... a car can run on a road of much lighter specification than your truck. How much more, per mile, does it cost to build a road for your truck? By rights, commercial trucking should pay for 99.5% of roads in the US and the rest of us pick up the remainder. You taker!

Yep, you are right. Let us make it so. Let us rid ourselves of heavy transport.  You grocery store will get deliveries by pick-ups (1500s, not the fancy 3500s) Factories will have pick ups lined up the street all the way to you driveway and beyond when it is time to ship. Dont even mention rail. Each rail yard will have to plow 100s of farmland acres flat to stage the pick ups delivering goods to be shipped. Loading rail cars from each pick up as it gets staged will make a rail stop for a train 50 hours rather than five. Overtime will kill the shipping cost. Many shop amazon, ebay etc. That product will arrive at your door next month maybe. All of those businesses will have lower outpit and pay lower tax to support the roads.

You can bend numbers to fit you agenda but the elected officials find that the current formula is workable.

So, you think it's totally fair that I pay for roads that you apparently run a profitable business on, because I then get to buy products which travel on those roads? What about all the products I don't need, don't want, and what about what your trucks do to my air? What about the increased hazard to me & my family from having trucks on the roads I drive on?

The best way to look at the economics would be to consider two completely seperate road networks........... one for commercial trucks, one for private vehicles. You'd have to totally pay for your own roadways, built to carry the weight loading of trucks. I'd of course have to pay for mine, but my roads would be far cheaper, on the order of about 1~2% the cost of yours. Now, how great a benefit am I getting from the increased efficiency of transport? Shopping convenience?

Railroads- the great age of railroading was brought on by gov't subsidies to the rail lines. It was a huge boost to the economy..... rail transport is still tremendously more energy efficient than by road, so shipping more by rail and less by road would be better overall. It's not profitable due to labor cost AFAIK but that doesn't change the factors. Also, I've lived near a railroad track. Not as nice as living further away.

The status quo is fabulous? Currently elected officials are getting lobbied by reps from your industry and take voters for granted. That's how we got where we are.

And you're still a taker, overall. If you had to pay for your proper share of the cost of the roads you use, your profit would be far smaller or negative.

-DSK

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Some of you may know what I do for a living if not I’m going to share some steps when planning for senior care. 

Plan well in advance. 

If the senior is willing meet with a elder care lawyer and set up a series of POA’s both for assets and medical.  Be very careful on assets because it literally gives control of the money to that person.  On the other hand it’s too late if your loved one has a stroke.   Guardianship is a nightmare and will waste assets 

if they are willing plan final days the Five wishes is a legal document in many states and works well as a low cost plan 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Wishes

Very few seniors want to go into nursing homes look into homecare, check your state health department for requirements   

Was Mom or Dad a veteran?  There is a program called aid and attendence that pays for some care of the veteran their spouse or both   It is mean tested , but does not have a look back like medicare

Do not expect Medicare to pay for nursing the whole revision of Medicare is to reduce payouts    If a patient stops improving they will be discharged  ASAP   Which really sucks if dealing with a dementia patient that refuses to do PT after a hip replacement. 

Medicaid does pay if you are out of money, but you will Be in a county or state home and just like schools it varies on where you live 

obviously I work in this field dealing with seniors can be really tough    I’ve told more than one son or daughter raising your parents is hard   

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, warbird said:

7 years ago a gvw 76000 was approx$490 / quarter. Dump truck, straight, 2 drives,1 steer, 2 lifts.

So that is just under $2,000/yr. 

Her is the current rate:

76,000
S
2,081.00

$81 in 7 years? 

7 years ago a lot of things were different.  Scott Walker, Fitzgerald, and Robin Vos (R-Popcorn) and their elk (eg. Gabelman, Bradley, Ziegler) did not run the state.

Your problem, if there is one, seems to be with the Republicans.

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20 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So, you think it's totally fair that I pay for roads that you apparently run a profitable business on, because I then get to buy products which travel on those roads? What about all the products I don't need, don't want, and what about what your trucks do to my air? What about the increased hazard to me & my family from having trucks on the roads I drive on?

The best way to look at the economics would be to consider two completely seperate road networks........... one for commercial trucks, one for private vehicles. You'd have to totally pay for your own roadways, built to carry the weight loading of trucks. I'd of course have to pay for mine, but my roads would be far cheaper, on the order of about 1~2% the cost of yours. Now, how great a benefit am I getting from the increased efficiency of transport? Shopping convenience?

Railroads- the great age of railroading was brought on by gov't subsidies to the rail lines. It was a huge boost to the economy..... rail transport is still tremendously more energy efficient than by road, so shipping more by rail and less by road would be better overall. It's not profitable due to labor cost AFAIK but that doesn't change the factors. Also, I've lived near a railroad track. Not as nice as living further away.

The status quo is fabulous? Currently elected officials are getting lobbied by reps from your industry and take voters for granted. That's how we got where we are.

And you're still a taker, overall. If you had to pay for your proper share of the cost of the roads you use, your profit would be far smaller or negative.

-DSK

Stay the fuck off the roads.

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1 minute ago, warbird said:

Stay the fuck off the roads.

I paid for them, asshole.

How about you pay for all the air you pollute

If you don't like being called a TAKER, which you apparently are by all fair economic measure, then you have two choices...... structure your life and business on a more fair basis OR take the cheaper route and just don't be such a judgemental asshole towards others. Especially the ones who pay your freight. That way you won't be judged quite so harshly. IIRC the Bible has something to say about that

-DSK

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Our economy is generally on par with yours..so who's stealing your entitlements? 

 

Mexicans.

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