hoppy

Sydney to Hobart 2018 - supermaxi world championship

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On 31/12/2017 at 4:25 PM, LB 15 said:

Yes but even the wealthy need to go to work sometimes. The self made ones anyway. 

If they were to have a true supremaxi world title it should use the existing 'grand slam events' the Hobart, Fasnet, middle sea and Bermuda races for instance. But only probobly one boat would show up and it would just become a participation trophy. 

Anyway, who gives s fuck about some rich white cunts getting more trophys?

LB,

How could we have all missed this one ?

 

You are so right it’s not about LH trophy’s  and rich cunts getting trophy’s. 

 

Its about sailng and having fun fun and winning the B2K div 2 3ed place PHS trophy we all need to work at. One day if  I’m skilled and your not Sailing I may have the chance of winning the ultimate prize in Yachting just so I can have a peace of the holy grail of Yachting. 

 

Its a good thing dreams are free 

 

Pulpit 

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2 hours ago, pulpit said:

LB,

How could we have all missed this one ?

 

You are so right it’s not about LH trophy’s  and rich cunts getting trophy’s. 

 

Its about sailng and having fun fun and winning the B2K div 2 3ed place PHS trophy we all need to work at. One day if  I’m skilled and your not Sailing I may have the chance of winning the ultimate prize in Yachting just so I can have a peace of the holy grail of Yachting. 

 

Its a good thing dreams are free 

 

Pulpit 

Continue your Quest Grasshopper. The grail awaits.

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21 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Cricket needs to take a leaf out of the Beach Soccer book.

 

Mmmmm, Beach Soccer you say? I need to get out more.........

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I was looking at the 50th S2H fleet and there were over 300 boats racing and then the 60th and 70th editions only had around 100.  What were the changes to the safety and other rules that are the biggest reasons for drop in fleet numbers?

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every man and his dog wanted to do the 50th .

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3 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I was looking at the 50th S2H fleet and there were over 300 boats racing and then the 60th and 70th editions only had around 100.  What were the changes to the safety and other rules that are the biggest reasons for drop in fleet numbers?

Ill take a punt on Measured Stability, insurance & construction standards costs going up after 1998. I reckon a lot of those IMS era boats would have been ineligible under the changes. 

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Crewing requirements of 50% having done the S2H or other cat 1 perhaps?

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i just think less people are sailing..... We are seeing it across the board in dinghy sailing.. clubs are struggling and eventually it filters up to big boats. 

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8 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

i just think less people are sailing..... We are seeing it across the board in dinghy sailing.. clubs are struggling and eventually it filters up to big boats. 

so a general SA fuckup not supporting the sport/hobby at ground level and only supporting the elite racing?

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1 minute ago, hoppy said:

so a general SA fuckup not supporting the sport/hobby at ground level and only supporting the elite racing?

Do you mean YA...?

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Just now, PIL007 said:

Do you mean YA...?

I thought it was sailing australia.... Just shows how useless they are at promoting yachting, even boat owners don't know their name :)

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In Melbourne it's pretty clear the health of yachting is poor as the bay is pretty vacant of yachts when there are no club races. Whilst the white sail twilights get good numbers at my club, the spinnaker races struggle a bit, usually because boats lack the crew. One S80 soloed the last twilight.

The lack of any sailing presence in the Melbourne boat show is very distressing

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13 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I thought it was sailing australia.... Just shows how useless they are at promoting yachting, even boat owners don't know their name :)

Come down to Sandy tomorrow Hoppy - enter the SYC regatta under PHS.  And have a quiet word to Matt Allen - he'll be there.

Matt Allen

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16 minutes ago, hoppy said:

In Melbourne it's pretty clear the health of yachting is poor as the bay is pretty vacant of yachts when there are no club races. Whilst the white sail twilights get good numbers at my club, the spinnaker races struggle a bit, usually because boats lack the crew. One S80 soloed the last twilight.

The lack of any sailing presence in the Melbourne boat show is very distressing

 

5 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Come down to Sandy tomorrow Hoppy - enter the SYC regatta under PHS.  And have a quiet word to Matt Allen - he'll be there.

Matt Allen

I think it should be more up to us at club level. At my local (Cronulla) we have the money and have bought boats (Bics) and have intro days and Sunday come and try but we still struggle and now we are down in all divisions.

We compete with the local surf clubs for numbers but they do such a good job that we just can't compete. Parents drop their kids off early and sun bake / socialize while the club baby sits them. By lunch they are done and have the day off were sailing is way more expensive and time consuming...

I don't have the answers and will gladly take advise from all in an attempt to get back to the glory days.

Matt Allen is a great guy and will listen... I was going to approach him myself soon to discuss it...

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29 minutes ago, PIL007 said:

 

I think it should be more up to us at club level. At my local (Cronulla) we have the money and have bought boats (Bics) and have intro days and Sunday come and try but we still struggle and now we are down in all divisions.

We compete with the local surf clubs for numbers but they do such a good job that we just can't compete. Parents drop their kids off early and sun bake / socialize while the club baby sits them. By lunch they are done and have the day off were sailing is way more expensive and time consuming...

I don't have the answers and will gladly take advise from all in an attempt to get back to the glory days.

Matt Allen is a great guy and will listen... I was going to approach him myself soon to discuss it...

In Melbourne, all the clubs have an introduction to sailing day which is a great idea, but it's not so widely publicised.

In Melbourne I'd like to see an on the water boat show in Docklands driven by the clubs and sailing school with the focus of showing that sailing is not solely a rich mans elitist sport. I'm sure lots of people assume you have to be rich to own a sail boat or have to be friends of a rich guy to crew on a yacht. So i'd like to see a good assortment of boats from the clubs on show from S80's and Adam 10's up to the clubs finest. The local brokers can bring some of their boats, especially entry level used boats and maybe a display of some trailer sailers. All clubs can push crewing , promoting the introduction to sailing day which should happen after the show.

The key aspect should be the big push of the sailing schools to children with lots of sailing out on the water. This side of it should pushed heavily to YA and the state government as a way to finance the show. 

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I had an idea at my local dinghy club to run a twilight race. Gave them some sponsorship money and loosely organised an informal pilot race. About a dozen boats showed up and everyone had a great time. I went around everyone and got ideas to make it better, pizza, beer afterwards etc. everyone had a great time without losing a valuable family weekend day. 

The club officials chose not to carry it on. Weekend racing is what we do here. 

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If you want to join the big boys club, here is a possible S2H supermaxi world championships budget alternative... http://www.farryachtsales.com/sales/boat/2001-ron-holland-100-hyundai-swe-11000

Capgemini/Hyundai was ordered by the former Swedish handball player Bertil Söderberg that still owns it. His original idea was to order two identical 100 ft racing yachts for business match racing, but the money run out after just one boat. He told Ron Holland that he wanted a 11 metre one design scaled up to 100 ft.. Upscaling a big dinghy was maybe not the best idea, Hyundai is probably one of the slower 100 ft race yachts out there. Did not even manage to break the old 90 ft Nicorette (now CQS) old record for the Around Gotland Race.. But hey its a supermaxi for only 300 000 euros...

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we've discussed this before..  

I'm afraid SA (was YA) gets most of its funding from the taxpayer for Olympic goals.. and their focus is aligned with that.  They don't seem to realise the olympians come from the pool of average people starting sailing.


We've tried to get some of the olympians down to our club for a chat to trainees and memebrs via channels in SA, and I'm sure the athletes themselves would be more than willing if approached directly, but SA really doesn't give a rats.

Similar issue when we asked for a rep from SA to come and hand out certificates for our recent record-sized group of trainees who completed a course.  SA were all too busy down at sail Melbourne to spare a body for an hour.

PIL -- keep your chin up. We find the trainee groups wax and wane.. some years its huge, others not.  We had a really small turn up to discover sailing in 2017, but a high percentage were keen (rather than tyre kickers like they usually are), and we have a really big takeup on training from that day.

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1 hour ago, Frick said:

If you want to join the big boys club, here is a possible S2H supermaxi world championships budget alternative... http://www.farryachtsales.com/sales/boat/2001-ron-holland-100-hyundai-swe-11000

Capgemini/Hyundai was ordered by the former Swedish handball player Bertil Söderberg that still owns it. His original idea was to order two identical 100 ft racing yachts for business match racing, but the money run out after just one boat. He told Ron Holland that he wanted a 11 metre one design scaled up to 100 ft.. Upscaling a big dinghy was maybe not the best idea, Hyundai is probably one of the slower 100 ft race yachts out there. Did not even manage to break the old 90 ft Nicorette (now CQS) old record for the Around Gotland Race.. But hey its a supermaxi for only 300 000 euros...

I'm going pitch a proposal to Michael Hintze and Ludde Ingvall that Michael buy me Hyundai, ship and import it into Australia and supply a sufficient race and maintenance budget.

In return I will race her in all major ocean races that CQS competes in so they won't be the slowest 100 footer.

Anyone want to crew for me, the race budget will include a full fridge of beers. 

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On 19/01/2018 at 10:01 PM, Alcatraz5768 said:

I had an idea at my local dinghy club to run a twilight race. Gave them some sponsorship money and loosely organised an informal pilot race. About a dozen boats showed up and everyone had a great time. I went around everyone and got ideas to make it better, pizza, beer afterwards etc. everyone had a great time without losing a valuable family weekend day. 

The club officials chose not to carry it on. Weekend racing is what we do here. 

Great idea..  you may need to become a club official to get traction.

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4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

I'm going pitch a proposal to Michael Hintze and Ludde Ingvall that Michael buy me Hyundai, ship and import it into Australia and supply a sufficient race and maintenance budget.

In return I will race her in all major ocean races that CQS competes in so they won't be the slowest 100 footer.

Anyone want to crew for me, the race budget will include a full fridge of beers. 

I'm down for this as long as we fill the rail with Swedish backpackers at whatever port we might be racing in.

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I just noticed that Michael Hintze is the 13th richest at 2.1B Not only can he afford my proposal, he could afford to bin CQS and order a new build..

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On 1/19/2018 at 12:43 AM, SCANAS said:

Ill take a punt on Measured Stability, insurance & construction standards costs going up after 1998. I reckon a lot of those IMS era boats would have been ineligible under the changes. 

As one who worked on campaigns for both the 50th and 60th I can confirm it was simply cost.  Skyrocketing insurance premiums plus a Marine Industry figuring that it could afford to charge even higher margins on all the safety gear boats needed to comply post 1998.  Not understanding th eprice elasticity of demand in many cases.  chances are that as entries have plummeted, net spend on all that safety and other gear is way lower than it mighht have been otherwise.

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Just now, DickDastardly said:

As one who worked on campaigns for both the 50th and 60th I can confirm it was simply cost.  Skyrocketing insurance premiums plus a Marine Industry figuring that it could afford to charge even higher margins on all the safety gear boats needed to comply post 1998.  Not understanding th eprice elasticity of demand in many cases.  chances are that as entries have plummeted, net spend on all that safety and other gear is way lower than it mighht have been otherwise.

What about boats that no longer met stability like the Y11, Mumm30 etc surely that took a lot of the little guys (along with costs) out. 

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29 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

As one who worked on campaigns for both the 50th and 60th I can confirm it was simply cost.  Skyrocketing insurance premiums plus a Marine Industry figuring that it could afford to charge even higher margins on all the safety gear boats needed to comply post 1998.  Not understanding th eprice elasticity of demand in many cases.  chances are that as entries have plummeted, net spend on all that safety and other gear is way lower than it mighht have been otherwise.

Getting rid of the HF radio requirements would be a good way to lower costs and allow more boats to enter without compromising safety, but I guess the old timers in the CYCA and AS would not like that as it does not affect the big money teams.

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how to justify removing HF

5 minutes ago, hoppy said:

without compromising safety,

?

what other coverage is available mid Strait ?

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3 minutes ago, Mid said:

how to justify removing HF

?

what other coverage is available mid Strait ?

Comms to the emergency services and CYCA via sat phones and VHF for assistance from nearby vessels. Also with trackers on all yachts, the CYCA can call the nearest boats to ask them to render assistance if they have not picked up a mayday on VHF.

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It's not like a HF radio will be of any use on a boat that's been dismasted. Certainly not before the crew has time to jury rig up an antenna and hope it works...

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no use for the weather skeds ?

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urgent warnings of forecast changes can be sent by SMS

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The only advantages HF has is that it is free to use and that you can call assistance from vessels beyond VHF range.

However the price of a prepaid sim is not much when you consider the savings in not buying a HF and with a coastal race with all yachts with trackers and and listed phon numbers, plus the ability of AMSA to locate and call commercial vessels, then the HF is not advantageous. 

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14 minutes ago, hoppy said:

The only advantages HF has is that it is free to use and that you can call assistance from vessels beyond VHF range.

Listening Watch also .

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You saying Satphone wouldn't have worked PIL?

EPIRB, Tracker, PLB's for every crew, I think you could forgo the HF.

Satphone & VHF for we're in trouble, our problem or intentions are as follows.

EPIRB for we're fucked get us out of here. 

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HF is good for listening to the ABC when offshore. it is good to keep an eye on those lefties even when you are away sailing.

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

What about boats that no longer met stability like the Y11, Mumm30 etc surely that took a lot of the little guys (along with costs) out. 

Good point - sorta related to the insurance premium issue but yes, fair to say that may well have been a factor though I haven't seen any data on that.  That said, Pato and team Tow Truck did the race on the Mumm 30 in 2005 so clearly that design wasn't ruled out on stability grounds.  Should perhaps have been ruled out on human cruelty  grounds but those who've met the key protangonists would swear they are all quite sane and they love it...

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

You saying Satphone wouldn't have worked PIL?

EPIRB, Tracker, PLB's for every crew, I think you could forgo the HF.

Satphone & VHF for we're in trouble, our problem or intentions are as follows.

EPIRB for we're fucked get us out of here. 

Not saying anything other than stating that that's the device they went for (apparently)  so i assume they didn't have a sat phone.. I only EPIRB when It's immanent death, but that's just me... 

1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

HF is good for listening to the ABC when offshore. it is good to keep an eye on those lefties even when you are away sailing.

Radio France / Spain / Italy / Moscow / BBC / Armed Services / America..... I loved the HF back in the day doing deliveries.

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5 hours ago, SCANAS said:

What about boats that no longer met stability like the Y11, Mumm30 etc surely that took a lot of the little guys (along with costs) out. 

Tow Truck (the M30) did the 2005 Hobart.

 

EDIT: I see Dick's already pointed this out..

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2 hours ago, PIL007 said:

Not saying anything other than stating that that's the device they went for (apparently)  so i assume they didn't have a sat phone.. I only EPIRB when It's immanent death, but that's just me... 

Radio France / Spain / Italy / Moscow / BBC / Armed Services / America..... I loved the HF back in the day doing deliveries.

don't forget the Russian trawlers.

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6 hours ago, hoppy said:

It's not like a HF radio will be of any use on a boat that's been dismasted. Certainly not before the crew has time to jury rig up an antenna and hope it works...

Hoppy - Cat 2 and above require boats to carry an emergency antenna for both VHF and HF.

We carry a HF whip which screws together in 3 sections and bolts onto the stern - ends up 26ft long assembled

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24 minutes ago, Dark Cloud said:

Hoppy - Cat 2 and above require boats to carry an emergency antenna for both VHF and HF.

We carry a HF whip which screws together in 3 sections and bolts onto the stern - ends up 26ft long assembled

Still faster to get on the satphone than rig  up the emergency antenna. Thankfully common sense and the acceptance of modern communication methods has creeped into a couple of cat 2 races.

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I suspect the very high level of technology involved in sat phones makes a lot of people nervous - even if unjustifiably so. HF and you can talk to anyone else with an HF set. No intermediaries. Sat phone and you are traversing a set of interconnected technical miracles that defies understanding. Your call may actually run around the planet a couple of times via a dozen separate carriers and systems. It all works brilliantly when it is working, but the opportunities for it to stuff up are much greater.  The reality is that these systems do seem to have remarkable reliability. But compared to a simple HF set built out of steam driven parts that talks out of a bit of wire, it is a bit unnerving.

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I suspect it's a case of the CYCA & AY being reluctant to change with the times.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

Still faster to get on the satphone than rig  up the emergency antenna. Thankfully common sense and the acceptance of modern communication methods has creeped into a couple of cat 2 races.

hoppy,

 

modern communications are great and I can see sat phones  working well as part of a race communication package. The bonus with HF radios in racing yachts is that I see it’s a great safety net for those racing. Just think about it. When I send a message on the HF all about me can also receive the message. Just think a mayday sent by a HF will be received by not only the others racing, but all commercial vessels in the area as well and they can start the search and rescue with in seconds of hearing the call. 

 

When I send a sat phone mayday call yes it will get to AMSA to start the ball rolling for a rescue, The thing is what are they going to use to get the message out to all shipping, aircraft and boats in the same area as you ? HF and VHF radios.

 

The time from sat phoning the mayday call into AMSA and the time a all ships call is sent out by HF - VHF maybe the difference between a positive or negative result.

 

What we should be trying to do is get the HF radio manufacturers to do is make them cheaper and more reliable so more owners buy them and use them don’t you think ? 

 

Pulpit 

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6 hours ago, pulpit said:

modern communications are great and I can see sat phones  working well as part of a race communication package. The bonus with HF radios in racing yachts is that I see it’s a great safety net for those racing. Just think about it. When I send a message on the HF all about me can also receive the message. Just think a mayday sent by a HF will be received by not only the others racing, but all commercial vessels in the area as well and they can start the search and rescue with in seconds of hearing the call. 

When I send a sat phone mayday call yes it will get to AMSA to start the ball rolling for a rescue, The thing is what are they going to use to get the message out to all shipping, aircraft and boats in the same area as you ? HF and VHF radios.

The time from sat phoning the mayday call into AMSA and the time a all ships call is sent out by HF - VHF maybe the difference between a positive or negative result.

Obviously in a Mayday situation, the boat in trouble would send a mayday over VHF as well as calling AMSA. AMSA would send out a mayday relay over HF/VHF. Given that all race yachts positions are know because of the tracker and probably commercial shipping due to AIS, AMSA and the CYCA can be selective about who to call.

 

6 hours ago, pulpit said:

What we should be trying to do is get the HF radio manufacturers to do is make them cheaper and more reliable so more owners buy them and use them don’t you think ? 

LOL It's never going to happen. Less cruisers are buying HF, so HF sales to pleasure boats will be dropping. 

We should concentrate on what we can actually achieve. I'd bet you that we have much more chance of the CYCA & AS changing the rules on HF/Sat than we have of getting HF radio manufacturers to make cheaper and more reliable units.

Allowing Satphones instead of HF is going to happen in all cat 2 races and the cat 1 coastal race, Sydney to Hobart. It's not a matter of IF, just WHEN.

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9 hours ago, hoppy said:

I suspect it's a case of the CYCA & AY being reluctant to change with the times.

True to form.

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14 hours ago, hoppy said:

I suspect it's a case of the CYCA & AY being reluctant to change with the times.

No AMSA have to sign off on the RC's SMS. When I was chair of the B2K race committee they were very reluctant to go to sat phones.

They wanted any priority traffic to be a broadcast, wanted other boats in the fleet to be able to speak directly to a boat in distress and also wanted to have an open line of communication with every vessel at all times. When I explained that we all turn our HF's off right after the sceds they were blown away and said that they wanted HF monitered 24 hours a day. I told them there would be zero compliance with that so we settled on 24 hour VHF CH16 watch keeping. We allow either HF or Sat phone now. The question as to why a boat with an existing HF should buy a satphone is as valid as why a new competitor should have to buy an HF. 

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3 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

The question as to why a boat with an existing HF should buy a satphone is as valid as why a new competitor should have to buy an HF. 

Which is why race regs should allow either as long as the race committee and AMSA know what you have onboard.

On the topic of satphones, it's annoying that you can't keep your satphone number when your subscription/prepaid lapses. I would have been happy to pay a reasonable annual renewal fee for the admin of keeping my number.  

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3 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Which is why race regs should allow either as long as the race committee and AMSA know what you have onboard.

And that is why the B2K is the countries most progressive offshore race. And we don't bother with those nancy boy protest hearings for port starboard incidents either. These are sorted out in the bar afterwards.

meme

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

And that is why the B2K is the countries most progressive offshore race. And we don't bother with those nancy boy protest hearings for port starboard incidents either. These are sorted out in the bar afterwards.

meme

What do you get if you sail on a DK46?

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

And that is why the B2K is the countries most progressive offshore race. And we don't bother with those nancy boy protest hearings for port starboard incidents either. These are sorted out in the bar afterwards.

meme

Should also be left in the bar. Sounds like it had all the hard knocks of a modern day staged boxing match too. 

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5 minutes ago, MakeOracleGreatAgain said:

What do you get if you sail on a DK46?

Shorts as well as gloves. 

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9 minutes ago, MakeOracleGreatAgain said:

What do you get if you sail on a DK46?

3 months.

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

No AMSA have to sign off on the RC's SMS. When I was chair of the B2K race committee they were very reluctant to go to sat phones.

They wanted any priority traffic to be a broadcast, wanted other boats in the fleet to be able to speak directly to a boat in distress and also wanted to have an open line of communication with every vessel at all times. When I explained that we all turn our HF's off right after the sceds they were blown away and said that they wanted HF monitered 24 hours a day. I told them there would be zero compliance with that so we settled on 24 hour VHF CH16 watch keeping. We allow either HF or Sat phone now. The question as to why a boat with an existing HF should buy a satphone is as valid as why a new competitor should have to buy an HF. 

beggars belief.

 

Of what use is someone not in VHF range to assist ?

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23 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

beggars belief.

 

Of what use is someone not in VHF range to assist ?

Radio relay vessels spread throughout the fleet monitoring HF 24 hours. Can contact the boats around them by VHF if need be, but as scanas pointed out we have VHF - ship to shore range for all but a tiny bit of the race course. AMSA were great in fact - looking for workable solutions.

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29 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Of what use is someone not in VHF range to assist ?

big mobs if they are still the closest .

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58 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Radio relay vessels spread throughout the fleet monitoring HF 24 hours. Can contact the boats around them by VHF if need be, but as scanas pointed out we have VHF - ship to shore range for all but a tiny bit of the race course. AMSA were great in fact - looking for workable solutions.

Just to clarify in recent races the 'Radio relay' boats have been sat phones. A text sent to each relay vessel, and then broadcast on VHF to the boats around them, the whole fleet can be alerted in a mater of mins. The system works fine on a short race were the fleet don't get spread out - apart from some 4 knot shitbox or shaggy's Pogo being at Breaksea when everyone else is in a headlock in the bar (: . The 100's get a long way in front but they have satphones and anyway they hardly even have time to open the sandwichs in this race.

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