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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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I'm new to this, all of this... I sailed sunfish at boy scout camp for a week about 15 years ago, then went on the Chesapeake for an afternoon in a beneteau.

Now I'm crewing for a friend on his Pearson 424, and the first night out we had gusts over 35kts and a significant wave height of 10'.

I want to get into single-handed dinghy cruising and I've been checking the forums. Most people don't have an interest in what I'm looking for, so it's hard to find. I want something comparable to a wayfarer, which is hard to say having never seen one.

My neighbor has had an albacore parked in the driveway since his son passed almost 20 years ago. I'm thinking about making an offer, but want some input as to what might better suit my "needs."

Models I'm considering:

Wayfarer, Flying Scot, Buccaneer, Paceshup Alouette, Pumpkin Seed, and Albacore.

I'm not looking for a racing boat like a laser, but something robust, fast, forgiving, open (no, no O'Days, etc.), 15+', trailerable, single-handed (even if it's with practice), and "spacious..."

Does the albacore even come close? Budget is $1500, tops, but I'm willing to do some beefing up, re-rigging, modifying, etc.

I've been looking into this for a bit, but wanted to put it forward. Is there something I'm missing? I'm looking to do extended offshore sailing, starting in the Bay, then maybe the Great Lakes, after I get off this roller coaster.

2017_12_13_Foster_BostonEffie_1007_preview.jpeg

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For something like that (alone on the open sea?) I'd want a Herreshoff Watch Hill, but that would be a heck of a lot more than $1500!  Sharpies such as Reuel Parker's 18 ft might be worth looking into. There may be another forum on SA that more closely suits your niche.  

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@thengling, chaaaa... $150,000 makes me feel dumb for passing on the 25' Van Dam in Kingston back in Oct.

Sharpies, with hard chines, are an idea, and wood isn't necessarily the enemy... at that rate I might go for it and DIY what I need, but I like the idea of a budget and a backyard boat.

Really like Whitehall Dories, for wood, but they might be a nightmare on big water.

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OP says single handed. Echoing Dex, what's a good weight to singlehand a Wayfarer?

(edited)

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@Dex Sawash @thengling, profile photo game on point. I'm hovering around 150. Eating vegan from FL to PR might put me under that, but not too far. I'll have to check about righting a capsized, loaded, sodden Wayfarer, especially in heavy seas. I'm thinking about making a second centerboard, heavier and longer...

 

@bill4 noted. I'll keep my eyes open. I currently "live" in my parents basement in Central PA, but Superior isn't impossible, and there's Annapolis. I was thinking of sailing the Bay solo or with crew a few times, then running Erie to The Cottages and back, maybe Lake Ontario. I'm curious to try some longer "races," if this becomes a thing.

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Thanks, too. Any insight into rigging, sailing, resources, dinghy cruising advice, and anecdotes are greatly welcome.

Also, single-handing a wayfarer sounds like it could take a bit of practice and planning... suggestions?

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The Wayfarer is a great little boat, shouldn't be a problem to right one that is properly fitted out with flotation in the right places.

You might want to check out this thread

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, iwentsailingonce said:

Thanks, too. Any insight into rigging, sailing, resources, dinghy cruising advice, and anecdotes are greatly welcome.

Also, single-handing a wayfarer sounds like it could take a bit of practice and planning... suggestions?

You can find tons of info on cruising Wayfarers.

http://www.wayfarer-international.org/WIT/cruise.daysail/cruisetips/singlehandrigging.html

Surf around the Wayfarer sites. Stories of North Sea cruising, reefing mainsails, small outboards, tents etc etc. Very active in and around Toronto.

http://wayfarer-canada.org/forsale.html

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You want to do multi-day sleep ashore camp-cruising? The Wayfarer is regularly used for these sorts of things. 

You are probably a bit light to single-hand a big two-handed race dinghy like the Buccaneer in brisk conditions (esp recovery).

Flying Scot isn't self-rescuing if swamped, takes a power boat and people who know how to save one when they do go over . A $1500 Scot will have a soft floor (no idea if that makes them unsafe but it does make them slower). 

You should read all you can about Everglades Challenge, Race To Alaska, Texas 300 and other adventure races to see how people solve the various challenges.

Maybe you can work a deal for shared use of the neighbor's Albacore and get some more dinghy experience so you have a better baseline of dinghy knowledge. The Albacore will quickly ramp your skill up way beyond the what the big Pearson will. No idea about self-recue on the Albacore.

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Honestly, it seems to me that " single handed dinghy cruising " can be very enjoyable if you spend each night on the shore but " extended offshore sailing " in a smallish open boat sounds miserable and potentially very dangerous. Keep in mind that I have sailed this type of  boat my entire life and this is only my opinion. With that said, I think the choice of boat depends on exactly how you intend to use it. Some of the qualities you listed that you desire cannot all be found in one boat. What you are talking about can be very dangerous so read some books on small boats in big water. That will help you select the right boat. Be careful!

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1 hour ago, Dex Sawash said:

You want to do multi-day sleep ashore camp-cruising? The Wayfarer is regularly used for these sorts of things. 

You are probably a bit light to single-hand a big two-handed race dinghy like the Buccaneer in brisk conditions (esp recovery).

Flying Scot isn't self-rescuing if swamped, takes a power boat and people who know how to save one when they do go over . A $1500 Scot will have a soft floor (no idea if that makes them unsafe but it does make them slower). 

You should read all you can about Everglades Challenge, Race To Alaska, Texas 300 and other adventure races to see how people solve the various challenges.

Maybe you can work a deal for shared use of the neighbor's Albacore and get some more dinghy experience so you have a better baseline of dinghy knowledge. The Albacore will quickly ramp your skill up way beyond the what the big Pearson will. No idea about self-recue on the Albacore.

 

There's a lot of small boats out there that are self-rescuing "in theory." An Albacore could be made so, fairly easily, but unless you're getting a fairly new boat that's got well-documented capsize behavior, it's not something to take for granted. As noted, the Flying Scot is problematic but then I have also seem some older Lightnings that were as bad or worse. The two common ways are a double hull, or a raised sole with airbags;  but neither is guaranteed especially with older boats.

Its a fairly simple problem, engineering-wise. All you need is flotation both sufficient and placed such that they boat not only will not sink but can be sailed away from a swamping/capsize.  That said, several double hulled boats (including, sadly, most older Buccaneers) either have lost the ability due to loss of watertight integrity, or weren't really designed all that well to start with.

 

1 hour ago, xonk1 said:

Honestly, it seems to me that " single handed dinghy cruising " can be very enjoyable if you spend each night on the shore but " extended offshore sailing " in a smallish open boat sounds miserable and potentially very dangerous. Keep in mind that I have sailed this type of  boat my entire life and this is only my opinion. With that said, I think the choice of boat depends on exactly how you intend to use it. Some of the qualities you listed that you desire cannot all be found in one boat. What you are talking about can be very dangerous so read some books on small boats in big water. That will help you select the right boat. Be careful!

Maybe I'm just too gregarious, but extended single-handed sailing sounds very unpleasant to me. Offshore in a small boat? Fun for an afternoon, for longer passages a potential nightmare given any bad weather. Ballasting for self-righting, adding a watertight cabin, all of these make it less of a suicide mission but they also add weight (reduce sailing performance) and cost. By the time you get the basics in place, you're looking at something like a Mini-TransAt boat. Which is really not suitable for a beach cruiser.

FB- Doug

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Wayfarer is a great boat, but lots of different versions, so do your research as some have undesirable habits, like the early self drainer that was unstable from a capsize due to the amount of water still on board.

I use a standard glass Mk2, it is easy to right from a capsize but takes on loads of water and a big bucket is essential. We fitted it with a mast head float as it will invert.

Single handing a wayfarer is easy. They sail well with main only, just rake the board back a bit. Roller furling jib makes it all easy. Boat is stable enough to do anchor work on the foredeck.

Biggest problem? The weight, so ours stays on a mooring and we get plenty of help at the end of the season, so make sure it comes with a top notch trailer and winch:)

Why a dinghy? Why not one of the many small trailable cruising cats? You would get so much more space! Maybe a Wharram Hitia 17  (https://www.wharram.com/site/self-build-boats#ethnic)        

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Et al, @Dart96, @Dex Sawash, @Steam Flyer, @xonk1:

 

Yea though extended offshore dinghy cruising sounds miserable, that be my intention. The dangers permitting, should be mitigated by expecting the worst, which, if I may ask yet another question, what really is the worst that could happen to a man at sea?

I find the lines and spirit of the mini-transat boats to be more than agreeabe, save that d***** cabin. Why no cabin? I don't find it to be requisite, as of yet. The purpose of this boat and it's subsequent passages are to sail, and although a significant degree of misery be unavoidable, it is not likely to last a duration beyond the human will. This be not a pleasure cruise.

True, for this current passage I am quite well provisioned with the romance novels to inspire necessary spirit--Ocean Crossing Wayfarer, Berserk, North to the Night, Storm Sailing... Now begins the ground work for the realization of true adventure, beyond the inception of its fantasy.

There be little left ashore for me, save a means to reach the sea, and so I shall, forevermore, be one with thee when I can live among my dreams.

 

I'll be finding my wayfarer and outfitting, and practicing, and perhaps I shall race on the Real Lake 2019 afore I set off. This is no more a suicide mission than to wake up in the morning.

 

I bid you all adieu and a happy New Year. May your weathervanes fail and your auto helms die.

 

 

Godspeed,

 

XX

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@Dart96 noted. Glass mk2 sounds about ideal for this. As for cats, there seems to be a strong bias against multi-hulls. For some reason I'm envisioning a planing dinghy, and the wayfarer, equipped with a roller reefing main, and maybe furling jib (hanks provide the advantage of interchangability, likely less necessary on a wayfarer).

Perhaps my neighbors albacore is a suitable option for training. I long to be underway.

 

Thank you all for the input.

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iwentsailingonce, to paraphrase, " the sea is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect "

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2 hours ago, xonk1 said:

"the sea is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect "

Curious thing, I was at a CCA luncheon, and the one couple had made 3-4 circumnavs. The wife wasn't accepted into the club until after they washed ashore in a storm off the Carolinas. A week later we rounded Montauk and I wasn't sure I could handle 4 days to VA.

 

I'm not too proud to learn from failure, especially when my survival depends on it. A quote from one of my favorites (I don't actually read much), Deep Survival, by Laurence Gonzales:

"The perfect adventure shouldn’t be that much more hazardous in a real sense than ordinary life, for that invisible rope that holds us here can always break. We can live a life of bored caution and die of cancer. Better to take the adventure, minimize the risks, get the information, and then go forward in the knowledge that we’ve done everything we can..."

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I'll second the notion that you should look at what the folks doing the Everglades Challenge and R2AK are up to. 

I've done a some dinghy cruising and adventure racing both solo and two-up, including a bunch of ECs. First thing I learned early on is going solo is a harder than going doublehanded. This is especially true when the weather gets bad when you've already been at the tiller for 18 hours. But I understand the appeal of singlehanding, and still aspire to do more of it myself even though it's always more fun to have a crew along to share the experience and also to allow for some time to rest while under sail and making long passages. 

You need first and foremost a comfortable boat that's easily handled and well balanced under sail. It should have easy to use and well thought out methods of reefing, at least two reefs on any mast mounted sails and either roller furling or a downhaul on any jibs. You should be able to rescue the boat yourself if you capsize. You should have a way to get back on board from deep water, and by this I mean a fixed ladder. 

The Albacore would be dreadfully uncomfortable for cruising and too powered up. Flying Scots are a bear to recover when capsized as they hold several thousand pounds of water that you have to remove by hand and also the fact that the open centerboard trunk is below the waterline when the boat is re-righted from a capsize. Also, since the CB falls back into the case when the boat goes over and inevitably turtles, it's damn near impossible to recover without a lot of help.

Wayfarers and the Canadian made copies CL16s have a pretty good record as dinghy cruisers.

I'm not a big fan of sloops for dinghy cruising. My last boat was a cat ketch Core Sound 17. I find the split rig to be easier to handle with singlehanding. It had a lot of "gears" you could shift when the wind got up with two reefs in each sail. It was well balanced and didn't load up the rudder like the typical dinghy sloop does in big wind and waves. (So many Everglades Challenge sloops have had rudder problems over the years....) You can sheet the mizzen in and let the main fly and the boat would go head to wind and stay there while you reefed or tended to eating, changing clothes, relieving yourself, repairs, or just to take a rest. 

 

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Dex and Mister Moon are on the right track. Check with the EC and R2AK crowd. Wayfarers are good boats, very common for camp-cruising, but usually sailed double-handed. I like Flying Scots, but agree with above that they're very difficult to self-rescue. Also usually sailed with 2 or 3, so will be a handful sailing solo. In the past I've seen people camp-cruise a Snipe and a 470, again that's with 2. Might be possible with one. Cockpit is pretty cramped in both , as far as gear storage and sleeping on board (forget it). The Coresounds that Mr Moon mentioned are very suitable. Matt Layton's Micro-cruisers are perhaps exactly what you're looking for, but you'd have to build one. They are easy and inexpensive to build, though. You're probably looking for more shelter than they offer, but the Hobie TI/AI are very popular as a multihull option.

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The Hobie TI/AI isn't a terrible way to go. I've recently picked up a TI and it's pretty fun to sail, if wet. A drysuit helps. 

The only problem is pretty much none of the stuff we're mentioning is in your budget. If you aren't afraid of building, you could build a pretty decent camp cruiser. I like Jim Michalak's Mayfly 16 for a first build. It's really easy and inexpensive  to build and sails reasonably well. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/jm-mayfly16.htm

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Here's what would worry me about sailing alone offshore in a dinghy: the wind turns offshore, you become exhausted, the boat capsizes, the boat gets away from you, and you don't have the strength to swim after it...

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@Rainbow Spirit, that is a situation you methodically rehearse avoiding. Even on my friends 42' pearson we tether in. You lose your boat at any point your best bet is probably to exhale and swim as far down as possible, then open wide... I'm a terrible swimmer, 200yds at best. Love the cold.

@RKoch, @MisterMoon

What about a Raven? At this rate, despite the drawbacks, an Albacore would fit my needs til I can either build a boat or buy a decent one that fits. I like the old Atlantic class boats, but I think a wayfarer is likely stretching it... I'll look into the EC and R2AK boats. I'm honestly contemplating the tri-lakes challenge. Got a friend getting married in Twin Cities in June and our other friend and I might drive out. He'd be good crew.

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Raven looks really big and powerful. Might be handful, so carry a PLB for when you capsize it offshore. 

If you can find a SLI Daysailer (which is an updated version of the O'Day Daysailer 2), you should give that a look.  

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If you get a boat that can capsize, you have to be able to right it. Solo, that means no bigger than about 15'.  Id look at something like Matt Laydons Paradox,  which can be cruised by 1 or 2 (if you're good friends). Very easy and inexpensive to build, probably less than cost of used boat.

http://www.microcruising.com/paradox1.htm

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@MisterMoon, I would have a PRB/EPIRB with other redundant survival and location systems, sure, but really, capsizing underway is a question of when not if with this type of sailing, and likely seas would be in excess of 15' (hypothetically)...

Raven likely is way-overpowered. I think I saw one in VA, but I've no clue.

Ocean Crossing Wayfarer, for the unacquainted, Frank Dye and one crew dead reckoned a wooden wayfarer from Scotland to Iceland, 650nm, over 11 days through 4 gales. That was in 1963.

Supposedly two guys were trying to sail a Viper 640 across the pacific, couldn't find any info on it.

Sat beacons are good if you want them to find a body for a "proper burial," but really, I try to practice not dying in my endeavors. I probably sound really arrogant about now, not being a "sailor," but a locator beacon won't save your life 500nm from land, or at least you shouldn't plan on it.

I'm looking for a boat that isn't "enclosed," that is fairly bomb-proof, able to be single-handed (with practice and modifications), at least 15' LOA, preferrably a planing monohull, and costs between $500-$5,000 fully tuned-up.

I've heard from a few people what I'd figured, sounds like a Wayfarer, or building one myself. Some solid leads and advice too. Sorry to come in and splash about asking what's a good dinghy for blue water sailing... I should have out right said, "I might do this eventually..."

For now I'm stuck at anchor in FL. This gale just blew two boats ashore a quarter mi downwind.

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@MisterMoon having done several EC's, are you in FL? I've got a day ashore tomorrow. Might have more than one. It snowed today. I've been rereading your replies, it'd be good to pick your brain more, better than googling.

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I have a Flying Scot, that I cruise. Motor Mount, Lazy Jacks, Topping Lift, Mast Float, Sun Shade,  Swim Ladder . Have added a line to top of jib and ran back to cockpit for fast drop. Tiller tender helps out a lot moving forward singlehandedly. Plenty of storage forward and aft. Totes and dry bags. Compass and a phone gps. Stereo is my luxury item. Cooler and a small butane stove with magma pots. This spring adding non skid deck paint. Me and the dog need it.  Boat is very stable and fast enough for me. I. Sails well and pretty flat. Not to say it won't heel. My Blue Heeler Kimber and I do nicely with set up.  

S/V Blue Heeler 

Brian McCrary

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On 2017-12-30 at 10:27 PM, iwentsailingonce said:

Thanks, too. Any insight into rigging, sailing, resources, dinghy cruising advice, and anecdotes are greatly welcome.

Also, single-handing a wayfarer sounds like it could take a bit of practice and planning... suggestions?

The Wayfarer is the classic cruising dinghy (watch this 44-minute video: "4000 miles in a Wayfarer").

You should get in touch with Rob Dunbar (Twitter account @HOUSEINHALIFAX). He has lots of experience single-handing CL-16 2120, Celtic Kiss. (see e.g. "An Intense Crossing"). He's a friendly guy, so contact him and pick his brain.

For present purposes, here is a quotation from one of his old cruise reports:

"As I was again sailing solo with little weight aboard Celtic Kiss, and given the forecast and current sea state at the harbour mouth, I thought I’d be better off sailing under a reefed main so as not to be overpowered. I soon learned that this was an unnecessary exercise, as the added ballast of supplies made Celtic Kiss more stable than I had anticipated.  What a pleasant surprise to find my 350lb dinghy behaving like a keelboat." 

P.S. As you probably know, the CL-16 is an unauthorized Canadian-made copy of the Wayfarer. Secondhand CL-16s are readily available and usually quite a bit cheaper than Wayfarers. For your purposes one would be just as good as a Wayfarer, and with its simplified rigging perhaps even better.

clboatworks-cl16.jpg

P.P.S. A few other resources that you might find helpful:

  1. "In Search of the Perfect Dinghy";
  2. Dinghy Cruising With Phillips (1981)
  3. The Dinghy Cruising Companion (2014);
  4. Dinghy Cruising, 4th ed. (2011)

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@Svanen Thank you for the links, I'll have to check them out with the absurd amount of sitting at anchor I have to still look forward to. I finished Ocean Crossing Wayfarer which only fueled my ideas more. The idea of cruiser camping is nice, but I also am drawn to challenges like Everglades and Barthels. And then you have Chiles and Ant...

 

@badpirate66 That sounds close to what I'm hoping to do. And my parents Golden would love it; he already loves motorcycle rides and the water. How well does your scot point to windward? From what I can find the Trans-Superior is mostly an upwind race, and sitting here in WPB we keep watching the Easterly Trades between us and Puerto Rico.

 

There's a soling beside us, and although not a dinghy, is alluring. But I don't think it fits what I'm looking for. I'll check up on CL-16's. Hard not to throw down $500-$800 for something to cruise around in while we wait for our weather offshore. Finding work, and play til it comes.

 

Many thanks.

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50 minutes ago, iwentsailingonce said:

I finished Ocean Crossing Wayfarer which only fueled my ideas more. The idea of cruiser camping is nice, but I also am drawn to challenges like Everglades and Barthels.

Glad to hear that you liked Ocean Crossing Wayfarer. Dinghy Cruising, 4th ed., recommended above is by Margaret Dye (Frank's wife, now widow). If you search YouTube for "Summer Cruise 1964", you can find a home movie of Frank's Norwegian Sea crossing with Bill Brockbank.

I suspect you would need a smaller, lighter boat for the Everglades, which is a somewhat specialized event and IIRC requires competitors to self-launch from the beach above the high-water mark. Even with rollers, man-hauling a Wayfarer or CL-16 singlehanded would be difficult; a Flying Scot (class minimum weight 675 lbs) would be all but impossible.

FS's are very nice boats, but they are right up there at the top end of dinghy sizes. They can be sailed singlehanded, but if that's your specific aspiration I wouldn't deliberately seek one out as my first choice. Brian can presumably provide more insight on this.

May be of interest: an account of the 2011 Tip of the Mitt Challenge, by two Wayfarer sailors.

P.S. Are you familiar with Small Craft Advisor? Lots of interesting articles in that magazine.

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Early next month (February 2-4) the Lake Eustis Sailing Club is hosting the Wayfarer Mid-Winter's. That would provide a great opportunity to see the boat, talk to owners and go for a trial sail. Contact Dave Hepting for more information (his email is hepting.david@gmail.com, telephone number is 352-250-6773).

Besides Wayfarers, LESC is also the home of FS Fleet # 150, so a visit would give you a chance to compare both types side-by-side. I still think that its really too large for your intended purpose, but judge for yourself.

If you decide you want a Flying Scot, 2711 is for sale up in St. Augustine.

 

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Have you considered the Wanderer as a more easily single handed and slightly smaller Wayfarer? They are a lot lighter than a Wayfarer and easily righted single handed but still have decent load carrying capacity.

You could also look at the replacement 38kg steel centreboard:

http://www.porters.org.uk/Wanderer

and a mast head float and they have outboard attachments so you can tick off a lot of the safety mitigation you are looking for.

Not sure how many are around and prices but a retrofit steel centreboard would be possible on most small dinghies if you are prepared for a bit of work strengthening the slot?

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