Russell Brown

R2AK 2018

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Apologies for beating this topic to death but I have some numbers...

I loaded my R2AK design into FreeShip and ran the resistance calculations. FreeShip says to go 3 knots takes 25 Watts, 50 Watts gets 4.5 kts and 100 Watts gets 6 knots of speed.

A pedaler outputting 100W could use 50 for propulsion (maintaining 4.5 kts), and 50W to charge something - lets assume 50% losses and we will have 25 Watts to use while the pedaler is resting, maintaining 3 knots of speed while depleting the stored energy.

That would be 6 miles covered in two hours with a straight pedal drive, or  7.5 miles covered using the energy storage system taking into account 50% losses.

 

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25 minutes ago, W9GFO said:

Apologies for beating this topic to death but I have some numbers...

I loaded my R2AK design into FreeShip and ran the resistance calculations. FreeShip says to go 3 knots takes 25 Watts, 50 Watts gets 4.5 kts and 100 Watts gets 6 knots of speed.

A pedaler outputting 100W could use 50 for propulsion (maintaining 4.5 kts), and 50W to charge something - lets assume 50% losses and we will have 25 Watts to use while the pedaler is resting, maintaining 3 knots of speed while depleting the stored energy.

That would be 6 miles covered in two hours with a straight pedal drive, or  7.5 miles covered using the energy storage system taking into account 50% losses.

 

The downside being that the energy storage system is complicated, heavy, and in the way all the time. Probably a net loss for most conditions.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

The downside being that the energy storage system is complicated, heavy, and in the way all the time. Probably a net loss for most conditions.

For a flywheel system yes, but for what I am talking about (one hour run time electric) it would be pretty simple and compact. A 50 W motor/generator and 50 Watt-hours of battery capacity could be done for under 20 pounds - still against the R2AK rules.

Another point, after 6 knots you can't really add more power to get more speed (on my boat), so if you pedal at 200W for an hour at a time the benefit of the energy storage system gets even better, 10.5 miles every two hours. 

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11 hours ago, W9GFO said:

Over a 24 hour period the 3 knot boat will have gone 24 miles further than the 4 knot one.

That's what I said.  A hypothetical gain of one mile per hour, not two as you said later (twice).

7 hours ago, W9GFO said:

In two hours the 3 knot boat goes 6 miles, a 2 mile gain every hour.

No.  Six miles in two hours vs. four miles in two hours is a hypothetical gain of one mile per hour.

6 hours ago, W9GFO said:

That would be 6 miles covered in two hours with a straight pedal drive, or  7.5 miles covered using the energy storage system taking into account 50% losses.

That is a hypothetical gain of 3/4 mile per hour: (7.5 - 6) / 2

6 hours ago, W9GFO said:

For a flywheel system yes, but for what I am talking about (one hour run time electric) it would be pretty simple and compact. A 50 W motor/generator and 50 Watt-hours of battery capacity could be done for under 20 pounds - still against the R2AK rules.

An electric system is certainly simpler than a flywheel with variable speed output, but I wouldn't rule out some form of high tech, high speed flywheel under 20 lbs. 

In any case, a stored energy system should be designed so that if it fails, the primary pedaling system still works.

Again, the application I had in mind was auxiliary power for a sailboat, not a pedal boat without sails.  As to your hypothetical competitive advantage of running continuously at a lower speed vs. bursts of higher speed interspersed with rest periods, I am still dubious.  Bicyclists who pedal 100 miles per day do it by choosing gears that allow continuous pedaling without periodic one hour rest stops.  If you do the same thing on a pedal boat, where is that hypothetical advantage of stored power?

I can imagine a gadget similar to the Copenhagen Wheel but instead of requiring external power to charge it, a variant of "regenerative braking" would automatically divert surplus pedal power to recharging when the desired cruising speed is reached.  Hub Weight: 16.8 lbs / 7.6 kg.  Review: https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/1/16379278/copenhagen-wheel-connected-bike-review

 

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I think you guys need to account for human physiology a bit more. I can easily pedal at 50W for two hours but 100W for one hour would tax me. The former will get you farther than the latter, even with a nearly 100% efficient storage system.

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12 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

The most important reason the discussion is pointless for the R2AK is that it's apparently not allowed by the rules.  Whether or not the concept itself is flawed is pure speculation.  If weight alone were the primary criteria for winning then the lightest boat would win, which is clearly not the case.  The idea is not suggested as a competitive advantage anyway (a subject that is debatable), but as a convenience and safety factor that allows a solo sailor to briefly tend to other matters without stopping the boat.  And as a development exercise that might  be applied to conventional, non-race use.

We aren't all competitors in the R2AK, this is idle chatter from a spectator.  The complexities of a flywheel with constant speed output, neutral and reverse, are easily avoided by using a battery and electric motor.  Rules aside, the technology seems inevitable to me.

It is not against the rules.

I didn't say it was a flawed idea in general, it's an inappropriate idea for the R2AK.

Start a new thread to explore your excellent idea, don't thread drift here.

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2 hours ago, BarfBag said:

It is not against the rules.

I didn't say it was a flawed idea in general, it's an inappropriate idea for the R2AK.

Start a new thread to explore your excellent idea, don't thread drift here.

OK, sorry, I'll be more cordial with my response to your very polite "get lost" dictum by removing my "Downvote" and saying instead that this thread drift is minor, it's not entirely unrelated to the R2AK "spirit", and it isn't interrupting any other discussion in this thread this week.

How about a Stored Energy Division to the R2AK?  It would otherwise not violate the 100% wind/human-power rule.

Which doesn't take a lawyer to see that the following detail is easily settled: In non-race mode, the prudent skipper would OF COURSE charge his battery (by pedaling) before casting off, especially in a harbor where you can't sail away.  In a race against boats that don't have stored energy, however (the larger R2AK fleet), pre-charge is clearly an unfair advantage, the equivalent of extra time on the course.  In a 750 mile race, it might not make much difference in the end, but as a benchmark test and for the pure spectacle of all boats paddling furiously out of Victoria harbor, this rule would apply to all boats at the start: Any propulsion energy storage system must be completely discharged. 

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6 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

That's what I said.  A hypothetical gain of one mile per hour, not two as you said later (twice).

No.  Six miles in two hours vs. four miles in two hours is a hypothetical gain of one mile per hour.

Yes, you are correct,  I misread. We do agree that there is a hypothetical gain - which is really the only point I am trying to make.

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1 hour ago, W9GFO said:

Yes, you are correct,  I misread. We do agree that there is a hypothetical gain - which is really the only point I am trying to make.

I'm afraid you have misread again.  Your math error (one mile per hour, not two) derailed me.  Fact checking is pedantic but necessary.

I don't agree that there is a hypothetical gain.  For me, that remains unproven.  The human energy power is fixed.  Running it through any storage device is a loss compared to direct drive.

I do agree that this isn't the place for a deep technical debate.  Whether or not there is any competitive edge - meaning even if there is not - the idea has merit to me for safety and convenience.  Being able to attend to other matters while the boat continues on its merry way, without having to pedal for a few seconds or minutes.  I suppose you could say it affects performance if I don't have to stop the boat to do any number of brief, little tasks that can't be done from the pedaling position.  Or, for lack of locomotion, the boat doesn't drift onto the rocks while I attend to an emergency.  That's why a separate division is needed.

If stored human energy boats, with their weight penalty, complexity and potential for breakdowns, actually prove to help win a 750 mile race, that would be really good to know!  What better proving ground than an R2AK?  It's a natural evolution of the race.

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I would love...LOVE to do this race, but I honestly think that I'm not physically tough enough to do it in the way which I'd really like to do it.

Which would be....Holder 20 with sliding seat rowing in the cockpit; and solo.  Balls. You need great big clanking ones to attempt this, in that manner.  You also have to be incredibly tough  both physically and mentally.  Realistically, I'm very much not so sure that I'm that tough.

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6 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

I'm afraid you have misread again.  Your math error (one mile per hour, not two) derailed me.  Fact checking is pedantic but necessary.  I don't agree that there is a hypothetical gain.  For me, that remains to be proved.

We seem to be arguing different things. I say, that in theory there is an advantage to be had and I supplied some numbers to support that in post #301. Wether or not someone can implement it well enough to realize the advantage is dependent upon a huge number of variables, I can't possibly "prove" it without actually doing it.

Use my example in post 301 and let me know why you don't see that there could be a (theoretical) advantage. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Bicyclists who pedal 100 miles per day do it by choosing gears that allow continuous pedaling without periodic one hour rest stops.  If you do the same thing on a pedal boat, where is that hypothetical advantage of stored power?

Because you cannot pedal continuously for a long distance race. You must rest. While you rest you don't move. If you can store some energy to keep moving while you are not pedaling you will cover more ground - even though your speed is lower.

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I just want to add how George of world's fastest bicycle fame, described the rider for the Dutch team. " He was 8 feet tall and cranked out 750 watts " He might have said 800 watts but I do not want to misrepresent him. No doubt the guy was big and powerful, but he was severely cramped for space.

David and I were just chatting. For a boat like my Tanzer 22, or his S2 7.9, I think two large oars, one per side, being pulled by one person per side. He is thinking one person in the center pulling two smaller oars. Any thoughts from those that have BTDT.

Unkle Krusty 

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Not BTDT, but there is no doubt that 2 people rowing with 2 longer oars are going to be faster than one person on shorter oars.

However, for a 2 man crew, that means that the entire crew is on the oars, with no one getting rest or sailing the boat. There are times when “motor” sailing gives you best speed by increasing apparent wind.

You would be best off if you can do it with 2 rowing stations each with 2 oars. Then you have max power for short bursts when you need it and the long term alternative where the non rower is either resting or sailing.

If you can’t do 2 rowing stations, then a single station with 2 oars has to be the best all round option, with maybe a bit of paddling/sculling thrown in when necessary by the non rower......

R2AK is all about rest and conserving your energy.

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I have an S2 7.9.  Rowing one for any length of time just sounds like a recipe for misery to me.  BTW, I think you'll want to experiment with rowing that S2 with the daggerboard pulled 2/3rds of the way up, but not all the way.  He probably knows that.

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1 hour ago, Unkle Crusty said:

I just want to add how George of world's fastest bicycle fame,

Are you talking about Georgi Georgiev? If you want someone who knows more than most about recumbent power, he's the guy!!!

It would be amazing to see his approach to this.

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6 hours ago, Alan H said:

I would love...LOVE to do this race, but I honestly think that I'm not physically tough enough to do it in the way which I'd really like to do it.

Which would be....Holder 20 with sliding seat rowing in the cockpit; and solo.  Balls. You need great big clanking ones to attempt this, in that manner.  You also have to be incredibly tough  both physically and mentally.  Realistically, I'm very much not so sure that I'm that tough.

You have a fine boat to take and you will relish the navigational challenges. Look how Team Searunner 2016 managed to sail 98 percent of the time with a Code Zero and determination. You Sir, should enter.

Holder 20 pics

https://www.google.ca/search?q=holder+20+sailboat+for+sale&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=slrUJF6mtx-OxM%3A%2CmFRt3f_qIPormM%2C_&usg=__JsTe9Hxv6pUTs847aUiKxWHS-yw%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQkb3BuqnZAhVI8GMKHajuDocQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=_ 

 

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23 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Hello all!  We are 'Team Calico Race to Alaska', Jud and Miranda, carrying the spirit of adventurer that is in all of us, especially for those who'd like to go, but aren't/can't/won't/don't dare! :-)

This year, we'll 'prove ourselves' by doing Stage 1, Port Townsend, WA to Victoria, BC.  (Next year, Stage 2, all the way to Alaska).  

Click to Follow us and Like us, Team Calico, on Facebook!  The adventure continues!  Team Calico Race to Alaska Facebook page

Make Bowen Island proud!

You two will have a blast.

See you in 2019, then

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12 hours ago, IStream said:

I think you guys need to account for human physiology a bit more. I can easily pedal at 50W for two hours but 100W for one hour would tax me.

You are stronger than you think. Most heathy people can put out 100w cycling for hours.  Regular cyclists (I’d put myself in that category) can do closer to 200w for a couple of hours. World class racers can double that.

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6 minutes ago, Alex W said:

You are stronger than you think. Most heathy people can put out 100w cycling for hours.  Regular cyclists (I’d put myself in that category) can do closer to 200w for a couple of hours. World class racers can double that.

You're probably right. When I was bike commuting 5 miles to work and back every day, I was in much better shape. Even though it was a short distance, I sprinted it to make the most of the ride. 

I guess my larger point is that regardless of the absolute power output, I find that I can pedal at half effort far more than twice as long as I can at full effort.

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5 hours ago, olsurfer said:

Are you talking about Georgi Georgiev? If you want someone who knows more than most about recumbent power, he's the guy!!!

It would be amazing to see his approach to this.

You have the right guy. He is on my Island, and I see him often. Sam the rider is from Salt Spring Island. Best for them was 82.82 in 009 for the record. The 8 foot Dutch guy,  Sesbastiaan Bowier with major technical support, did 83.13. The record is now 89.58.

Unkle Krusty

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11 hours ago, Alan H said:

I would love...LOVE to do this race, but I honestly think that I'm not physically tough enough to do it in the way which I'd really like to do it.

Which would be....Holder 20 with sliding seat rowing in the cockpit; and solo.  Balls. You need great big clanking ones to attempt this, in that manner.  You also have to be incredibly tough  both physically and mentally.  Realistically, I'm very much not so sure that I'm that tough.

I'm not exactly tough, but I managed to do the race by making sure that I got plenty of rest. I anchored every night and pushed as hard as I could when there was wind. It didn't seem to matter when I finished, only that I didn't wreck the boat by being stupid. You don't need balls, just some seamanship, navigation, and sailing skills 

I didn't make a lot of miles pedaling. Human power was more to get to the wind or get around a corner. That being said, there was wind last year. This year the race starts a bit later, so who knows...

I'm not a huge fan of rowing big boats, but I have gimpy wrists that don't like rowing. I do like pedal power, but pedal power for boats is a developing art...

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Pedaling is the most numerically ( theoretically ) efficient, but fouling can be an issue, and you need a rudder, which can also foul.

Rowing, with the option of being able to switch between fixed-seat and sliding-seat ( different muscle groups ) is preferred as the rudder can be raised ( less drag and less fouling ) and the boat is steered by oar.

My 9 1/2 foot oar system weighs 7 pounds total. My pedal system is more than double that AND there is this huge hole in the bottom of my boat that creates drag when not in use and drag when the pedals are deployed.

I'm not going to win the race by human power so I'm biased to oars. My boat is lighter for it and therefore faster under sail.

Oh, and another plus is oars fail a lot less than pedal systems...

 

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13 minutes ago, BarfBag said:

Pedaling is the most numerically ( theoretically ) efficient, but fouling can be an issue, and you need a rudder, which can also foul.

Rowing, with the option of being able to switch between fixed-seat and sliding-seat ( different muscle groups ) is preferred as the rudder can be raised ( less drag and less fouling ) and the boat is steered by oar.

My 9 1/2 foot oar system weighs 7 pounds total. My pedal system is more than double that AND there is this huge hole in the bottom of my boat that creates drag when not in use and drag when the pedals are deployed.

I'm not going to win the race by human power so I'm biased to oars. My boat is lighter for it and therefore faster under sail.

Oh, and another plus is oars fail a lot less than pedal systems...

 

Interesting analysis - the same I went through a while back, but with different outcomes. My original plan was to use oars, but I opted for the Mirage Drive for the following reasons:

- Takes up less space

- Easier to "motorsail"

- No need to turn around and re-arrange the seating when changing from sail to oar. 

- Hole in bottom of boat closes up with neoprene when drive is extracted.

- Efficiency of peddle.

- Peddling in a dry suit is less cumbersome than rowing in a dry suit.

I agree with you on the possibility of fouling - the CB and rudder swing up and the drive can be removed and replaced in mere seconds. There is the possibility of damage to the flippers, but spare parts will cover that.

Boat is a 18.5ft trimaran.

https://www.facebook.com/TeamACER2AK2018/

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12 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I'm not exactly tough, but I managed to do the race by making sure that I got plenty of rest. I anchored every night and pushed as hard as I could when there was wind. It didn't seem to matter when I finished, only that I didn't wreck the boat by being stupid. You don't need balls, just some seamanship, navigation, and sailing skills 

I didn't make a lot of miles pedaling. Human power was more to get to the wind or get around a corner. That being said, there was wind last year. This year the race starts a bit later, so who knows...

I'm not a huge fan of rowing big boats, but I have gimpy wrists that don't like rowing. I do like pedal power, but pedal power for boats is a developing art...

Well,  Holder 20 seems like a good way to go, to me.  I'm not a multihull guy.  Holder 20 doesn't weigh that much, and for it's size is somewhat narrow without too much wetted surface. So it would row horribly, but less horribly than say, the lasses on their Santana 20 last time.  I have an S2 7.9 right now, and rowing or pedaling that would just be bluidy awful for any sigificant distance at all. Also, the seat fronts on the Holder 20 are parallel and straight fore-aft in the cockpit, so bolting on an aluminum rail and making a simple sliding seat system in the cockpit is doable.

The idea of "I'm rowing to the next windline" is a lot more comprehensible to me than "I'm rowing all day long until I see 8+ knots of breeze".  I watched a mess of the Boston Whaler Harpoon guys videos and it just looked bluidy miserable.  At least the Holder has someplace to go hide down below out of the rain. Your sleeping bag will (hopefully) stay dry. Also, the Holder can stand up to at least a modicum of shite that could be thrown at it in the Strait.  I had, until last week, a CLC skerry. The notion of taking that blew my mind, but I notice that the guy who had the expedition skerry only made it halfway up Vancouver Island last year. I guess he  got seriously sick, though.

BTW, I liked the Seascape 18 guy two years ago,  that seemed like a pretty do-able way to get the job done, but cha-chinggggg $$$

 

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The thing is, I'd have to do it solo. I've learned from hard experience that trusting 95% of people  to actually do what they've said they'd do is a complete waste of time.  To hang hundreds of hours of my time and thousands of dollars on the commitment of someone else is asking for misery.  Besides, I've been that guy that backed out a couple of times, too.    So I'd go solo. That way there's only one person to let me down.  However, that limits the size and complexity and expense of  the project..... a good thing.

No.  Texas 200 first.

But I can watch and drool.

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46 minutes ago, Alan H said:

At least the Holder has someplace to go hide down below out of the rain. Your sleeping bag will (hopefully) stay dry.

Ha!  Don't count on it.  In 2016 on the F-31 tri, our sleeping bags got soaked in heavy weather.  The boat was mostly dry, but once it got rough we found there were a few hard-to-identify leaks that brought in humidity, not to mention there's always some water brought in when you trundle inside with all your wet weather gear.

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1 hour ago, galacticair said:

Ha!  Don't count on it.  In 2016 on the F-31 tri, our sleeping bags got soaked in heavy weather.  The boat was mostly dry, but once it got rough we found there were a few hard-to-identify leaks that brought in humidity, not to mention there's always some water brought in when you trundle inside with all your wet weather gear.

Yeah, I kinda figured as much.  I'd probably opt for a double-layer polypro fleece bag for exactly this reason.

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5 hours ago, Alan H said:

The thing is, I'd have to do it solo. I've learned from hard experience that trusting 95% of people  to actually do what they've said they'd do is a complete waste of time.  To hang hundreds of hours of my time and thousands of dollars on the commitment of someone else is asking for misery.  Besides, I've been that guy that backed out a couple of times, too.    So I'd go solo. That way there's only one person to let me down.  However, that limits the size and complexity and expense of  the project..... a good thing.

No.  Texas 200 first.

But I can watch and drool.

Texas is pretty frigging boring compared to what you will see between here and Ketchikan. If you go and don't worry about placing, have a bit of luck, and hold your mouth right, it might just be the best sailing of your life. It sounds like your choice of boat is pretty humble and doable.

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AlanH

As someone who lives on the other side of the world and having checked out both races, I have to say that if I lived in North America, I would have done R2AK by now... Not so Texas 200. No comparison. The only advantage that the Texas 200 gives you apart from being much shorter/easier is a dry sleeping bag..... provided you don’t sweat too much......

Take Russell’s advice. And prepare well, don’t push too hard and enjoy the scenery. The only thing you have to beat is the Grim Sweeper.....

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Didn’t somebody try a tri :) with SUP paddles?  What was the verdict on that?

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

Didn’t somebody try a tri :) with SUP paddles?  What was the verdict on that?

we had sup paddles to supplement our peddle drive and in case the pedal drive broke.  No comparison to a proper pedal drive... took two of us on the sup paddles to equal the speed of a casual pedaler.

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Few sleep during the R2AK but you may be able to rest occasionally... or die.

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1 hour ago, foiledagain said:

we had sup paddles to supplement our peddle drive and in case the pedal drive broke.  No comparison to a proper pedal drive... took two of us on the sup paddles to equal the speed of a casual pedaler.

Assuming a light wind flyer, would SUP paddles be enough, counting simplicity, weight & only the Grim Reaper as competition?

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46 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

^^^Hot Mess Racing did in the O30 with 4 crew. A couple of them are SA'ists and may see your post.

http://www.olson30.org/racing/r2ak-hot-mess-takes-on-the-race-to-alaska-2016/

 

 

Thanks Norse- If I dropped a paddle overboard I would be tossed overboard and told to kick :rolleyes: !

Have to experiment.  We could paddle our U20 at 2k with 2 canoe paddles.  A nice steady 2 knots, once we got going....

 

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

Have to experiment.  We could paddle our U20 at 2k with 2 canoe paddles.  A nice steady 2 knots, once we got going....

Two knots on this course isn't much better than drifting when the current is favorable and anchoring when it's not, eh?

 

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5 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Two knots on this course isn't much better than drifting when the current is favorable and anchoring when it's not, eh?

 

It's two knots more than you would do without the paddling.

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It's two knots more than you would do without the paddling.

 

3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

It's two knots more than you would do without the paddling.

The joys of motor sailing, or as LFH put it E!E!.

:P

(would LFH dig emoticons?)

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It was a huge eyeopener for me how powerful it is to have human assisted sailing during a race.  Punching through waves, getting around a high current point with a quick sprint, pinching without fear of stalling, and even just for a few hours a day to get a workout.  We suffer from the race rules again by not allowing manual power.  Short tacking a beachcat in low winds, for example, is way more fun with a SUP paddle or two.

Men's Slope Style Skiing right now, fucking amazing.

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1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

It was a huge eyeopener for me how powerful it is to have human assisted sailing during a race.  Punching through waves, getting around a high current point with a quick sprint, pinching without fear of stalling, and even just for a few hours a day to get a workout.........

All that and more..... especially as a back up if you have combined electric auxiliary power.......

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On 14/02/2018 at 7:04 AM, Amati said:

Rick, recumbent spinning is great for power, but not for torque- torque being very hard on the knees (Ask any long term 'bent rider about the difficulties of climbing).   Is there a bright line as far as torque and knee longevity?  What kind of torque at the pedals does a low speed longer span blade require?    

Pedal length, sprocket sizes, front hub height etc all go into this, but I've never looked onto the technical end of it, mainly augmenting my recumbents with E power to find comfort/speed going up hill, and not having any symptoms afterwards.  My sense of it was I was always overEpowered.  Using off the shelf friction equipment and all, which was limiting as far as power choices....

(edit:  FWIW, I've been riding recumbents since 1982, and getting enough gear reduction (like in a 3*9 setup) to climb comfortably usually means walking is faster:lol:)    

The key performance factor is POWER.  With a prop and pedal drive there are primarily two factors affecting the relationship between torque and power; the prop pitch and the gear ratio between crank and prop shaft.  The prop diameter also has a slight bearing on the relationship but is typically very small influence as any slip translates directly to reduced efficiency.  On my boats the prop slip is around 2% in calm conditions and could be 3% in heavy going.  

For endurance racing the key factor for knee load is the closing angle between thigh and torso.  That is affected by crank length, seat back angle and distance from seat to crank.  Ideally the angle does not get below 100 degrees.  

The linked photo shows one of the best endurance riders in the world on his round Australia record bike:

Near-Canberra-640w.jpg

He did the 15,000km unassisted in under 50 days - best day 417km.  You can see his full leg stretch is almost straight.  The back angle is around 20 degrees and his closing angle is a little under 100 degrees.  It is then a matter of using the gears to avoid working muscles anaerobically.  Indeed, the speed up a long steep hill might be slower than walking.  For example, pushing 100kg up a 10% grade at 10kph translates to 980N at 0.28m/s or 280W without accounting for losses.  That requires some level of training as well as reasonable fitness.  A trained rider needs to spin around 100rpm to achieve that output within muscle aerobic output.  Matt Johnson can hold around 330W for 1 hour spinning around 85rpm but I think that is hard on muscles unless he is in top condition.   

For high power sprints the thigh-torso closing angle might be set below 80 degrees.  That is much harder on the knees but is only short duration.  When I sprint I slide forward on the seat and use my arms to lock me in place.  The attached photo shows the difference in back angle between Greg K and his wife.  Helen is not an experienced recumbent rider and preferred a more upright position.  A low back angle also increases the weight carried on the back rather than the rump so the rump muscles get better blood flow and obviously lowers windage for forward facing pedaler. 

The gearing should be such that the pedals feel almost awkwardly light at the sustainable power for the first 20 minutes.  For power output determination I recommend spending no less than 1 hour on a recumbent exercise machine to find the preferred cadence and power output at sustainable heart rate.  If there is any muscle fatigue after that time then the cadence is too low.  If there is breathlessness then power output and heart rate are above sustainable.

I always use a heart rate monitor with a $100 cycling GPS to monitor speed relative to HR.  This is a good measure of overall performance - per attached chart.  In calm conditions I can detect a single strand of weed by the difference between my expected speed and actual.  I can see the effect of wind/waves using speed difference upwind and downwind.   The unit also provides cadence and I can use that to determine the impact of current.  That is important in rivers and tidal areas.

With regard to knee issues, most novice recumbent riders have the back angle far steeper than ideal for endurance pedalling.  I prefer around 30 degrees so I can use my torso to control roll.  There are other factors with knee in-line alignment that can cause knee pain.  I have to pay attention to my left knee wandering outward from the in-line position.   

 

Special_K.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-02-19 at 6.09.12 pm.png

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2 hours ago, RickW said:

The key performance factor is POWER.  With a prop and pedal drive there are primarily two factors affecting the relationship between torque and power; the prop pitch and the gear ratio between crank and prop shaft.  The prop diameter also has a slight bearing on the relationship but is typically very small influence as any slip translates directly to reduced efficiency.  On my boats the prop slip is around 2% in calm conditions and could be 3% in heavy going.  

For endurance racing the key factor for knee load is the closing angle between thigh and torso.  That is affected by crank length, seat back angle and distance from seat to crank.  Ideally the angle does not get below 100 degrees.  

The linked photo shows one of the best endurance riders in the world on his round Australia record bike:

Near-Canberra-640w.jpg

He did the 15,000km unassisted in under 50 days - best day 417km.  You can see his full leg stretch is almost straight.  The back angle is around 20 degrees and his closing angle is a little under 100 degrees.  It is then a matter of using the gears to avoid working muscles anaerobically.  Indeed, the speed up a long steep hill might be slower than walking.  For example, pushing 100kg up a 10% grade at 10kph translates to 980N at 0.28m/s or 280W without accounting for losses.  That requires some level of training as well as reasonable fitness.  A trained rider needs to spin around 100rpm to achieve that output within muscle aerobic output.  Matt Johnson can hold around 330W for 1 hour spinning around 85rpm but I think that is hard on muscles unless he is in top condition.   

For high power sprints the thigh-torso closing angle might be set below 80 degrees.  That is much harder on the knees but is only short duration.  When I sprint I slide forward on the seat and use my arms to lock me in place.  The attached photo shows the difference in back angle between Greg K and his wife.  Helen is not an experienced recumbent rider and preferred a more upright position.  A low back angle also increases the weight carried on the back rather than the rump so the rump muscles get better blood flow and obviously lowers windage for forward facing pedaler. 

The gearing should be such that the pedals feel almost awkwardly light at the sustainable power for the first 20 minutes.  For power output determination I recommend spending no less than 1 hour on a recumbent exercise machine to find the preferred cadence and power output at sustainable heart rate.  If there is any muscle fatigue after that time then the cadence is too low.  If there is breathlessness then power output and heart rate are above sustainable.

I always use a heart rate monitor with a $100 cycling GPS to monitor speed relative to HR.  This is a good measure of overall performance - per attached chart.  In calm conditions I can detect a single strand of weed by the difference between my expected speed and actual.  I can see the effect of wind/waves using speed difference upwind and downwind.   The unit also provides cadence and I can use that to determine the impact of current.  That is important in rivers and tidal areas.

With regard to knee issues, most novice recumbent riders have the back angle far steeper than ideal for endurance pedalling.  I prefer around 30 degrees so I can use my torso to control roll.  There are other factors with knee in-line alignment that can cause knee pain.  I have to pay attention to my left knee wandering outward from the in-line position.   

 

Special_K.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-02-19 at 6.09.12 pm.png

Neat boat!  The nice thing about recumbent pedaling in a boat (vs on 2 wheels) looks that lying as flat as you are doesn’t carry the falling-over-at-slow-speed penalty- on the boat,  you probably have better stability, windage, etc with the lower profile.  

I’m going to mess with the info you’ve given me, especially paying attention to the lateral wandering knee.  I usually keep my cadence up and light pressure on the pedals by pulling the stroke rather than pushing it.  My Stratos XP is the best climber (‘bent) I’ve had, and  your info has illuminated why that might be as far as ergonomics.  Still, when I’ve got things really flat, she gets wobbly at low speeds, hence the e friction drive.  Unless you go titanium on a trike (it’s only $$$, right?) low speed is a problem.  

Anyway, back to boating applications, I’m spinning indoors because of the snow and ice outside, and I’m going to mess with your geometry suggestions.  I can keep up 100 watts effortlessly for hours on my dedicated spinning machine (it has integral instrumentation), but the seat is a hard pain-in-the ass/back nightmare.  Are you using Greenspeed frames on the boat?  No headrest on the RANS, so lying really flat gets a bit wearing on the neck. 

I have a couple of other questions, if you don’t mind, but I think I need some pics with ‘em.  Have you found lowering cg on a boat a big help?

This is a big subject, and you’ve done a lot of work on it- kudos!

 

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:

Anyway, back to boating applications, I’m spinning indoors because of the snow and ice outside, and I’m going to mess with your geometry suggestions.  I can keep up 100 watts effortlessly for hours on my dedicated spinning machine (it has integral instrumentation), but the seat is a hard pain-in-the ass/back nightmare.  Are you using Greenspeed frames on the boat?  No headrest on the RANS, so lying really flat gets a bit wearing on the neck. 

I have a couple of other questions, if you don’t mind, but I think I need some pics with ‘em.  Have you found lowering cg on a boat a big help?

The moulded carbon seats with some padding are light and quite comfortable.  I can make a carbon-foam sandwich seat that weighs 300g without padding.  The Greenspeed nylon mesh seats are comfortable but heavy by comparison.  It is not uncommon to include a head rest in the seat.  The shoulder angle is usually around 80 degrees and the neck/head rest vertical.

This link shows the Trisled seat with headrest:

http://trisled.com.au/hpv/gizmo/

This shows Trisled seat items with prices:

http://trisled.com.au/product-category/seats-seat-pads/

A few pedal boats in the USA have seats from Oceancycle in the UK:

http://oceancycle.co.uk/products,seatsAndAccessories

The OC fibreglass seat is good value in the UK but mail cost makes it less attractive.

It is possible to make a form fitting seat starting with some wet glass between plastic sheets moulded into a bean bag that you sit in till the epoxy sets.  Body heat gets the curing going in 30 minutes or so.  The body mould can be reinforced and faired to be used as a mould for a foam sandwich seat.  3mm thick marine foam can have darts cut to enable moulding to the shape then heat applied to get it to follow the dish shape.  The layup needs to be sand bagged or vacuum based to get it to conform well to the mould.  The backside will be as neat as the finish on the mould and the topside will have some covering so finish is not of concern. 

The Trisled developable panel shape works quite well.  The right general shape for your body size with a little padding is as good as a perfectly moulded shell.

Sitting low on a boat that has high initial stability but low ultimate stability is not particularly good.  If a stabiliser gets fully immersed the boat will roll so there is merit in being able to influence the list from wind for example with elevated weight moving side-to-side.  I feel prone in a highly reclined position; more or less at the mercy of the waves and wind.  My seat back is around 30 degrees.  I know from experience that a seat back angle of 60 degrees is terrible for the knees.  Of course there is some relationship between the height of the seat and height of the crank

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8 hours ago, RickW said:

The key performance factor is POWER.  With a prop and pedal drive there are primarily two factors affecting the relationship between torque and power; the prop pitch and the gear ratio between crank and prop shaft.  The prop diameter also has a slight bearing on the relationship but is typically very small influence as any slip translates directly to reduced efficiency.  On my boats the prop slip is around 2% in calm conditions and could be 3% in heavy going.  

For endurance racing the key factor for knee load is the closing angle between thigh and torso.  That is affected by crank length, seat back angle and distance from seat to crank.  Ideally the angle does not get below 100 degrees.  

The linked photo shows one of the best endurance riders in the world on his round Australia record bike:

Near-Canberra-640w.jpg

He did the 15,000km unassisted in under 50 days - best day 417km.  You can see his full leg stretch is almost straight.  The back angle is around 20 degrees and his closing angle is a little under 100 degrees.  It is then a matter of using the gears to avoid working muscles anaerobically.  Indeed, the speed up a long steep hill might be slower than walking.  For example, pushing 100kg up a 10% grade at 10kph translates to 980N at 0.28m/s or 280W without accounting for losses.  That requires some level of training as well as reasonable fitness.  A trained rider needs to spin around 100rpm to achieve that output within muscle aerobic output.  Matt Johnson can hold around 330W for 1 hour spinning around 85rpm but I think that is hard on muscles unless he is in top condition.   

For high power sprints the thigh-torso closing angle might be set below 80 degrees.  That is much harder on the knees but is only short duration.  When I sprint I slide forward on the seat and use my arms to lock me in place.  The attached photo shows the difference in back angle between Greg K and his wife.  Helen is not an experienced recumbent rider and preferred a more upright position.  A low back angle also increases the weight carried on the back rather than the rump so the rump muscles get better blood flow and obviously lowers windage for forward facing pedaler. 

The gearing should be such that the pedals feel almost awkwardly light at the sustainable power for the first 20 minutes.  For power output determination I recommend spending no less than 1 hour on a recumbent exercise machine to find the preferred cadence and power output at sustainable heart rate.  If there is any muscle fatigue after that time then the cadence is too low.  If there is breathlessness then power output and heart rate are above sustainable.

I always use a heart rate monitor with a $100 cycling GPS to monitor speed relative to HR.  This is a good measure of overall performance - per attached chart.  In calm conditions I can detect a single strand of weed by the difference between my expected speed and actual.  I can see the effect of wind/waves using speed difference upwind and downwind.   The unit also provides cadence and I can use that to determine the impact of current.  That is important in rivers and tidal areas.

With regard to knee issues, most novice recumbent riders have the back angle far steeper than ideal for endurance pedalling.  I prefer around 30 degrees so I can use my torso to control roll.  There are other factors with knee in-line alignment that can cause knee pain.  I have to pay attention to my left knee wandering outward from the in-line position.   

 

Special_K.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-02-19 at 6.09.12 pm.png

Surprises me to hear you say that about POWER when it's clearly known weight is the key performance factor in boat performance.

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5 hours ago, BarfBag said:

Surprises me to hear you say that about POWER when it's clearly known weight is the key performance factor in boat performance.

In the context of the original question, the boat is a given.  So weight is given. Also the weight of a pedal drive system is not really a concern for R2AK boats as it is a small proportion of the overall weight.  Drive weight is likely a greater concern for ease of stowing if that is a requirement.

The point is that POWER matters and is the key measure of human capacity.  The drive train should be chosen in combination with the selected prop to maximise the boat speed for a given human capacity.   With a set gear ratio there could be times when the human becomes torque constrained in the circumstances of pushing a head wind.  That requires reduced power input to avoid muscle fatigue.  In the circumstances of motor-sailing it is possible to become rev limited.  I cannot keep up with the pedals on my standard drive system above 11kts when motor-sailing.  

 

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R2AK Crew wanted, posted on the r2ak fb and Matheau's fb.

Wants a teammate willing to buy his sexy new RAID boat so he will not have to ship it back. They are making 8 of them and it would be the first in NA.

Weight is 150kg with a fg, carbon and foam hull. It has some great features, including an impressive cockpit/dodger/tent you can sit in the cockpit under. The main has no boom. The mast is short at 7m, carrying 12m of flat top and an 11m gennaker. Typo on the page lists a 10m main or 12 is the option perhaps.

Just the thing for the late June wind of the r2ak. The list is 25k euro inc French VAT of 20%

Who woldn't want a teammate with that kind of worldclass rowing experience...

http://rowandsail.liteboat.fr/boats/litexp/

10 knots in 12kn wind here.

 

See the tent here.

 

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On 2018-02-15 at 7:27 PM, Norse Horse said:

Make Bowen Island proud!

You two will have a blast.

See you in 2019, then

Thanks.  We've got lots of folks following us already - should be fun!  (Getting down to PT will be an adventure in itself...)

(But, not sure what you mean by Sep 2019?)

Jud (and Miranda)

Team Calico Race to Alaska

https://m.facebook.com/mightycalico/

 

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24 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Thanks.  We've got lots of folks following us already - should be fun!  (Getting down to PT will be an adventure in itself...)

(But, not sure what you mean by Sep 2019?)

Jud (and Miranda)

Team Calico Race to Alaska

https://m.facebook.com/mightycalico/

 

Hey, read your newsclip and another on BC sharks http://www.bowenislandundercurrent.com/news/nothing-to-worry-about-here-just-a-shark-nursery-off-vancouver-s-coast-1.23177357

I will be signing up for 2019, the full race. A smallll chance for this year but likely will just take the Young 6m on my own adventure up the coast this summer when I get the chance. I did a lot of mods to the boat including the ability to dump half or all the water ballast as required, for rowing and light air.

Colin Angus has the rowing setup for sale on his website if you are looking. https://angusrowboats.com/collections/kits/products/sliding-seat-rigger-hardware-kit-with-carbon-fibre-seat

He also has wooden oar plans and kits if you want to make them or need longer ones.https://angusrowboats.com/pages/wooden-oars

Duckworks have the oarlocks, fast delivery too. Duckworks Magazine

 

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4 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

Hey, read your newsclip and another on BC sharks http://www.bowenislandundercurrent.com/news/nothing-to-worry-about-here-just-a-shark-nursery-off-vancouver-s-coast-1.23177357

I will be signing up for 2019, the full race. A smallll chance for this year but likely will just take the Young 6m on my own adventure up the coast this summer when I get the chance. I did a lot of mods to the boat including the ability to dump half or all the water ballast as required, for rowing and light air.

Colin Angus has the rowing setup for sale on his website if you are looking.

https://angusrowboats.com/collections/kits/products/sliding-seat-rigger-hardware-kit-with-carbon-fibre-seat

He also has wooden oar plans and kits if you want to make them or need longer ones.https://angusrowboats.com/pages/wooden-oars

Duckworks have the oarlocks, fast delivery too. Duckworks Magazine

 

Awesome - thanks for the info.  We're actually talking about making oars (for next year, rename as Team Salish Sea?), like the real old timers did.  (R2AK site quote: "The inside passage to Alaska has been paddled by native canoes since time immemorial [...] It’s in the spirit of tradition, exploration [...] that Race to Alaska was born."

Duckworks - thanks a lot - great oarlock selection.  Brainstorming/creating rowing set up is our next project.

Sharks...yes, we breed them here (we may *look* like gentle islanders, but... :-) )

Well, if we're ever passing through Squamish this spring/summer, I'd love to have a peek at your rowing set up. 

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16 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Awesome - thanks for the info.  We're actually talking about making oars (for next year, rename as Team Salish Sea?), like the real old timers did.  (R2AK site quote: "The inside passage to Alaska has been paddled by native canoes since time immemorial [...] It’s in the spirit of tradition, exploration [...] that Race to Alaska was born."

Duckworks - thanks a lot - great oarlock selection.  Brainstorming/creating rowing set up is our next project.

Sharks...yes, we breed them here (we may *look* like gentle islanders, but... :-) )

Well, if we're ever passing through Squamish this spring/summer, I'd love to have a peek at your rowing set up. 

I have a pair of 12 1/2' carbon-fiber sweep-oars (one per person) with "clever" blades available but I'm in Victoria.

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Why can't I correct my spelling mistake above, duh...

It should read "cleaver" not clever, that would be stupid.

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  Barf

 

       You had me going with the 'clever' blades thing. I thought that maybe someone had figured out how to bet the blades to auto-feather on the return stroke, that would be pretty clever!

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It's the latest marketing ploy:

CLEVER BLADES  not to be confused with "smart blades" they're so passe.

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On 2/16/2018 at 6:45 PM, Russell Brown said:

Texas is pretty frigging boring compared to what you will see between here and Ketchikan. If you go and don't worry about placing, have a bit of luck, and hold your mouth right, it might just be the best sailing of your life. It sounds like your choice of boat is pretty humble and doable.

Completely agree.  Flat Texas can't hold a candle to the R2AK scenery.  It's just that the R2AK, the way I would do it, is a  month-long proposition in the rain, rowing every day and I have a dodgy shoulder right now.  The T200 is 4 days in tons of wind, I will only have to row about 2, 3x, a few hundred yards each time.   Also the R2AK is mostly raced by pretty "hot" and "cool" boats. The T200 welcomes home-built, flat bottom sharpies and easy stuff like that.  They're totally different events.

The upside to the R2AK is  1.) I have friends in Port Townsend that I'd like to visit and 2.) it's a lot less driving than Texas.

It's worth noting that it's possible to do both events, just in different years. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Alan H said:

Completely agree.  Flat Texas can't hold a candle to the R2AK scenery.  It's just that the R2AK, the way I would do it, is a  month-long proposition in the rain, rowing every day and I have a dodgy shoulder right now.  The T200 is 4 days in tons of wind, I will only have to row about 2, 3x, a few hundred yards each time.   Also the R2AK is mostly raced by pretty "hot" and "cool" boats. The T200 welcomes home-built, flat bottom sharpies and easy stuff like that.  They're totally different events.

The upside to the R2AK is  1.) I have friends in Port Townsend that I'd like to visit and 2.) it's a lot less driving than Texas.

It's worth noting that it's possible to do both events, just in different years. 

 

Alan,

To be in contention for the $10,000 first prize you will need a hotshot boat and crew, but have a look at the rest of the field. Lots of home-built boats and boats that were purchased off eBay and fixed in home garages to complete the race (adventure). The R2AK boat will have to be a little more sea worthy I believe due to the conditions.

My boat (built in my garage) does not classify as "hot" or "cool", but it is the hottest, coolest boat in my mind. I know I do not have any hope to get the $10,000 prize, but just completing the race is good enough for me. There are a few other boats of my caliber and I know of at least one side bet going on. 

Do the R2AK, just beat the Reaper.

https://www.facebook.com/TeamACER2AK2018/

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2 hours ago, dsackman said:

Lots of home-built boats and boats that were purchased off eBay and fixed in home garages to complete the race (adventure). The R2AK boat will have to be a little more sea worthy I believe due to the conditions.

20% of the fleet (7 out of 34) last year were DNFhttps://r2ak.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-R2AK-Vic-to-KTN-7.04.17.pdf

24% (8 out of 34) took between ~18 to ~22 days to finish.  Grueling.

35% (12 of 34) finished within ten days.

9% (3 of 34) finished in less than a week.

Seaworthy?  Oh yeah, that's important!

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

20% of the fleet (7 out of 34) last year were DNFhttps://r2ak.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-R2AK-Vic-to-KTN-7.04.17.pdf

24% (8 out of 34) took between ~18 to ~22 days to finish.  Grueling.

35% (12 of 34) finished within ten days.

9% (3 of 34) finished in less than a week.

Seaworthy?  Oh yeah, that's important!

Interesting stats - either shorten the suffering, but make it more intense - 10 days, or spread the same suffering over 20 days :D     Choose your sauce.

Look at the following rough calculations:

750 miles over 10 days = 75 miles per day.

To achieve that you need to move for:

10 hrs/day at an average of 7.4mph

12                                             6.25mph

14                                             5.4mph

16                                             4.6mph

For a single crew that is quite rough, but it was shown to be doable. That is, if you want to look like Roger Mann at the end - respect!

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31 minutes ago, dsackman said:

Interesting stats - either shorten the suffering, but make it more intense - 10 days, or spread the same suffering over 20 days :D     Choose your sauce.

Look at the following rough calculations:

750 miles over 10 days = 75 miles per day.

To achieve that you need to move for:

10 hrs/day at an average of 7.4mph

12                                             6.25mph

14                                             5.4mph

16                                             4.6mph

For a single crew that is quite rough, but it was shown to be doable. That is, if you want to look like Roger Mann at the end - respect!

Russell Brown did it singlehanded (sailing) in 9 days and 6 hours (750 miles / 9.25 days = 81 miles per day), and rarely pushed it 12 hours or more per day, as I recall.  That's an average of ~7 to 8 knots (or more?).

To put another spin on those stats, 44% took 18 to 22 days or didn't finish at all.  21% (7 boats) took 10 to 17 days.

My own longest passage at sea was 12.5 days from Kauai to Los Angeles, delivering a 76' racing catamaran.  Conditions were spartan but NOTHING like the small boats in the R2AK.  By the end, I was SO READY to get off that boat!  Small crew sailing 24/7, it seemed like a very long trip.

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Thanks for the statistics, Proa. Last year had lots of following winds and not as much calm as it could have been. I sure hope it's the same this year.

That's a really cool trimaran, Ace. It has a lot of similarities to what I was thinking about building for the R2AK before I got the G-32. The G-32 is pretty quick when sailing, but it's a bear to make miles pedaling.

I finally ordered the pulleys for my belt driven pedal drive unit today.  Having the parts before starting the design work seems to help, even if they don't end up being the right parts in the end.

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At our usual cruising speed of roughly 40 miles per day, we would take 19 days. Last year we left from Gabriola to go around Vcr Island. We may go to Haida Gwaii this year, so will be doing the same route again to the top of Vcr Island. Not sure of timing if we will be out there with the R2AK boats. I think the hard push has to be from Campbell River to the top of the big island. We have struggled with it with the diesel. 

Unkle Krusty

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7 hours ago, dsackman said:

Do the R2AK, just beat the Reaper.

Sing along with Team Kingsfold!

Turn it up loud! :-)  (the last line is the most important)

 

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Russell Brown did it singlehanded (sailing) in 9 days and 6 hours (750 miles / 9.25 days = 81 miles per day), and rarely pushed it 12 hours or more per day, as I recall.  That's an average of ~7 to 8 knots (or more?).

To put another spin on those stats, 44% took 18 to 22 days or didn't finish at all.  21% (7 boats) took 10 to 17 days.

My own longest passage at sea was 12.5 days from Kauai to Los Angeles, delivering a 76' racing catamaran.  Conditions were spartan but NOTHING like the small boats in the R2AK.  By the end, I was SO READY to get off that boat!  Small crew sailing 24/7, it seemed like a very long trip.

We met a guy in his mid/late 70s in Tribune Bay, Hornby Island last summer.  We noticed him right away, because we're always the smallest boat in every anchorage:  he was smaller, a Montgomery 17!  Naturally, we chatted with him - he told me he and his friend took 18 days, and they always left with favourable tide. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Unkle Crusty said:

At our usual cruising speed of roughly 40 miles per day, we would take 19 days. Last year we left from Gabriola to go around Vcr Island. We may go to Haida Gwaii this year, so will be doing the same route again to the top of Vcr Island. Not sure of timing if we will be out there with the R2AK boats. I think the hard push has to be from Campbell River to the top of the big island. We have struggled with it with the diesel. 

Unkle Krusty

We went the back route, through the islands and rapids. No issues, nice scenery.

http://paradigmchafe.blogspot.ca/2013/07/on-track.html

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23 hours ago, dsackman said:

Alan,

To be in contention for the $10,000 first prize you will need a hotshot boat and crew, but have a look at the rest of the field. Lots of home-built boats and boats that were purchased off eBay and fixed in home garages to complete the race (adventure). The R2AK boat will have to be a little more sea worthy I believe due to the conditions.

My boat (built in my garage) does not classify as "hot" or "cool", but it is the hottest, coolest boat in my mind. I know I do not have any hope to get the $10,000 prize, but just completing the race is good enough for me. There are a few other boats of my caliber and I know of at least one side bet going on. 

Do the R2AK, just beat the Reaper.

https://www.facebook.com/TeamACER2AK2018/

Your boat is pretty cool.  My heroes and role model are the Bunny Whaler guys from last year, but man, that looks miserable.

Me?  I'd take an old Holder 20, maybe add an assy prod, and set up sliding seat rowing in the cockpit. That's a $5,000 investment.

The the T200 I'll  make a 15 foot flat-bottom skiff, probably the Simplicity Boats "least cuts" skiff, which will cost me about $300 and four weekends to build. I already have the rig.  I'm of the opinion that I'd be flippin' idiot to take a 15 foot open skiff on the R2AK.

All that said, the new LiteBoat XP is 'way cool.  I'd love one except for $25K it's a bit rich for my pocketbook and it's of limited use around central California.

Anyway, the R2Ak is not out of the question, it's just gonna be a few years before I can do it. I have another "big" project...much bigger than the T200 in the fire right now.  so I'll watch and cheer.

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3 hours ago, Alan H said:

Your boat is pretty cool.  My heroes and role model are the Bunny Whaler guys from last year, but man, that looks miserable.

Me?  I'd take an old Holder 20, maybe add an assy prod, and set up sliding seat rowing in the cockpit. That's a $5,000 investment.

The the T200 I'll  make a 15 foot flat-bottom skiff, probably the Simplicity Boats "least cuts" skiff, which will cost me about $300 and four weekends to build. I already have the rig.  I'm of the opinion that I'd be flippin' idiot to take a 15 foot open skiff on the R2AK.

All that said, the new LiteBoat XP is 'way cool.  I'd love one except for $25K it's a bit rich for my pocketbook and it's of limited use around central California.

Anyway, the R2Ak is not out of the question, it's just gonna be a few years before I can do it. I have another "big" project...much bigger than the T200 in the fire right now.  so I'll watch and cheer.

I  thought I will be able to get away with $5,000 by building a boat myself. It figures out that the sails and wood alone was more than $5,000. Then add the electronics, autotiller, GPS and all the other paraphernalia it gets expensive very quickly.

If you like the LiteBoat XP you may also like the Colin Angus sailing rowcruiser. Similar design principles and not $25k.

Russel, thank you for the compliment on my boat. It is the TriRaid 560S from Klaus Metz. Roger Mann took one up a few years ago, and there was a finisher in 2017. She is quite impressive and I think Klaus did a fantastic job on the design.

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Then there's that Alien 21 catboat that's been for sale in Oregon for I don' t know how long. Add a 4 foot carbon sprit to it?  Hmmm... Two feet out, the headsails tack on, on a small boat furler. 2 feet past that goes the assy.  I'm not sure how to set up a sliding seat rowing system in the cockpit, though.

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2 hours ago, Alan H said:

Then there's that Alien 21 catboat that's been for sale in Oregon for I don' t know how long. Add a 4 foot carbon sprit to it?  Hmmm... Two feet out, the headsails tack on, on a small boat furler. 2 feet past that goes the assy.  I'm not sure how to set up a sliding seat rowing system in the cockpit, though.

This one? http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/62496  (sweet!)

main.jpg

 

Or this one?  http://www.scari.org/z.alien.21.too.html

Alien21.3.JPG

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I love the "scare-cat" (kinda like a scarecrow) on the boom to keep the birds AND rats away!!

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No intent to throw stones here but I am not getting the Liteboat thing.  Cool boat when you can keep it light.  But I recall the M32 guys being real weight Nazis for good reason and them still needing to carry a lot (even for what was a short duration).   Liteboat will have to plan for a longer trip and more gear.... how does it not get turned into a slow heavy dog boat?  I gotta be missing something here, but unless you can really blitz the course its seems (??) like you gotta carry so much gear that a super light displacement boat is not the way to go??

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15 hours ago, Alan H said:

Then there's that Alien 21 catboat that's been for sale in Oregon for I don' t know how long. Add a 4 foot carbon sprit to it?  Hmmm... Two feet out, the headsails tack on, on a small boat furler. 2 feet past that goes the assy.  I'm not sure how to set up a sliding seat rowing system in the cockpit, though.

Now there's a fun idea for our antique Cal 20: a sprit!  I like it.  Definitely on the project list for next year, when we plan R2AK all the way (Stage 1 only this year).  Have been thinking of fun ways to trick out the old boat... :-)

Jud

Team Calico - Race to Alaska 

https://m.facebook.com/mightycalico/

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

No intent to throw stones here but I am not getting the Liteboat thing.  Cool boat when you can keep it light.  But I recall the M32 guys being real weight Nazis for good reason and them still needing to carry a lot (even for what was a short duration).   Liteboat will have to plan for a longer trip and more gear.... how does it not get turned into a slow heavy dog boat?  I gotta be missing something here, but unless you can really blitz the course its seems (??) like you gotta carry so much gear that a super light displacement boat is not the way to go??

I agree Wess. It's one thing to design a light boat, it's another to keep it light . And when you don't,performance usually goes for a shit.

And, the faster the boat is, the more water strike resistance strength is needed for all those dead-heads, awash sea-containers, submarines, meandering whales, rocks!

And that strength means more weight. Ah the design spiral...

I agree, no stone throwing, just reality.

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What boat will do it best? That's one of the really compelling things about his race. Ideal boats are different for everyone.

I agree about  the boat needing to be able to carry weight, but look at how the Inter 20 did last year. Maybe that was more about balls and luck.

I'm still working on the pedal drive design. I'll post the design when it's ready. 

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Back to pedal power, I was trying to look at it from the point of view of ergonomics-  a mechanical system is going to clutter our L7 (23er) to the point it seems we'll be tripping over it in sporty sailing weather, so I started thinking about a smaller system that might work attached to our existing outboard mount, and ran across David Butcher's PPPM idea (electrical generation), which has more losses than a mechanical system, but does have the possibility of less size. ? 

In the depths of my rich fantasy life, i'm wondering if I could hook a pedaled generator to an electric motor/prop mounted on our existing outboard mount..  I've seen a 100 watt solar panel turn a prop from sunlight only, and I can generate 100 watts easily, but how fast that might be sounds like a $pendy experiment.   Ideally, the generator could be moved out of the way when sailing.

http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/pppm_science.html

Any thoughts out there?

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47 minutes ago, Amati said:

Back to pedal power, I was trying to look at it from the point of view of ergonomics-  a mechanical system is going to clutter our L7 (23er) to the point it seems we'll be tripping over it in sporty sailing weather, so I started thinking about a smaller system that might work attached to our existing outboard mount, and ran across David Butcher's PPPM idea (electrical generation), which has more losses than a mechanical system, but does have the possibility of less size. ? 

In the depths of my rich fantasy life, i'm wondering if I could hook a pedaled generator to an electric motor/prop mounted on our existing outboard mount..  I've seen a 100 watt solar panel turn a prop from sunlight only, and I can generate 100 watts easily, but how fast that might be sounds like a $pendy experiment.   Ideally, the generator could be moved out of the way when sailing.

http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/pppm_science.html

Any thoughts out there?

The small electric thrusters have low electrical efficiency; in range 60 to 70% has they are high resistance motors.  I figure they do this to enable them to handle bollard pull conditions without burning out.  A generator is not going to have efficiency much above 80%.  So with an electrical transmission like this you are burning up 50% of your input power.   If you selected you own motor/generator with care you might get as high as 85% each or 72% overall.  

If you are concerned about the size of mechanical pedal systems then an alternative to belts is a pull wire.  The attached photo shows the Loomis clutch drive system in rowing mode.  The pull wire is only 1/16" thick and there is a rubber band to enable the return stroke.  Care has to be taken in running the pull wire over rollers that keep the wire captive so it stays in place when not in use.

This link shows the same boat in pedal mode.  That drive requires two capstans but the thrust is more even.  This system only requires a short tensioner to avoid slack wire.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNgnEkIdADHaeRrjVR

The attached photo shows the same boat in rowing mode.  That drive only requires a single capstan and a return band that rewinds the wire.

Rowing with a sliding seat is not quite as biomechanically efficient as cycling but it engages the big leg muscles as well as arm and back so has higher power potential.  Rowing without a sliding seat is not much different to paddling from a power perspective but with this pull wire there is no blade skill required; just brute force.  For a larger boat it is much more efficient than rowing or paddling providing the prop is selected to suit the boat.

Earlier in the thread there is a close up photo of the dual capstans on the swing arm prop drive.

 

 

Screen Shot 2018-02-28 at 9.06.30 am.png

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Nice one Rick... For rowers at least you are facing the right way, but it still doesn’t leave your hands free to do the 1001 other things you need to do on a boat preferably at the same time as producing propulsion.

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10 hours ago, solosailor said:

IMG_5194.jpg

Hi Solo,

Will you tell us about your drive unit? It looks like it's shaft driven with right-angle gears at both ends. Is there gear reduction?

I wish my pedal drive could be all in one unit as yours is. My boat will have a pedestal in the cockpit connected to a kick-up leg. Two belts and four pulleys.

Where did you find that prop? Looks like lots of pitch, which is hard to find in model airplane props.

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Russell

Solosailor’s drive unit looks very similar to the one that Randy Miller had on Mad Dog in R2AK 2016. PM Randy, I am sure he will be very helpful. There are also photos and details of it somewhere on the forum, but I can’t find them just yet.....

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Just now, Sidecar said:

Found it: Post # 306 May 25 over in 2016 R2AK

 

 

7480EDCA-886B-46B8-9915-202287DD3D5F.jpeg

 

That looks really uncomfortable for a singlehander.

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It was designed for two people, one facing each way, ie, one effectively back pedalling, but the principle is the same..... it is all in the gearing and prop size and pitch.

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9 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

It was designed for two people, one facing each way, ie, one effectively back pedalling, but the principle is the same..... it is all in the gearing and prop size and pitch.

Um...yes, I know. It was a wild stab at humour, forgive me.

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