Russell Brown

R2AK 2018

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

That off the shelf right angle drive gearbox looks rather bulky (to put it politely). If I was going that route of right angle bevel gears I'd really look at cannibalizing a small outboard motor leg, trimming off the anti-ventilation plates and mounting that to a custom leg. Typical small outboards have around 2:1 reduction in the lower hub.

I'd look at buying the lower unit from these guys:

https://www.electricpaddle.com/ep-carry-boat-motor.html

They use a 250W motor so it may already be geared about right. I talked to them at the Seattle Boat Show and they were willing to sell the whole thing without the battery for about $1000. Maybe they'd sell you the lower unit without the motor for a fraction of that, particularly if they had a "scratch and dent" lower unit laying around that they couldn't sell.  

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15 minutes ago, IStream said:

I'd look at buying the lower unit from these guys:

https://www.electricpaddle.com/ep-carry-boat-motor.html

They use a 250W motor so it may already be geared about right. I talked to them at the Seattle Boat Show and they were willing to sell the whole thing without the battery for about $1000. Maybe they'd sell you the lower unit without the motor for a fraction of that, particularly if they had a "scratch and dent" lower unit laying around that they couldn't sell.  

Those are really nice units!.  They have a nice acetal bevel gear (with reduction) that is water lubricated at the prop end.  The problem is that the gearing is opposite of what you need for a pedal drive in that they are taking a electric motor that is spinning fast and reducing the rpm to drive the prop. Also there is no bevel gear at the top of the unit like you would need for a pedal drive.... So getting one of these would not simplify the build much.  But it would be great to make a pedal drive with similar water lubricated bevel gears like this.  There was a human sub team from the University of Washington that also made their own water lubricated bevel gear from acetal with a nice 4 to 1 reduction built in.... that was the smoothest operating pedal drive mechanism I have ever felt...silky smooth with what seemed like zero drag.

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I wonder if they'd just sell the actual gears, that's the hardest part to build as a competent hobbyist.

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The hard part isn't the gears I bet - it's getting them accurately aligned in the housing so they don't chew themselves up!  Mechanical engineering of prototypes is HARD to get right on version 1.0

I bet you can buy off the shelf low power acetal bevel gears that would work fine.

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There must be dozens of companies in USA..... With all kinds of gears for all kinds of applications and duties.

Here is just one Australian one: https://www.tea.net.au/Product-Category-Modules/Products/cid/19?category=Gearboxes

I know that Rick Willoughby uses Mitrpak gearboxes, which I believe is a USA brand?

Edit:

Bear in mind also that gearbox solutions are much more expensive and heavier than belt/chain drive solutions......

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Hey Rick W,  I'm going to make a flapping foil setup for my camp proa and am wondering if you have any design guidelines / references?  I understand the foil needs to sweep rather than just pivot, and I'm thinking about using beachcat daggerboards for two foils ala Harryproa setup.  Rob says he uses the aft foil for lateral resistance and forward for steering, which is pleasantly minimalistic without an additional foil needed.  I’ll create some method to manage the angles of the foils for propulsion vs steering mode, including steering while propulsing.   I’ll take the rest of that discussion to my “Kenny’s Camp Racer” thread but figured this is the best place for manual power discussion, so specifically:

-You mention managing the angle of attack with torque arms.  Can you elaborate?  What angle / force do you target?  Is angle fixed or would a bungee / flexible system be good?  It seems like you’d want to reduce the angle as speed increases sort of like a variable pitch prop?

-The sweeps will rotate ~15 degrees either side of fore/aft axis.  Do you fix the foil angle to the sweep or to the boat axis or something in between to have a constant angle of attack for the foil?

-Would a normal 15-20% balanced foil cause any issues?  My foils will be in cassettes that will rotate 180 in a shunt so don’t need to be symmetric on fore/aft axis.

-These foils will be vertical, but some angle would be nice for weed shedding.  Does that create any issues?  Is surface piercing an issue?  Anti-ventilation fences needed?

-Initially I’ll probably hand row the sweeps, which will look pretty strange with me rowing “sideways” sitting to weather on the “tramp”, but leg power is the ultimate goal for more power and hands free.

 

Why flapping foils?  Weed shedding, shallow water, minimalistic, and I need foils for sailing anyway so less drag.  But I’ll probably compare with a Hydrobike drive for a sanity check also.

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In my view a robust design criteria for sailing boat rudders is to consider the peak force at design maximum speed and allow a 3X safety factor.  Once you design to that you realise it is a serious structure on any size boat.  Hence setting up rudders on a proa is challenging enough without trying to make them also produce thrust.  

With that word of warning I will give you an idea of what I got to work best.  It is best explained with reference to the attached photo.  The blade shown was not the best I made but the AoA control was the same as shown here.  

In principle the aim is to have the unloaded bladed always stay in line with flow.  If the crank stops the blade will self-align and the boat just coasts.  So there is a parallelogram linkage arm that keeps the blade essentially flat at all angles of sweep if there is no load on the blade.  The crank rod joined the main swing arm midpoint and provided a stroke of 1ft on the middle so the blade swept through 2ft.  This blade is 800 wide and was sweeping through 600 so quite a large area.  It was operated around 60rpm for 8kph.  Much above that caused my lightweight boat to bounce.

There is a torque rod that acts as the blade pivot running through the back end of the vertical control arm.  The control arm is pivoted off the very back of the swing arm.  The torque rod is connected to the blade at the extremity of the width.  When the blade is swept, the torque rod limits the amount of rotation of the blade relative to the control arm so that creates the angle of attack.  If the boat is moving slow but the crank is moving fast then the blade ends up almost vertical through the middle of the stroke.

The most efficient arrangement was this drive geometry with a blade 1.2m wide and 130mm chord.  The high aspect blade just reduces the induced drag so the blade efficiency is higher.  The blades had foam inside so they were close to neutral buoyancy and the crank was balanced as best I could achieve.  I also had an adjustable spring to balance the weight of the swing arm and tie bar.  The cyclic pedal motion was a little jerky but better than a Hobie drive.  As you can see this was basic engineering with nothing more complex than welding.

The pictured blade gave good acceleration and the wide blade gave tremendous acceleration.  I could get the boat to speed in one rev of the crank.   

It is likely that you could produce reasonably efficient thrust from a turning rudder blade that has a torque controlled flap on its trailing edge.  The torque could be controlled by rubber blocks.  That would be simpler than the system I have for use on an existing blade such as a rudder.  For example, I know a rubber flap in a yoke that pivots at the front being swept up and down generates reasonable thrust.  Hobbies do not have a particularly sophisticated control on the AoA; essentially just rubber flexing.  My goal was to get as efficient as I could.  Ultimately it was the whole boat dynamics that limited my efficiency.  High aspect blades with significant swept area can get up near 90% efficiency.

High aspect foils provide high efficiency.  The aqua skipper gives you an idea of what an efficient foil looks like:

If you do a few half squats as fast as you can with feet lifting off the ground you get a good idea of how much power it takes to drive these things.  This size blade can produce required lift at around 12-14kph to keep an average person foilborne.  It equates to around 250W.    That is well above what is sustainable by most adult males.  If you stop pumping you sink and it cannot be started from deep water.  Most people use them about three times before they are over them; meaning they get fed up with swimming back to shore dragging the thing when mostly submerged. 

DCP04247.JPG

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20 minutes ago, RickW said:

In my view a robust design criteria for sailing boat rudders is to consider the peak force at design maximum speed and allow a 3X safety factor.  Once you design to that you realise it is a serious structure on any size boat.  Hence setting up rudders on a proa is challenging enough without trying to make them also produce thrust.  

With that word of warning I will give you an idea of what I got to work best.  It is best explained with reference to the attached photo.  The blade shown was not the best I made but the AoA control was the same as shown here.  

In principle the aim is to have the unloaded bladed always stay in line with flow.  If the crank stops the blade will self-align and the boat just coasts.  So there is a parallelogram linkage arm that keeps the blade essentially flat at all angles of sweep if there is no load on the blade.  The crank rod joined the main swing arm midpoint and provided a stroke of 1ft on the middle so the blade swept through 2ft.  This blade is 800 wide and was sweeping through 600 so quite a large area.  It was operated around 60rpm for 8kph.  Much above that caused my lightweight boat to bounce.

There is a torque rod that acts as the blade pivot running through the back end of the vertical control arm.  The control arm is pivoted off the very back of the swing arm.  The torque rod is connected to the blade at the extremity of the width.  When the blade is swept, the torque rod limits the amount of rotation of the blade relative to the control arm so that creates the angle of attack.  If the boat is moving slow but the crank is moving fast then the blade ends up almost vertical through the middle of the stroke.

The most efficient arrangement was this drive geometry with a blade 1.2m wide and 130mm chord.  The high aspect blade just reduces the induced drag so the blade efficiency is higher.  The blades had foam inside so they were close to neutral buoyancy and the crank was balanced as best I could achieve.  I also had an adjustable spring to balance the weight of the swing arm and tie bar.  The cyclic pedal motion was a little jerky but better than a Hobie drive.  As you can see this was basic engineering with nothing more complex than welding.

The pictured blade gave good acceleration and the wide blade gave tremendous acceleration.  I could get the boat to speed in one rev of the crank.   

It is likely that you could produce reasonably efficient thrust from a turning rudder blade that has a torque controlled flap on its trailing edge.  The torque could be controlled by rubber blocks.  That would be simpler than the system I have for use on an existing blade such as a rudder.  For example, I know a rubber flap in a yoke that pivots at the front being swept up and down generates reasonable thrust.  Hobbies do not have a particularly sophisticated control on the AoA; essentially just rubber flexing.  My goal was to get as efficient as I could.  Ultimately it was the whole boat dynamics that limited my efficiency.  High aspect blades with significant swept area can get up near 90% efficiency.

High aspect foils provide high efficiency.  The aqua skipper gives you an idea of what an efficient foil looks like:

If you do a few half squats as fast as you can with feet lifting off the ground you get a good idea of how much power it takes to drive these things.  This size blade can produce required lift at around 12-14kph to keep an average person foilborne.  It equates to around 250W.    That is well above what is sustainable by most adult males.  If you stop pumping you sink and it cannot be started from deep water.  Most people use them about three times before they are over them; meaning they get fed up with swimming back to shore dragging the thing when mostly submerged. 

DCP04247.JPG

:ph34r:

so who’s doing Ketchikan on that?

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You have probably all seen this:

Battery with supplemental pedal to charge the battery. Wonder how many people will get fed up with swimming his thing back when the battery dies.

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4 hours ago, dsackman said:

You have probably all seen this:

Battery with supplemental pedal to charge the battery. Wonder how many people will get fed up with swimming his thing back when the battery dies.

About as many who have had to lug their dead 50 lb  battery powered pull cart back to the pro shop?

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Thanks Rick.  I admit I had to read your description 3 times before I got it.  Hiding the torque arm inside the leading edge and using it as the pivot while delivering the torque at the extremity of the foil width is the type of elegant simplicity I really appreciate.   I'm glad to hear that a 600 mm total sweep provides good efficiency.  There's some amount of dead zone at the end of each sweep where the foil is rotating and it obviously provides no thrust so is totally parasitic drag.  I was thinking that minimizing the dead zone by increasing sweep distance was a good idea, but designing for a good cycling cadence is probably more important.  Alternating leg strokes rather than concurrent rowing leg strokes seems like the better approach for comfort, while the faster optimal cadence (60-80 vs 24-30 spm) reduces the stroke length and size of mechanics, a beneficial design spiral.

Your foil is higher aspect ratio than I was thinking.  I guess normal sailing foils need to be effective at lower speeds and higher angles of attack so use lower aspect ratios to prevent stalling.  Being able to kick a few times coming out of a tack to get some speed and flow over the foils is another advantage of power sailing I hadn't considered (allows higher aspect ratios and smaller foils) especially if I vector the thrust with a combined steering function.

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8 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

... There's some amount of dead zone at the end of each sweep where the foil is rotating and it obviously provides no thrust so is totally parasitic drag.  I was thinking that minimizing the dead zone by increasing sweep distance was a good idea, but designing for a good cycling cadence is probably more important.  Alternating leg strokes rather than concurrent rowing leg strokes seems like the better approach for comfort, while the faster optimal cadence (60-80 vs 24-30 spm) reduces the stroke length and size of mechanics, a beneficial design spiral.

Your foil is higher aspect ratio than I was thinking.  I guess normal sailing foils need to be effective at lower speeds and higher angles of attack so use lower aspect ratios to prevent stalling.  Being able to kick a few times coming out of a tack to get some speed and flow over the foils is another advantage of power sailing I hadn't considered (allows higher aspect ratios and smaller foils) especially if I vector the thrust with a combined steering function.

The short chord of the my best blade increased the effective working arc.  That was another reason the high aspect blade was more efficient.

Generally material strength limits the aspect of a foil.  That is why carbon is so popular for foils. Draft is sometimes a limiting factor but on high performance boats there are usually ways to lift the foils to reduce draft.  

Also on high performance boats cavitation can be an issue.  That becomes a limiting factor for the foil thickness and allowable range for AoA.

 

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Seems there is a boat size in between say ~18’ & 27’ (?) where a dedicated spinning hpv prop setup just gets in the way?  (Like tripping over it when sailing)) ESP in tri’s?

opinions?

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Bikes are amazing tangle machines on a sailboat.  One more reason I'm hoping flapping foils work out. I'm going to be operating in weeds and rocky coastal streams and broken enough props in my life.

I'm debating between a pair of pivoting  sweeps or a sliding carriage, which would support the rotational moment better.  But I'm a noise nazi and the carriages on rowing shells are way too noisy.  So the sweep rowlock needs to support the torque on the sweep due to the vertical center of effort for the foil being about a meter below the sweep / rowlock.  That's the cool thing about a yuloh, is it eliminates that torque with the bent shaft and lanyard, I guess.  But I want good sailing foils so they'll be vertical, high aspect ratio, and the rowlocks will need to support ~100 lbs * 2 ft 

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2 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Bikes are amazing tangle machines on a sailboat.  One more reason I'm hoping flapping foils work out. I'm going to be operating in weeds and rocky coastal streams and broken enough props in my life.

 

I have doubts that you can make a flapping system more reliable than a prop.  

The only parts my drive has in common with a bike is the crank arms and pedals.  The T10 belts are made for high efficiency industrial drives.  The gearboxes I use are purpose made for sprint loads (I am unable to supply these separately right now but there are Mitrpak boxes available that are OK).  The shafts are very high strength stainless steel. A 2.4m length can almost be forced into a circle within its elastic range.  The prop blades fold.  I have run over 100mm deep gravel beds at 12kph without damaging a prop.  The prop blade hits, that forces blades to fold and forces the strut outward and upward.  The prop drag causes the boat to yaw sideways and the prop gets dragged over the shallows.  With a log it just bounces over. 

The folding prop was developed for the Murray Marathon. That is a 404km river race.  The river is full of shallows, weeds, leaf litter and logs.  In a typical race the prop will hit hard maybe 4 times.  There has never been damage to the folding prop.  It is all mounted compliantly so just bounces over things.  This clip shows how the prop can be inspected by curving the shaft upward:

 

A typical outboard with survive a ground and I have even seen minimal damage from hitting a floating log at high speed.  So I believe a compliant system that gives when struck works quire well.  There are many rudder systems designed to give under a collision or grounding.  

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On March 3, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Kenny Dumas said:

Bikes are amazing tangle machines on a sailboat.  One more reason I'm hoping flapping foils work out. I'm going to be operating in weeds and rocky coastal streams and broken enough props in my life.

I'm debating between a pair of pivoting  sweeps or a sliding carriage, which would support the rotational moment better.  But I'm a noise nazi and the carriages on rowing shells are way too noisy.  So the sweep rowlock needs to support the torque on the sweep due to the vertical center of effort for the foil being about a meter below the sweep / rowlock.  That's the cool thing about a yuloh, is it eliminates that torque with the bent shaft and lanyard, I guess.  But I want good sailing foils so they'll be vertical, high aspect ratio, and the rowlocks will need to support ~100 lbs * 2 ft 

There must be a bright line somewhere, especially since the race is starting later in the summer, which means lighter airs, generally.  We've spent more than a few hours looking at, for example, the Seascape 18, sailing in 1-2 knots of wind.  And sitting in the usual middle July calm.  I distinctly remember trying to motor around the South end of Gabriola in the middle of July, to get over to Coal Harbour, and the tide was not as predicted, and the rounding took fucking forever.  No wind of course.  Without an engine? Yaaaaay?  Dodd Narrows starts to look better and better....

A really big drifter starts looking better....   

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43 minutes ago, Amati said:

There must be a bright line somewhere, especially since the race is starting later in the summer, which means lighter airs, generally.  We've spent more than a few hours looking at, for example, the Seascape 18, sailing in 1-2 knots of wind.  And sitting in the usual middle July calm.  I distinctly remember trying to motor around the South end of Gabriola in the middle of July, to get over to Coal Harbour, and the tide was not as predicted, and the rounding took fucking forever.  No wind of course.  Without an engine? Yaaaaay?  Dodd Narrows starts to look better and better....

A really big drifter starts looking better....   

Trained porpoises is/are the future. Try some Purina Dolphin Chow scattered in front of the boat.

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54 minutes ago, Amati said:

There must be a bright line somewhere, especially since the race is starting later in the summer, which means lighter airs, generally.  We've spent more than a few hours looking at, for example, the Seascape 18, sailing in 1-2 knots of wind.  And sitting in the usual middle July calm.  I distinctly remember trying to motor around the South end of Gabriola in the middle of July, to get over to Coal Harbour, and the tide was not as predicted, and the rounding took fucking forever.  No wind of course.  Without an engine? Yaaaaay?  Dodd Narrows starts to look better and better....

A really big drifter starts looking better....   

Dodd Narrows and to the left of Salt Spring and Thetis islands will shorten the route.

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On 3/1/2018 at 7:27 AM, galacticair said:

+1 on the compelling nature of seeing all the different boats match up. There were a lot of interesting pairs of boats racing tightly last year with very different design choices.  Us on the Inter 20 vs. Wilds Ones on the O'Day 27, you on the G32 vs. Roger Mann on his custom tri...  North 2 Alaska on one of the most surprising boats of all vs. Global Diving, etc.

Regarding weight, I partly agree that a boat has to be able to carry more weight than normal design/racing conditions.  But on the other hand think about Karl on his paddleboard -- he didn't have all that much weight capacity.   You make do with what you have and plan accordingly...

On the Inter 20 we had a lot of extra weight, but we also knew it was a boat with enough volume that could sail with 3 people's weight and still do fine.  We were on the light-end of Inter 20 crew racing weights (more at F-18 crew weights).  Our wings ate all of that margin up and then some (60lbs), and then we had a pedal drive (20lbs?), safety/electronics gear, food and water.  It all added up to basically a 3rd person, and the boat definitely felt sluggish vs. our sailing in San Francisco, particularly upwind.  That didn't stop us from hitting 19.2 knots on the GPS under spinnaker...   We definitely left off the packing list some things we might have otherwise brought -- no sleeping bags, fewer spare clothes, fewer spare parts. 

I think it was the same story for the M32.  They kept the weight well down, but I'm sure the boat was still heavy vs. normal, and they sailed more conservatively anyways than they would have on a day sail.  But they didn't need to be at 90% or 100% to do an awesome race.

No we sailed at under spec weight for racing as we only had the three of us onboard. The class rules for the M32 have and upper limit of 437.5 KG for crew weight and re engineering the boat to handle more than the original design load is just going backwards(The boat weighs appox 500kg all up in normal racing mode).

The single heaviest "thing" we had onboard was our water supply. The freeze dried food wasn't too much weight and the rest was spare parts, tools and electronics(spare batteries). There are items we probably didn't need to bring in hindsight like 100+ spare AAs, all the spare flashlights, quart of Splash zone, a lot of handtools, etc...  Maybe we didn't need the bucket for sh#tting in and the 2"x2" holes in the net would have sufficed(and make good hand holds). Not to mention trying to balance on a bucket on a net on the leeward side of the deck-sweeper(for privacy) with the occasional grundle splash made forcing out bowel movements into and action sport. 

You never know what will happen out there. If that floating 4x8 sheet of plywood we hit had gone through the inner skin it would have been one of us over the side with the underwater glue. There is no formula for knowing what you will need and what you can leave behind. Our approach was just having a few good sailors talking and planning this for a long time, practicing, reviewing and re-assessing what was right and wrong right up until the start of the race. Experience is useful but you usually only get that right after you need it. 

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9 hours ago, dsackman said:

Dodd Narrows and to the left of Salt Spring and Thetis islands will shorten the route.

Just an example (Gabriola) that more than a few have tried.  I can’t recall ever sailing up through your suggested ^^^ route in July without a lot of motoring.  HPV in R2AK speak, I guess.  Starting the race later would seem to be weighting things more towards human power.  Local wind knowledge in the Gulf Islands would be huge-

Going through Nanaimo would be fun too!  Paddle paddle.  Peddle peddle.

 

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9 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Trained porpoises is/are the future. Try some Purina Dolphin Chow scattered in front of the boat.

They’re so small and cute.  I’d feel guilty.  

It’d be like using West Highland White Terriers as sled dogs.  Even with food.....:lol:

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4 hours ago, Amati said:

Just an example (Gabriola) that more than a few have tried.  I can’t recall ever sailing up through your suggested ^^^ route in July without a lot of motoring.  HPV in R2AK speak, I guess.  Starting the race later would seem to be weighting things more towards human power.  Local wind knowledge in the Gulf Islands would be huge-

Going through Nanaimo would be fun too!  Paddle paddle.  Peddle peddle.

 

We went through Porlier pass in 2016 on the F31R and got passed by a bunch of the fleet who had wind all night while we had none at all.  We chose Porlier as Active pass tide was turning as we approached, and we weren't confident rowing through it (Nice Pair seems to have powered through, but they had a very strong 4-person rowing system).   So yes, shorter, but not faster under sail...  The Van Isle 360 results I've seen seem to corroborate this, with Active Pass or round Saturna generally winning out (I'm not a local though so I've only glanced at a few threads on the subject).

In 2015 however, Porlier seems to have been a winner for Elsie Piddock (unless they went all the way to Gabriola Pass? not sure I remember correctly).  It was a way windier year, so the inshore protection in that case may have been worth it.

 

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6 hours ago, IanA. said:

No we sailed at under spec weight for racing as we only had the three of us onboard. ...

The single heaviest "thing" we had onboard was our water supply. The freeze dried food wasn't too much weight and the rest was spare parts, tools and electronics(spare batteries). There are items we probably didn't need to bring in hindsight like 100+ spare AAs, all the spare flashlights, quart of Splash zone, a lot of handtools, etc...  Maybe we didn't need the bucket for sh#tting in and the 2"x2" holes in the net would have sufficed(and make good hand holds). Not to mention trying to balance on a bucket on a net on the leeward side of the deck-sweeper(for privacy) with the occasional grundle splash made forcing out bowel movements into and action sport. 

You never know what will happen out there. ... Experience is useful but you usually only get that right after you need it. 

Great info -- thanks for all that!  I had forgotten the M32 normal crew is 4 people.

Your description of gear is similar to ours.  We also had a bunch of smaller tools, and even a quart of Splash Zone as well (they don't make them smaller as your boat gets tiny!).  And way too many spare AAs/AAAs (Energizer lithium) -- but those didn't weigh all that much ultimately.  We barely used our headlamps, and kept our VHFs off most of the trip to keep them ready to use in an emergency.  So the only batteries we were regularly swapping out where for the Garmin GPSMap 78 handheld plotter (2 AAs every 18-24h), our Novasail GPS display (sweet piece of kit, only 1 AA every 30-36hrs), and our portable Nav lights (once every 3 days or so).

Lose the bucket, definitely :) . As for privacy -- ha!

Agree with your point on experience. Prep is worth a lot, but still need quick thinking on your feet out there!

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21 minutes ago, galacticair said:

We went through Porlier pass in 2016 on the F31R and got passed by a bunch of the fleet who had wind all night while we had none at all.  We chose Porlier as Active pass tide was turning as we approached, and we weren't confident rowing through it (Nice Pair seems to have powered through, but they had a very strong 4-person rowing system).   So yes, shorter, but not faster under sail...  The Van Isle 360 results I've seen seem to corroborate this, with Active Pass or round Saturna generally winning out (I'm not a local though so I've only glanced at a few threads on the subject).

In 2015 however, Porlier seems to have been a winner for Elsie Piddock (unless they went all the way to Gabriola Pass? not sure I remember correctly).  It was a way windier year, so the inshore protection in that case may have been worth it.

 

Thanks- I routinely forget to look at Van Isle tracking.  We’ve been sailing up there nearly every summer for a couple of decades, but my crew’s tolerance for ghosting has been nil, so with more motoring, the less attention to wind patterns....

Anybody know some good references for wind patterns on the east side of the island?  Any weather routers?  (That would seem a black art indeed.....:ph34r:)

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On 3/3/2018 at 6:54 PM, RickW said:

I have doubts that you can make a flapping system more reliable than a prop.  

The only parts my drive has in common with a bike is the crank arms and pedals.  The T10 belts are made for high efficiency industrial drives.  The gearboxes I use are purpose made for sprint loads (I am unable to supply these separately right now but there are Mitrpak boxes available that are OK).  The shafts are very high strength stainless steel. A 2.4m length can almost be forced into a circle within its elastic range.  The prop blades fold.  I have run over 100mm deep gravel beds at 12kph without damaging a prop.  The prop blade hits, that forces blades to fold and forces the strut outward and upward.  The prop drag causes the boat to yaw sideways and the prop gets dragged over the shallows.  With a log it just bounces over. 

The folding prop was developed for the Murray Marathon. That is a 404km river race.  The river is full of shallows, weeds, leaf litter and logs.  In a typical race the prop will hit hard maybe 4 times.  There has never been damage to the folding prop.  It is all mounted compliantly so just bounces over things.  This clip shows how the prop can be inspected by curving the shaft upward:

 

A typical outboard with survive a ground and I have even seen minimal damage from hitting a floating log at high speed.  So I believe a compliant system that gives when struck works quire well.  There are many rudder systems designed to give under a collision or grounding.  

It looks like the on/off for air entrainment on the shaft leading down to ventilation on the prop is about 4 knots?  From the aft foil holding it in place.

On a bigger multihull would it be possible to have a shaft hanging down out the back, while sitting 90 degrees (sideways) to it for pedaling?

Dont know how much energy would get soaked up making the angle change from horizontal for pedaling to the angle to get the shaft in the water.  Or what minimal (maximum?) angle the shaft/prop would be viz the water.  The cantilever would be tricky?  

Could the whole shaft be one piece with a couple of bearings to hold it in place?

I’ve been staring at too many Thai canal boats, methinks.......

But I could hold on to the tiller while pedaling, and maybe the shaft would be possible to put out of the way. 

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3 hours ago, Amati said:

It looks like the on/off for air entrainment on the shaft leading down to ventilation on the prop is about 4 knots?  From the aft foil holding it in place.

On a bigger multihull would it be possible to have a shaft hanging down out the back, while sitting 90 degrees (sideways) to it for pedaling?

Dont know how much energy would get soaked up making the angle change from horizontal for pedaling to the angle to get the shaft in the water.  Or what minimal (maximum?) angle the shaft/prop would be viz the water.  The cantilever would be tricky?  

Could the whole shaft be one piece with a couple of bearings to hold it in place?

I’ve been staring at too many Thai canal boats, methinks.......

But I could hold on to the tiller while pedaling, and maybe the shaft would be possible to put out of the way. 

The prop strut is faired below the waterline.  After I took this video I faired the strut above the waterline.  It now maintains attached flow.  In its original form it did not ventilate until 17kph; about 9kts and that was due to the flow separation trench reaching the blade tip.

The curved shaft becomes less attractive as the boat gets bigger.  It is possible to just stick a shaft out the back set at the right angle to stay submerged as the prop self-aligns to flow so is self-supporting; not cantilevered unless at rest.

The idea of the curved shaft is to get the prop operating in a plane perpendicular to water flow.  It is possible to operate without a strut but that puts compressive load into the shaft, which increases the cyclic stress because it takes up an elliptical arc rather than a circular arc.  The forces on the prop to align are relatively high.  If it is forced out of alignment like on a rigid inclined shaft, the blade loading is unbalanced and vibration gets bad at speed.   The shaft works in its elastic range so there are no losses in maintaining the curve.  

This video shows a strutless prop.  You need to look closely to see the blades flashing as they turn:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNgnLsvkqvBKgUiFVk

Prop is most visible in the port turn where it hangs out about 400mm from the side of the hull.

After considering various options for curved shafts, I and others have convinced Russell Brown that a two belt drive with a lifting leg is the best option for him.  That makes sense for heavy pedal boats.  He will retain the sideways facing.

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On 07/01/2018 at 10:13 AM, ProaSailor said:

if

On 06/01/2018 at 6:37 PM, sleddog said:

Health issue has put WILDFLOWER out of '18 R2AK. Have pedal drive someone might be interested in: New in 2017,  50 pedal rpm gets my 22' cruising cat  to 2.5 -3 knots tops with ~ 270 prop rpm.  All carbon, custom csc aluminum 73 tooth chain ring, new lower bearing and O-ring seal, 16x14 prop.  You'd need about 14" bridge deck clearance for proper prop immersion. Seating is athwartships.  Photo taken before hydro fairing added.  Come spin in Santa Cruz if you're around..... skipallanatsbcglobaldotnet

 

pedalpower1.jpg

 

Is the pedal drive still available?

Cheers Andrew 

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On 07/01/2018 at 10:13 AM, ProaSailor said:

if

On 06/01/2018 at 6:37 PM, sleddog said:

Health issue has put WILDFLOWER out of '18 R2AK. Have pedal drive someone might be interested in: New in 2017,  50 pedal rpm gets my 22' cruising cat  to 2.5 -3 knots tops with ~ 270 prop rpm.  All carbon, custom csc aluminum 73 tooth chain ring, new lower bearing and O-ring seal, 16x14 prop.  You'd need about 14" bridge deck clearance for proper prop immersion. Seating is athwartships.  Photo taken before hydro fairing added.  Come spin in Santa Cruz if you're around..... skipallanatsbcglobaldotnet

 

pedalpower1.jpg

 

Is the pedal drive still available?

Cheers Andrew 

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11 hours ago, AuandrewC32 said:

Is the pedal drive still available?

Cheers Andrew 

Yes, Russell's original pedal drive is still available.  See post 56, Jan.6, 2018.

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12 hours ago, dsackman said:

I think "designed for weeks on the water" says it all. Add human support systems and you're up to years on the water.

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Humans walked on a Canadian beach 13,000 years ago
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/13000-year-old-human-footprints-discovered-in-british-columbia/

Quote

A team of archaeologists led by Duncan McLaren of the Hakai Institute and the University of Victoria unearthed 29 footprints on the shore of Calvert Island, British Columbia, embedded in a layer of light-brown clay 60cm below today’s sandy beach. Radiocarbon dating of a small piece of wood embedded in the clay puts the footprints at 13,317 to 12,633 years old, making them some of the earliest clear evidence of human presence this far north on Canada’s Pacific Coast.

 

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And they're still saying in the media they came by foot.

A strong argument has been made they came by boat.

The original R2AK'ers perhaps....

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5 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Super cool proa Rasputin. it looks good and I'll bet it sails well too. It would be interesting to see how wet it is.

Not sure about that other one with the guy with the funky hair and the funky colored jib...

 

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24 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Super cool proa Rasputin. it looks good and I'll bet it sails well too. It would be interesting to see how wet it is........

Cool..... But you would have to duck and keep pretty low during shunts?

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And while we are waiting for images of of Russell’s new pedal drive system, inspired by the Proa above, I give you my fantasy Proa suggestion for R2AK, lifted from another place:

”Still needs lots of work, but below is my diagramatic sketch concept for Sidecar "the racer" for 2016 R2AK:

LOA: 12.00m
LWL: 9.00m (12m with ama lifted)
B: 6.00m
D: 0.30m
Displ Loaded: 1133kg
Displ/L: 18.07
Sa/Displ: 68.72
SA max : 73m2
Base Speed: 15.41 knots 
HP: 1x Pedal cycle unit station with counter rotating propellors, 2x scull oar/paddle stations

Design aims for min WSA at HP speeds, max LWL at upwind speeds. Max width front dynamic lift area at high speeds.
Flat bottoms and spray steps to both hulls, straight rocker in the vaka ends for max dynamic lift.
3 man 3 hour watch system: one on, one standby/ back up/ resting, one sleeping. Possibility of up to 6 hours rest in a 9 hour rotation.
Windward end hinged minimalist cuddy cabin for accommodation. Down when moving or foul tide resting (on watch crew sleeps on cabin floor in sailing gear), halliard raised with integral side vents and awnings for extra space when camping/ holed out avoiding extreme weather.
3 rudder lifting foil system, 2 on vaka steer as well. All pivot 180 degrees and are fully retractable. Ama rudder can also provide additional RM in lieu of water ballast when no lift off.......
Inflatable tube safety ama in built in canister. Buoyant park avenue boom to assist with knockdown re-righting and reefing.
Fits inside a 20ft container, with vaka and mast halved.”

A promise Russell, if I ever win the lottery, I will do R2AK with something like it......

Attachments
 

19D1D12A-6B95-47F0-B575-C13347C57A1D.jpeg

F708035C-C81F-4354-BA78-08EF0EF2A9B9.jpeg

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9 hours ago, Sidecar said:

And while we are waiting for images of of Russell’s new pedal drive system, inspired by the Proa above, I give you my fantasy Proa suggestion for R2AK, lifted from another place:

”Still needs lots of work, but below is my diagramatic sketch concept for Sidecar "the racer" for 2016 R2AK:

LOA: 12.00m
LWL: 9.00m (12m with ama lifted)
B: 6.00m
D: 0.30m
Displ Loaded: 1133kg
Displ/L: 18.07
Sa/Displ: 68.72
SA max : 73m2
Base Speed: 15.41 knots 
HP: 1x Pedal cycle unit station with counter rotating propellors, 2x scull oar/paddle stations

Design aims for min WSA at HP speeds, max LWL at upwind speeds. Max width front dynamic lift area at high speeds.
Flat bottoms and spray steps to both hulls, straight rocker in the vaka ends for max dynamic lift.
3 man 3 hour watch system: one on, one standby/ back up/ resting, one sleeping. Possibility of up to 6 hours rest in a 9 hour rotation.
Windward end hinged minimalist cuddy cabin for accommodation. Down when moving or foul tide resting (on watch crew sleeps on cabin floor in sailing gear), halliard raised with integral side vents and awnings for extra space when camping/ holed out avoiding extreme weather.
3 rudder lifting foil system, 2 on vaka steer as well. All pivot 180 degrees and are fully retractable. Ama rudder can also provide additional RM in lieu of water ballast when no lift off.......
Inflatable tube safety ama in built in canister. Buoyant park avenue boom to assist with knockdown re-righting and reefing.
Fits inside a 20ft container, with vaka and mast halved.”

A promise Russell, if I ever win the lottery, I will do R2AK with something like it......

Attachments
 

19D1D12A-6B95-47F0-B575-C13347C57A1D.jpeg

F708035C-C81F-4354-BA78-08EF0EF2A9B9.jpeg

Holy cow! There's a lot going on in those two drawings. How do I make them bigger? There's a lot going on in your boats that I'd like to get my head around. 

My pedal drive is coming along. I'd post photos of the parts, but they aren't very self-explanatory until they are assembled, which won't be too long now.

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11 hours ago, Sidecar said:

And while we are waiting for images of of Russell’s new pedal drive system, inspired by the Proa above, I give you my fantasy Proa suggestion for R2AK, lifted from another place:

”Still needs lots of work, but below is my diagramatic sketch concept for Sidecar "the racer" for 2016 R2AK:

LOA: 12.00m
LWL: 9.00m (12m with ama lifted)
B: 6.00m
D: 0.30m
Displ Loaded: 1133kg
Displ/L: 18.07
Sa/Displ: 68.72
SA max : 73m2
Base Speed: 15.41 knots 
HP: 1x Pedal cycle unit station with counter rotating propellors, 2x scull oar/paddle stations

Design aims for min WSA at HP speeds, max LWL at upwind speeds. Max width front dynamic lift area at high speeds.
Flat bottoms and spray steps to both hulls, straight rocker in the vaka ends for max dynamic lift.
3 man 3 hour watch system: one on, one standby/ back up/ resting, one sleeping. Possibility of up to 6 hours rest in a 9 hour rotation.
Windward end hinged minimalist cuddy cabin for accommodation. Down when moving or foul tide resting (on watch crew sleeps on cabin floor in sailing gear), halliard raised with integral side vents and awnings for extra space when camping/ holed out avoiding extreme weather.
3 rudder lifting foil system, 2 on vaka steer as well. All pivot 180 degrees and are fully retractable. Ama rudder can also provide additional RM in lieu of water ballast when no lift off.......
Inflatable tube safety ama in built in canister. Buoyant park avenue boom to assist with knockdown re-righting and reefing.
Fits inside a 20ft container, with vaka and mast halved.”

A promise Russell, if I ever win the lottery, I will do R2AK with something like it......

Attachments
 

19D1D12A-6B95-47F0-B575-C13347C57A1D.jpeg

F708035C-C81F-4354-BA78-08EF0EF2A9B9.jpeg

The jibs balance the main so the CE stays put relative to the CLR on either shunt?  

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BTW, I emailed Torqeedo about the possibility of pedal power for their outboards-  got a nice email back saying they were forwarding it to R&D, since they know of a lot of customers that use the Torqeedo but have an auxiliary (separate) pedal drive.

Perhaps a few R2AK specific emails to the Torqeedo US offices on the subject might get them intrigued?  I’ll see if I can find the email address...

Edit- since the 40 watt roll up solar panel can push things along at a knot or 2, maybe even with efficiency losses, pedal power might do something.....

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4 hours ago, Amati said:

..... CE stays put relative to the CLR on either shunt?  

Correct, and saves duplication or tranferring of headsails from one end to the other. They tack, like conventional clubfooted  headsails so faster shunts. Also much less shadowing downwind. So can run DDW if needed (eg narrow channels) and minimise gybe shunts.

But you do need to shunt CLR because the CE is aft and further to leeward than a conventional rig.

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4 hours ago, BarfBag said:

I received the message back,

"No I don't believe you can."

Seriously?

Reading between the lines? (Which I may have been doing on the positive side-:))

(Wish fulfillment......)

 

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42 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Correct, and saves duplication or tranferring of headsails from one end to the other. They tack, like conventional clubfooted  headsails so faster shunts. Also much less shadowing downwind. So can run DDW if needed (eg narrow channels) and minimise gybe shunts.

But you do need to shunt CLR because the CE is aft and further to leeward than a conventional rig.

Kind of like what a Longboard Windsurfing rig inclined to windward does? W/O a centerboard....

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Based on my experiences with Sidecar, the position of CE relative to CLR laterally is as important as longitudinally on proas and needs to be taken into account.Think of pushing a trailer only on the leeward wheels...... it wants to turn to windward, with the ama being a brake on the windward wheel....... The bigger the CLR/CE separation laterally the more you have to compensate longitudinally. (Ie CLR lead).

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6 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Based on my experiences with Sidecar, the position of CE relative to CLR laterally is as important as longitudinally on proas and needs to be taken into account.Think of pushing a trailer only on the leeward wheels...... it wants to turn to windward, with the ama being a brake on the windward wheel....... The bigger the CLR/CE separation  the more you have to compensate longitudinally. (Ie CLR lead).

You guys do this on purpose for fun, right? Is there a higher correlation of self-flaggelation in your demographic?

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All Multihulls suffer to a greater or lesser degree from this, especially dynamically. What works with 2 hulls in the water doesn’t necessarily work so well with one hull in the water and vice versa. Also speed makes a big difference. What works at high speed doesn’t necessarily work at slow speeds. But you have to start slow and build speed and adjust.

Life is self flagellation in one form or another.....you pays your money and takes your choice....

 

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8 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Based on my experiences with Sidecar, the position of CE relative to CLR laterally is as important as longitudinally on proas and needs to be taken into account.Think of pushing a trailer only on the leeward wheels...... it wants to turn to windward, with the ama being a brake on the windward wheel....... The bigger the CLR/CE separation laterally the more you have to compensate longitudinally. (Ie CLR lead).

When I have done VPPs for Rob Denney's HarryProa the boats sail well with the trailing rudder working and the leading rudder lifted.  With this configuration the lateral offset of drive and drag, causing weather helm, and the longitudinal offset of CLR and CoE, causing lee helm, are essentially balanced for a wide range of operation.  Slight weather helm at low speed and lee helm when the ww hull unloads.  The challenge is to make these large blades and their mountings strong enough to carry the high loads while having ability to turn 360 degrees.  Attached photo gives some idea of what has proven to be OK.  These have a drum shaft across the hull that allows them to kick up.

 

The other feature of the large rudder set up is that countering weather helm in low to moderate conditions, before the ww hull unloads, reduces leeway.  

2015-08-21 14.49.14.jpg

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I would rather give up proas than have a pair of rudders like that.....

Rudder separation is important, the further apart the better. Sidecar’s, and I believe Bucket List’s are too close together. Your “ideal” rudder set up above would tend to confirm this as well... 

I found Sidecar works best with the aft rudder locked (lifting) and steering with the front one, so not everything is as obvious as it may theoretically seem.

I will be in Melbourne in June, Rick, will catch up with you then..... I will let you know as soon as the dates are confirmed.

.

 

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On 4/6/2018 at 2:58 PM, Sidecar said:

I would rather give up proas than have a pair of rudders like that.....

Rudder separation is important, the further apart the better. Sidecar’s, and I believe Bucket List’s are too close together. Your “ideal” rudder set up above would tend to confirm this as well... 

I found Sidecar works best with the aft rudder locked (lifting) and steering with the front one, so not everything is as obvious as it may theoretically seem.

The rudders on Blind Date in Rick's photo were designed and built by her ex paid skipper, with little or no input from harryproa.  They are, by design, much stronger and heavier than they need to be.   A big part of their bulk comes from the need to kick up in either direction in the event of a grounding, which is common where they sail in Holland and would appear to be a no brainer in the R2AK.
 
Two large rudders at about 25% and 75% of the length and no daggerboards works well on all the harrys that have them, for less drag,  complexity and cost than smaller rudders and daggerboards    Attaching them is difficult, but everyone we do is lighter and more streamlined than the previous one. Daggerboard in the windward hull and small rudders set in from the ends of the boat would appear to be the worst of both world's.  I look forward to hearing how they work.. 
 
What were the conditions when Sidecar sailed best with the front rudder?  We have been doing (and talking about) this on harrys for at least 10 years.  It is the obvious way to steer upwind.  Hardly novel or not "obvious" .
 
Bucket List steered/steers perfectly well in the limited sailing we did before fitting the foils. Please stop commenting about it as if you had sailed, seen or knew anything about it, when you haven't, haven't and don't.
 
   

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I think it was watching a video of blind date (maybe with her original rudders) that made me see just how bad the Harry proa steering system actually is. The boat was sailing upwind, the aft rudder was cranked over hard to counteract the obvious weather helm, and the forward rudder was also cranked over hard to counteract weather helm, but pushing the bow and the rest of the boat to leeward. To be proud of this steering system is something I just don't understand, especially considering that one of those monstrous contraptions is hanging out on the bow of the boat. I'd really like to see video of one of those boats sailing in something besides lake conditions. If you think I'm being harsh, look at whet you wrote above. You act like you are king of the hill, so no one should ever question you. Did you actually ever sail Bucket list? Have you actually ever been out in the real ocean in one of the boats that you promote as being so much better than anything that came before?                                                                    Look at the last line in your above rant. There are actually good systems for steering proas and some of us have actually done lots of miles in all conditions with those steering systems. Just because you say it's all wrong (for decades) doesn't make it so.

This is a thread about the R2AK. Sidecar has posted some valuable stuff about pedal drives and concept boats. He didn't post that photo of a rudder on one of your boats. That was posted by the world's expert on pedal drives for boats, who has been extremely helpful to some of us.   What I'm getting at is that if you want to make war with anyone who questions you, take it somewhere else. How about the Bucket list thread on the multihulls page? That seems appropriate to me. Anyone else?

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Actually Trevor, I don't like to argue. Most proa fans like to talk about them a lot. I don't even like doing that. I like even less to see to see false advertising and bullying. Do you like false advertising and bullying? 

I'm not proud of my display of distaste for Rob Denny, but I certainly won't take any of it back. 

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Don’t worry Russell, I think Rob is an idiot as well. I just keep hoping that the most interesting thread on SA will stay somewhat on track... More human powered solutions and discussions please.

And feel free to show us more of your boat building porn as well. :D

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17 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I think it was watching a video of blind date (maybe with her original rudders) that made me see just how bad the Harry proa steering system actually is. The boat was sailing upwind, the aft rudder was cranked over hard to counteract the obvious weather helm, and the forward rudder was also cranked over hard to counteract weather helm, but pushing the bow and the rest of the boat to leeward. To be proud of this steering system is something I just don't understand, especially considering that one of those monstrous contraptions is hanging out on the bow of the boat. I'd really like to see video of one of those boats sailing in something besides lake conditions. If you think I'm being harsh, look at whet you wrote above. You act like you are king of the hill, so no one should ever question you. Did you actually ever sail Bucket list? Have you actually ever been out in the real ocean in one of the boats that you promote as being so much better than anything that came before?                                                                    Look at the last line in your above rant. There are actually good systems for steering proas and some of us have actually done lots of miles in all conditions with those steering systems. Just because you say it's all wrong (for decades) doesn't make it so.

This is a thread about the R2AK. Sidecar has posted some valuable stuff about pedal drives and concept boats. He didn't post that photo of a rudder on one of your boats. That was posted by the world's expert on pedal drives for boats, who has been extremely helpful to some of us.   What I'm getting at is that if you want to make war with anyone who questions you, take it somewhere else. How about the Bucket list thread on the multihulls page? That seems appropriate to me. Anyone else?

I don't think you are being harsh,  just selective.  There are a couple of dozen videos of harrys sailing and steering perfectly well in a variety of conditions.    None of the harryproas i have sailed on have had this problem.   Nor have any that you or Sidecar have sailed on.  ;-)  If it did happen, it would be a pretty easy fix, either by adding more jib/removing mainsail,  recutting the main to provide a more open leech, or short term, bending the mast to do so.  A topping lift is a very powerful control on an unstayed mast if you want to fiddle with the power and balance.  Worst case, simply lift the front rudder until the boat balances.  Blind Date (the first cruising harry launched)  still has positive sail balance with a reef in the main, so there is scope for a bigger jib.  The latest harrys are schooner rigs (to better use the lee hull space), so it is even less of a problem.

A 'good system for steering proas' works in both directions and kicks up when it hits something.  One that doesn't might look better, but is more dangerous, and in a race like R2AK, slower if you do not sail at night because you are worried about hitting logs with fixed rudders and daggerboards.    How many times did the boats with "good systems for steering proas" run aground or into a log at 15+ knots?  What did/would the rudders, daggerboard and cases look like afterwards?   

Rick is not only a pedal (and hydro, VPP, electric motor and several other disciplines) authority, he has spent a lot of time on and made some changes to a home built and designed harryproa.  You can read his thoughts on them at http://harryproa.com/?p=129  and http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/

I did not introduce harryproas to this thread, only clarified what others said about them.  Now you are moaning about thread drift while demanding (for the umpteenth time) I explain about harryproas offshore performance.   For anyone interested, one of the many times I responded to this nonsense is in post 141 on the Multihulls Anarchy Gitana foiling thread.   

As for "making war",   this was post #404 on the M A Caribbean 600 thread, about Russ' incessant trolling: 

"FFS (Russell) ... why don’t you start a fucking thread titled “Old School Sailing Gear-open discussion. Everyone except Rob Denney may participate”. That should help you feel better. Or maybe a thread titled, 'I can’t fucking stand Rob Denney-who’s with me?    Because, lord knows, it would be terrible to have discussions, theories, ideas, etc, thrown out there about multihull capsizes, the why’s, the what’s, and the what if’s, in a thread about a race where a notorious Catamaran flipped. " end quote

People who want to know why Russ trolls me can read chapter 45 of Gary Baigent's  (Groucho Marx on these forums) excellent book http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf    

It takes arrogance to tell people where or what they should post.   It takes a lot more to boast about doing things you are "not proud of".

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Ah geeze, now you guys are going to wreck another good thread?!  Put me down with @Trevor B, @Russell Brown.  Really admire and respect what you have done as a sailor and builder.  Agreed with you about Perry and his minions bullying folks.  Love reading what you are up to re R2AK and the innovation that race spawns.  But come on, deserved or not, you bully Rob the same as Perry bullied Brent. And then your band of idiot minions comes out of the woodwork, piles on and wrecks the thread.  And for gosh sakes there is enough out there that people can decide for themselves about Rob's boats and obviously have.

This is less about telling people where to post and not derail threads - thread drift has always been part of SA - but some folks and arguments rise to the Doug Lord level over and over and everyone knows when "those folk"s or "that argument" shows up the thread gets turned into a shit show that never ends.

No doubt I'll get slammed for it but whatever.  Really enjoy so much of what you do and write.

Flame away but I hope this thread survives and returns to R2AK and related innovation - along with the usual thread drift.  Just absent the holy wars that some people and arguments bring over and over and over.

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I got the message, Wess.

Russ, don't make me find more 'mud wrestling with pigs' memes! Don't you have a R2AK to concern yourself? BTW, my old sailing/surfing buddy from St Croix who now lives in Aruba just Skyped me about us doing a road trip up to Pt Townsend for the start. Looking for a 4WD rental off grid camper bus/van and thinking of taking the ferry up the Inside Passage with it. Need ground crew?

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18 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Russ, don't make me find more 'mud wrestling with pigs' memes! Don't you have a R2AK to concern yourself?

Russell has always been reluctant about tooting his own horn and speaking out in general, even to defend himself against Denney's relentless assault (19 years!) of false statements disparaging Russell's proas.  Please do the world a favor and don't discourage him from defending himself and sharing his expertise and analysis of Denney's bullshit claims.  Both sides are not equally at fault here.  Russell is definitely not the bully!

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Ah geeze, now you guys are going to wreck another good thread?!  Put me down with @Trevor B, @Russell Brown.  Really admire and respect what you have done as a sailor and builder.  Agreed with you about Perry and his minions bullying folks.  Love reading what you are up to re R2AK and the innovation that race spawns.  But come on, deserved or not, you bully Rob the same as Perry bullied Brent. And then your band of idiot minions comes out of the woodwork, piles on and wrecks the thread.  And for gosh sakes there is enough out there that people can decide for themselves about Rob's boats and obviously have.

This is less about telling people where to post and not derail threads - thread drift has always been part of SA - but some folks and arguments rise to the Doug Lord level over and over and everyone knows when "those folk"s or "that argument" shows up the thread gets turned into a shit show that never ends.

No doubt I'll get slammed for it but whatever.  Really enjoy so much of what you do and write.

Flame away but I hope this thread survives and returns to R2AK and related innovation - along with the usual thread drift.  Just absent the holy wars that some people and arguments bring over and over and over.

However you word it, the Perry Wrecking Crew was not attacking an innovative boat designer. 

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   I agree Proa, but his talents are better needed elsewhere. I never said Russ was a bully, just hate to see him get sucked into one of these sessions with Rob.

Now I have to post a pig meme! 

How about Co-Ed pig wrestling?

Image result for pig wrestle mud

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@Rasputin22- I don't want to know what you had to google to find that image LOL.  Which one is Oster, LOL?

@Sail4beer - Russell had a great line in that thread about what value BS could bring.  Wish I could find it.  It was better far better stated than I can frame it.  Yes, there was a lot of BS to BS but there was also some value.  Not for 99.9% of people here but 99.9% of people here also will not buy their own boat and sail across an ocean.  I feel the same way about Rob.  Think there is some value there along with a lot of other stuff.  Its not for me but intelligent people can decide for themselves.

@Russell Brown  -  Thanks.  See you on the cover of Epoxyworks doing the R2AK to get back on topic.  Think I will read that one first!!  Look forward to seeing and reading about your pedal drive.

IMG_2937.JPG

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6 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

I agree Proa, but his talents are better needed elsewhere. I never said Russ was a bully, just hate to see him get sucked into one of these sessions with Rob.

It's so easy to say "Just ignore him" when you're not the one being relentlessly hounded by a malicious bully prick.

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3 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

It's so easy to say "Just ignore him" when you're not the one being relentlessly hounded by a malicious bully prick.

There are russian trolls here too?

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57 minutes ago, olsurfer said:

There are russian trolls here too?

Is @Wess Russian?  Nah, he's just a pretentious putz who tries to come off as the only adult in the room.  @Wess, this is Russell's thread.  As in other threads, your interjections of this nature usually derail a thread even further than what you are complaining about.  Dredging up Perry's bully behavior in this thread is way out of line; I'll leave it at that.  And by the way, you don't know me and have no business using my real name on this forum.  To me, that's a hostile act.

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Okay, I'm getting close to being able to to show the new pedal drive unit. I would have shown the design work, but it was done full size and the drawings were never complete enough to understand what was really going on. I have the major parts built now and have the pulleys, belts, bearings, and stock for the shafts and bearing retainers. It got really complicated, but to make it easy to deploy it had to be complicated. Two belts, four pulleys, five shafts, eight bearings, etc. Parts of it have been fun and I really hope that it works.

I have never post photos here. Will someone please point me to the instructions. 

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On April 10, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Russ, don't make me find more 'mud wrestling with pigs' memes! Don't you have a R2AK to concern yourself? BTW, my old sailing/surfing buddy from St Croix who now lives in Aruba just Skyped me about us doing a road trip up to Pt Townsend for the start. Looking for a 4WD rental off grid camper bus/van and thinking of taking the ferry up the Inside Passage with it. Need ground crew?

That would be super-cool. The ferry goes from Bellingham, but maybe only goes as far as Prince Rupert, or maybe that's the ferry that leaves from Port Hardy at the North end of Vancouver Island. I don't know (obviously). I don't think I need a ground crew (maybe another month to get ready instead), but I do need to get my outboard motor to Ketchikan. You might enjoy just the PT and Victoria parts. Ketchikan is a bit weird with 12000 cruise ship passengers a day (sometimes) and it's crazy expensive.

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