rch701

New to me V15

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Hello all, I recently picked up a fairly rough V15 for $200. I was searching the web for a rigging/assembly guide so I can make sure I have all the peices I need and have only found a single pdf from Vanguard which lacks detail. Is there an assembly guide for new boat owners?

Also, I plan on adding a trapeze to it for fun. Do you foresee any structural issues with that?

Thanks.

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Hmm.  I'm not that familiar with the V15 rig, but it wasn't designed to take the load of trapeze.  At one point the JY-15, a very similar boat, was available with a turbo rig that included a trapeze and spinnaker.  I'm not sure, but I think that included a completely different mast.  That was also back in the days when the standard mast was two pieces like a Laser.

In general I would say a bad idea, but hey for a $200 boat knock yourself out.

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V15 is pretty simple to rig. APS has some guides (parts listing and locations) But it looks like in the picture above you got the standing rigging setup.  Main halyard goes through the horn cleat back to the ring for a 2-1 and back down to the  horn. Jib goes through the cheek on the mast up to the block on the halyard and to the horn. Tighten the forstay as needed for wind strength. 

Outhaul goes through the grommet, around the block and back down the boom. Cunningham up and over then back down. Vang is just there. That's all there is. 

As far as the trap. The V15 uses the same mast as the FJ and it can take a trap, no reason the 15 couldn't as well.?? You may want to look at the IFJ website and see how they setup the trap.

Not designed for it and you  will need some wind if the crew is over 170lbs. Two adults hiking can flatten the boat in <17 pretty easy. 

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I'm not certain of this, but I think you might drive the mast through the deck if you trap off of it. When things are built light, they are built to be used as designed. Everything I know about the V15 is secondhand and anecdotal, though.

DRC

Edit. Be nice to her. They're really good and out of print.

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fun boat in breeze and that's about it. On a beam reach in 18+ you need some grunt to play the main. No purchase system like an FJ or 420. Pretty all round fun boat to rip around in. 

You might grenade the boat if you add a trap, especially if the boat is nice and soft you might arrow the stick through the deck. 

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Locus, Thanks for the rigging help. I raced FJs in college and this sounds identical. Two question I have are: Is the forestay really attached with loops of line to a shackle at the bow? Doesn't the jib luff cable take all of the load while sailing and the forestay stay limp? I have always thought the forestay was just to keep the mast up on land.

Everyone else, I plan to sail on trap solo. Not sure if the wire angle would allow it though. After some vector analysis I believe the resultant extra strain would be squarely on the jib luff wire. The windward shroud would unload some and the mast base is already designed for two hiking which should result in a similar compression load. I will try sailing a few times before modifying it.

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4 hours ago, rch701 said:

Two question I have are: Is the forestay really attached with loops of line to a shackle at the bow? Doesn't the jib luff cable take all of the load while sailing and the forestay stay limp?

Depends on the level of performance of the boat.  On higher performance boats with a tight rig, the jib luff wire takes the load as you describe.  Someone with V15 experience would need to answer the question, but the V15 is probably right on the edge of high/low performance.

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42 minutes ago, torrid said:

Depends on the level of performance of the boat.  On higher performance boats with a tight rig, the jib luff wire takes the load as you describe.  Someone with V15 experience would need to answer the question, but the V15 is probably right on the edge of high/low performance.

The luff wire takes the load, with a 3:1 purchase - just like in the collegiate dinghies upon which the V15 was modeled. 

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Yes the forestay is just "tied" to the stem and is there for storage only. Jib luff takes all the load when sailing. 

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I used to have one until it was stolen.

Solo trap is not going to hurt anything.
The kingpost under the mast step is wood. Eventually you have to cut an inspection port and replace it.

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Locus, Thanks for the info. I do have a spare forestay adjuster from a Hunter 140 that I may swap it out with. Just seems a little hokey pokey being simply line.

Fastyacht, Great suggestion. I will add it to my list.

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On 1/2/2018 at 6:21 PM, torrid said:

Hmm.  I'm not that familiar with the V15 rig, but it wasn't designed to take the load of trapeze.  At one point the JY-15, a very similar boat, was available with a turbo rig that included a trapeze and spinnaker.  I'm not sure, but I think that included a completely different mast.  That was also back in the days when the standard mast was two pieces like a Laser.

In general I would say a bad idea, but hey for a $200 boat knock yourself out.

the mast itself is the same section as a 420 mast. It aint going anywhere. If it does over bend, can always add some support to the vang area or spreader root. The king post may not like it, though. I do know at least one person who set their v15 up with trap., no idea how it's held up over the years, though. 

On 1/3/2018 at 9:00 AM, rch701 said:

Locus, Thanks for the rigging help. I raced FJs in college and this sounds identical. Two question I have are: Is the forestay really attached with loops of line to a shackle at the bow? Doesn't the jib luff cable take all of the load while sailing and the forestay stay limp? I have always thought the forestay was just to keep the mast up on land.

Everyone else, I plan to sail on trap solo. Not sure if the wire angle would allow it though. After some vector analysis I believe the resultant extra strain would be squarely on the jib luff wire. The windward shroud would unload some and the mast base is already designed for two hiking which should result in a similar compression load. I will try sailing a few times before modifying it.

my only concern with the trap is the narrow ass gunnel, it might be hard on your feet... but if you trap off your toes like you're supposed to it'll be fine... 

The forestay is only there to hold the mast up when you're not sailing. The reason for the string is because the wire is too short and/or to allow more range... not sure why they did that to be honest. The jib has its own wire, that i always called the jibstay but i think i made that up? anywho, to rig the boat just put the jib on the halyard, pull it up, then rig the 3:1 purchase on the jib halyard (the halyard should include a block with a becket - the primary side of the halyard (to the jib) is on one end of the block, and the secondary (rope part that you're pulling) is on the other side. IT runs from the block on the halyard, through the block on the port side of the mast, through the block on the halyard, down to the cleat. You can also run it through the cleat and has it as a 4:1 ish (lots of friction, but helps to hold it tight to get it on the cleat easier). 

edit: if you look at this picture of a 470 wiping out, you'll see their forestay is just flopping around. They secured it with a piece of shockcord to try and take some of the flop out. (once you pull the jib (jibstay) on, the permanent forestay will go slack since the mast has been pulled forward of its storage position) 13895381_784793438324722_544507976469565

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

the mast itself is the same section as a 420 mast. It aint going anywhere. If it does over bend, can always add some support to the vang area or spreader root. The king post may not like it, though. I do know at least one person who set their v15 up with trap., no idea how it's held up over the years, though. 

my only concern with the trap is the narrow ass gunnel, it might be hard on your feet... but if you trap off your toes like you're supposed to it'll be fine... 

The forestay is only there to hold the mast up when you're not sailing. The reason for the string is because the wire is too short and/or to allow more range... not sure why they did that to be honest. The jib has its own wire, that i always called the jibstay but i think i made that up? anywho, to rig the boat just put the jib on the halyard, pull it up, then rig the 3:1 purchase on the jib halyard (the halyard should include a block with a becket - the primary side of the halyard (to the jib) is on one end of the block, and the secondary (rope part that you're pulling) is on the other side. IT runs from the block on the halyard, through the block on the port side of the mast, through the block on the halyard, down to the cleat. You can also run it through the cleat and has it as a 4:1 ish (lots of friction, but helps to hold it tight to get it on the cleat easier). 

edit: if you look at this picture of a 470 wiping out, you'll see their forestay is just flopping around. They secured it with a piece of shockcord to try and take some of the flop out. (once you pull the jib (jibstay) on, the permanent forestay will go slack since the mast has been pulled forward of its storage position) 13895381_784793438324722_544507976469565

Yeah i forgot about the deck vs. keel stepped masts on the FJ/420. They all use the same mast and same rigging setup so the mast and rigging should be able to easily handle the weight of an adult. Kingpost not so sure. Also not sure about accessing the post to replace or upgrade? Metal tube with plate and the step screwed to the step?

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27 minutes ago, Locus said:

Yeah i forgot about the deck vs. keel stepped masts on the FJ/420. They all use the same mast and same rigging setup so the mast and rigging should be able to easily handle the weight of an adult. Kingpost not so sure. Also not sure about accessing the post to replace or upgrade? Metal tube with plate and the step screwed to the step?

To replace v15 kingpost you have to cut an inspection port.
I never did it to mine. Should be possible to find some people who did it.

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The mast can probably handle a trapeze. Remember, any vertical load on the mast by a trapeze is only replacing vertical load by the windward shroud. 

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Former builder and co designer here. Unsupported span of V15 mast section is questionable for more compression.

Suggest you add lowers at or about goose neck height to stabilize  lower panel. adding a clam cleat at the top of the mast for the main halyard and using a 2:1 jib halyard with clam cleat at hounds will also improve the situation. We didn't perfect these two things until after the V-15, but both are easy and improve the performance of masts with external halyards by removing the compression of the halyard fall from the equation.

Students and keen observers  may notice that the Club 420, Junior and V 15 masts  mast ends differently on port than on starboard because of the jib halyard.

The king post question can be avoided by moving the mast but full aft in the step. This transfers the compression load straight into the bulkhead where it belongs and makes the king post act like a gusset, which is what it was intended to be. The "tuning" of the V-15 evolved with the mast as far forward as you could get it. This in turn was caused by some brain box at Vanguard deciding that they could use 420 and junior length spreaders on a V-15 and make life easier on themselves. Neal Fowler and I had spent about a week testing different spreaders to get it right, and it wasn't until a bunch of fore decks had been crushed and a triggered a redesign of the mast step that I caught 6the source of the problem.  But at that point it was too late. It took the clkass about 2 years to revese the spec on the spreaders, but the tuning never reflected this.So move the mast to the back end of the step. 

When sailing the warning signal will be the mast at spreader height pumping in the direction of the jib ( forward and to leeward.)  . The mechanics of this are: the trapeze34 unloads the windward shroud because t56he angle of the crew on the trap is greater than the angle of the shroud. This means that the spreaders have nothing to push against, and are thereby not doing anything. On super stiff 505s and I 14s you can get away with this because the leeward shroud doesn't go slack, but that isn't going to happen on a gumby like the V-15 ( which were engineered to be just barely stiff enough) , so you need to add support to the lower panel to keep it in column. Keep your eyes open and you should be OK.

SHC

 

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Steve's advice sounds good.
Interesting to note that my gumby early 70s 505 does the pumping thing if I don't have the rig full tight!

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On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:53 PM, fastyacht said:

Steve's advice sounds good.
Interesting to note that my gumby early 70s 505 does the pumping thing if I don't have the rig full tight!

What mast do you have? My old 505 had and Elvestrom needlespar and pumped no matter how much tension I put. (Probably was just bending the boat) plus had to use levers so tension was hard to get.

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On 1/8/2018 at 10:34 AM, Steve Clark said:

Suggest you add lowers at or about goose neck height to stabilize  lower panel.

Just to be clear. You are suggesting adding ~3ft of lower shrouds from the gooseneck height to the deck stay fitting?

And thanks a ton! What a wealth of information. I did not know a clam cleat could hold the halyard loads. I will add the 2:1 on the jib halyard. I need a main halyard lock on my H27 too. I wonder if I can just add a clam cleat on it...

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On 1/10/2018 at 1:47 PM, Locus said:

What mast do you have? My old 505 had and Elvestrom needlespar and pumped no matter how much tension I put. (Probably was just bending the boat) plus had to use levers so tension was hard to get.

Proctor D

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3 hours ago, rch701 said:

Just to be clear. You are suggesting adding ~3ft of lower shrouds from the gooseneck height to the deck stay fitting?

And thanks a ton! What a wealth of information. I did not know a clam cleat could hold the halyard loads. I will add the 2:1 on the jib halyard. I need a main halyard lock on my H27 too. I wonder if I can just add a clam cleat on it...

Take a look at canoes. Quite a few have exactly what Steve is mentioning. This is because of the deck stepped mast.

BTW when I got my V15, it still had the short spreaders on it--but only on one side! This was in 2004! Yes, it was strange the mast and the sailing was different port to stbd until I measured and figured out what was going on.

You should definitely be sure to check the spreader lengths and use the longer approved lengths. The V15 class page had all this available. I assume it still exists.

 

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14 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

You should definitely be sure to check the spreader lengths

I will check the length. I saw the pictures on the IC boats. Lower shrouds should be an easy add.

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I'd avoid doing anything about the gusset/kingpost unless a problem starts to show up. Obviously you don't want to cut a hole on centerline if you do---as that is the main load bearer (the transverse bhd at centerline.)
 

Moving the mast butt aft is a good idea--thanks to Steve for that. I never found out about that one until now!

 

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Take a look at canoes. Quite a few have exactly what Steve is mentioning. This is because of the deck stepped mast.

BTW when I got my V15, it still had the short spreaders on it--but only on one side! This was in 2004! Yes, it was strange the mast and the sailing was different port to stbd until I measured and figured out what was going on.

You should definitely be sure to check the spreader lengths and use the longer approved lengths. The V15 class page had all this available. I assume it still exists.

 

Follow-up question for general info....

Those new short stays could spectra/whatever and just snug enough to limit major movement and not actively interfere with mast tuning? 

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