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At the beginning, Bavaria (Yellow) and Audi (Blue) are both on port tack, pretty much dead square, with foredeck hands at the mast, preparatory to either gybing or dousing the spinnaker, getting towards the leeward mark (visible @60).

@11 Y is give way, clear astern (rule 12).

@12 Overlap, Y is right of way, overlapped to leeward (rule 11), must give B room to keep clear (rule 15)).

[@16 Y’s pole comes off the mast. No effect on obligations or entitlements of boats.]

[@18 Umpires display Yellow Flag:  Penalise Yellow:  that would be rule 15.  No effect on immediate obligations or entitlements of boats]

@20.5 B begins to round down, onto a collision course with Y.  B is by the lee, with boom and mainsail out on her starboard side, still on Port tack (Definitions:  Leeward and Windward, Tack, Starboard or Port), same as Y, Y still to leeward of B, B still required to keep clear of Y (rule 11).

@21 Y begins to round up, possibly to avoid B, or possibly uncontrolled.

@22 Y’s boom goes in the water, slows her round up, B continues to round down.

@23, B’s boom still out on her starboard side, B still on port tack.

@23.5 B’s boom starts to fall across the boat into a gybe.

@24, Gybe complete, B is right of way, starboard tack, must give Y room to keep clear (rule 15).

Between @23.5 and @24.5, there is contact.

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Audi is ahead of Bavaria. At about 12sec, Bavaria becomes overlapped to leeward, giving room for RRS15. Audi, as the windward, give way boat, at 20 sec, turns uncontrollably directly in front of Bavaria. Bavaria, turns to windward, rounding up behind Audi to avoid contact. One could argue that Bavaria lost control right after Audi, if that's true, ok; but it doesn't change the rules. Had Bavaria not changed course when she did, there would have been much more damage with a full on T-bone. A crash gybe to do with Audi, was not practical. Audi broke RRS 11, Bavaria breaks RRS 14, but is not penalized as, from the time that is was clear that Audi wasn't keeping clear, bavaria did everything she could to avoid contact.

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15 minutes ago, Brass said:

Rule 14 infringement by the Audi-boat. 
Category C = -1 point in knock-out stage.

Would it be possible to conclude that both boats, under the circumstances, did everything possible to avoid contact (which proved to be unavoidable) so no rule 14 violation? 

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55 minutes ago, Brass said:

[@18 Umpires display Yellow Flag:  Penalise Yellow:  that would be rule 15.  No effect on immediate obligations or entitlements of boats]

Can you go into this a bit more, Brass? I didn't see any avoiding action by Blue, can I just assume the umpire probably had a better view than me?

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Always appreciate that the rules only discuss the turning of a boats course.  There is nothing in there about the "cause" of why the boat is turning.  Be clear on this thought as you think about evaluating the situation.

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20 minutes ago, fucket said:

 

Can you go into this a bit more, Brass? I didn't see any avoiding action by Blue, can I just assume the umpire probably had a better view than me?

It looks like Bavaria rolls to port at around 14 and Audi may have changed course a bit at 15-16 to avoid. I'm guessing that's what generated the flag.

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28 minutes ago, fucket said:
1 hour ago, Brass said:

[@18 Umpires display Yellow Flag:  Penalise Yellow:  that would be rule 15.  No effect on immediate obligations or entitlements of boats]

Can you go into this a bit more, Brass? I didn't see any avoiding action by Blue, can I just assume the umpire probably had a better view than me?

Just repeating what's on Jos Spykerman's Facebook posts.

Very 'European ' decision on failing to give room to keep clear without contact, but agree Umps prolly had a better view.

But note heavy conditions and high speeds. 

Judging by the speed the ump boat came out of the gap, I'd guess the umps had the pants scared off them, and that was enough to convince them there wasn't room.

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Thanks everyone for the clear explanation.  That all helped to understand it all much better.

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10 hours ago, SailChiTown said:

In the US, we find it very difficult to penalize the ROW boat for 15, without contact. I'm not saying it never happens, I've only seen it once in 60 events

Within the words of the definition of room, it's quite easy:  the give way boat keeps clear, acting promptly, but only by an unseamanlike act.

I can't see any unseamanlike action by Audi up to the time of the whistle:  maybe the umps did.

I get the impression that thee European umps are looking for the right of way boat to give 'ample room and opportunity', which ain't in the rules.

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12 hours ago, Brass said:

At the beginning, Bavaria (Yellow) and Audi (Blue) are both on port tack, pretty much dead square, with foredeck hands at the mast, preparatory to either gybing or dousing the spinnaker, getting towards the leeward mark (visible @60).

@11 Y is give way, clear astern (rule 12).

@12 Overlap, Y is right of way, overlapped to leeward (rule 11), must give B room to keep clear (rule 15)).

[@16 Y’s pole comes off the mast. No effect on obligations or entitlements of boats.]

[@18 Umpires display Yellow Flag:  Penalise Yellow:  that would be rule 15.  No effect on immediate obligations or entitlements of boats]

@20.5 B begins to round down, onto a collision course with Y.  B is by the lee, with boom and mainsail out on her starboard side, still on Port tack (Definitions:  Leeward and Windward, Tack, Starboard or Port), same as Y, Y still to leeward of B, B still required to keep clear of Y (rule 11).

@21 Y begins to round up, possibly to avoid B, or possibly uncontrolled.

@22 Y’s boom goes in the water, slows her round up, B continues to round down.

@23, B’s boom still out on her starboard side, B still on port tack.

@23.5 B’s boom starts to fall across the boat into a gybe.

@24, Gybe complete, B is right of way, starboard tack, must give Y room to keep clear (rule 15).

Between @23.5 and @24.5, there is contact.

Add, for completeness

After @20.5, Y would have reasonable apprehension of collision (Case 50), and changed course;  B did not keep clear of Y:  B broke rule 11 and 14.

Apparently neither boat protested the incident to the umpires at the time.  A later jury protest decided that B broke rule 14 and penalised her.

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Looks like the Yellow flag, that came out with a whistle at 18 sec.  indicating Bavaria shall take a penalty (C5.2) , was possibly due to Rule 15 violation resulting from her failure to allow Audi time to keep clear after acquiring right of way at somewhere around 10-11 seconds and rolled to windward as she sailed through Audi's stern wake. Should she have known not to establish the overlap so close to leeward of Audi under those conditions?

At 18 sec Audi broaches, altering course to Leeward  and fails to keep clear of Bavaria violating rule 11, remaining on port gybe until 24-25 sec. at which time Bavaria turns to port, possibly attempting to avoid contact. Contact was made.

Audi, on starboard from 25 sec violates rule 15 so Bavaria's violation of rule 10 is exonerated, but what about the yellow flag??? Does Bavaria still have to take her penalty and finish the race to win or is the race abandoned at this point? 

 

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12 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Nevermind the analysis, that was amazing!  :)

Yeah, shit hit the fan!

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I looked through the rules and didn't find anything covering Partially Failed Attempt to Provide Spinnaker (While Aloft) to Competitor's Boat, which is what the Bavaria clearly committed.  Must be somewhere in the SI's. 

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Forgetting about the rules nobody did anything like start cutting spinnaker sheets and halyards to clear the boats.  With some quick action could have probably saved the mast.  All I saw was a lot of looking around and no decisive action.

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14 hours ago, fucket said:

 

Can you go into this a bit more, Brass? I didn't see any avoiding action by Blue, can I just assume the umpire probably had a better view than me?

are you sure there is no contact @ 14 that caused the flag from the umpires?

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15 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Would it be possible to conclude that both boats, under the circumstances, did everything possible to avoid contact (which proved to be unavoidable) so no rule 14 violation? 

No, the give boat always loses on RRS 14.

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20 minutes ago, robalex117 said:

Forgetting about the rules nobody did anything like start cutting spinnaker sheets and halyards to clear the boats.  With some quick action could have probably saved the mast.  All I saw was a lot of looking around and no decisive action.

 

Spinny wrap starts at 0:29, Audi rig down at 0:51.  So theoretically enough time to do something. Sheets were blown, I assume judging by the distance between the boats. But how do you cut a halyard, when the foul is near the top?

It was Bavaria's continued downwind course that dragged Audi sideways till the mast gave. Perhaps she tried to come up but couldn't. No way to dump main with that much breeze on. 

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3 hours ago, Brass said:

Within the words of the definition of room, it's quite easy:  the give way boat keeps clear, acting promptly, but only by an unseamanlike act.

In match racing, very little is considered unseamanlike...they toss those boats around so quick.

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3 hours ago, ILYB-Todd said:

Audi, on starboard from 25 sec violates rule 15 so Bavaria's violation of rule 10 is exonerated, but what about the yellow flag??? Does Bavaria still have to take her penalty and finish the race to win or is the race abandoned at this point? 

 

In match racing rules, you haven't completed your gybe until your sail mostly fills on the other board. In this case, the sail never filled. Audi never established Starboard, still give under 13 until well after contact.

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25 minutes ago, SailChiTown said:

In match racing, very little is considered unseamanlike...they toss those boats around so quick.

With spinnakers up there doesn't look to be a seamanlike out for Y to avoid B's broach imo. Draping their kite across B's forestay is not seamanlike. Y started rounding up approximately the same time as B started into their broach. 

Cutting Y's halyard may have saved B's mast. 

Both boats not enough sheet on in the puff. Easier said..

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7 minutes ago, paris said:

i think that if i was in Y's position, I would go for the Chinese jibe too.... wouldn't you?

If you could but they appeared to be rounding up almost simultaneously. Both boats were out of control. 

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well... if you end up in this place, there is no escape to windward.....

and i don't see the stick being pulled to starboard....  :-)

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1 hour ago, robalex117 said:

Forgetting about the rules nobody did anything like start cutting spinnaker sheets and halyards to clear the boats.  With some quick action could have probably saved the mast.  All I saw was a lot of looking around and no decisive action.

I kept thinking, ummm....anyone have a knife?   Samari douse on that kite halyard would've saved a lot of drama (not to mention potential injury)

Edited by BeerDidClam
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robalex117 Said.

Forgetting about the rules nobody did anything like start cutting spinnaker sheets and halyards to clear the boats.  With some quick action could have probably saved the mast.  All I saw was a lot of looking around and no decisive action.

I was thinking the same thing,,, start cutting lines to save the rigs. For about who done it.

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15 hours ago, SailChiTown said:

In the US, we find it very difficult to penalize the ROW boat for 15, without contact. I'm not saying it never happens, I've only seen it once in 60 events

I think there was spinnaker to backstay contact @14. Hard to tell from the video, but the umps were in the right spot to see if there were. You can hear yelling and see the driver on B throw a flag right at that point (if you play the video at slower speed you can see him under the jib on Y)

@21 the Y round up is most certainly uncontrolled - unless tillers work opposite on Bavaria boats

 

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28 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Bullshit, when B starts to round down, you see the helmsman on Y turn the boat to port and initiates his own broach to try and stay clear. 

You are right. I mistook his leg for the tiller. Sorry

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3 hours ago, paris said:

i think that if i was in Y's position, I would go for the Chinese jibe too.... wouldn't you?

and slam Y mainbom into the other boat?

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9 hours ago, Wheezer said:

robalex117 Said.

Forgetting about the rules nobody did anything like start cutting spinnaker sheets and halyards to clear the boats.  With some quick action could have probably saved the mast.  All I saw was a lot of looking around and no decisive action.

I was thinking the same thing,,, start cutting lines to save the rigs. For about who done it.

Yep, but don't blame the foredeck, likely they couldn't reach them. Someone in Bavaria's cockpit needed to cut the sheets and halyard, would have saved Audi's rig for maybe the cost of a spinnaker pole.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

Yep, but don't blame the foredeck,

Rule 1. Always blame the foredeck.

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On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 7:46 PM, Brass said:

Within the words of the definition of room, it's quite easy:  the give way boat keeps clear, acting promptly, but only by an unseamanlike act.

I can't see any unseamanlike action by Audi up to the time of the whistle:  maybe the umps did.

I get the impression that thee European umps are looking for the right of way boat to give 'ample room and opportunity', which ain't in the rules.

Partly right Brass - "Room" is actually a definition but you are right about the 'opportunity' bit

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Last 2 boats in the demolition derby? JFC....this all went south 45 seconds before the video started....

 

on edit: Bavaria 1 minute to 45 seconds earlier could of easily hardened up,  covered and rolled over them them as they struggled with the sail set...really bad decision for a overtaking boat to go into a position that dramatically limits your escape options... If the boats were too high on the finish line and trying to avoid another last minute gybe to finish then Audi was in a winning position,  Bavaria had already lost this race 3 minutes ago...does that make sense?

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On 1/10/2018 at 12:46 PM, Brass said:

Within the words of the definition of room, it's quite easy:  the give way boat keeps clear, acting promptly, but only by an unseamanlike act.

I can't see any unseamanlike action by Audi up to the time of the whistle:  maybe the umps did.

I get the impression that thee European umps are looking for the right of way boat to give 'ample room and opportunity', which ain't in the rules.

Room is also dependent of the conditions, not sure that overtaking so close is enough room as the 2 boats were clearly sailing on the edge.

Quote
Room
 
The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

 

When DDW on the edge with the kite up some zigzaging is to be expected and even without a broach there wasn't much room between the 2 to avoid the risk of contact.

 

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Who cares about the rules, they're both fucked and I guess did no more racing that day.

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On 1/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, BeerDidClam said:

I kept thinking, ummm....anyone have a knife?   Samari douse on that kite halyard would've saved a lot of drama (not to mention potential injury)

Plus one on your and others comments about not cutting halyards and sheets or letting them run (if they didn't... which they don't appear to have).  WTF, do they not carry knives at this level or for this type of sailing? They all just sat there looking at the mess for quite some time.  WTF??

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Room is also dependent of the conditions, not sure that overtaking so close is enough room as the 2 boats were clearly sailing on the edge.

 

When DDW on the edge with the kite up some zigzaging is to be expected and even without a broach there wasn't much room between the 2 to avoid the risk of contact.

 

Yeah, but this was a World Match Racing Tour event, not a Wednesday night PHRF race. I think those guys are calibrated differently on how much room is enough...

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:37 AM, SailChiTown said:

In match racing rules, you haven't completed your gybe until your sail mostly fills on the other board. In this case, the sail never filled. Audi never established Starboard, still give under 13 until well after contact.

OMG. One rule that did not apply at any time in this incident is rule 13.  Going downwind, you are either on port gybe or starboard gybe.  Rule 13 only applies to tacking. 

At the time of collision, PC can try and establish if Audi was on starboard.  If so, she broke 15 if not she broke 11. Either way she breaks 14.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

OMG. One rule that did not apply at any time in this incident is rule 13.  Going downwind, you are either on port gybe or starboard gybe.  Rule 13 only applies to tacking. 

At the time of collision, PC can try and establish if Audi was on starboard.  If so, she broke 15 if not she broke 11. Either way she breaks 14.

 

Best go read the match racing rules - there are some differences.

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15 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Yeah, but this was a World Match Racing Tour event

Strictly no, it was a Match Race Super League event. WMRT is now in 32 foot cats.

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11 hours ago, rogerfal said:

 

Best go read the match racing rules - there are some differences.

Duh.  I am a stupid  #@$%  They are match racing. This will teach me to keep away from threads about rules. My apologies to chitown.

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Nah better to read and learn. When I first saw that I went what but then hang on - Match racing! Doh!

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